children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, Thoma

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M.Sjostrom

children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, Thoma

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 10 okt 2007 14:46:32

A couple months ago I observed that GORGES, Helena
(nee Snakenborg) has her own entry in the newest issue
of the vol 22 of Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography.
It would be nice if someone could scan and post that
little biography in electric form. I have a
recollection that there was some things basically
wrong with the article's claims about her medieval
ancestries, but I cannot recall exactly what it read.
However, were I to see it again, I would check it
against my materials about Scandinavian medieval
genealogies, and, no doubt, give a piece of mind.



Helena Ulfsdotter Snakenborg, Marchioness of
Northampton (1549-d 10 April 1635) [ODNB XXII pp
994..995], married firstly William Parr, 1st Marquess
of Northampton, d 1571, married secondly privy
councillor and knight Thomas Gorges, of Langford
(founder of Longford Castle in Wiltshire) (1536-d 30
March 1610). Children of the second marriage:

1 Elizabeth Gorges (1578-1659) [ODNB XXII p 994],
married firstly sir Hugh Smyth, of Ashton, d 1627,
married secondly sir Ferdinando Gorges, of Maine
(c1565-1647)

2 Francis Gorges (bc 1579, predeceased father, c
1599) [ODNB XXII p 994]

3 Frances Gorges (1580-1649) [ODNB XXII p 994],
married sir Thomas Tyringham, of Tyringham (c
1580-c1637)

4 sir Edward Gorges, baronet of Langford, 1st baron
of Dundalk (c1582-c1652) [ODNB XXII p 994]

5 sir Theobald Gorges, of Ashley (1583-1648) [ODNB
XXII p 994]

6 Bridget Gorges (1584-c1634) [ODNB XXII p 994],
married sir Robert Phelipes, of Montacute (1586-1638)

7 sir Robert Gorges, of Redlynch (1588-1648) [ODNB
XXII p 994]

8 sir Thomas Gorges (1589- d after 1624) [ODNB XXII p
994]

According to ODNB, IIRC at the time of Helena, she had
nearly a hundred her own descendants alive.
(It would be a funny statistical exercise to estimate
how big a portion of the current population of the
British Isles descend from her, there having been
almost four centuries between her death and the
present day.)

Helena's second husband, sir Thomas Gorges, of
Langford (1536-d 30 March 1610), a privy councillor of
Elizabeth I, appears to have been one of younger sons
of sir Edward Gorges (of ? Wraxall, Somerset), c1482 -
c1565, who himself was maternal grandson of sir John
Howard, 1st duke of Norfolk.
I have no reason to doubt the historicity of this
lineage, but I have not checked its veracity, only
read some very general British genealogy about the
matter.

This made sir Thomas Gorges a fairly close kinsman of
his liege lady, queen Elizabeth I; namely the queen
was sir Thomas' second cousin once removed (Anne
Boleyn was his exact second cousin).





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Henry Soszynski

Re: children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, T

Legg inn av Henry Soszynski » 11 okt 2007 13:17:15

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 04:46:32 -0700 (PDT), "M.Sjostrom"
<qsj5@yahoo.com> wrote:

A couple months ago I observed that GORGES, Helena
(nee Snakenborg) has her own entry in the newest issue
of the vol 22 of Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography.
It would be nice if someone could scan and post that
little biography in electric form. I have a
recollection that there was some things basically
wrong with the article's claims about her medieval
ancestries, but I cannot recall exactly what it read.
However, were I to see it again, I would check it
against my materials about Scandinavian medieval
genealogies, and, no doubt, give a piece of mind.




I don't have access to the DNB, but following is what I have found on
the internet (for her father)

1 Ulf Henriksson SNAKENBORG-BÅÅT +8-Jan-1583
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Henrik Erlandsson SNAKENBORG-BÅÅT
3 Elin Ulfsdottir Roos
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Erland Pedersson BÅÅT +Bef 1490
5 Gertrude Birgersdottir Sparre
6 Ulf Pedersson ROOS
7 Brigitta Jönsdottir
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Peder Jönsson BÅÅT + 1442
9 Elin Henriksdottir Snakenborg +1433
10 Birger Niclisson SPARRE
11 Brita Isaacsdottir Banér
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 Jöns Pedersson BÅÅT
17 Ingeborg Ormsdottir
18 Henrik Gerhardsson SNAKENBORG +Aft 1413
20 Niclis Birgersson SPARRE +1426
22 ISAAC Isaacsson Banér
23 Märta Siggesdottir Brun +Abt 1452
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 Peder Jönsson BÅÅT +1349
33 Kristina Hemmingsdottir
36 Gerhard Gerhardsson SNAKENBORG+Aft 1402
37 Kristina Bengtsdottir Bielke +1386
40 BIRGER Gustavsson (Sparre)
44 ISAAC Björnsson Banér +18-Feb-1405
45 Gertrud Andersdottir


Its a bit 'dirty', the surnames are presumed, the accents might not
come through and the dates are approximate. Comments welcome.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski

John Brandon

Re: children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, T

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 okt 2007 15:14:40

According to ODNB, IIRC at the time of Helena [death], she had
nearly a hundred her own descendants alive.
(It would be a funny statistical exercise to estimate
how big a portion of the current population of the
British Isles descend from her, there having been
almost four centuries between her death and the
present day.)

Why that's nothing. Hester (Sandys) Temple had 700 direct descendants
living at the time of her death in 1656.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 11 okt 2007 15:54:54

In article <1192112080.792791.15610@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
John Brandon <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

According to ODNB, IIRC at the time of Helena [death], she had
nearly a hundred her own descendants alive.

Why that's nothing. Hester (Sandys) Temple had 700 direct descendants
living at the time of her death in 1656.

I see this claim, mentioned in various annotated editions of Pepys (vide
google books), attributed to Fuller's _History of the Worthies of
England_ (1662): "Hester Sandys, the wife of Sir Thomas Temple, of
Stowe, Bart., had four sons and nine daughters, which lived to be
married, and so exceedingly multiplied, that she saw seven hundred
extracted from her body. Besides, there was a new generation of
marriageable females just at her death."

Has anyone traced them, to see if it's true?

Who can name others (medieval or early modern) with such a combination
of status, fecundity, longevity & chance?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

John Brandon

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 okt 2007 16:10:49

" .... but when we are assured that Hester Temple saw seven hundred
descendants, their identity is not very easily ascertained."

http://books.google.com/books?id=ycMMAA ... hundred%22

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 12 okt 2007 06:16:15

On 11 Oct, 16:10, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
" .... but when we are assured that Hester Temple saw seven hundred
descendants, their identity is not very easily ascertained."

http://books.google.com/books?id=ycMMAA ... hen+we+a...

My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months.

John Matthews

John Brandon

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 okt 2007 17:12:08

As I noted a few years back, Nichols' _Leicestershire_, 4: 2: 958,
"Extracts from the Register of Sibbesdon [Leics.]," has records for
the Stowe Temple family interspersed with the Temple family of Temple
Hall [Leics.], who claimed a distant relationship with the Stowe group
(and shared a strong Puritanism with them, as well). Under BAPTISMS,
we find

1587. Susan, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Sept. 5.
1589. Hester, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 13.
1592. Peter, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Oct. 10.
1593. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 10.
1594. Martha, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 9.
1597. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 26.
1599. Katharine, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 15.
1602. Fanna[sic] - Sibilla, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. born ____
21, baptized the 24th.
1604. Thomas, son of sir Thomas Temple, knt. April 13.
1614. Thomas, son of sir John Temple, knt. Jan. 10.
1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17.
1617. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 14.
1619. Hester, daughter of sir John Temple. Sept. 5.
1620. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 6.
1622. Edmund, son of sir John Temple. June 6.
1623. Mary, daughter of of sir John Temple. Aug. 5.

The BURIALS (far fewer in number), while showing that Jana-Sibilla was
buried 8 Feb. 1602 [? sic], do not include a John, son of Thomas.
However, the baptism of the second John in 1597 may lend credibility
to Linda Levy Peck's statement that John (b. 1593) died "at two
months."

The Thomas, son of Sir John, baptised in 1614, is usually said to be
Sir Thomas of New England and Nova Scotia. Yet it's quite a stretch
if he was really the son of John (b. 1597), who was apparently already
a knight at age 17. And, supposedly, Sir Thomas T. of New England,
bapt. 1614, was not even the eldest son of John (b. 1597)!

John Brandon

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 okt 2007 17:49:37

The Thomas, son of Sir John, baptised in 1614, is usually said to be
Sir Thomas of New England and Nova Scotia. Yet it's quite a stretch
if he was really the son of John (b. 1597), who was apparently already
a knight at age 17. And, supposedly, Sir Thomas T. of New England,
bapt. 1614, was not even the eldest son of John (b. 1597)!

I believe the elder brother of Thomas Temple of N.E. was called Peter,
and we find in the extracted IGI

Ashby De La Zouch, Leicester
--Pettor Temple, son of John, bapt. 19 July 1612

If the father was John, son of Thomas and Hester (Sandys) Temple, he
(the child's father) would be aged 20 at the child's birth if born in
1592, or only 15 if born 1597!

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 13 okt 2007 08:16:42

On 12 Oct, 06:27, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 10/11/07 22:20:28 Pacific Daylight Time, rjmatsleep...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months. >> -------------------

-------------------------------
What is the source that they had a son John who died in 1592 aged 2 months ?
Peter Temple is called their eldest son and its known that sir John was baptised 10 Nov 1593

That doesn't leave a lot of room for another son.

My source for the information about John Temple who died aged 2 months
is a memorial inscription in Stowe church. Since I was mainly
concerned with commenting on the question as to whether all 700
descendents of Hester were still alive when she died, I didn't check
my notes. I'll go back and look at them. My recollection is that the
parents are not mentioned, but as far as I can remember, Thomas and
Hester were the only Temples producing children at Stowe at the time.
It was more common to name an eldest son for his grandfather (John)
than for his great grandfather (Peter).

John Matthews

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 13 okt 2007 08:16:42

On 12 Oct, 06:27, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 10/11/07 22:20:28 Pacific Daylight Time, rjmatsleep...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months. >> -------------------

-------------------------------
What is the source that they had a son John who died in 1592 aged 2 months ?
Peter Temple is called their eldest son and its known that sir John was baptised 10 Nov 1593

That doesn't leave a lot of room for another son.

My source for the information about John Temple who died aged 2 months
is a memorial inscription in Stowe church. Since I was mainly
concerned with commenting on the question as to whether all 700
descendents of Hester were still alive when she died, I didn't check
my notes. I'll go back and look at them. My recollection is that the
parents are not mentioned, but as far as I can remember, Thomas and
Hester were the only Temples producing children at Stowe at the time.
It was more common to name an eldest son for his grandfather (John)
than for his great grandfather (Peter).

John Matthews

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 13 okt 2007 08:16:42

On 12 Oct, 06:27, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 10/11/07 22:20:28 Pacific Daylight Time, rjmatsleep...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months. >> -------------------

-------------------------------
What is the source that they had a son John who died in 1592 aged 2 months ?
Peter Temple is called their eldest son and its known that sir John was baptised 10 Nov 1593

That doesn't leave a lot of room for another son.

My source for the information about John Temple who died aged 2 months
is a memorial inscription in Stowe church. Since I was mainly
concerned with commenting on the question as to whether all 700
descendents of Hester were still alive when she died, I didn't check
my notes. I'll go back and look at them. My recollection is that the
parents are not mentioned, but as far as I can remember, Thomas and
Hester were the only Temples producing children at Stowe at the time.
It was more common to name an eldest son for his grandfather (John)
than for his great grandfather (Peter).

John Matthews

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 13 okt 2007 08:16:42

On 12 Oct, 06:27, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 10/11/07 22:20:28 Pacific Daylight Time, rjmatsleep...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months. >> -------------------

-------------------------------
What is the source that they had a son John who died in 1592 aged 2 months ?
Peter Temple is called their eldest son and its known that sir John was baptised 10 Nov 1593

That doesn't leave a lot of room for another son.

My source for the information about John Temple who died aged 2 months
is a memorial inscription in Stowe church. Since I was mainly
concerned with commenting on the question as to whether all 700
descendents of Hester were still alive when she died, I didn't check
my notes. I'll go back and look at them. My recollection is that the
parents are not mentioned, but as far as I can remember, Thomas and
Hester were the only Temples producing children at Stowe at the time.
It was more common to name an eldest son for his grandfather (John)
than for his great grandfather (Peter).

John Matthews

John Matthews

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av John Matthews » 13 okt 2007 08:28:21

On 12 Oct, 17:12, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
As I noted a few years back, Nichols' _Leicestershire_, 4: 2: 958,
"Extracts from the Register of Sibbesdon [Leics.]," has records for
the Stowe Temple family interspersed with the Temple family of Temple
Hall [Leics.], who claimed a distant relationship with the Stowe group
(and shared a strong Puritanism with them, as well). Under BAPTISMS,
we find

1587. Susan, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Sept. 5.
1589. Hester, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 13.
1592. Peter, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Oct. 10.
1593. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 10.
1594. Martha, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 9.
1597. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 26.
1599. Katharine, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 15.
1602. Fanna[sic] - Sibilla, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. born ____
21, baptized the 24th.
1604. Thomas, son of sir Thomas Temple, knt. April 13.
1614. Thomas, son of sir John Temple, knt. Jan. 10.
1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17.
1617. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 14.
1619. Hester, daughter of sir John Temple. Sept. 5.
1620. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 6.
1622. Edmund, son of sir John Temple. June 6.
1623. Mary, daughter of of sir John Temple. Aug. 5.

The BURIALS (far fewer in number), while showing that Jana-Sibilla was
buried 8 Feb. 1602 [? sic], do not include a John, son of Thomas.
However, the baptism of the second John in 1597 may lend credibility
to Linda Levy Peck's statement that John (b. 1593) died "at two
months."

The Thomas, son of Sir John, baptised in 1614, is usually said to be
Sir Thomas of New England and Nova Scotia. Yet it's quite a stretch
if he was really the son of John (b. 1597), who was apparently already
a knight at age 17. And, supposedly, Sir Thomas T. of New England,
bapt. 1614, was not even the eldest son of John (b. 1597)!

There is something odd about the baptisms and burials in Nichols'
Leicestershire. As you say, they are listed as being from Sibbesdon,
although a number seem to have been copied from Stowe. There are
discrepencies on dates and in some cases names. For example, the
burial of Martha Penistone appears in Nichols and the registers at
Stowe, although the date is slightly different. There seems little
doubt that she was actually buried at Stowe where there is a
magnificent memorial. Similarly, the first baptism of a child of
"Alexander Temple, gent", matches the entry from Stowe for Sir
Alexander Temple's eldest son, John, although the dates differ by a
few days. I believe Nichols was not published until the 19th century.
I wonder whether Nichols' notes became confused when he prepared his
book for publication.

John Matthews

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 okt 2007 12:17:53

In article <1192260501.410866.233000@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
John Matthews <rjmatsleepers@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

There is something odd about the baptisms and burials in Nichols'
Leicestershire. As you say, they are listed as being from Sibbesdon,
although a number seem to have been copied from Stowe. There are
discrepencies on dates and in some cases names. For example, the
burial of Martha Penistone appears in Nichols and the registers at
Stowe, although the date is slightly different. There seems little
doubt that she was actually buried at Stowe where there is a
magnificent memorial. Similarly, the first baptism of a child of
"Alexander Temple, gent", matches the entry from Stowe for Sir
Alexander Temple's eldest son, John, although the dates differ by a
few days. I believe Nichols was not published until the 19th century.
I wonder whether Nichols' notes became confused when he prepared his
book for publication.

My experience with parish records (allegedly) transcribed by Nichols is
that many cannot be found in their purported source. Not sure what to
make of that, but carelessness with his notes is certainly top of the
list.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

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