Fw: Maud Fitzalan

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Maud Fitzalan

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 15 nov 2007 21:08:03

Dear Margaret,

Gen-Med used to be a place attended by people basically from all around the
world. But it has been degenerating by the behaviour of Hines and
Richardson. If only Hines could stick to genealogy, once he used to
contribute but that is years ago. Richardson has placed himself on a
pedestal, and don't you dare disagree with him. You have seen his attacks on
Tish only this week. When he is asked awkward questions he ignores the
subject and attacks the person. How long do you think Gen-Med can survive
with this kind of school-yard bullying?

Look at the messages I received today,. mainly Richardson grandstanding,
Will Johnson and Renia disagreeing with him, and Richarson sneering at
me---------what kind of contend is that? When was the last time European
contributors really contributed? I fear more and more people are only just
watching and watching and then simply unsubscribe, quietly disappear never
to be seen again.

You say ignore certain people. It is easy to ignore Hines, but Richardson
cannot be ignored, he discusses genealogy, makes mistakes that, if
unchallenged, will end up with other people. If only Richardson appreciated
that "criticism" can only improve information, we all would be better of.

Richardson intends to go on on his merry way, and so do I.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret" <marschball@wanadoo.fr>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Maud Fitzalan


I really hope people do not leave because of the nastiness of some
postings. Although there is so much of it I think (or perhaps, hope,
is better) that ignoring them would eventually at least reduce the
spoiling. I think it's a mistake to respond to certain people and to
taunts and any personal insult in kind. All it does is feed whatever
delusions those people are suffering from and is seen as
encouragement. They have the same mentality as stalkers. Trying to
reason or shame leads you into a hiding to nowhere.

There is some good stuff still coming, despite everything. I've often
noticed that three or four messages can get through on a thread before
it gets picked on and starts degenerating. Once that happens I flick
through as quickly as possible and watch out for sane messages. I only
wish I was more knowledgeable and could join in more, but there we
are. Leo has the right idea - he changes the heading. That way the
filth is just ignored.

Anyway, for the reasons given by Leo and Merilyn, I do hope people
really interested in the subject don't leave.
yours
Margaret

On Nov 15, 9:58 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Merilyn,

Richardson and Hines have no shame. By edging out people they expect to
become the big fish, but it will be a very small pond.

By edging out people who critise Richardson simply will mean that
Richardson
is always right and become the big genealogical guru he already thinks he
is. Only gullible people will remain and be in awe of the _oh so
knowledgeable_ Mr. Richardson, and then he will sell even more books, the
books he regularly touts on gen-med.

Richardson is trying to high-jack gen-med for his selfish reasons. His
simulposting games are just to taunt Todd Farmerie and Don Stone.
I really wonder about his sanity, his indecent behaviour is already
known,
where will he lead himself? A nervous breakdown? It will be self
inflicted.
And in the mean time Gen-Med already damaged by Hines goes even further
down
the gurgler.

If only we could start afresh, and do without these two.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedri...@ozemail.com.au
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Maud Fitzalan

How many worthwhile contributors have left this forum because of the
asinine rantings of those who clog up the system with venom and spite
which
has nothing to do with medieval genealogy?

Most of us haven't the stomach for a fight with them, but Peter tried,
and
has now given up in disgust. It would be tragic if someone like Leo
left
as
well.

Shame on you, who have driven away the ones we have relied on for
scholarly
information.

Merilyn Pedrick


-------------------------------
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Douglas Richardson

Re: Fw: Maud Fitzalan

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 16 nov 2007 02:02:02

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Nov 15, 1:08 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

< Richardson has placed himself on a pedestal, and don't you dare
disagree with him.

Leo disagrees with me all the time. So much for my pedestal.

< You have seen his attacks on
< Tish only this week. When he is asked awkward questions he ignores
the
< subject and attacks the person. How long do you think Gen-Med can
survive
ith this kind of school-yard bullying?

I know. Richardson is SUCH a bully.

Look at the messages I received today,. mainly Richardson grandstanding,
Will Johnson and Renia disagreeing with him, and Richarson sneering at
me---------what kind of contend is that? When was the last time European
contributors really contributed? I fear more and more people are only just
watching and watching and then simply unsubscribe, quietly disappear never
to be seen again.

I contributed several items this week thank you. One of them
corrected Complete Peerage, Scots Peerage, as well as Leo's database.

You say ignore certain people. It is easy to ignore Hines, but Richardson
cannot be ignored, he discusses genealogy, makes mistakes that, if
unchallenged, will end up with other people. If only Richardson appreciated
that "criticism" can only improve information, we all would be better of.

Richardson can not be ignored? Geez - my teenage children ignore me
all the time. Shows what you know.

< Richardson intends to go on on his merry way, and so do I.

I'm staying here. Where is Leo going?

DR

Margaret

Re: Fw: Maud Fitzalan

Legg inn av Margaret » 16 nov 2007 08:51:01

Hello Leo
Yes I've seen there used to be a lot more discussion as opposed to mud
slinging in the past - before I joined, I'm sorry to say.

Yes it is easier to ignore some people than others. I don't have the
answer, but I'm as sure as I can be about anything that abandoning sgm
is not the answer.

It seems to me that when a sneering taunt is ignored, it's the sneer
that sticks out like a sore thumb looking stupid.

For what it's worth, the more sneered at people like you are, the
higher you go in my estimation anyway. It means the point you've made
has hit home.

Dealing with mistakes is a different matter. But maybe the same thing
applies but the other way round. Mistakes must be challenged and
discussed. Refusal to answer honestly, using stubborn and sullen 'I am
right' retorts speaks for itself. I see that some people repeat the
challenge reminding us it hasn't been answered.

I think Douglas Richardson's inability to keep an open mind and accept
discussion of his work is his own undoing. When I first joined sgm a
couple of years ago I hung on his every word. Now I do the opposite
and distrust his work. "To err is human...." It's not the flaws that's
the problem, it's the refusal to admit them. That's what undermines
trust. Possibly it's why he gets muddled, he knows this in his heart
of hearts and he's making his life a misery. That's what comes over to
me anyway.
yours
Margaret


On Nov 15, 9:08 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Margaret,

Gen-Med used to be a place attended by people basically from all around the
world. But it has been degenerating by the behaviour of Hines and
Richardson. If only Hines could stick to genealogy, once he used to
contribute but that is years ago. Richardson has placed himself on a
pedestal, and don't you dare disagree with him. You have seen his attacks on
Tish only this week. When he is asked awkward questions he ignores the
subject and attacks the person. How long do you think Gen-Med can survive
with this kind of school-yard bullying?

Look at the messages I received today,. mainly Richardson grandstanding,
Will Johnson and Renia disagreeing with him, and Richarson sneering at
me---------what kind of contend is that? When was the last time European
contributors really contributed? I fear more and more people are only just
watching and watching and then simply unsubscribe, quietly disappear never
to be seen again.

You say ignore certain people. It is easy to ignore Hines, but Richardson
cannot be ignored, he discusses genealogy, makes mistakes that, if
unchallenged, will end up with other people. If only Richardson appreciated
that "criticism" can only improve information, we all would be better of.

Richardson intends to go on on his merry way, and so do I.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret" <marschb...@wanadoo.fr

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Maud Fitzalan

I really hope people do not leave because of the nastiness of some
postings. Although there is so much of it I think (or perhaps, hope,
is better) that ignoring them would eventually at least reduce the
spoiling. I think it's a mistake to respond to certain people and to
taunts and any personal insult in kind. All it does is feed whatever
delusions those people are suffering from and is seen as
encouragement. They have the same mentality as stalkers. Trying to
reason or shame leads you into a hiding to nowhere.

There is some good stuff still coming, despite everything. I've often
noticed that three or four messages can get through on a thread before
it gets picked on and starts degenerating. Once that happens I flick
through as quickly as possible and watch out for sane messages. I only
wish I was more knowledgeable and could join in more, but there we
are. Leo has the right idea - he changes the heading. That way the
filth is just ignored.

Anyway, for the reasons given by Leo and Merilyn, I do hope people
really interested in the subject don't leave.
yours
Margaret

On Nov 15, 9:58 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Merilyn,

Richardson and Hines have no shame. By edging out people they expect to
become the big fish, but it will be a very small pond.

By edging out people who critise Richardson simply will mean that
Richardson
is always right and become the big genealogical guru he already thinks he
is. Only gullible people will remain and be in awe of the _oh so
knowledgeable_ Mr. Richardson, and then he will sell even more books, the
books he regularly touts on gen-med.

Richardson is trying to high-jack gen-med for his selfish reasons. His
simulposting games are just to taunt Todd Farmerie and Don Stone.
I really wonder about his sanity, his indecent behaviour is already
known,
where will he lead himself? A nervous breakdown? It will be self
inflicted.
And in the mean time Gen-Med already damaged by Hines goes even further
down
the gurgler.

If only we could start afresh, and do without these two.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedri...@ozemail.com.au
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Maud Fitzalan

How many worthwhile contributors have left this forum because of the
asinine rantings of those who clog up the system with venom and spite
which
has nothing to do with medieval genealogy?

Most of us haven't the stomach for a fight with them, but Peter tried,
and
has now given up in disgust. It would be tragic if someone like Leo
left
as
well.

Shame on you, who have driven away the ones we have relied on for
scholarly
information.

Merilyn Pedrick

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leticia Cluff

Re: Fw: Maud Fitzalan

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 16 nov 2007 15:26:06

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:49:24 -0800 (PST), Margaret
<marschball@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

Hello Leo
Yes I've seen there used to be a lot more discussion as opposed to mud
slinging in the past - before I joined, I'm sorry to say.

Yes it is easier to ignore some people than others. I don't have the
answer, but I'm as sure as I can be about anything that abandoning sgm
is not the answer.

It seems to me that when a sneering taunt is ignored, it's the sneer
that sticks out like a sore thumb looking stupid.

For what it's worth, the more sneered at people like you are, the
higher you go in my estimation anyway. It means the point you've made
has hit home.

Dealing with mistakes is a different matter. But maybe the same thing
applies but the other way round. Mistakes must be challenged and
discussed. Refusal to answer honestly, using stubborn and sullen 'I am
right' retorts speaks for itself. I see that some people repeat the
challenge reminding us it hasn't been answered.

I think Douglas Richardson's inability to keep an open mind and accept
discussion of his work is his own undoing. When I first joined sgm a
couple of years ago I hung on his every word. Now I do the opposite
and distrust his work. "To err is human...." It's not the flaws that's
the problem, it's the refusal to admit them. That's what undermines
trust. Possibly it's why he gets muddled, he knows this in his heart
of hearts and he's making his life a misery. That's what comes over to
me anyway.


Very well put, Margaret.

I can't help feeling that the inability to admit error is a
particularly masculine failing. We have a very sad example here, a man
who not only refuses to say "Sorry, I was wrong" but also tries to
conceal any evidence that he once tried to mislead us.

On the subject of distrust, I am reminded of the nineteenth-century
tome of which it was said: "It's an excellent reference book, provided
you double-check everything it says."

Tish

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