UB Douglkas Richardson Fw: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir T

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Leo van de Pas

UB Douglkas Richardson Fw: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir T

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 08 okt 2007 04:11:02

It is interesting to see Douglas Richardson moving on, but before he does is
he willing to answer a few questions?

Does he think that his crossposting has contributed to the standards on
Gen-med?

If he thinks it was a positive move, can he tell us what the positive
results were?

If he thinks it was a mistake, is he capable of admitting that?

And before he moves on, how about some primary sources about the usage of
Countess as a first name in medieval Britain?
And some Primary proof that Edward III and Alice Perrers did have
child(ren)? And then what was the proof about Ida being Ida de Tosny?

Before creating more questions, it would be good to lay a few of the old
ones to rest. Certainly that would benefit your standing.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british,alt.talk.royalty
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer,husband of Agnes
Poynings, Lady Bardolf


Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf) includes an account of
Sir William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. Sir William Bardolf's wife was
Agnes Poynings, the daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord
Poynings. Following Sir William's death in 1386, his widow, Agnes,
married (2nd) a certain Sir Thomas Mortimer, about whom Complete
Peerage says only that he died before 9 Jan. 1402/3. It is strange
that Sir Thomas Mortimer's history should be totally ignored by
Complete Peerage, as Sir Thomas was a member of the comital Mortimer
family of Wigmore, Herefordshire, which family was at the central
stage of the historical events in England in this time period.

Although sources vary somewhat, my research indicates that Sir Thomas
Mortimer was a younger son of Roger de Mortimer, K.G., 2nd Earl of
March, who died in 1360. Sir Thomas Mortimer first surfaces in the
records in 1382, when he was appointed Chief Justice of Ireland, in
tandem with the appointment of his young nephew, Roger Mortimer, Earl
of March and Ulster, as Lieutenant of Ireland. Both of these
appointments was cancelled in 1383 [see Complete Peerage, 8 (1932):
448 (sub March)]. Sir Thomas next occurs in England, where he
married shortly after 10 April 1386 Agnes Poynings, widow of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. The following year he fought at
the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed Thomas Molineux,
Constable of Chester Castle. Sir Thomas Mortimer was subsequently
impeached of high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a
fugitive. His chief crime was the same as that of Warwick and
Gloucester, namely the levying of war against the king at Harringay
Park (now Hornsey), Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any
declaration of the crime by Parliament. Rather, Sir Thomas was to
stand convicted by default if within three months he failed to appear
to stand trial. On 24 Sept. 1397 an order was sent to his nephew,
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of Ireland, to send Sir
Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir Thomas fled to one
of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402 Agnes, Lady Bardolf
released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish), Suffolk to Robert
Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER died
sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which date
his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company.

I assume Sir Thomas Mortimer was in Scotland at the time of his death,
as I found an undated letter written by King Henry IV granting
letters of safe conduct at request of Duke of Rothesay to John
Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were formerly dwelling
with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" for them to come to
England, or elsewhere, and return {Reference: The Monthly Magazine, or
British Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326].

We can be certain that Sir Thomas Mortimer in England is the same
person as the Thomas Mortimer appointed Chief Justice of Ireland in
1382, as I found a record dated 1395, in which Sir Thomas Mortimer was
styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord Bergavenny
[Reference: C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 601].. Sir William de Beauchamp's
mother was Katherine de Mortimer, the sister of Sir Thomas'
grandfather, Sir Edmund de Mortimer, Lord Mortimer. Thus Sir Thomas
Mortimer and Sir William de Beauchamp were first cousins once removed.

Curiously, Sir Thomas Mortimer is not named as a son of his parents by
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 284, footnote a (sub Mortimer). Possibly
it is for this reason that the historian, Chris Givern-Wilson, has
assumed that Sir Thomas Mortimer was illegitimate. If anyone has
further particulars about this point, I'd appreciate hearing from them
here on the newsgroup. My impression is that Sir Thomas Mortimer was
a legitimate son of his father.

For interest's sake, please find below my current acccount of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings, and
also of Agnes Poynings' 2nd husband, Sir Thomas Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings

I. WILLIAM BARDOLF, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay, Caister,
Cantley, Fincham, and Strumpshaw, Norfolk, Ruskington, Caythorpe,
Digby, Fillingham, and Westborough, Lincolnshire, Clopton, Suffolk,
Addington, Surrey, Plumpton, Sussex, etc., son and heir, born 21 Oct.
1349. He married after 10 Feb. 1365/6 AGNES POYNINGS (or PONYNGES),
daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord Poynings, by Joan,
daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt. They had two sons, Thomas, Knt.
[5th Lord Bardolf] and William, and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of
Robert Scales, Knt., 5th Lord Scales, and Henry Percy, Knt.) and
Cecily (wife of Brian Stapleton, Knt.). His wife, Agnes, was a
legatee in the 1369 will of her mother, Joan Poynings, and in the 1374
will of her brother, Thomas Poynings, 2nd Lord Poynings. He presented
to the churches of Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire and North Runcton,
Norfolk in 1373. In 1375 he presented to the chapel of St. Mary in
Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire. He was summoned to Parliament from
28 Dec. 1375 to 3 Sept. 1385, by writs directed Willelmo Bardolf' de
Wirmegeye. In 1377 he brought a suit against William Fitz Hugh of
London, goldsmith, "for refusing to surrender four scochons
[escutcheons] with hatchments of his arms" which were found in Fitz
Hugh's possession. SIR WILLIAM BARDOLF, 4th Lord Bardolf, died 29
Jan. 1385/6. He left a will requesting burial at the Friar Carmelites
at Lynn, Norfolk. His widow, Agnes, married (2nd) shortly after 10
April 1386 Thomas Mortimer, Knt., of Cavendish, Wratting, and
Stansfield, Suffolk, and, in right of his wife, of Wormegay, Cantley,
and Caister, Norfolk, Chief Justice of Ireland, 1382, Seneschal (or
Under Steward) of the Liberty of Bury St. Edmund, younger son of Roger
de Mortimer, Knt., K.G., 2nd Earl of March. They had no known issue.
He fought at the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed
Thomas Molineux, Constable of Chester Castle. He presented to the
churches of Cantley and Whinburgh, Norfolk in 1391. In 1392 he
presented to the church of Garveston, Norfolk. He was a legatee and
named a supervisor of the 1396 will of Walter Brugge, clerk. In 1397
he presented to the church of Wormegay, Norfolk. He was impeached of
high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a fugitive. His chief
crime was the same as that of Warwick and Gloucester, namely the
levying of war against the king at Harringay Park (now Hornsey),
Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any declaration of the
crime by Parliament. Sir Thomas was to stand convicted by default if
within three months he failed to appear to stand trial. On 24 Sept.
1397 an order was sent to Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of
Ireland, to send Sir Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir
Thomas fled to one of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402
Agnes, Lady Bardolf released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish),
Suffolk to Robert Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. She presented
to the church of North Runcton, Norfolk in 1402. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER
died sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which
date his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company. Agnes, Lady
Bardolf died 12 June 1403, and was buried in Trinity Priory, Aldgate,
London. She left a will dated 9 Jan. 1402/3, proved 13 June 1403
(P.C.C. 4 Marche).

References:

Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 66. Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 2 (1821): 477-
485 (Bardolf pedigree). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 82, 92-
93, 116, 162. Williams Chronicque de la traïson et mort de Richart
Deux roy Dengleterre (1846): 10, 135-136. Stapleton, De antiquis
legibus liber: Cronica maiorum et vicecomitum londoniarum (1846).
Nichols, Chronicle of the Grey Friars of London (Camden Soc. 53)
(1852): 6-9. Sussex Arch. Colls. 15 (1863): 1-56. Henslowe,
Wermigey; or The weir amid the water (1865): 111-112. Dublin Univ.
Mag. 89 (1877): 493-494 (biog. of Sir Thomas de Mortimer).
Waters ,Chester of Chicheley 1 (1878): 140 (pedigree chart). Burke,
Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 22-23 (sub
Bardolf). Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany 3 (1885) : 25. Genealogist
n.s. 17 (1901): 246-247. C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 301, 601 (Thomas
Mortimer, Knt. styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord
Bergavenny in 1395). C.P.R. 1401-1405 (1905): 214. Copinger, Manors
of Suffolk 1 (1905): 49. List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 2 (PRO Lists
and Indexes 22) (1906): 611, 625, 636. Stow, A Survey of London 1
(1908): 141. C.P. 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf); 5 (1926): 397 (sub
FitzAlan); 11 (1949): 503-504 (sub Scales); 14 (1998): 65 (states
parentage of Joan, wife of Michael de Poynings, is "unknown"), 572
(citing Sussex N&Q 4 (1932-33): 51-53). The Monthly Mag., or British
Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326 (letter of King Henry IV dated 27 May
[year not stated] granting letters of safe conduct at request of Duke
of Rothesay to John Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were
formerly dwelling with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" to come
to England, or elsewhere, and return). Thomas, Cal. of Plea &
Memoranda Rolls of the City of London 1364-1381 (1929): 255; 1381-1412
(1932): 233-239. VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 109-113. Train, Abs. of the
IPMs Rel. Nottinghamshire 1 (Thoroton Soc. Recs. 12) (1949): 99-100; 2
(1952): 112-113. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 24: 1-2 (sub
Bardolf). Cal. Inqs. Misc. 4 (1957): 188-189; 6 (1963): 81-82, 117,
129, 132-135, 207, 231. Bellamy, The Law of Treason in England in the
Later Middle Ages (1970): 182. Albion 7 (1975): 161-173. Roskell,
Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England 2 (1983): 57-58.
Warren, Addington: A Hist. (1984): 27. Given-Wilson, The Chronicle of
Adam Usk, 1377-1421 (1997): 27, 30, 40. Saul, Richard II (1997): 188,
380-388.


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