American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

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Leo van de Pas

American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 11 nov 2007 07:14:11

Someone sent me a fascinating genealogical lineage "produced using the Mormon Family Search PAF software". If this line holds then there may be additional lines for many Americans (and others :-) back to Henry II of England (4) and over 300 lines to Charlemagne

In this line is Sir Euseby Isham 1552/3-1626 who can be found in Gary Boyd Roberts' great book on American presidents as an ancestor of President Thomas Jefferson, however he is also an ancestor of John Marshall 4th Chief Justice of the USA, Thomas Mann Randolph Jr, Governor of Virginia, and General Robert E. Lee.

In this line there are about three generations in question.
-----------------------------------------------
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, page 551 shows

Aubrey de Vere, Earl of Oxford married Alice FitzWalter and they had a daugher and two sons Richard his heir, and John d.s.p. 9th Henry V

But the lineage stands and falls on this John d.s.p.
---------------------------------------------------------
In the lineage this John was born in 1387 in Oxford, he is given a wife (but no name for her)
They had a son Sir Walter Vere born 1405 in Oxford, died 1487 in Leicester, he married Lucia Bassett.

They had a son Richard married to Isabella Greene and they had a daughter Ellen, who married Thomas Isham
---------------------------------------------------------
In Burke's Peerage 1999 page 1518 we find Thomas Isham who married Ellen Vere, daughter of Richard Vere, of Addington.

Can anyone advise whether John dsp really did dsp? Or did he have a son Walter?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

pj.evans

Re: American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

Legg inn av pj.evans » 11 nov 2007 20:23:57

Everything I have at hand says John d.s.p., including Burke's Dormant
& Extinct (1883 edition) and Douglas's books.

I also found this:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... 8page.html

89. Sir Henry de Vere (Robert, #109); born circa 1375[N]; married
Hildeburga (de Vere) (see #90).
Children of Sir Henry de Vere and Hildeburga (de Vere) (see #90) were:
72 i. Sir Walter Vere.
90. Hildeburga (de Vere); born circa 1385[N]; married Sir Henry de
Vere (see #89), son of Sir Robert de Vere and Matilda de Fernel.

91. Gilbert Basset; born circa 1382 of Addington, Northamptonshire,
England,[N].
Children of Gilbert Basset and an unknown spouse were:
73 i. Lucia Basset.

There certainly were Veres who were not in the nobility, and (to my
mind) the person who claims Walter's father is John son of Aubrey and
Alice fitzWalter is doing more than a little wishful thinking. (I have
a Constance Vere, daughter of Richard Vere and Isabel Greene. I don't
know if Richard is connected to Aubrey and Alice fitzWalter, but I'm
certainly not going to construct a line claiming it without evidence
of a connection.)

(As for "produced using the Mormon Family Search PAF software" -
that's no guarantee of quality of genealogical work. Using Family
Search and PAF software, you could invent an entire pedigree, and it
would *still* be invented.)

P J Evans


On Nov 10, 10:14 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au>
wrote:
Someone sent me a fascinating genealogical lineage "produced using the Mormon Family Search PAF software". If this line holds then there may be additional lines for many Americans (and others :-) back to Henry II of England (4) and over 300 lines to Charlemagne

In this line is Sir Euseby Isham 1552/3-1626 who can be found in Gary Boyd Roberts' great book on American presidents as an ancestor of President Thomas Jefferson, however he is also an ancestor of John Marshall 4th Chief Justice of the USA, Thomas Mann Randolph Jr, Governor of Virginia, and General Robert E. Lee.

In this line there are about three generations in question.
-----------------------------------------------
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866, page 551 shows

Aubrey de Vere, Earl of Oxford married Alice FitzWalter and they had a daugher and two sons Richard his heir, and John d.s.p. 9th Henry V

But the lineage stands and falls on this John d.s.p.
---------------------------------------------------------
In the lineage this John was born in 1387 in Oxford, he is given a wife (but no name for her)
They had a son Sir Walter Vere born 1405 in Oxford, died 1487 in Leicester, he married Lucia Bassett.

They had a son Richard married to Isabella Greene and they had a daughter Ellen, who married Thomas Isham
---------------------------------------------------------
In Burke's Peerage 1999 page 1518 we find Thomas Isham who married Ellen Vere, daughter of Richard Vere, of Addington.

Can anyone advise whether John dsp really did dsp? Or did he have a son Walter?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

alden@mindspring.com

Re: American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 11 nov 2007 22:38:35

Dear Leo
,snip.
They had a son Sir Walter Vere born 1405 in Oxford, died 1487 in Leicester, he married Lucia Bassett.


There was a Walter Vere married to Lucia Basset but about two hundred
years earlier, see VCH Northants, vol 3. pps 156, 237 and Waters, Gen.
Memoirs of the Family of Chester of Chicheley, pps 48-49.


They had a son Richard married to Isabella Greene and they had a daughter Ellen, who married Thomas Isham

Richard is said to have been the son of Baldwin de Vere and Elena, see
McLean, Poyntz Family, p 233 and Waters, Gen. Memoirs of the Family of
Chester of Chicheley, pps 48-51. [see waters for the descent from
Vere of Addington]

See comments interspersed above.

Doug Smith
---------------------------------------------------------
In Burke's Peerage 1999 page 1518 we find Thomas Isham who married Ellen Vere, daughter of Richard Vere, of Addington.

Can anyone advise whether John dsp really did dsp? Or did he have a son Walter?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 nov 2007 00:14:32

On Nov 11, 12:46 pm, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net> wrote:
That can be said of virtually any genealogical
software. A good product is also based on the skill,
knowledge, and integrity of the individual researcher.

Kay Allen AG

(As for "produced using the Mormon Family Search PAF



software" -
that's no guarantee of quality of genealogical work.
Using Family
Search and PAF software, you could invent an entire
pedigree, and it
would *still* be invented.)

P J Evans

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word
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the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is a bit of a stretch to refer to the LDS pedigree donors as
researchers in many instances. What you find on Family Search is more
often garbled than not. There is a pedgiree for my grandfather, for
example, that is entirely and completely wrong but very detailed all
the same. And there is no way to contribute new data with resource
information that corrects previous mistakes. At best it can be used
only to suggest new avenues of research that may or may not pan out.

Gjest

Re: American multiplication - or pie in the sky?

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2007 02:11:33

On Nov 12, 10:05 am, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net> wrote:
LDS researchers are probably no better or no worse
than any random sampling of genealogical researchers.

I am one of them. My calling in the Church for 35
years has been with Family History. I have tried to
instill good research practices in my pupils. I have
probably broken more hears than I can count because I
was breaking fabulous royal descents from their
stemmas and telling them they needed to do more
research on a line they were going to submit, even
though it might have met the bare minimum of standards
for submission. Many members are also continuing work
that was done years ago before the Information Age. I,
and others, continue to encourage them to double-check
and correct this work.

Non-members also make submissions, even to the IGI.
Pedigree Resource File has replaced Ancestral File,
but the mistakes are still being generated. Part of
this is due to on-line genealogy.

On one list I have shown, thanks to an English
researcher, the proper ancestry for Simon Hoyt. And
everytime, I get scathing posts telling me what do I
know. I didn't get my AG by being lazy, anything less
than terminally thorough, being ignorant, or
displaying a lack of academic integrity. I try to
instill these qualities in my students. I also have
the advantage of holding a very big stick, guilt. I
ask them if they wish to present work to Heavenly
Father which is shoddy and less than perfect;
perfection being based on record availability. It
usually is a good motivator to encourage them to
better work and gain more experience.

I hope that this will not become an excuse to attack
me and my LDS faith. I am just trying to express my
perspective. Second amendment and all that, ioncluding
common courtesy.

Kay Allen AG



--- lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Nov 11, 12:46 pm, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net
wrote:
That can be said of virtually any genealogical
software. A good product is also based on the
skill,
knowledge, and integrity of the individual
researcher.

Kay Allen AG

(As for "produced using the Mormon Family Search
PAF

software" -
that's no guarantee of quality of genealogical
work.
Using Family
Search and PAF software, you could invent an
entire
pedigree, and it
would *still* be invented.)

P J Evans

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an
email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the
word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and
the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is a bit of a stretch to refer to the LDS
pedigree donors as
researchers in many instances. What you find on
Family Search is more
often garbled than not. There is a pedgiree for my
grandfather, for
example, that is entirely and completely wrong but
very detailed all
the same. And there is no way to contribute new data
with resource
information that corrects previous mistakes. At
best it can be used
only to suggest new avenues of research that may or
may not pan out.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My criticism was not about theology, beliefs, or LDS as a religion. It
was only about the Family Search program. I also acknowledge and
respect your professionalism and the high quality of your work. I am
not surprised that you pass on that high quality to others. I agree
that any such program that depends on submitted pedigrees, such as
OneWorldTree & FamilySearch, will run the gamut of abilities on the
part of the donors. My experience, so far, has been that most of the
donors whose work I have consulted have not been up to your level. I
don't really know how it could be improved in that it would be a
tremendous job to check the references for the donated pedigrees.
Best, Bronwen

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