Ida de Tosny's parentage

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Leo van de Pas

Ida de Tosny's parentage

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 09 okt 2007 13:32:56

This is what I further received :

Dear Leo

I have just seen the post from John Ravilious about the question of Ida's parentage. I don't entirely agree with John's reasoning. Names were chosen for other causes apart from repeating those found in a baby's pedigree. Margaret Bigod might have been named after her maternal grandmother, certainly, but for all we know she could have been named after her mother's sister-in-law, who might have been her godmother. The mere occurrence of a name cannot determine the exact placement in a family, or necessarily distinguish ancestors from relatives or both of these from in-laws, or even from family friends and other connections. Names spread in social groups by fashion as well as by honoring specific people. That is how Matilda, for instance, became so common very quickly, after the poopularity and high esteem of William the Conqueror's wife. It didn't take generations for this to be adopted in virtually every Anglo-Norman family.

The better reason for supposing that Countess Ida was a granddaughter of Roger II lord of Tosny and Ida of Hainaut, not their daughter, is that they named all their children in the confirmation of a gift made by Roger's father Ralph IV, and there was no Ida amongst them: "Postmodum Rogerius de Toenio, ejusdem Radulphi filius, particeps esse volens patris eleemosynae…Dedit etiam hanc libertatem…Concessit hoc id [sic, recte "Ida"] uxor ejusdem Rogerii et filii eorum, Radulphus, Hugo, Rogerius, Balduini, Gaufridus, et filiae eorum, Elizabeth et Godehildis" [Afterwards Roger de Tosny, son of this Ralph, in order to share in his father's donation....also gave this waiver...Conceding to this, Roger's wife Ida and their sons Ralph, Hugh, Roger, Baldwin, Geoffrey, and their daughters Elizabeth and Godhild].

It is possible that Countess Ida was a third daughter, who had not yet been born at the time, but the absence of her name is more likely to be an indicator, supporting the chronology, that she belonged in the following generation as a daughter of Ralph V of Tosny and Margaret de Beaumont.

She would then have been fairly young when Henry II fathered William Longespee, but we know from his interference with Alice of France, who was sent as a child to his court, that this king could behave in a way that nowadays should land him in jail for pedophilia.

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