Isabel, wife of Neil of Carrick: a conjecture

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John P. Ravilious

Isabel, wife of Neil of Carrick: a conjecture

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 26 okt 2007 03:54:35

Thursday, 25 October, 2007


Hello All,

The career of Neil, Earl of Carrick (d. 1256) is
poorly known, and that of his wife is even less so.
Widely identified as Margaret Stewart [1], she has been
identified as Isabel in what little evidence there is:
sadly, without notice of her parentage [2].

Based on a group of dispensations, I have conjectured
that Isabel was in fact a younger daughter of William
Comyn by his 2nd wife Marjory, Countess of Buchan. The
relationships involve two sets of marriages: those of
Joanna de Menteith (countess of Stathearn by her first
husband, Earl Malise) and her subsequent husbands, John
Campbell, Sir Maurice Murray, and William, Earl of
Sutherland; and the two marriages of the aforesaid
William, Earl of Sutherland with (1) Margaret, younger
daughter of Robert _the_ Bruce, King of Scots by his 2nd
wife Elizabeth de Burgh, and (2) Joan, as noted above.

The mandate for dispensation of the marriage of
William, earl of Sutherland and Joan de Menteith, dated
at Avignon, 5 Id. Nov. [9 Nov.] 1347 states:

' To the bishop of Caithness. Mandate to dispense
William, earl of Sothyrland, and Joan, countess of
Strathern, who intermarried in ignorance of the
impediment by reason of the fourth degree of affinity
between them, Joan having first married John, earl of
Athol, and on his death Maurice de Moravia, earl [of
Strathern], on whose death she was married to
William, these three successive husbands being
related to one another in the fourth degree of
kindred. They remain in the said marriage, and
their past and future offspring is declared
legitimate. '[3]

The foregoing agrees with the dispensation for Joan's
marriage to Maurice de Moravia in 1339, also for a
relationship in the 4th degree of affinity [4]. Added to
this, we have the dispensation for the first marriage of
William, Earl of Sutherland, to Margaret de Bruce, dated
at Avignon, Kal. Dec. [1 Dec] 1342:

' To the bishop of Caithness. Mandate to grant a
dispensation to William, earl of Sothirlande, and
Margaret, sister of David, king of Scots, to
intermarry, notwithstanding that they are related
in the fourth degree of kindred.
[Theiner, 278.] ' [5]

While the relationship of Sir Maurice de Moravia (or
Murray) has not yet been resolved, these relationships
are evidently from common descent from William Comyn and
Marjory of Buchan as shown in the following chart:

[NOTE: the following is conjectural, and
intended for discussion purposes]


William Comyn = 2) Marjory
E of Buchan I C of Buchan
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _I_________________________________
I I I I I I
Isabel = Neil Alexander Comyn Elizabeth <sibs>
I E of E of Buchan = William
I Carrick d. 1290 E of Mar
_____I________ __I___ I
I I I I I I I I I
Marjory <sibs> Donald
C of Carrick E of Mar
= Robert de Brus d. ca. 1297
d. 1304 I
__I_______________ _____________I____
I I I I I I
Mary Robert <sibs> Marjory
= Sir Neil _the_ Bruce = Kenneth
Campbell K of Scots E of
d. 1316 = 2) Elizabeth Sutherland
I de Burgh ________I
I I___________________ I _______
I____ I I
I I <II>
1) John = Joanna = 2) Maurice = 3) William = Margaret
Campbell Murray E of Bruce
E of E of Sutherland
Athol Strathearn d. 1371
k. 1333 k. 1346


The foregoing is valid only under certain assumptions.
For one, the previous position that Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (1st husband of Joan de Menteith) was the son
of Margaret Comyn (a daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of
Buchan) would be in error, otherwise his exclusion from
the dispensed relationships would be inexplicable. He
was then, it seems, the son of the first wife (Emma)
whose parentage is unknown. There are also other
relationships which, under this reconstruction, would
either (A) have required dispensations which are not
known to exist, or (B) would now require reevaluation
[e.g., the dispensation for Edward Bruce and Isabel of
Ross].

I discussed the foregoing in some detail with Andrew
B. W. MacEwen. He stated he had entertained the
possibility of this parentage for Isabel some time ago,
but is currently working under another theory as to her
parentage.

Should anyone have additional documentation that
bears on these matters, or have relevant comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.

Cheers,

John *





NOTES

[1] ' Margaret [dau. of Alexander, Steward of Scotland],
who is said to have been married to Nigel or Neil of
Galloway, Earl of Carrick ' [SP I:12 ]. The same
identification is given in SP II:426 in the
article on the Earls of Carrick, citing Duncan
Stewart's History of the Stewarts, p. 49.

[2] With reference to Saddell priory, Cosmo Innes wrote,
' About the same period [ca. 1257], Nigel and Isobel,
Earl and Countess of Carrik, granted to the monks [of
Saddell] the two pennylands of Kildonune and
Creisboig in that earldom.' [Origines Parochiales
Scotiae II(1):23, cites Reg. Mag. Sig., lib. xiv.
no. 806].

[3] W. H. Bliss and C. Johnson, eds., Calendar of
Entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great
Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters, Vol. III,
A.D. 1342-1362 (London: printed for Her Majesty's
Stationery Office by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1897),
p. 264.

[4] Dispensation granted at Avignon, 5 Id. July
[11 July] 1339:
' To the bishop of Dunblane. Mandate to grant a
dispensation to Maurice de Moravia, lord of
Brunsergarthen, and Jean, countess of S[t]arthen,
of his diocese, to intermarry; notwithstanding that
John, earl of Athol, Jean's first husband, was
related to Maurice in the third degree of kindred.
[Theiner, 275]' [Bliss, Cal. Entries in the
Papal Registers: Papal Letters II:546]

[5] Bliss, Cal. Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal
Letters III:68. See also SP VIII:327, which cites
'Additional MSS. British Museum, 15,371, f. 125.'


* John P. Ravilious

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