Edmund Talbot of Bashall

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John Schuerman

Edmund Talbot of Bashall

Legg inn av John Schuerman » 21 nov 2007 22:30:05

I return to the Talbots of Bashall, and in particular the question of
the wife of Sir Edmund Talbot, a topic that has been previously
discussed in this forum.

It is generally assumed that the wife of Sir Edmund (born about 1260,
died after 19 July 1310) was Joan de Holand, daughter of Robert de
Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury (some sources show her as their
granddaughter, but that idea has been discredited). Primary sources
make it clear that Edmund's wife was a Joan or Jane, for example, see
Compoti of the Lancashire & Cheshire Manors of Henry de Lacy, 3rd Earl
of Lincoln (Chetham Soc., v. 112, p. x) which is a conveyance by Henry
de Lacy to Edmund Talbot and Jane, his wife and the IPM of Henry de
Lacy (Cal. Inquests Post Mortem, v. 5, p. 161). It is also believed
that Joan subsequently married Sir Hugh Dutton and Sir John Radcliffe
and there seems to be some evidence for these marriages.

I am, however, unable to find primary source evidence that Joan, the
wife of Edmund Talbot, was the daughter of Robert de Holand. A
principal source for the secondary accounts appears to be Dugdale's
Visitation of Yorkshire, 1666 (on-line, http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AHE1867.0001.001,
p. 238, access through libraries subscribing to Making of America
books). This is Dugdale's pedigree of "Talbot of Thorneton."
Dugdale's entry for Joan, wife of Edmund Talbot, reads, "Johana, filia
Rob. Holland de Holland, fuit dotata in Hapton. Assiza capta apud
Cliderow coram Joh. de Hopton, &c. 2 E. 3."

Among the other secondary sources showing this marriage are Foster's
Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire, 1874; Thomas Whitaker's
History of Whalley, (3rd ed. 1878, v. 2, p. 500) and his History of
Craven, 1878; Ormerod's History of Chester, (2nd edition, v. 1, pp.
645-46, but see also errata in v. 3, p. 894); Baines, History of the
County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster (1891 ed. p. 48); and
Bartlett's English Ancestry of Peter Talbot of Dorchester, Mass., 1917
(p. 9).

I have been unable to find the assize referenced by Dugdale in the
National Archives. It is possible that it exists in the Lancashire
PRO in Preston or in one of the North Yorkshire record offices (due to
shifting county lines, Bashall has been in both Lancashire and
Yorkshire). However, the assize was copied by Christopher Towneley.
Towneley's MSS are scattered in various locations in England including
the British Library, Chetham's Library in Manchester, and the
Manchester Central Library. This particular entry can be found in a
MS in Manchester Central Library, shelf mark L1/47/2/2, a coucher book
of Whalley Abbey, pp. 25-27 (this is not the published coucher book of
Whalley in the Chetham Society series). On a recent visit to that
library I photographed those pages and Chris Phillips has translated
them for me. Although this assize identifies Edmund Talbot's wife as
Joan, it is clear that it does not provide evidence for her
parentage.

Whitaker's History of Whalley Talbot pedigree was compiled by his
editor, Langton, "from the Towneley MSS." The relevant Towneley MSS
are not identified. As it turns out, there is a manuscript in the
British Library (Add. MS 30,146) which contains Langton's copies of
evidences concerning the Talbots and other families used in his
revision of Whitaker's Whalley, drawn from Towneley's MSS. At folio
44 of this MS there appears a copy of the assize, copied from
Towneley. In a marginal note to the entry, Langton says, "This Jonne
is said to bee the dau. of Robert Holand by Eliz. dau. of William
Samlesbury." I think this indicates Langton's caution in the
identification, although he showed her as the daughter of Robert
Holand in the published revision of Whitaker's Whalley. Examination
of other entries in Langton's MS do not reveal Joan's parentage.

A source often cited in secondary works on the Talbots of this time is
Harley 804, ff. 16-18b. On my behalf, Chris Phillips has examined
this in the British Library. This may be from Towneley (who may have
copied it from Dodsworth). Although there is material there of use in
documenting the Talbots, there appears to be nothing in these pages
bearing on the parentage of Joan.

Other manuscripts in the British Library (Towneley's Add. MS. 32,111,
ff. 36, 52d, 78; Dugdale's Visitation of Westmorland, Add. MS. 32,116,
ff. 30-31d; and Harley 2050, f. 156, copied from Dodsworth) show Joan
as the daughter of Robert Holand and Elizabeth Samlesbury, but these
all may have the same faulty origin (either Towneley or Dodsworth). I
should note that some Holand pedigrees show Joan as a daughter of
Robert and Elizabeth Samlesbury married to Edmund Talbot, Hugh Dutton,
and John Radsliffe (e.g., History of the Ancient Hall of Samlesbury,
James Croston, 1871, FHL film 0924264 and Coucher Book of Whalley, v.
4 (v. 20 of Chetham Society Publications), p. 978). These may well be
traced back to Towneley. I have seen no primary evidence that Robert
and Elizabeth had a daughter Joan.

Two properties recur in the evidences for the Talbots, Lacys, and
Holands, properties in Rishton and Hapton. Both properties appear to
have been held by the Earls of Lincoln (the Lacys) and granted by them
to the Talbots. The Holands do not appear to have held Rishton at any
relevant time. Robert de Holand (apparently the son of Robert and
Elizabeth de Samlesbury, who would have been the brother of Joan, 1st
Baron Holand) was given the wardship of the manor of Hapton after the
death of Henry de Lacy who had assumed it on the death of Edmund
Talbot due to the nonage of his son John Talbot, during which time
Edmund's widow Joan continued to receive her third of the farm.
Robert de Holand's holdings were forfeited due to his involvement with
the Earl of Lancaster in the Gaveston unpleasantness. It is not clear
to me that all of this indicates a relationship between Joan and
Robert. I can provide a précis of the Rishton and Hapton evidences to
anyone who is interested.

Dunkenhalgh Deeds (Chetham Soc. n.s. v. 80) claims in the editor's
introduction (p. 6) that Joan was the daughter of Henry de Lacy, Earl
of Lincoln. This is supported by a suit (Ibid. p. 37). This suit is
dated "after 1462" so it is hardly contemporary. This identification
is clearly wrong since Henry de Lacy's IPM (referenced above)
identifies his daughter, Alice, as his remaining heir (Alice was
married to Thomas, Earl of Lancaster).

I would appreciate any data that provide more definitive evidence of
Joan's parentage.

There are some other interesting things regarding Edmund Talbot in
Langton's evidences, including question about whether he was ever
actually knighted, but I will try to provide another communication on
that matter.

John Schuerman
Chicago

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