A Venable document

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wjhonson

A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 02:39:02

Speaking of non compos mentis, anyone wanna take a stab at diagramming
this and then comparing it to other things we know? Does it fit? Or
does it throw everything out the window.


VERNON COLLECTION; (Vernon of Kinderton, Warren of Poynton)
Catalogue Ref. DVE
Creator(s): Vernon family of Kinderton, Cheshire
ref. DVE/1/B V
BRERETON

FILE [no title] - ref. DVE/1/B V/1 - date: Tuesday after the Feast of
St. Luke the Evangelist. Ao 10. Edw. III
[from Scope and Content] Pleadings by "Hugo de Venables de Kinderton"
against "Rogri fil Thom de Venables et Agnet ux ejus" for one messuage
and 12 acres of land whereunto they have no right except under a lease
made to "Thom fil Hugon de Venables" by "Hugo de Venables pater Prdct
Hugois de Venables de Kinderton" whilst he was non compos mentis. The
Defendants not appearing the Plaintiff recovered the premises in
dispute.



Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 03:19:03

Will speaking of the Venables family, here is another *very*
interesting document for you to ponder.

FILE [no title] - ref. DVE/1/E II/16 - date: 25. Aug. 6. Eliz
[from Scope and Content] Covenant made by Sir Thomas Venables of
Kinderton to levy a fine to William Massy of Thomas Gravenor of Eaton
and others of all his property in Eccleston in trusr for the said Sir
Thomas Venables for life Remainder in tail male to Thomas Venables
Esquire his Son and heir apparent to Thomas Venables the bastard son
of the said Sir Thomas by Anne Broke to Edward Venables another
bastard son of the said Sir Thomas by Anne Bostock to William Venables
another bastard by the said Ann Bostock to Sypryane Venables another
bastard by the said Anne to Anthony Venables another bastard of the
said Sir Thomas to Richard Venables of Agdone to William Venables of
Sproston to Hugh Venables and to Thomas Venables of Antrobus and
Remainder over to the heirs general of the said Thomas Venables son
and heir apparent of the said John Thomas Venables [sic].

wjhonson

Re: A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 04:08:02

So my harrassing and beating up the archives of Chester has found
something new to Genealogics, and perhaps someone else would want to
fill in the gaps.

Here on Leo's great website
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 7&tree=LEO
we see that Sir Thomas Venables, Knt of Kinderton, co Chester who
among some illegitimate children, had at least one legitimate one by
his wife Maud Needham, being that Thomas Venables, esq who d 1606 and
who m1 Elizabeth Brereton and m2 Anne Gargrave (d 1634).

By his first wife, Thomas had at least or exactly two children, eldest
daughter Elizabeth Venables who married Sir Thomas Egerton, Lord
Ellesmere, Lord Chancellor of England (at least in 1606); and youngest
daughter Mary Venables who m Sir Richard Assheton (Ashton), Knt of
Middleton (d 1618)

By his second wife, Thomas had at least three children, Charles died
young d.v.p., Mary Venables, living 1634 unmarried and Peter Venables,
Baron of Kinderton, second son, "aged 31 or about" at his mother's
death in 1634 who m1 Mary Wilbraham (dau of Richard Wilbraham and
Grace Savage) and m2 Frances Cholmley "dau of Hugh Cholmley" (but
which one???)

At any rate, back on the farm, Leo has dates at all for that Thomas
Venables, Knt who m Maud Needham. Thomas' IPM is abstrated in the
archives of Chester wherein they state that it states that he died
*exactly* on "19 Jul last past" the IPM being dated "8 Apr 23 Eliz"
AND that his son and heir Thomas Venables esq was "Aged 38 and
upwards"

So that certainly helps immensely to firm up the chronology.

Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service: VERNON
COLLECTION (Vernon of Kinderton, Warren of Poynton)
VERNON COLLECTION; (Vernon of Kinderton, Warren of Poynton)
Catalogue Ref. DVE
Creator(s): Vernon family of Kinderton, Cheshire

INQUISITIONS POST MORTEM
ref. DVE/1/I II
FILE [no title] - ref. DVE/1/I II/8 - date: nd

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 05:16:02

Will thank you for your excellect post, most appreciated.

You might be interested to know that there is a document in those same
archives, which effectively destroys the idea that Hugh Venables of
Kinderton was a son of Richard Venables by his wife Isabel Langton.
Notwithstanding that this couple *may* have had *some* son named Hugh,
he was not the one who inherited the estate.

The proof comes from a Burden granted by E3 *to* Hugh 33E3 "...for
having taken possession of the lands which belonged to HUGH his FATHER
immediately after the [...] of William his BROTHER, son and HEIR of
the said Hugh during his minority without livery..."

So we learn *quite* a lot from this, that will undoubtedly through
many a reader's database into a tizzy. Good work.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 05:17:02

Will, thank you for your excellent post. It will certainly drive a
firm nail into the chronology at this point, to know that the IPM of
Hugh Venables of Kinderton dated 3H5 states that his son and heir,
also named Hugh, married Petronille Dutton daughter of Peter (Piers)
"two years before his father's death".

And by the way this son, who was a minor, has a writ to grant seizen,
having proven his age and done homage, dated 5 Oct 5H6.

So there you go. Other (false) Venable chronology must be changed to
match these quite exact statements ;) Get to work.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: A Venable document

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21 nov 2007 05:52:02

Will thank you for your excellent post. As another piece of
chronology in this very confused and muddled family of Venables, let
me state that the marriage *settlement* "made on the marriage of Mary
Venables... with Richard Ashton son and heir apparent of Sir Richard
Ashton Knight of Middleton" is dated 13 Feb 1J1

Quite useful for restricting the birthrange of Ralph and Dorothy
Ashton (Assheton)

Will Johnson

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