Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

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Leo van de Pas

Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 nov 2007 09:05:02

Plantagenet Encyclopedia (editor Elizabeth Hallam) page 38 gives

Butler, Lady Eleanor
died 1468. Daughter of John Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury; said to have been Edward IV's mistress in her youth. A rumour allegedly put about by Richard, 3rd duke of Gloucester, later Richard III, claimed that Edward IV had contracted to marry Lady Eleanor, that his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on 1 May 1464 was therefor invalid and that the young Edward V was consequently illegitimate and not entitled to the throne.

This tells me that Lady Eleanor was born a Talbot. This also infers that Lady Eleanor, to become a Butler _must_ have married, I guess, after 1 May 1464.

But why can't I find a Lady Eleanor Talbot, born in the appropriate period, as a daughter of the 1st or 2rd Earl of Shrewsbury. Why doesn't Burke's Peerage mention her? Keep in mind Edward IV was born in 1442.

BP 1999 page 2604 John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, married 2ndly 6 September 1425 Lady Margaret de Beauchamp. Here they speculate that Lady Margaret de Beauchamp, by later doctrine, was Baroness Berkeley, and when she died (according to the same doctrine) the title should have gone into abeyance between her _three daughters_. This I do not understand, why should her titles go to the daughters when she had a son (who died before her and had a son and a daughter?) In any case, I can find only two daughters mentioned :
1.Lady Joan Talbot who married in 1457 and again before 26 April 1474
2.Lady Elizabeth Talbot who married in 1448------------by the way Edward IV was born in 1442 and so how much older was Lady Eleanor, if she was the third daughter?

BP 1999 page 2605 John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, married before March 1445 Lady Elizabeth Butler. Here is said he had with other issue, in other words here we cannot find all his children. I found (not necessarily in the correct order)
1.John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury born 1448
2.Sir James died in 1471
3.Christopher died after 1474
4.George Talbot
5.Sir Gilbert born in 1452
6.Lady Anne who married in 1467 Sir Henry Vernon

Now Desmond Seward, in his "The War of the Roses" on page 227, tells .......while after hi8s (Edward IV) it was alleged that he had seduced a daughter of the Earl of Salisbury (what another one !! ) with a promise of marriage. More is tantalizing unspecific in his (Domenico Mancini) account of the king's loves :

King Edward would say that he had three concubines which in three divers properties diversely excelled, one the merriest, another the wisest, the third the holiest harlot in his realm........
The last two seem to have been ladies of the court, and were probably Elizabeth Lucy and Eleanor Butler. The merriest was Shore's wife.

On page 271 again Lady Eleanor Butler, daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury, to whom Edward IV was supposedly betrothed. I think the reference to the daughter of the Earl of Salisbury was a slip, and meant Earl of Shrewsbury.

Can anyone tell who the parents _and_ husband were of Lady Eleanor Butler?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

John Watson

Re: Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av John Watson » 19 nov 2007 09:55:05

On Nov 19, 4:05 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Plantagenet Encyclopedia (editor Elizabeth Hallam) page 38 gives

Butler, Lady Eleanor
died 1468. Daughter of John Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury; said to have been Edward IV's mistress in her youth. A rumour allegedly put about by Richard, 3rd duke of Gloucester, later Richard III, claimed that Edward IV had contracted to marry Lady Eleanor, that his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on 1 May 1464 was therefor invalid and that the young Edward V was consequently illegitimate and not entitled to the throne.

This tells me that Lady Eleanor was born a Talbot. This also infers that Lady Eleanor, to become a Butler _must_ have married, I guess, after 1 May 1464.

But why can't I find a Lady Eleanor Talbot, born in the appropriate period, as a daughter of the 1st or 2rd Earl of Shrewsbury. Why doesn't Burke's Peerage mention her? Keep in mind Edward IV was born in 1442.

BP 1999 page 2604 John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, married 2ndly 6 September 1425 Lady Margaret de Beauchamp. Here they speculate that Lady Margaret de Beauchamp, by later doctrine, was Baroness Berkeley, and when she died (according to the same doctrine) the title should have gone into abeyance between her _three daughters_. This I do not understand, why should her titles go to the daughters when she had a son (who died before her and had a son and a daughter?) In any case, I can find only two daughters mentioned :
1.Lady Joan Talbot who married in 1457 and again before 26 April 1474
2.Lady Elizabeth Talbot who married in 1448------------by the way Edward IV was born in 1442 and so how much older was Lady Eleanor, if she was the third daughter?

BP 1999 page 2605 John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, married before March 1445 Lady Elizabeth Butler. Here is said he had with other issue, in other words here we cannot find all his children. I found (not necessarily in the correct order)
1.John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury born 1448
2.Sir James died in 1471
3.Christopher died after 1474
4.George Talbot
5.Sir Gilbert born in 1452
6.Lady Anne who married in 1467 Sir Henry Vernon

Now Desmond Seward, in his "The War of the Roses" on page 227, tells ......while after hi8s (Edward IV) it was alleged that he had seduced a daughter of the Earl of Salisbury (what another one !! ) with a promise of marriage. More is tantalizing unspecific in his (Domenico Mancini) account of the king's loves :

King Edward would say that he had three concubines which in three divers properties diversely excelled, one the merriest, another the wisest, the third the holiest harlot in his realm........
The last two seem to have been ladies of the court, and were probably Elizabeth Lucy and Eleanor Butler. The merriest was Shore's wife.

On page 271 again Lady Eleanor Butler, daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury, to whom Edward IV was supposedly betrothed. I think the reference to the daughter of the Earl of Salisbury was a slip, and meant Earl of Shrewsbury.

Can anyone tell who the parents _and_ husband were of Lady Eleanor Butler?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Leo,

For what it's worth - you can find the same confusion in Wikipedia.

Under the entry for John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, you will find
the following children listed for him and his second wife, Lady
Margaret Beauchamp:-

* Sir Lewis Talbot
* John Talbot, 1st Viscount Lisle (c. 1426 - 17 July 1453)
* Sir Humphrey Talbot (before 1453 - c. 1492)
* Lady Elizabeth Talbot (before 1453). She married John de
Mowbray, 4th Duke of Norfolk.
* Lady Eleanor Talbot (d. 1468) married to Thomas Butler and King
Edward IV of England.

Under the entry for Lady Margaret Beauchamp, you will find the
following children listed for her and her husband John Talbot, 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury:-

* Sir Lewis Talbot
* John Talbot, 1st Viscount Lisle (d. 1453)
* Sir Humphrey Talbot (d. c. 1492)
* Elizabeth Talbot (d. bef. 1453), married John de Mowbray, 4th
Duke of Norfolk.

Regards,

John

CE Wood

Re: Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av CE Wood » 19 nov 2007 18:30:06

Brad Verity cited evidence in a 2005 thread , "C.P. Addition:
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley." There have been
several other discussions which concluded that she was the daughter of
John, 1st Lord Talbot, and Margaret Beauchamp, and that she married
Thomas Boteler bef 10 May 1453.

CE Wood


On Nov 19, 12:05 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au>
wrote:
Plantagenet Encyclopedia (editor Elizabeth Hallam) page 38 gives

Butler, Lady Eleanor
died 1468. Daughter of John Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury; said to have been Edward IV's mistress in her youth. A rumour allegedly put about by Richard, 3rd duke of Gloucester, later Richard III, claimed that Edward IV had contracted to marry Lady Eleanor, that his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on 1 May 1464 was therefor invalid and that the young Edward V was consequently illegitimate and not entitled to the throne.

This tells me that Lady Eleanor was born a Talbot. This also infers that Lady Eleanor, to become a Butler _must_ have married, I guess, after 1 May 1464.

But why can't I find a Lady Eleanor Talbot, born in the appropriate period, as a daughter of the 1st or 2rd Earl of Shrewsbury. Why doesn't Burke's Peerage mention her? Keep in mind Edward IV was born in 1442.

BP 1999 page 2604 John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, married 2ndly 6 September 1425 Lady Margaret de Beauchamp. Here they speculate that Lady Margaret de Beauchamp, by later doctrine, was Baroness Berkeley, and when she died (according to the same doctrine) the title should have gone into abeyance between her _three daughters_. This I do not understand, why should her titles go to the daughters when she had a son (who died before her and had a son and a daughter?) In any case, I can find only two daughters mentioned :
1.Lady Joan Talbot who married in 1457 and again before 26 April 1474
2.Lady Elizabeth Talbot who married in 1448------------by the way Edward IV was born in 1442 and so how much older was Lady Eleanor, if she was the third daughter?

BP 1999 page 2605 John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, married before March 1445 Lady Elizabeth Butler. Here is said he had with other issue, in other words here we cannot find all his children. I found (not necessarily in the correct order)
1.John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury born 1448
2.Sir James died in 1471
3.Christopher died after 1474
4.George Talbot
5.Sir Gilbert born in 1452
6.Lady Anne who married in 1467 Sir Henry Vernon

Now Desmond Seward, in his "The War of the Roses" on page 227, tells ......while after hi8s (Edward IV) it was alleged that he had seduced a daughter of the Earl of Salisbury (what another one !! ) with a promise of marriage. More is tantalizing unspecific in his (Domenico Mancini) account of the king's loves :

King Edward would say that he had three concubines which in three divers properties diversely excelled, one the merriest, another the wisest, the third the holiest harlot in his realm........
The last two seem to have been ladies of the court, and were probably Elizabeth Lucy and Eleanor Butler. The merriest was Shore's wife.

On page 271 again Lady Eleanor Butler, daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury, to whom Edward IV was supposedly betrothed. I think the reference to the daughter of the Earl of Salisbury was a slip, and meant Earl of Shrewsbury.

Can anyone tell who the parents _and_ husband were of Lady Eleanor Butler?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

wjhonson

Re: Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av wjhonson » 19 nov 2007 22:33:02

On Nov 19, 9:29 am, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
Brad Verity cited evidence in a 2005 thread , "C.P. Addition:
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley." There have been
several other discussions which concluded that she was the daughter of
John, 1st Lord Talbot, and Margaret Beauchamp, and that she married
Thomas Boteler bef 10 May 1453.

CE Wood

On Nov 19, 12:05 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au
wrote:



Plantagenet Encyclopedia (editor Elizabeth Hallam) page 38 gives

Butler, Lady Eleanor
died 1468. Daughter of John Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury; said to have been Edward IV's mistress in her youth. A rumour allegedly put about by Richard, 3rd duke of Gloucester, later Richard III, claimed that Edward IV had contracted to marry Lady Eleanor, that his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on 1 May 1464 was therefor invalid and that the young Edward V was consequently illegitimate and not entitled to the throne.

This tells me that Lady Eleanor was born a Talbot. This also infers that Lady Eleanor, to become a Butler _must_ have married, I guess, after 1 May 1464.

But why can't I find a Lady Eleanor Talbot, born in the appropriate period, as a daughter of the 1st or 2rd Earl of Shrewsbury. Why doesn't Burke's Peerage mention her? Keep in mind Edward IV was born in 1442.

BP 1999 page 2604 John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, married 2ndly 6 September 1425 Lady Margaret de Beauchamp. Here they speculate that Lady Margaret de Beauchamp, by later doctrine, was Baroness Berkeley, and when she died (according to the same doctrine) the title should have gone into abeyance between her _three daughters_. This I do not understand, why should her titles go to the daughters when she had a son (who died before her and had a son and a daughter?) In any case, I can find only two daughters mentioned :
1.Lady Joan Talbot who married in 1457 and again before 26 April 1474
2.Lady Elizabeth Talbot who married in 1448------------by the way Edward IV was born in 1442 and so how much older was Lady Eleanor, if she was the third daughter?

BP 1999 page 2605 John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, married before March 1445 Lady Elizabeth Butler. Here is said he had with other issue, in other words here we cannot find all his children. I found (not necessarily in the correct order)
1.John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury born 1448
2.Sir James died in 1471
3.Christopher died after 1474
4.George Talbot
5.Sir Gilbert born in 1452
6.Lady Anne who married in 1467 Sir Henry Vernon

Now Desmond Seward, in his "The War of the Roses" on page 227, tells ......while after hi8s (Edward IV) it was alleged that he had seduced a daughter of the Earl of Salisbury (what another one !! ) with a promise of marriage. More is tantalizing unspecific in his (Domenico Mancini) account of the king's loves :

King Edward would say that he had three concubines which in three divers properties diversely excelled, one the merriest, another the wisest, the third the holiest harlot in his realm........
The last two seem to have been ladies of the court, and were probably Elizabeth Lucy and Eleanor Butler. The merriest was Shore's wife.

On page 271 again Lady Eleanor Butler, daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury, to whom Edward IV was supposedly betrothed. I think the reference to the daughter of the Earl of Salisbury was a slip, and meant Earl of Shrewsbury.

Can anyone tell who the parents _and_ husband were of Lady Eleanor Butler?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

-------------
I will cite the primary evidence for the existence of Eleanor Talbot
and her husband
Warwickshire County Record Office: Holbech of Farnborough
Holbech of Farnborough. Catalogue Ref. L1
Creator(s): Holbech family of Farnborough Warwickshire
Deeds of Title
FILE [no title] - ref. L1/79 - date: Chepingdorset 10 May 31 Hen.VI
[1453]
[from Scope and Content] Gift, with warranty, by Ralph Botiller lord
of Sudeley knight to Thomas Botiller his son and heir and to Thomas'
wife Eleanor daughter of John Earl of Salop' and of Margaret his wife
and to their legitimate issue of his manors of Chepingdorset, Greffe,
Fennycompton' and of all his lands and tenements called Shipleysthing
in Greffe: all the lands, tenements, rents, reversions and services
are to be held of the capital lords by the services due and accustomed
to the capital lords of the fee.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av wjhonson » 20 nov 2007 02:36:02

On Nov 19, 12:52 am, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
For what it's worth - you can find the same confusion in Wikipedia.

Under the entry for John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, you will find
the following children listed for him and his second wife, Lady
Margaret Beauchamp:-

* Sir Lewis Talbot
* John Talbot, 1st Viscount Lisle (c. 1426 - 17 July 1453)
* Sir Humphrey Talbot (before 1453 - c. 1492)
* Lady Elizabeth Talbot (before 1453). She married John de
Mowbray, 4th Duke of Norfolk.
* Lady Eleanor Talbot (d. 1468) married to Thomas Butler and King
Edward IV of England.

Under the entry for Lady Margaret Beauchamp, you will find the
following children listed for her and her husband John Talbot, 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury:-

* Sir Lewis Talbot
* John Talbot, 1st Viscount Lisle (d. 1453)
* Sir Humphrey Talbot (d. c. 1492)
* Elizabeth Talbot (d. bef. 1453), married John de Mowbray, 4th
Duke of Norfolk.

Regards,
John
-------------


That is probably due to uncertainty as to which wife was her mother.
It's most likely she was by the second wife, but I don't have a
primary source for that.
So that probably also tells us that Thomas Boteler of Cheapingdorset,
her husband was closer to her age, rather than farther. Again I have
nothing that tells me how old he was at any time. He *was* the heir
apparent of his father Ralph Lord Sudeley, but d.v.p.s.p.

I *imagine* that if he was already in his majority when he died, that
he might appear in various offices, but again I have nothing to help
me there. Thomas had to be born sometime in the first half of the
15th century.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Lady Eleanor Butler - who was she?

Legg inn av wjhonson » 20 nov 2007 09:11:03

On Nov 19, 12:05 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au>
wrote:
Plantagenet Encyclopedia (editor Elizabeth Hallam) page 38 gives

Butler, Lady Eleanor
died 1468. Daughter of John Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury; said to have been Edward IV's mistress in her youth. A rumour allegedly put about by Richard, 3rd duke of Gloucester, later Richard III, claimed that Edward IV had contracted to marry Lady Eleanor, that his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on 1 May 1464 was therefor invalid and that the young Edward V was consequently illegitimate and not entitled to the throne.

This tells me that Lady Eleanor was born a Talbot. This also infers that Lady Eleanor, to become a Butler _must_ have married, I guess, after 1 May 1464.

But why can't I find a Lady Eleanor Talbot, born in the appropriate period, as a daughter of the 1st or 2rd Earl of Shrewsbury. Why doesn't Burke's Peerage mention her? Keep in mind Edward IV was born in 1442.

BP 1999 page 2604 John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, married 2ndly 6 September 1425 Lady Margaret de Beauchamp. Here they speculate that Lady Margaret de Beauchamp, by later doctrine, was Baroness Berkeley, and when she died (according to the same doctrine) the title should have gone into abeyance between her _three daughters_. This I do not understand, why should her titles go to the daughters when she had a son (who died before her and had a son and a daughter?) In any case, I can find only two daughters mentioned :
1.Lady Joan Talbot who married in 1457 and again before 26 April 1474
2.Lady Elizabeth Talbot who married in 1448------------by the way Edward IV was born in 1442 and so how much older was Lady Eleanor, if she was the third daughter?



---------------
Not sure anyone addressed the above mention of a son for Margaret
Beauchamp.
Leo are you referring to John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury who d 10
Jul 1460 in battle ?
If so, he was not the son of Margaret Beauchamp but rather of Maud
Neville, Baroness Furnival, the *first* wife of John Talbot.

Will Johnson

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