Hi all,
Sir John Godard, born about 1346, knight of the shire for Yorkshire in
1386, escheator for Yorkshire 1387 and 1390 and one of the deponents
in the Scrope - Grosvenor controversy. He died about 1393. [1]
He married Constance, daughter of Thomas de Sutton of Holderness and
widow of Peter de Mauley VI and had two sons, his heir Sir John, Henry
who d.s.p. and three daughters, Agnes, who married Brian Stapleton,
Maud, who married Robert Wadesley and Margaret, who married Thomas
Ughtred. His son Sir John died in 1420, leaving a son John, aged 2,
who died in 1430 without issue.
In 1432, the king ordered that the lands of John Godard were to be
divided between "Agnes late the wife of Brian Stapilton knight, one of
the sisters of John Godard 'chivaler', who held of Henry V. in chief,
Robert Waddesley esquire who has taken to wife Maud the second sister
of the said John, and Robert Ughtred 'chivaler' son of Margaret the
third sister of the said John, the kinsfolk and heirs of John Godard
(the son and heir of the said John Godard 'chivaler') who lately died
a minor in the king's ward." [2]
All of this is known and part of the historical record. What remains
unknown about the first Sir John Godard are his parentage and place of
birth.
The only records that I can find, contain conflicting statements. N.
Harris Nicolas states that "The family of Godard was of some antiquity
in Yorkshire ....the names of his parents have not been discovered".
[1]
Blomefield writing on the Manor of Denver's or Godard's in Walpole,
Norfolk states that, "From the Denvers it came by marriage to the
Godards, who quartered the arms of Denvers, of whom see in Tyrington;
of this family was Sir John Godard, governour of Loviers, in Normandy,
in the 6th of Henry V, under the Duke of Clarence, on whose death in
the 9th of Henry VI. several lands in Lincolnshire, &c. came to his
son and heir John, a minor who dying without issue, Agnes (wife of Sir
Brian Stapleton,) then the wife of Robert Wadesley, Esq. of Yorkshire,
and Sir Robert Ughtred were his cousins and next heirs." [3]
Neither of these writers give any source for their statements.
So, Sir John Godard was either of an old Yorkshire family or an old
Norfolk family.
Does anyone have any evidence on which statement might be true?
Regards,
John
[1] The Controversy Between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert
Grosvenor, Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas, London, 1832, pp 389-90
[2] Calendar of Fine Rolls, Henry VI, 1430 - 1437, HMSO, London, 1936,
pp 91-2
[3] An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk,
Francis Blomefield & Charles Parkin, Vol IX, London, 1808, p 110
Sir John Godard
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Ian Goddard
Re: Sir John Godard
John Watson wrote:
1; the Scrope suggestion. That points to Horton-in-Ribblesdale (modern
spelling). The WR Subisidy rolls
(http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Mi ... Index.html)
don't have any Goddards in Horton, nor anyone else resident who looks
likely to have but the escheators to any effort. ISTM the individuals
referred to by Nicholas may have been absentee landlords and that we
should look elsewhere for them.
2; distribution of the Goddard surname. A few years ago it was possible
to search IGI in such a way as to get hits based on surname only for a
given timespan by county (you can't do that now!). I used this to draw
up a distribution map for the Goddard name during the last 40 years of
the C16th, i.e. the start of the regular keeping of parish registers.
It showed five main clusters. One was London which might simply be the
Great Wen exerting its usual magnetic effect. The other four clusters
were "Wessex" (Hants, Berks, Wilts), East Anglia (Norfolk and Suffolk),
Leicestershire and Yorkshire. This methodology has its flaws
(eliminating member-submitted records would have been a distinct
improvement) but it does eliminate all the population movements of the
Industrial Revolution which will have blurred the earlier distribution.
My conclusion is that the surname originated on a number of occasions.
Interestingly, when I had some correspondence a couple of years ago
with the Goddard yDNA project they also had four clusters.
Looking at the Yorkshire cluster in more detail it comprised the
Sheffield area and the parishes of Almondbury and Kirkburton (manorial
records also show there were Goddards in the adjacent parish of Emley
but their early records don't survive).
3; Yorkshire origin. If you search A2A for John Godard and Thomas
Godard you will find a number of charters mentioning the names, mostly
as witnesses from the parish of Snaith, mostly locating them at Cowick.
This extend from the late C13th to the mid C14th naming at least two
Thomases and two Johns of at least three generations in addition to
naming the widow of one of the Johns as Eva. The first records are of
"Thomas son of Godard" so we can see the name originating and becoming
established. Although I can find nothing to establish a direct
connection not only is Cowick just across the Aire from the Stapleton
seat at Carleton, they were actually in the same parish.
In the 1360s A2A has a couple of references to a William Godard near
Rotherham. There are very few Godards in the Subsidy rolls. Two are a
mother and daughter in Leeds and the other is a Wiliam Godard (who I
surmise to have been the son of the one in the 1360 records) also near
Rotherham. Fortunatelyfor them but not for us the inhabitants of Cowick
seemt to have escaped the tax collectors so I can't find out whether
there were still Godards there. from And then in the early C15th century
there is a John (or possibly 2 generations, search A2A with and without
the double d) in Sheffield and one in a list of land holders in Emley
and Skelmanthorpe. So there does seem to have been some sort of trail
connecting Cowick to the early parish register occurrences.
To be continued
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
Hi all,
Sir John Godard, born about 1346, knight of the shire for Yorkshire in
1386, escheator for Yorkshire 1387 and 1390 and one of the deponents
in the Scrope - Grosvenor controversy. He died about 1393. [1]
He married Constance, daughter of Thomas de Sutton of Holderness and
widow of Peter de Mauley VI and had two sons, his heir Sir John, Henry
who d.s.p. and three daughters, Agnes, who married Brian Stapleton,
Maud, who married Robert Wadesley and Margaret, who married Thomas
Ughtred. His son Sir John died in 1420, leaving a son John, aged 2,
who died in 1430 without issue.
In 1432, the king ordered that the lands of John Godard were to be
divided between "Agnes late the wife of Brian Stapilton knight, one of
the sisters of John Godard 'chivaler', who held of Henry V. in chief,
Robert Waddesley esquire who has taken to wife Maud the second sister
of the said John, and Robert Ughtred 'chivaler' son of Margaret the
third sister of the said John, the kinsfolk and heirs of John Godard
(the son and heir of the said John Godard 'chivaler') who lately died
a minor in the king's ward." [2]
All of this is known and part of the historical record. What remains
unknown about the first Sir John Godard are his parentage and place of
birth.
The only records that I can find, contain conflicting statements. N.
Harris Nicolas states that "The family of Godard was of some antiquity
in Yorkshire ....the names of his parents have not been discovered".
[1]
Blomefield writing on the Manor of Denver's or Godard's in Walpole,
Norfolk states that, "From the Denvers it came by marriage to the
Godards, who quartered the arms of Denvers, of whom see in Tyrington;
of this family was Sir John Godard, governour of Loviers, in Normandy,
in the 6th of Henry V, under the Duke of Clarence, on whose death in
the 9th of Henry VI. several lands in Lincolnshire, &c. came to his
son and heir John, a minor who dying without issue, Agnes (wife of Sir
Brian Stapleton,) then the wife of Robert Wadesley, Esq. of Yorkshire,
and Sir Robert Ughtred were his cousins and next heirs." [3]
Neither of these writers give any source for their statements.
So, Sir John Godard was either of an old Yorkshire family or an old
Norfolk family.
Does anyone have any evidence on which statement might be true?
Regards,
John
[1] The Controversy Between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert
Grosvenor, Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas, London, 1832, pp 389-90
[2] Calendar of Fine Rolls, Henry VI, 1430 - 1437, HMSO, London, 1936,
pp 91-2
[3] An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk,
Francis Blomefield & Charles Parkin, Vol IX, London, 1808, p 110
1; the Scrope suggestion. That points to Horton-in-Ribblesdale (modern
spelling). The WR Subisidy rolls
(http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Mi ... Index.html)
don't have any Goddards in Horton, nor anyone else resident who looks
likely to have but the escheators to any effort. ISTM the individuals
referred to by Nicholas may have been absentee landlords and that we
should look elsewhere for them.
2; distribution of the Goddard surname. A few years ago it was possible
to search IGI in such a way as to get hits based on surname only for a
given timespan by county (you can't do that now!). I used this to draw
up a distribution map for the Goddard name during the last 40 years of
the C16th, i.e. the start of the regular keeping of parish registers.
It showed five main clusters. One was London which might simply be the
Great Wen exerting its usual magnetic effect. The other four clusters
were "Wessex" (Hants, Berks, Wilts), East Anglia (Norfolk and Suffolk),
Leicestershire and Yorkshire. This methodology has its flaws
(eliminating member-submitted records would have been a distinct
improvement) but it does eliminate all the population movements of the
Industrial Revolution which will have blurred the earlier distribution.
My conclusion is that the surname originated on a number of occasions.
Interestingly, when I had some correspondence a couple of years ago
with the Goddard yDNA project they also had four clusters.
Looking at the Yorkshire cluster in more detail it comprised the
Sheffield area and the parishes of Almondbury and Kirkburton (manorial
records also show there were Goddards in the adjacent parish of Emley
but their early records don't survive).
3; Yorkshire origin. If you search A2A for John Godard and Thomas
Godard you will find a number of charters mentioning the names, mostly
as witnesses from the parish of Snaith, mostly locating them at Cowick.
This extend from the late C13th to the mid C14th naming at least two
Thomases and two Johns of at least three generations in addition to
naming the widow of one of the Johns as Eva. The first records are of
"Thomas son of Godard" so we can see the name originating and becoming
established. Although I can find nothing to establish a direct
connection not only is Cowick just across the Aire from the Stapleton
seat at Carleton, they were actually in the same parish.
In the 1360s A2A has a couple of references to a William Godard near
Rotherham. There are very few Godards in the Subsidy rolls. Two are a
mother and daughter in Leeds and the other is a Wiliam Godard (who I
surmise to have been the son of the one in the 1360 records) also near
Rotherham. Fortunatelyfor them but not for us the inhabitants of Cowick
seemt to have escaped the tax collectors so I can't find out whether
there were still Godards there. from And then in the early C15th century
there is a John (or possibly 2 generations, search A2A with and without
the double d) in Sheffield and one in a list of land holders in Emley
and Skelmanthorpe. So there does seem to have been some sort of trail
connecting Cowick to the early parish register occurrences.
To be continued
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
-
Ian Goddard
Re: Sir John Godard continued
Ian Goddard wrote:
4. Other Yorkshire sources. The University of Iowa site at
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/ has a number of useful links. One is a
search engine to the Calendar of Patent Rolls which traces Sir John's
public life from his marriage to Constance onwards and also reveals that
there were also two generations of contemporary Sir John Godards in Kent.
The Iowa site also has a number of digitized Surtees publications
including wills. One of these (reference not to hand) includes a will
of Henry Percy who died at Spofforth in the early 1350s in which one of
the witnesses (and beneficiary in that his debts were remitted) was a
William Godard. It would be useful to know more about him. Presumably
he held some position in the Percy retinue. At the time of the will the
Sir John-to-be would have been a young child. Was he William's child?
It seems the sort of background from which he could have come. And what
was this William's ancestry?
There are one or two other scattered references. There was at least one
other C14th will mentioning a Godard, somewhere around Kirby Moorside
IIRC and there was also a Godard who was made a freeman of York in the
C14th.
5. Possible Cheshire links. I came across another digitised book which
included Sir John's arms and noted that the same arms had been born by a
Sir Hugh Godard who appears to have been a Knight of the Shire for
Cheshire. A2A also has references to a Rose, widow of John Godard
(Rylands charters RYCH/1412&3) in the context of Storeton, Tranmere etc.
so it seems possible that there was an early Godard family associated
with Cheshire who escaped my later survey.
In short it seems likely that the Godard surname arose a number of
times. One of these times can clearly be documented in Yorkshire
although it can't be genealogically connected to Sir John. There
appears to have been another in Cheshire which may have been connected.
I have nothing to say that the other families from my survey were
connected either with these or with each other.
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
4. Other Yorkshire sources. The University of Iowa site at
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/ has a number of useful links. One is a
search engine to the Calendar of Patent Rolls which traces Sir John's
public life from his marriage to Constance onwards and also reveals that
there were also two generations of contemporary Sir John Godards in Kent.
The Iowa site also has a number of digitized Surtees publications
including wills. One of these (reference not to hand) includes a will
of Henry Percy who died at Spofforth in the early 1350s in which one of
the witnesses (and beneficiary in that his debts were remitted) was a
William Godard. It would be useful to know more about him. Presumably
he held some position in the Percy retinue. At the time of the will the
Sir John-to-be would have been a young child. Was he William's child?
It seems the sort of background from which he could have come. And what
was this William's ancestry?
There are one or two other scattered references. There was at least one
other C14th will mentioning a Godard, somewhere around Kirby Moorside
IIRC and there was also a Godard who was made a freeman of York in the
C14th.
5. Possible Cheshire links. I came across another digitised book which
included Sir John's arms and noted that the same arms had been born by a
Sir Hugh Godard who appears to have been a Knight of the Shire for
Cheshire. A2A also has references to a Rose, widow of John Godard
(Rylands charters RYCH/1412&3) in the context of Storeton, Tranmere etc.
so it seems possible that there was an early Godard family associated
with Cheshire who escaped my later survey.
In short it seems likely that the Godard surname arose a number of
times. One of these times can clearly be documented in Yorkshire
although it can't be genealogically connected to Sir John. There
appears to have been another in Cheshire which may have been connected.
I have nothing to say that the other families from my survey were
connected either with these or with each other.
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
-
John Watson
Re: Sir John Godard continued
On Nov 22, 10:11 pm, Ian Goddard <godda...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Ian,
Thanks for sharing your Godard researches. I guess we will never know
the true origin of Sir John.
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard wrote:
4. Other Yorkshire sources. The University of Iowa site athttp://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/has a number of useful links. One is a
search engine to the Calendar of Patent Rolls which traces Sir John's
public life from his marriage to Constance onwards and also reveals that
there were also two generations of contemporary Sir John Godards in Kent.
The Iowa site also has a number of digitized Surtees publications
including wills. One of these (reference not to hand) includes a will
of Henry Percy who died at Spofforth in the early 1350s in which one of
the witnesses (and beneficiary in that his debts were remitted) was a
William Godard. It would be useful to know more about him. Presumably
he held some position in the Percy retinue. At the time of the will the
Sir John-to-be would have been a young child. Was he William's child?
It seems the sort of background from which he could have come. And what
was this William's ancestry?
There are one or two other scattered references. There was at least one
other C14th will mentioning a Godard, somewhere around Kirby Moorside
IIRC and there was also a Godard who was made a freeman of York in the
C14th.
5. Possible Cheshire links. I came across another digitised book which
included Sir John's arms and noted that the same arms had been born by a
Sir Hugh Godard who appears to have been a Knight of the Shire for
Cheshire. A2A also has references to a Rose, widow of John Godard
(Rylands charters RYCH/1412&3) in the context of Storeton, Tranmere etc.
so it seems possible that there was an early Godard family associated
with Cheshire who escaped my later survey.
In short it seems likely that the Godard surname arose a number of
times. One of these times can clearly be documented in Yorkshire
although it can't be genealogically connected to Sir John. There
appears to have been another in Cheshire which may have been connected.
I have nothing to say that the other families from my survey were
connected either with these or with each other.
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
Hi Ian,
Thanks for sharing your Godard researches. I guess we will never know
the true origin of Sir John.
Regards,
John
-
Ian Goddard
Re: Sir John Godard continued
Ian Goddard wrote:
<snip>
This will is in Testamenta Eboricensia or Wills at York Part 1. Surtees
Society 1836 pp 57 - 61 and is dated to 1351
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
Ian Goddard wrote:
4. Other Yorkshire sources. The University of Iowa site at
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/ has a number of useful links.
<snip>
The Iowa site also has a number of digitized Surtees publications
including wills. One of these (reference not to hand) includes a will
of Henry Percy who died at Spofforth in the early 1350s in which one of
the witnesses (and beneficiary in that his debts were remitted) was a
William Godard. It would be useful to know more about him. Presumably
he held some position in the Percy retinue. At the time of the will the
Sir John-to-be would have been a young child. Was he William's child?
It seems the sort of background from which he could have come. And what
was this William's ancestry?
This will is in Testamenta Eboricensia or Wills at York Part 1. Surtees
Society 1836 pp 57 - 61 and is dated to 1351
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
-
Ian Goddard
Re: Sir John Godard
John Watson wrote:
Agnes will dated 1448 is in North Country Wills, Surtees Society 1908 pp
48 & 49
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
He married Constance, daughter of Thomas de Sutton of Holderness and
widow of Peter de Mauley VI and had two sons, his heir Sir John, Henry
who d.s.p. and three daughters, Agnes, who married Brian Stapleton,
Maud, who married Robert Wadesley and Margaret, who married Thomas
Ughtred.
Agnes will dated 1448 is in North Country Wills, Surtees Society 1908 pp
48 & 49
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk