A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from King He
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from King He
Dear Newsgroup ~
Until now, the immigrant, Alice (Freeman) Thompson, has been thought
only to possess a long meandering descent from King Alfred the Great
of England. However, I recently developed a new line of descent for
Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England. Some of the generations
below come from an article on the Vaux family in Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica, 5th ser. vol. 5 (1925): 277-279. This same Vaux family is
ancestral to the Lords Vaux of Harrowden, which family is ancestral to
another colonial immigrant, Rev. John Oxenbridge.
Interestingly, this new line would also represent an all new royal
descent for Diana Spencer, late Princess of Wales, and her sons,
Princes William and Harry, as Princess Diana is a known descendant of
Alice (Freeman) Thompson.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester.
3. William, Earl of Gloucester.
4. Amice of Gloucester, married Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Hertford, died 1217, Magna Carta baron.
5. Hawise de Clare, married Geoffrey de Say, Knt., died 1230, Magna
Carta baron.
6. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1272, married
Sibyl (allegedly Marshal).
7. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1295, married
Elizabeth _____.
8. Mary de Say, married in or before 1290 (as his 1st wife) John de
Northwode, who died in or before 1317. He married (2nd) before 1307
Agnes de Grandison, daughter of William de Grandison, Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison.
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
Buckinghamshire.
14. John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1506, married
Agnes Winslow.
15. Thomas Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1511, married
Jane (or Joan) Langston.
16. Amy Giffard, married Richard Samwell, of Edgecote,
Northamptonshire, died 1519.
17. Susanna Samwell, born c.1510, married Peter Edwards, died 1552.
18. Edward Edwards, of Altwalton, Huntingdonshire, died 1592, married
Ursula Coles.
19. Margaret Edwards, married Henry Freeman, of Cranford,
Northamptonshire.
20. Alice Freeman, died 1664, married John Thompson.
Until now, the immigrant, Alice (Freeman) Thompson, has been thought
only to possess a long meandering descent from King Alfred the Great
of England. However, I recently developed a new line of descent for
Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England. Some of the generations
below come from an article on the Vaux family in Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica, 5th ser. vol. 5 (1925): 277-279. This same Vaux family is
ancestral to the Lords Vaux of Harrowden, which family is ancestral to
another colonial immigrant, Rev. John Oxenbridge.
Interestingly, this new line would also represent an all new royal
descent for Diana Spencer, late Princess of Wales, and her sons,
Princes William and Harry, as Princess Diana is a known descendant of
Alice (Freeman) Thompson.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester.
3. William, Earl of Gloucester.
4. Amice of Gloucester, married Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Hertford, died 1217, Magna Carta baron.
5. Hawise de Clare, married Geoffrey de Say, Knt., died 1230, Magna
Carta baron.
6. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1272, married
Sibyl (allegedly Marshal).
7. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1295, married
Elizabeth _____.
8. Mary de Say, married in or before 1290 (as his 1st wife) John de
Northwode, who died in or before 1317. He married (2nd) before 1307
Agnes de Grandison, daughter of William de Grandison, Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison.
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
Buckinghamshire.
14. John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1506, married
Agnes Winslow.
15. Thomas Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1511, married
Jane (or Joan) Langston.
16. Amy Giffard, married Richard Samwell, of Edgecote,
Northamptonshire, died 1519.
17. Susanna Samwell, born c.1510, married Peter Edwards, died 1552.
18. Edward Edwards, of Altwalton, Huntingdonshire, died 1592, married
Ursula Coles.
19. Margaret Edwards, married Henry Freeman, of Cranford,
Northamptonshire.
20. Alice Freeman, died 1664, married John Thompson.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: A Proposed Descent For Alice (Freeman) Thompson From Kin
Good Show, Douglas.
Alice Freeman is also a descendant of Crinan The Thane and Gospatrick I as
well as an ancestor of Kingman Brewster.
It's yet another bastard descent for Diana and the boys as well -- this one
from Henry I -- who reportedly sired more bastards than any other English
King -- and his mistress, Sybilla Corbet.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1194374327.909811.10380@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Alice Freeman is also a descendant of Crinan The Thane and Gospatrick I as
well as an ancestor of Kingman Brewster.
It's yet another bastard descent for Diana and the boys as well -- this one
from Henry I -- who reportedly sired more bastards than any other English
King -- and his mistress, Sybilla Corbet.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1194374327.909811.10380@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Until now, the immigrant, Alice (Freeman) Thompson, has been thought
only to possess a long meandering descent from King Alfred the Great
of England. However, I recently developed a new line of descent for
Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England. Some of the generations
below come from an article on the Vaux family in Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica, 5th ser. vol. 5 (1925): 277-279. This same Vaux family is
ancestral to the Lords Vaux of Harrowden, which family is ancestral to
another colonial immigrant, Rev. John Oxenbridge.
Interestingly, this new line would also represent an all new royal
descent for Diana Spencer, late Princess of Wales, and her sons,
Princes William and Harry, as Princess Diana is a known descendant of
Alice (Freeman) Thompson.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester.
3. William, Earl of Gloucester.
4. Amice of Gloucester, married Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Hertford, died 1217, Magna Carta baron.
5. Hawise de Clare, married Geoffrey de Say, Knt., died 1230, Magna
Carta baron.
6. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1272, married
Sibyl (allegedly Marshal).
7. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1295, married
Elizabeth _____.
8. Mary de Say, married in or before 1290 (as his 1st wife) John de
Northwode, who died in or before 1317. He married (2nd) before 1307
Agnes de Grandison, daughter of William de Grandison, Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison.
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
Buckinghamshire.
14. John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1506, married
Agnes Winslow.
15. Thomas Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1511, married
Jane (or Joan) Langston.
16. Amy Giffard, married Richard Samwell, of Edgecote,
Northamptonshire, died 1519.
17. Susanna Samwell, born c.1510, married Peter Edwards, died 1552.
18. Edward Edwards, of Altwalton, Huntingdonshire, died 1592, married
Ursula Coles.
19. Margaret Edwards, married Henry Freeman, of Cranford,
Northamptonshire.
20. Alice Freeman, died 1664, married John Thompson.
-
Jack Linthicum
Re: A Proposed Descent For Alice (Freeman) Thompson From Kin
On Nov 6, 2:04 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Good Show, Douglas.
Alice Freeman is also a descendant of Crinan The Thane and Gospatrick I as
well as an ancestor of Kingman Brewster.
It's yet another bastard descent for Diana and the boys as well -- this one
from Henry I -- who reportedly sired more bastards than any other English
King -- and his mistress, Sybilla Corbet.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1194374327.909811.10380@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Until now, the immigrant, Alice (Freeman) Thompson, has been thought
only to possess a long meandering descent from King Alfred the Great
of England. However, I recently developed a new line of descent for
Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England. Some of the generations
below come from an article on the Vaux family in Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica, 5th ser. vol. 5 (1925): 277-279. This same Vaux family is
ancestral to the Lords Vaux of Harrowden, which family is ancestral to
another colonial immigrant, Rev. John Oxenbridge.
Interestingly, this new line would also represent an all new royal
descent for Diana Spencer, late Princess of Wales, and her sons,
Princes William and Harry, as Princess Diana is a known descendant of
Alice (Freeman) Thompson.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester.
3. William, Earl of Gloucester.
4. Amice of Gloucester, married Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Hertford, died 1217, Magna Carta baron.
5. Hawise de Clare, married Geoffrey de Say, Knt., died 1230, Magna
Carta baron.
6. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1272, married
Sibyl (allegedly Marshal).
7. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1295, married
Elizabeth _____.
8. Mary de Say, married in or before 1290 (as his 1st wife) John de
Northwode, who died in or before 1317. He married (2nd) before 1307
Agnes de Grandison, daughter of William de Grandison, Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison.
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
Buckinghamshire.
14. John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1506, married
Agnes Winslow.
15. Thomas Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1511, married
Jane (or Joan) Langston.
16. Amy Giffard, married Richard Samwell, of Edgecote,
Northamptonshire, died 1519.
17. Susanna Samwell, born c.1510, married Peter Edwards, died 1552.
18. Edward Edwards, of Altwalton, Huntingdonshire, died 1592, married
Ursula Coles.
19. Margaret Edwards, married Henry Freeman, of Cranford,
Northamptonshire.
20. Alice Freeman, died 1664, married John Thompson.
-
wjhonson
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 10:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
-----------------------
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
-
John Brandon
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester.
3. William, Earl of Gloucester.
4. Amice of Gloucester, married Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of
Hertford, died 1217, Magna Carta baron.
5. Hawise de Clare, married Geoffrey de Say, Knt., died 1230, Magna
Carta baron.
6. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1272, married
Sibyl (allegedly Marshal).
7. William de Say, Knt., of Edmonton, Middlesex, died 1295, married
Elizabeth _____.
8. Mary de Say, married in or before 1290 (as his 1st wife) John de
Northwode, who died in or before 1317. He married (2nd) before 1307
Agnes de Grandison, daughter of William de Grandison, Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison.
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
Buckinghamshire.
14. John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1506, married
Agnes Winslow.
15. Thomas Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, died 1511, married
Jane (or Joan) Langston.
16. Amy Giffard, married Richard Samwell, of Edgecote,
Northamptonshire, died 1519.
17. Susanna Samwell, born c.1510, married Peter Edwards, died 1552.
18. Edward Edwards, of Altwalton, Huntingdonshire, died 1592, married
Ursula Coles.
19. Margaret Edwards, married Henry Freeman, of Cranford,
Northamptonshire.
20. Alice Freeman, died 1664, married John Thompson.
If correct, this line would also be valid for William Sargent of
Charlestown, Malden, and Barnstable.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
It would also be ancestral to Thomas Booth, of Virginia, who allegedly
descends from Isabel Vaux, wife of Thomas Tresham, who was the sister
of Eleanor Vaux, wife of Thomas Giffard.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Nov 6, 1:44 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<
< If correct, this line would also be valid for William Sargent of
< Charlestown, Malden, and Barnstable.
descends from Isabel Vaux, wife of Thomas Tresham, who was the sister
of Eleanor Vaux, wife of Thomas Giffard.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Nov 6, 1:44 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<
< If correct, this line would also be valid for William Sargent of
< Charlestown, Malden, and Barnstable.
-
Gjest
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 2:18 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Citing what evidence? That is, what in the 1930 genealogy is cited
that shows this to be the case, or is this just an unsubstantiated
statement by that author?
On Nov 6, 10:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
-----------------------
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
Citing what evidence? That is, what in the 1930 genealogy is cited
that shows this to be the case, or is this just an unsubstantiated
statement by that author?
-
Gjest
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 11:18 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Well Will,
You left out a generation or should I say C Wickliffe Throckmorton
left out a generation. See Miscellanea Genealogies et Heraldica and
the British Archivist, Edited by A.W. Hughes Clark 5th Series vol 5
1923-1925 pages 277 for Vaux of Harrowden page 278 for Thirning of
Harrowden and page 279 for Wileby/Drakelowe.
Mike Welch
On Nov 6, 10:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
-----------------------
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
Well Will,
You left out a generation or should I say C Wickliffe Throckmorton
left out a generation. See Miscellanea Genealogies et Heraldica and
the British Archivist, Edited by A.W. Hughes Clark 5th Series vol 5
1923-1925 pages 277 for Vaux of Harrowden page 278 for Thirning of
Harrowden and page 279 for Wileby/Drakelowe.
Mike Welch
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
Dear Newsgroup ~
The contemporary PRO petition copied proves that the wife of Elias de
Vaux was definitely Elizabeth, widow of John Joce, of Essex. This
same wife is given to Elias de Vaux in the Vaux pedigree published in
Misc. Gen. & Heraldica, 5th Ser. 5 (1922-1925): 277-301, 342-362. So
I'm sure this information is correct.
The parentage of Elizabeth (de Northwode) (Joce) de Vaux is discussed
by VCH Cambridge, 6 (1978): 84. This account concerns the descent of
the manor of Great Linton, Cambridgeshire, which originally belonged
to the Lords Say. This manor was settled in 1290 by Sir William de
Say (died 1295) on John de Northwode, 1st Lord Northwode, and his
wife, Joan, evidently for the benefit of their respective children who
were to marry, namely Say's daughter, Mary, and Northwode's son and
heir apparent, John [see Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. Cambridge
(1891): 59]. The younger John de Northwode and Mary de Say evidently
had two daughters, before Mary died sometime before 1307. One of them
was Elizabeth de Northwode, wife successively of John Joce and Elias
de Vaux.
Elizabeth de Northwode and her first husband, John Joce, conveyed a ½
share of the manor of Great Linton, Cambridgeshire in 1319-1320 to
William le Bustlere, of Hildersham, Margaret his wife, and Robert
their son [Reference: Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. Cambridge
(1891): 86].
For a view of the two Cambridgeshire fines in questions, see the
weblink below:
http://books.google.com/books?id=d5g0AA ... m#PPA59,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=d5g0AA ... m#PPA86,M1
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Reference: National Archives Catalogue
SC 8/164/8155
Petitioners: Ellis de Vaus (Vaux) and [Elizabeth de Vaux], his wife.
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Alvithele (Aveley), Essex; London.
Other people mentioned: Earl of Warenne; John de Breaunzoun; John de
Triplet, merchant of London; John Joce; Bartholomew de Badlesmere;
[Thomas of Lancaster], Earl of Lancaster.
Nature of request: The petitioner request that they be restored to
certain rights relating to the manor of Aveley, Essex, originally
granted to Elizabeth's former husband by Earl Warenne, and in the
king's hands following the death of Joce.
Endorsement: [Notes of process, largely illegible.]
Covering dates [c. 1322]
Note Dated on the guard to c. 1322, with reference to the related
inquisition and later writ. Presumably the petition formed part of the
same process.
The contemporary PRO petition copied proves that the wife of Elias de
Vaux was definitely Elizabeth, widow of John Joce, of Essex. This
same wife is given to Elias de Vaux in the Vaux pedigree published in
Misc. Gen. & Heraldica, 5th Ser. 5 (1922-1925): 277-301, 342-362. So
I'm sure this information is correct.
The parentage of Elizabeth (de Northwode) (Joce) de Vaux is discussed
by VCH Cambridge, 6 (1978): 84. This account concerns the descent of
the manor of Great Linton, Cambridgeshire, which originally belonged
to the Lords Say. This manor was settled in 1290 by Sir William de
Say (died 1295) on John de Northwode, 1st Lord Northwode, and his
wife, Joan, evidently for the benefit of their respective children who
were to marry, namely Say's daughter, Mary, and Northwode's son and
heir apparent, John [see Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. Cambridge
(1891): 59]. The younger John de Northwode and Mary de Say evidently
had two daughters, before Mary died sometime before 1307. One of them
was Elizabeth de Northwode, wife successively of John Joce and Elias
de Vaux.
Elizabeth de Northwode and her first husband, John Joce, conveyed a ½
share of the manor of Great Linton, Cambridgeshire in 1319-1320 to
William le Bustlere, of Hildersham, Margaret his wife, and Robert
their son [Reference: Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. Cambridge
(1891): 86].
For a view of the two Cambridgeshire fines in questions, see the
weblink below:
http://books.google.com/books?id=d5g0AA ... m#PPA59,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=d5g0AA ... m#PPA86,M1
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Reference: National Archives Catalogue
SC 8/164/8155
Petitioners: Ellis de Vaus (Vaux) and [Elizabeth de Vaux], his wife.
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Alvithele (Aveley), Essex; London.
Other people mentioned: Earl of Warenne; John de Breaunzoun; John de
Triplet, merchant of London; John Joce; Bartholomew de Badlesmere;
[Thomas of Lancaster], Earl of Lancaster.
Nature of request: The petitioner request that they be restored to
certain rights relating to the manor of Aveley, Essex, originally
granted to Elizabeth's former husband by Earl Warenne, and in the
king's hands following the death of Joce.
Endorsement: [Notes of process, largely illegible.]
Covering dates [c. 1322]
Note Dated on the guard to c. 1322, with reference to the related
inquisition and later writ. Presumably the petition formed part of the
same process.
-
Gjest
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 11:18 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Well Will
In all sources other than C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Elias de Vaux wife
is given as Elizabeth widow of Sir John Joce of Co. Essex. So can you
list the source he used for this deduction if not I would say Mr.
Throckmorton combined generations. As the his work was mainly on the
Throckmorton family.
Mike Welch
On Nov 6, 10:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Proposed Line of Descent
9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex; married
(2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
died c.1330.
10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367, died
before 1373, married Joan _____.
11. William de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1380-1,
married Joan Thirning.
12. William Vaux, of Northampton, Northamptonshire and Bottisham,
Cambridgeshire, died 1405, married Eleanor Drakelowe.
13. Eleanor Vaux, married Thomas Giffard, died 1468, of Twyford,
-----------------------
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
Well Will
In all sources other than C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Elias de Vaux wife
is given as Elizabeth widow of Sir John Joce of Co. Essex. So can you
list the source he used for this deduction if not I would say Mr.
Throckmorton combined generations. As the his work was mainly on the
Throckmorton family.
Mike Welch
-
Gjest
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
Please note - this thread is being spewed across the internet. Do not
respond without removing all of the irrelevant groups.
respond without removing all of the irrelevant groups.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 11:38 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
< 9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex;
married
< (2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
< died c.1330.
< 10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367,
died
< before 1373, married Joan _____.
Mr. Moriarty's excellent article on the Vaux family published in
Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 5th ser., vol. 5 (1923-1925):
360-361 states that Elias de Vaux "married soon after 1322, Elizabeth,
widow of John Joce, and formerly the wife of John de Brianzon, who
died prior to 1316. He appears as a landowner at Bottisham
[Cambridgeshire] in 1326 and 1327." END OF QUOTE.
So far, so good.
However, regarding the William de Vaux in the next generation and his
parentage, Mr. Moriarty says the following on pg. 360 of his article:
A William de Vaux "appears in the Bottisham Court Roll of 13 Oct. 1366
(Court Roll, 155/52). He was dead by 1372-3, when his son William and
his widow, Joan, purchased land in Bottisham (Bod. Chart. Kent, 115b),
and in the Cambridge Assize, after Easter, 1375 ... Who his father,
whom I shall call William Vaux I., was, cannot be determined with
certaintly, but I think we may say with a fair amount of assurance
that he was either a third son of Sir John and a brother of Thomas and
Edmund [de Vaux], or else that he was a son of Sir John's brother
Elias [de Vaux]. Personally, I think the chances greatly favour his
being the son of Sir John, whose children were closely identified with
Bottisham, whereas Elias disappears from Bottisham records after 1327
(Camb. Feet of Fines, Case 27, File 64, No. 1, supra)." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, if Mr. Moriarty is correct, then there is no evidence which
indicates the parentage of William de Vaux, Generation 10. His
father may be Elias de Vaux, Generation 9, or not. So the proposed
line of descent of Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England has hit
a serious snag, it being the lack of evidence to prove the connection
between one generation and the next.
If anyone has additional particulars which might shed additional light
on this problem, I'd appreciate hearing from them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< 9. Elizabeth de Northwode, married (1st) John Joce; of Essex;
married
< (2nd) c.1322 Elias (or Ellis) de Vaux, of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire,
< died c.1330.
< 10. William de Vaux, of Boittisham, Cambridgeshire, living 1367,
died
< before 1373, married Joan _____.
Mr. Moriarty's excellent article on the Vaux family published in
Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 5th ser., vol. 5 (1923-1925):
360-361 states that Elias de Vaux "married soon after 1322, Elizabeth,
widow of John Joce, and formerly the wife of John de Brianzon, who
died prior to 1316. He appears as a landowner at Bottisham
[Cambridgeshire] in 1326 and 1327." END OF QUOTE.
So far, so good.
However, regarding the William de Vaux in the next generation and his
parentage, Mr. Moriarty says the following on pg. 360 of his article:
A William de Vaux "appears in the Bottisham Court Roll of 13 Oct. 1366
(Court Roll, 155/52). He was dead by 1372-3, when his son William and
his widow, Joan, purchased land in Bottisham (Bod. Chart. Kent, 115b),
and in the Cambridge Assize, after Easter, 1375 ... Who his father,
whom I shall call William Vaux I., was, cannot be determined with
certaintly, but I think we may say with a fair amount of assurance
that he was either a third son of Sir John and a brother of Thomas and
Edmund [de Vaux], or else that he was a son of Sir John's brother
Elias [de Vaux]. Personally, I think the chances greatly favour his
being the son of Sir John, whose children were closely identified with
Bottisham, whereas Elias disappears from Bottisham records after 1327
(Camb. Feet of Fines, Case 27, File 64, No. 1, supra)." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, if Mr. Moriarty is correct, then there is no evidence which
indicates the parentage of William de Vaux, Generation 10. His
father may be Elias de Vaux, Generation 9, or not. So the proposed
line of descent of Alice Freeman from King Henry I of England has hit
a serious snag, it being the lack of evidence to prove the connection
between one generation and the next.
If anyone has additional particulars which might shed additional light
on this problem, I'd appreciate hearing from them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
wjhonson
Re: A proposed descent for Alice (Freeman) Thompson from Kin
On Nov 6, 3:13 pm, harv2.law...@gmail.com wrote:
------------------
Sorry I did not copy out the details, only the claim. At this point
in the game, we're posting claims and counter-claims. *If* we get to
the point, in this thread, of citing and quoting, then we'll see which
author has the better logic.
Will Johnson
On Nov 6, 2:18 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
-----------------------
"A Genealogical and Historical Account of the Throckmorton family in
England and the United States", by C Wickliffe Throckmorton. Old
Dominion Press, Richmond VA. 1930
states that the mother of William de Vaux of Harrowden (etc) (who was
the son of Elias de Vaux) was not Elizabeth de Northwode, but rather
Anne Tuning
Will Johnson
Citing what evidence? That is, what in the 1930 genealogy is cited
that shows this to be the case, or is this just an unsubstantiated
statement by that author?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
------------------
Sorry I did not copy out the details, only the claim. At this point
in the game, we're posting claims and counter-claims. *If* we get to
the point, in this thread, of citing and quoting, then we'll see which
author has the better logic.
Will Johnson
-
John Brandon
Beatrix (---) (Bassingbourne) Besford
Ah shucks, Douglas.
But, anyway, this thread got me looking into some of the obscure
gentry lines behind theThrockmortons and Giffords. _Ancestral Roots_
shows that these people should be descendants of an Alexander Besford
by his wife "Beatrice (? Lech, or ? de Thorndon)."
http://books.google.com/books?id=XLqEWw ... QpRMGwKgxo
It looks like Beatrice was the widow of Sir Thomas de Bassingbourne.
Does that help anyboyd place her?
http://books.google.com/books?id=WWAJAA ... x#PPA34,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=tVMJAA ... +alexandri
But, anyway, this thread got me looking into some of the obscure
gentry lines behind theThrockmortons and Giffords. _Ancestral Roots_
shows that these people should be descendants of an Alexander Besford
by his wife "Beatrice (? Lech, or ? de Thorndon)."
http://books.google.com/books?id=XLqEWw ... QpRMGwKgxo
It looks like Beatrice was the widow of Sir Thomas de Bassingbourne.
Does that help anyboyd place her?
http://books.google.com/books?id=WWAJAA ... x#PPA34,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=tVMJAA ... +alexandri
-
John Brandon
Re: Beatrix (---) (Bassingbourne) Besford
It looks to me like the link below might actually support the Corbet-
Harley-Besford line dismissed in _Ancestral Roots_, but what do I
know ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=GeArAA ... r+besforde
Harley-Besford line dismissed in _Ancestral Roots_, but what do I
know ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=GeArAA ... r+besforde
-
John Brandon
Re: Beatrix (---) (Bassingbourne) Besford
Joan (Corbet) Harley apparently had a second husband, de Arras ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPUGAA ... 22+johanna
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPUGAA ... 22+johanna
-
Gjest
Re: Beatrix (---) (Bassingbourne) Besford
On Nov 7, 1:15 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I recall there being two contemporary Joan de Harleys, frequently
confused in sources, and I think the Besford connected one and the
Corbet one are different, but often confused. There was an article on
this in TG 15 or so years ago.
taf
It looks to me like the link below might actually support the Corbet-
Harley-Besford line dismissed in _Ancestral Roots_, but what do I
know ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=GeArAA ... joan+de+...
I recall there being two contemporary Joan de Harleys, frequently
confused in sources, and I think the Besford connected one and the
Corbet one are different, but often confused. There was an article on
this in TG 15 or so years ago.
taf
-
John Brandon
Re: Beatrix (---) (Bassingbourne) Besford
I recall there being two contemporary Joan de Harleys, frequently
confused in sources, and I think the Besford connected one and the
Corbet one are different, but often confused. There was an article on
this in TG 15 or so years ago.
taf
Yeah, Todd, I think you are correct about this, from what I can tell
from the archives.
Does anybody think anything can be inferred about the family
connections of Alexadner and Beatrice from the fact of their inclusion
in that obit. role of the Priors of Durham?