De Vere and Verley, Verlye

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Graham Ward

De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av Graham Ward » 25 nov 2007 21:07:31

Does anyone have any specific knowledge of the origins and changes to
surnames from the Medieval to the Modern periods? I have read the usual
surname books, but my specific question is, is it just a coincidence that a
family in a parish in the 15th century is called de Vere or might they be
related to a 17th century family variously spelled as Vyrlye, Verlie, Verly
etc. in the same parish. Was this an Anglicisation of the name?

Thanks

Graham

gbh

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av gbh » 25 nov 2007 23:27:20

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:

On Nov 25, 12:07 pm, "Graham Ward" <graham.w...@gmx.net> wrote:
is it just a coincidence that a
family in a parish in the 15th century is called de Vere or might they be
related to a 17th century family variously spelled as Vyrlye, Verlie, Verly
etc. in the same parish.

Yes, it is just a coincidence.

Was this an Anglicisation of the name?

No. English -ley/-ly names almost invariably derive from Anglo-Saxon
place names. -lega (pronounced 'leya') was AS for a field. (Mattingly,
Chudlegh, Knightley, Marley as well as Lee and Leigh all come from
this source) The first part derives from a person's name (Chudlegh -
Chuda's field) or description (Knightley knight's field or field of
knights - perhaps a jousting ground) or from a characteristic of the
field (Marley, where mar is a swamp - marshy field). Perhaps ver- is
from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

Just a guess

gbh

gbh

Gjest

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2007 23:39:03

On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, gbh <pis...@slices.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:
Perhaps ver- is
from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Yes, it would be a little odd.

Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

of course the same f to v drift happened with many Welsh/British words
as well (e.g. afon becomes Avon).

taf

Renia

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av Renia » 26 nov 2007 00:10:58

gbh wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:


On Nov 25, 12:07 pm, "Graham Ward" <graham.w...@gmx.net> wrote:

is it just a coincidence that a
family in a parish in the 15th century is called de Vere or might they be
related to a 17th century family variously spelled as Vyrlye, Verlie, Verly
etc. in the same parish.

Yes, it is just a coincidence.


Was this an Anglicisation of the name?

No. English -ley/-ly names almost invariably derive from Anglo-Saxon
place names. -lega (pronounced 'leya') was AS for a field. (Mattingly,
Chudlegh, Knightley, Marley as well as Lee and Leigh all come from
this source) The first part derives from a person's name (Chudlegh -
Chuda's field) or description (Knightley knight's field or field of
knights - perhaps a jousting ground) or from a characteristic of the
field (Marley, where mar is a swamp - marshy field). Perhaps ver- is

from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

It might seem so, but after the Norman Conquest, quite a few French
words, name and places became Anglicized (however you want to phrase it).


Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

Just a guess

gbh

gbh

gbh

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av gbh » 26 nov 2007 16:00:06

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:37:39 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:

On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, gbh <pis...@slices.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:
Perhaps ver- is
from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Yes, it would be a little odd.

Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

of course the same f to v drift happened with many Welsh/British words
as well (e.g. afon becomes Avon).


Not really comparable.

The Welsh sound [v] has always been written as <f> (which means they
have to use <ff> to represent the sound [f] ). The change in spelling
from Welsh <afon> to English <avon> does not reflect a sound change,
just that the English have changed the spelling to conform to English
principles of pronunciation.

On the other hand, the southern English development of [f] to [v] and
[s] to [z] in the Middle Ages was a sound change, incidentally
paralleled by developments across the water, where the Dutch likewise
say "vat" (vs. German "Fass") and "zilver".

gbh

Renia

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av Renia » 26 nov 2007 16:24:48

gbh wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:37:39 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:


On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, gbh <pis...@slices.com> wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:

Perhaps ver- is

from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Yes, it would be a little odd.


Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

of course the same f to v drift happened with many Welsh/British words
as well (e.g. afon becomes Avon).



Not really comparable.

The Welsh sound [v] has always been written as <f> (which means they
have to use <ff> to represent the sound [f] ). The change in spelling
from Welsh <afon> to English <avon> does not reflect a sound change,
just that the English have changed the spelling to conform to English
principles of pronunciation.

On the other hand, the southern English development of [f] to [v] and
[s] to [z] in the Middle Ages was a sound change, incidentally
paralleled by developments across the water, where the Dutch likewise
say "vat" (vs. German "Fass") and "zilver".

Actually, they say "zilber", which brings us back to the change from B to V.

gbh

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av gbh » 26 nov 2007 17:17:43

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:24:48 +0200, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
wrote:

gbh wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:37:39 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:


On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, gbh <pis...@slices.com> wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:

Perhaps ver- is

from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Yes, it would be a little odd.


Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

of course the same f to v drift happened with many Welsh/British words
as well (e.g. afon becomes Avon).



Not really comparable.

The Welsh sound [v] has always been written as <f> (which means they
have to use <ff> to represent the sound [f] ). The change in spelling
from Welsh <afon> to English <avon> does not reflect a sound change,
just that the English have changed the spelling to conform to English
principles of pronunciation.

On the other hand, the southern English development of [f] to [v] and
[s] to [z] in the Middle Ages was a sound change, incidentally
paralleled by developments across the water, where the Dutch likewise
say "vat" (vs. German "Fass") and "zilver".

Actually, they say "zilber", which brings us back to the change from B to V.


Aren't you thinking of German "Silber"? The Dutch word is "zilver". It
was German that changed the Germanic sound from [v] to [b], as in
geben, leben, sieben, Weib.

gbh

Renia

Re: De Vere and Verley, Verlye

Legg inn av Renia » 26 nov 2007 17:35:52

gbh wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:24:48 +0200, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
wrote:


gbh wrote:


On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:37:39 -0800 (PST), taf@clearwire.net wrote:



On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, gbh <pis...@slices.com> wrote:


On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:38:32 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:


Perhaps ver- is

from vert = green, hence green field.

A combination of a French adjective and an Anglo-Saxon noun strikes me
as odd.

Yes, it would be a little odd.



Perhaps Verly shows a southern variant of the word "fern". Place-names
and surnames deriving from that compound occur in many forms:
Fernley, Farnley, Farleigh, Farley.

The change from f to v happened in counties along the south coast. A
couple of words found their way into the standard language: vixen
(from fox) and vat.

of course the same f to v drift happened with many Welsh/British words
as well (e.g. afon becomes Avon).



Not really comparable.

The Welsh sound [v] has always been written as <f> (which means they
have to use <ff> to represent the sound [f] ). The change in spelling
from Welsh <afon> to English <avon> does not reflect a sound change,
just that the English have changed the spelling to conform to English
principles of pronunciation.

On the other hand, the southern English development of [f] to [v] and
[s] to [z] in the Middle Ages was a sound change, incidentally
paralleled by developments across the water, where the Dutch likewise
say "vat" (vs. German "Fass") and "zilver".

Actually, they say "zilber", which brings us back to the change from B to V.



Aren't you thinking of German "Silber"? The Dutch word is "zilver". It
was German that changed the Germanic sound from [v] to [b], as in
geben, leben, sieben, Weib.

Yes, the German word is "Silber" but the pronounce it "zilber", not
"zilver".

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