Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband of

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Douglas Richardson

Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband of

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 okt 2007 01:05:00

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf) includes an account of
Sir William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. Sir William Bardolf's wife was
Agnes Poynings, the daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord
Poynings. Following Sir William's death in 1386, his widow, Agnes,
married (2nd) a certain Sir Thomas Mortimer, about whom Complete
Peerage says only that he died before 9 Jan. 1402/3. It is strange
that Sir Thomas Mortimer's history should be totally ignored by
Complete Peerage, as Sir Thomas was a member of the comital Mortimer
family of Wigmore, Herefordshire, which family was at the central
stage of the historical events in England in this time period.

Although sources vary somewhat, my research indicates that Sir Thomas
Mortimer was a younger son of Roger de Mortimer, K.G., 2nd Earl of
March, who died in 1360. Sir Thomas Mortimer first surfaces in the
records in 1382, when he was appointed Chief Justice of Ireland, in
tandem with the appointment of his young nephew, Roger Mortimer, Earl
of March and Ulster, as Lieutenant of Ireland. Both of these
appointments was cancelled in 1383 [see Complete Peerage, 8 (1932):
448 (sub March)]. Sir Thomas next occurs in England, where he
married shortly after 10 April 1386 Agnes Poynings, widow of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. The following year he fought at
the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed Thomas Molineux,
Constable of Chester Castle. Sir Thomas Mortimer was subsequently
impeached of high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a
fugitive. His chief crime was the same as that of Warwick and
Gloucester, namely the levying of war against the king at Harringay
Park (now Hornsey), Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any
declaration of the crime by Parliament. Rather, Sir Thomas was to
stand convicted by default if within three months he failed to appear
to stand trial. On 24 Sept. 1397 an order was sent to his nephew,
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of Ireland, to send Sir
Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir Thomas fled to one
of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402 Agnes, Lady Bardolf
released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish), Suffolk to Robert
Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER died
sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which date
his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company.

I assume Sir Thomas Mortimer was in Scotland at the time of his death,
as I found an undated letter written by King Henry IV granting
letters of safe conduct at request of Duke of Rothesay to John
Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were formerly dwelling
with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" for them to come to
England, or elsewhere, and return {Reference: The Monthly Magazine, or
British Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326].

We can be certain that Sir Thomas Mortimer in England is the same
person as the Thomas Mortimer appointed Chief Justice of Ireland in
1382, as I found a record dated 1395, in which Sir Thomas Mortimer was
styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord Bergavenny
[Reference: C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 601].. Sir William de Beauchamp's
mother was Katherine de Mortimer, the sister of Sir Thomas'
grandfather, Sir Edmund de Mortimer, Lord Mortimer. Thus Sir Thomas
Mortimer and Sir William de Beauchamp were first cousins once removed.

Curiously, Sir Thomas Mortimer is not named as a son of his parents by
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 284, footnote a (sub Mortimer). Possibly
it is for this reason that the historian, Chris Givern-Wilson, has
assumed that Sir Thomas Mortimer was illegitimate. If anyone has
further particulars about this point, I'd appreciate hearing from them
here on the newsgroup. My impression is that Sir Thomas Mortimer was
a legitimate son of his father.

For interest's sake, please find below my current acccount of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings, and
also of Agnes Poynings' 2nd husband, Sir Thomas Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings

I. WILLIAM BARDOLF, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay, Caister,
Cantley, Fincham, and Strumpshaw, Norfolk, Ruskington, Caythorpe,
Digby, Fillingham, and Westborough, Lincolnshire, Clopton, Suffolk,
Addington, Surrey, Plumpton, Sussex, etc., son and heir, born 21 Oct.
1349. He married after 10 Feb. 1365/6 AGNES POYNINGS (or PONYNGES),
daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord Poynings, by Joan,
daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt. They had two sons, Thomas, Knt.
[5th Lord Bardolf] and William, and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of
Robert Scales, Knt., 5th Lord Scales, and Henry Percy, Knt.) and
Cecily (wife of Brian Stapleton, Knt.). His wife, Agnes, was a
legatee in the 1369 will of her mother, Joan Poynings, and in the 1374
will of her brother, Thomas Poynings, 2nd Lord Poynings. He presented
to the churches of Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire and North Runcton,
Norfolk in 1373. In 1375 he presented to the chapel of St. Mary in
Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire. He was summoned to Parliament from
28 Dec. 1375 to 3 Sept. 1385, by writs directed Willelmo Bardolf' de
Wirmegeye. In 1377 he brought a suit against William Fitz Hugh of
London, goldsmith, "for refusing to surrender four scochons
[escutcheons] with hatchments of his arms" which were found in Fitz
Hugh's possession. SIR WILLIAM BARDOLF, 4th Lord Bardolf, died 29
Jan. 1385/6. He left a will requesting burial at the Friar Carmelites
at Lynn, Norfolk. His widow, Agnes, married (2nd) shortly after 10
April 1386 Thomas Mortimer, Knt., of Cavendish, Wratting, and
Stansfield, Suffolk, and, in right of his wife, of Wormegay, Cantley,
and Caister, Norfolk, Chief Justice of Ireland, 1382, Seneschal (or
Under Steward) of the Liberty of Bury St. Edmund, younger son of Roger
de Mortimer, Knt., K.G., 2nd Earl of March. They had no known issue.
He fought at the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed
Thomas Molineux, Constable of Chester Castle. He presented to the
churches of Cantley and Whinburgh, Norfolk in 1391. In 1392 he
presented to the church of Garveston, Norfolk. He was a legatee and
named a supervisor of the 1396 will of Walter Brugge, clerk. In 1397
he presented to the church of Wormegay, Norfolk. He was impeached of
high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a fugitive. His chief
crime was the same as that of Warwick and Gloucester, namely the
levying of war against the king at Harringay Park (now Hornsey),
Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any declaration of the
crime by Parliament. Sir Thomas was to stand convicted by default if
within three months he failed to appear to stand trial. On 24 Sept.
1397 an order was sent to Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of
Ireland, to send Sir Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir
Thomas fled to one of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402
Agnes, Lady Bardolf released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish),
Suffolk to Robert Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. She presented
to the church of North Runcton, Norfolk in 1402. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER
died sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which
date his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company. Agnes, Lady
Bardolf died 12 June 1403, and was buried in Trinity Priory, Aldgate,
London. She left a will dated 9 Jan. 1402/3, proved 13 June 1403
(P.C.C. 4 Marche).

References:

Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 66. Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 2 (1821): 477-
485 (Bardolf pedigree). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 82, 92-
93, 116, 162. Williams Chronicque de la traïson et mort de Richart
Deux roy Dengleterre (1846): 10, 135-136. Stapleton, De antiquis
legibus liber: Cronica maiorum et vicecomitum londoniarum (1846).
Nichols, Chronicle of the Grey Friars of London (Camden Soc. 53)
(1852): 6-9. Sussex Arch. Colls. 15 (1863): 1-56. Henslowe,
Wermigey; or The weir amid the water (1865): 111-112. Dublin Univ.
Mag. 89 (1877): 493-494 (biog. of Sir Thomas de Mortimer).
Waters ,Chester of Chicheley 1 (1878): 140 (pedigree chart). Burke,
Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 22-23 (sub
Bardolf). Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany 3 (1885) : 25. Genealogist
n.s. 17 (1901): 246-247. C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 301, 601 (Thomas
Mortimer, Knt. styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord
Bergavenny in 1395). C.P.R. 1401-1405 (1905): 214. Copinger, Manors
of Suffolk 1 (1905): 49. List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 2 (PRO Lists
and Indexes 22) (1906): 611, 625, 636. Stow, A Survey of London 1
(1908): 141. C.P. 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf); 5 (1926): 397 (sub
FitzAlan); 11 (1949): 503-504 (sub Scales); 14 (1998): 65 (states
parentage of Joan, wife of Michael de Poynings, is "unknown"), 572
(citing Sussex N&Q 4 (1932-33): 51-53). The Monthly Mag., or British
Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326 (letter of King Henry IV dated 27 May
[year not stated] granting letters of safe conduct at request of Duke
of Rothesay to John Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were
formerly dwelling with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" to come
to England, or elsewhere, and return). Thomas, Cal. of Plea &
Memoranda Rolls of the City of London 1364-1381 (1929): 255; 1381-1412
(1932): 233-239. VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 109-113. Train, Abs. of the
IPMs Rel. Nottinghamshire 1 (Thoroton Soc. Recs. 12) (1949): 99-100; 2
(1952): 112-113. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 24: 1-2 (sub
Bardolf). Cal. Inqs. Misc. 4 (1957): 188-189; 6 (1963): 81-82, 117,
129, 132-135, 207, 231. Bellamy, The Law of Treason in England in the
Later Middle Ages (1970): 182. Albion 7 (1975): 161-173. Roskell,
Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England 2 (1983): 57-58.
Warren, Addington: A Hist. (1984): 27. Given-Wilson, The Chronicle of
Adam Usk, 1377-1421 (1997): 27, 30, 40. Saul, Richard II (1997): 188,
380-388.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 okt 2007 20:11:43

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post yesterday regarding Sir Thomas Mortimer, I inadvertedly
stated that the mother of Sir Thomas' wife, Agnes Poynings, Lady
Bardolf, was "Joan, daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt." In this
statement, I was following Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 39 (sub
Moleyns), which wrongly identified Agnes' mother, Joan, as the
daughter of Sir Richard Rokesley. Agnes Poynings' mother was
definitely named Joan. However, Joan's maiden name and parentage are
still unknown [see, for example, Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 65].

Sir Richard Rokesley (or Rokesle) was actually the father of Agnes
(Poynings) (Bardolf) Mortimer's paternal grandmother, Agnes de
Rokesley (or Rokesle), wife of Thomas de Poynings, Knt. [see, for
example, Ireland, Hist. of the County of Kent 4 (1830): 529-530;
Procs. Soc. Antiq. 3 (1856): 160-161]. So, there is definitely a
Rokesley-Poynings connection, but it is one generation back of where
Complete Peerage said it was.

Sir Richard de Rokesley (or Rokesle) has been identified in print as
the son of Gregory de Rokesley (died 1291), Mayor of London, King's
Chamberlain [see, for example, D.N.B. 17 (1909): 155-156 (biog. of
Gregory de Rokesley)]. However, Gregory de Rokesley's heir was named
in an inquisition as Roger de Risslep, son of his sister, Agnes
[Reference: Roberts, Cal. Gen. i. 441]. I haven't studied the
Rokesley family tree in any depth, but I note in the online National
Archives catalogue there are two records in the right time period
which refer to Richard de Rokesley:

C 143/36/4 John de Rokesle to grant the manors of Westwood and
Ruxley, Kent to Richard de Rokesle. Date: 29 Edward I [1300-1301].

C 134/66/23 Richard son of John de Rokesle alias de Rokeslee (Ruxley):
Kent Date: 14 Edward II [1320-1321].

The first document clearly involves Agnes Poynings' great-grandfather,
Sir Richard de Rokesley, who had possession of the manors of Westwood
and Ruxley, Kent at the time of his death in 1322. I assume the
second document involves the same Richard de Rokesle, only his
father's name, John, is given in that record.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. I wish to thank Martin Hollick who pointed out my Rokesley error
in a private e-mail.

Gjest

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 okt 2007 06:07:53

Douglas
Then why did you publish, Joan, daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt

Page 40 Magna Carta Ancestry

Brendan Wilson


On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:11:43 -0700, Douglas Richardson
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post yesterday regarding Sir Thomas Mortimer, I inadvertedly
stated that the mother of Sir Thomas' wife, Agnes Poynings, Lady
Bardolf, was "Joan, daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt." In this
statement, I was following Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 39 (sub
Moleyns), which wrongly identified Agnes' mother, Joan, as the
daughter of Sir Richard Rokesley. Agnes Poynings' mother was
definitely named Joan. However, Joan's maiden name and parentage are
still unknown [see, for example, Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 65].

Sir Richard Rokesley (or Rokesle) was actually the father of Agnes
(Poynings) (Bardolf) Mortimer's paternal grandmother, Agnes de
Rokesley (or Rokesle), wife of Thomas de Poynings, Knt. [see, for
example, Ireland, Hist. of the County of Kent 4 (1830): 529-530;
Procs. Soc. Antiq. 3 (1856): 160-161]. So, there is definitely a
Rokesley-Poynings connection, but it is one generation back of where
Complete Peerage said it was.

Sir Richard de Rokesley (or Rokesle) has been identified in print as
the son of Gregory de Rokesley (died 1291), Mayor of London, King's
Chamberlain [see, for example, D.N.B. 17 (1909): 155-156 (biog. of
Gregory de Rokesley)]. However, Gregory de Rokesley's heir was named
in an inquisition as Roger de Risslep, son of his sister, Agnes
[Reference: Roberts, Cal. Gen. i. 441]. I haven't studied the
Rokesley family tree in any depth, but I note in the online National
Archives catalogue there are two records in the right time period
which refer to Richard de Rokesley:

C 143/36/4 John de Rokesle to grant the manors of Westwood and
Ruxley, Kent to Richard de Rokesle. Date: 29 Edward I [1300-1301].

C 134/66/23 Richard son of John de Rokesle alias de Rokeslee (Ruxley):
Kent Date: 14 Edward II [1320-1321].

The first document clearly involves Agnes Poynings' great-grandfather,
Sir Richard de Rokesley, who had possession of the manors of Westwood
and Ruxley, Kent at the time of his death in 1322. I assume the
second document involves the same Richard de Rokesle, only his
father's name, John, is given in that record.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. I wish to thank Martin Hollick who pointed out my Rokesley error
in a private e-mail.

To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 09 okt 2007 09:41:59

Dear Brendan ~

The error about the parentage of Joan, wife of Sir Michael de
Poynings, 1st Lord Poynings, is found in Complete Peerage in TWO
different accounts, namely Bardolf and Moleyns. The problem with
Joan's parentage was sidestepped in Complete Peerage's Poynings
account.

Do you have any evidence of Joan's correct parentage? If so, by all
means, post your evidence with your sources.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 okt 2007 05:17:12

Douglas

All I have is your book,
I had used it and sourced it as page 40 and that " Joan,was daughter
of Richard Rokesley, Knt" as you wrote in your Book.
Now 2 years later you say ;
I inadvertedly
stated that the mother of Sir Thomas' wife, Agnes Poynings, Lady
Bardolf, was "Joan, daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt." In this
statement, I was following Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 39 (sub
Moleyns), which wrongly identified Agnes' mother, Joan, as the
daughter of Sir Richard Rokesley. Agnes Poynings' mother was
definitely named Joan. However, Joan's maiden name and parentage are
still unknown [see, for example, Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 65].

So Joan isn't daughter of Richard Rokesley, I'll change my data.

I asked why did you say she was daughter of Richard Rokesley in your
Book, you never answered my question.

If you made a mistake say so, and add it to the list of corrections.

read your book
Page 40 Magna Carta Ancestry

Brendan Wilson

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:41:59 -0700, Douglas Richardson
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Brendan ~

The error about the parentage of Joan, wife of Sir Michael de
Poynings, 1st Lord Poynings, is found in Complete Peerage in TWO
different accounts, namely Bardolf and Moleyns. The problem with
Joan's parentage was sidestepped in Complete Peerage's Poynings
account.

Do you have any evidence of Joan's correct parentage? If so, by all
means, post your evidence with your sources.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah





To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 okt 2007 18:35:09

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Oct 9, 10:17 pm, wilso...@paradise.net[dot]nz wrote:
< I asked why did you say she was daughter of Richard Rokesley in your
< Book, you never answered my question.

Complete Peerage twice identified the father of Lady Joan de Poynings
as Sir Richard de Rokesley: once in the Bardolf account, and once in
the Moleyns account. I followed Complete Peerage, which is
considered to be authoritative.

< If you made a mistake say so, and add it to the list of corrections.

I don't believe it is necessary to repeat myself. I already said
Complete Peerage got it wrong. But if you insist, I'll say it again.
Complete Peerage got it wrong, twice.

< read your book
< Page 40 Magna Carta Ancestry

Actually I've read my book. On page 41 the correction you ask about is
noted in the footnotes. Joan de Poynings' parentage is there said to
be "unknown." Did you miss the correction? I bet you did.

Even so, as you are able, you should verify everything you find in
secondary works against primary sources. That includes my books, good
sir.

< Brendan Wilson

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Higgins

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 okt 2007 01:37:44

It's misleading, and essentially untruthful, to characterize the note
regarding the parentage of Joan Rokesley on p. 41 of MCA as "a correction".
In actuality, it's simply an acknowledgement (not uncommon in MCA and RPA,
but rarely noted) that the sources cited do not always agree with the
conclusion reached in the body of the text. But the bottom line is that the
TEXT indicates that the author concluded that Joan was the daughter of Sir
Richard Rokesley, based on some source, and chose to downplay the contrary
source. If the author had believed that Joan's parentage was in fact
unknown, this would have been stated in the text, possibly with a note as to
the source that indicated her (incorrect) parentage. There are certainly
other instances of this in both books.

Given the frequent conflicts in sources in medieval genealogy, some decision
needed to be made in order to publish, and this was perhaps as good as any
(and at least the conflict was noted). But it appears that DR has now
changed his mind - fair enough. If so, why not simply admit it, rather than
scurrying to cover your tracks and back off from an earlier conclusion now
apparently felt to be erroneous? Such actions don't do much for your
credibility.....

It's very simple: "I thought A when I wrote the book - I now think B"....in
other words, a correction to an error in the book.

CP may have gotten it wrong in the two instances you cite, but at least it
corrected itself in vol. 14. The fact that you chose to note but ignore
CP's correction is YOUR mistake, not CP's.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer,husband of
Agnes Poynings, Lady Bardolf


My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Oct 9, 10:17 pm, wilso...@paradise.net[dot]nz wrote:
I asked why did you say she was daughter of Richard Rokesley in your
Book, you never answered my question.

Complete Peerage twice identified the father of Lady Joan de Poynings
as Sir Richard de Rokesley: once in the Bardolf account, and once in
the Moleyns account. I followed Complete Peerage, which is
considered to be authoritative.

If you made a mistake say so, and add it to the list of corrections.

I don't believe it is necessary to repeat myself. I already said
Complete Peerage got it wrong. But if you insist, I'll say it again.
Complete Peerage got it wrong, twice.

read your book
Page 40 Magna Carta Ancestry

Actually I've read my book. On page 41 the correction you ask about is
noted in the footnotes. Joan de Poynings' parentage is there said to
be "unknown." Did you miss the correction? I bet you did.

Even so, as you are able, you should verify everything you find in
secondary works against primary sources. That includes my books, good
sir.

Brendan Wilson

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Douglas Richardson

Will Johnson's "prestidious" database

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 13 okt 2007 09:09:47

Will ~

Where do I post the corrections to your PA corrections? I have
several of them in hand to share with you. And I know you want them.

Better yet, where do we post corrections to your own database? Do you
want them posted here on the newsgroup, or set to you privately? Will
you post the corrections on a website for us to visit? That's only
fair I think.

I've already submitted the "de Botetourt" correction of your database
to you. As of tonight, here's what you're currently showing:

Botetourt, Ada of b: 1284/1325
Botetourt, Guy , Knt of Upton, Norfolk b: 1200/1248
Botetourt, Joan de b: ABT 1362 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: AFT 1428
Botetourt, John de b: 1335/1369 in Rotherfield, Oxfordshire d: in
Rotherfield, Oxfordshire
Botetourt, John de , Knt b: ABT 1330 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 1377
Botetourt, John, 1st Lord b: ABT 1265 in of Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 25
Nov 1324
Botetourt, John, Lord of Webley Castle b: 1318 d: 1385
Botetourt, Joyce de b: 1320/1355
Botetourt, Joyce de b: 1335/1368 d: 12 Aug 1420
Botetourt, Joyce, Baroness , suo jure b: 1360/1386 d: 1 Jan 1406/1407
Botetourt, Katherine b: 1335/1345 d: ABT 1387
Botetourt, Otho de b: ABT 1298 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 1345
Botetourt, Robert of b: 1233/1300
Botetourt, Roger of b: 1233/1300
Botetourt, Thomas de b: 1284/1301 d: 1322 in D.v.p.

You have five entries out of fifteen correctly stated, the rest are
wrong. That's not very impressive, Will. None of these people were
"de Botetourt" or "of Botetourt." The name was Botetourt, with no
"de" or "of."

Also, I just visited the the front page of your database. You seem to
have misspelled two words at the top of your main index page:
"prestidious" and "descendents"

I think you mean "prestigious descendants" not "prestidious
descendents." Is that right? I can't even find prestidious in the
dictionary. Is prestidious even a word?

For those that want to visit your database, here is the weblink:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... ls&recno=0

Your database is certainly most "prestidious," whatever that means.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

AdT

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av AdT » 13 okt 2007 17:15:39

On Oct 8, 2:05 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf) includes an account of
Sir William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. Sir William Bardolf's wife was
Agnes Poynings, the daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord
Poynings. Following Sir William's death in 1386, his widow, Agnes,
married (2nd) a certain Sir Thomas Mortimer, about whom Complete
Peerage says only that he died before 9 Jan. 1402/3. It is strange
that Sir Thomas Mortimer's history should be totally ignored by
Complete Peerage, as Sir Thomas was a member of the comital Mortimer
family of Wigmore, Herefordshire, which family was at the central
stage of the historical events in England in this time period.

Although sources vary somewhat, my research indicates that Sir Thomas
Mortimer was a younger son of Roger de Mortimer, K.G., 2nd Earl of
March, who died in 1360. Sir Thomas Mortimer first surfaces in the
records in 1382, when he was appointed Chief Justice of Ireland, in
tandem with the appointment of his young nephew, Roger Mortimer, Earl
of March and Ulster, as Lieutenant of Ireland. Both of these
appointments was cancelled in 1383 [see Complete Peerage, 8 (1932):
448 (sub March)]. Sir Thomas next occurs in England, where he
married shortly after 10 April 1386 Agnes Poynings, widow of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf. The following year he fought at
the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed Thomas Molineux,
Constable of Chester Castle. Sir Thomas Mortimer was subsequently
impeached of high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a
fugitive. His chief crime was the same as that of Warwick and
Gloucester, namely the levying of war against the king at Harringay
Park (now Hornsey), Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any
declaration of the crime by Parliament. Rather, Sir Thomas was to
stand convicted by default if within three months he failed to appear
to stand trial. On 24 Sept. 1397 an order was sent to his nephew,
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of Ireland, to send Sir
Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir Thomas fled to one
of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402 Agnes, Lady Bardolf
released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish), Suffolk to Robert
Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER died
sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which date
his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company.

I assume Sir Thomas Mortimer was in Scotland at the time of his death,
as I found an undated letter written by King Henry IV granting
letters of safe conduct at request of Duke of Rothesay to John
Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were formerly dwelling
with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" for them to come to
England, or elsewhere, and return {Reference: The Monthly Magazine, or
British Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326].

We can be certain that Sir Thomas Mortimer in England is the same
person as the Thomas Mortimer appointed Chief Justice of Ireland in
1382, as I found a record dated 1395, in which Sir Thomas Mortimer was
styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord Bergavenny
[Reference: C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 601].. Sir William de Beauchamp's
mother was Katherine de Mortimer, the sister of Sir Thomas'
grandfather, Sir Edmund de Mortimer, Lord Mortimer. Thus Sir Thomas
Mortimer and Sir William de Beauchamp were first cousins once removed.

Curiously, Sir Thomas Mortimer is not named as a son of his parents by
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 284, footnote a (sub Mortimer). Possibly
it is for this reason that the historian, Chris Givern-Wilson, has
assumed that Sir Thomas Mortimer was illegitimate. If anyone has
further particulars about this point, I'd appreciate hearing from them
here on the newsgroup. My impression is that Sir Thomas Mortimer was
a legitimate son of his father.

For interest's sake, please find below my current acccount of Sir
William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings, and
also of Agnes Poynings' 2nd husband, Sir Thomas Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, and his wife, Agnes Poynings

I. WILLIAM BARDOLF, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay, Caister,
Cantley, Fincham, and Strumpshaw, Norfolk, Ruskington, Caythorpe,
Digby, Fillingham, and Westborough, Lincolnshire, Clopton, Suffolk,
Addington, Surrey, Plumpton, Sussex, etc., son and heir, born 21 Oct.
1349. He married after 10 Feb. 1365/6 AGNES POYNINGS (or PONYNGES),
daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord Poynings, by Joan,
daughter of Richard Rokesley, Knt. They had two sons, Thomas, Knt.
[5th Lord Bardolf] and William, and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of
Robert Scales, Knt., 5th Lord Scales, and Henry Percy, Knt.) and
Cecily (wife of Brian Stapleton, Knt.). His wife, Agnes, was a
legatee in the 1369 will of her mother, Joan Poynings, and in the 1374
will of her brother, Thomas Poynings, 2nd Lord Poynings. He presented
to the churches of Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire and North Runcton,
Norfolk in 1373. In 1375 he presented to the chapel of St. Mary in
Watton-atte-Stone, Hertfordshire. He was summoned to Parliament from
28 Dec. 1375 to 3 Sept. 1385, by writs directed Willelmo Bardolf' de
Wirmegeye. In 1377 he brought a suit against William Fitz Hugh of
London, goldsmith, "for refusing to surrender four scochons
[escutcheons] with hatchments of his arms" which were found in Fitz
Hugh's possession. SIR WILLIAM BARDOLF, 4th Lord Bardolf, died 29
Jan. 1385/6. He left a will requesting burial at the Friar Carmelites
at Lynn, Norfolk. His widow, Agnes, married (2nd) shortly after 10
April 1386 Thomas Mortimer, Knt., of Cavendish, Wratting, and
Stansfield, Suffolk, and, in right of his wife, of Wormegay, Cantley,
and Caister, Norfolk, Chief Justice of Ireland, 1382, Seneschal (or
Under Steward) of the Liberty of Bury St. Edmund, younger son of Roger
de Mortimer, Knt., K.G., 2nd Earl of March. They had no known issue.
He fought at the Battle of Radcot Bridge in 1387, where he killed
Thomas Molineux, Constable of Chester Castle. He presented to the
churches of Cantley and Whinburgh, Norfolk in 1391. In 1392 he
presented to the church of Garveston, Norfolk. He was a legatee and
named a supervisor of the 1396 will of Walter Brugge, clerk. In 1397
he presented to the church of Wormegay, Norfolk. He was impeached of
high treason by Parliament in 1397, and became a fugitive. His chief
crime was the same as that of Warwick and Gloucester, namely the
levying of war against the king at Harringay Park (now Hornsey),
Middlesex in 1388. The king did not ask for any declaration of the
crime by Parliament. Sir Thomas was to stand convicted by default if
within three months he failed to appear to stand trial. On 24 Sept.
1397 an order was sent to Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, Lieutenant of
Ireland, to send Sir Thomas over to appear before the Parliament. Sir
Thomas fled to one of the Irish septs and was outlawed. In 1401-1402
Agnes, Lady Bardolf released the manor of Grays (in Cavendish),
Suffolk to Robert Poynings, Lord Poynings, and others. She presented
to the church of North Runcton, Norfolk in 1402. SIR THOMAS MORTIMER
died sometime before 14 March 1402/3 (possibly in Scotland), on which
date his widow, Agnes, had license to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and
Cologne with twelve men and twelve horses in her company. Agnes, Lady
Bardolf died 12 June 1403, and was buried in Trinity Priory, Aldgate,
London. She left a will dated 9 Jan. 1402/3, proved 13 June 1403
(P.C.C. 4 Marche).

References:

Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 66. Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 2 (1821): 477-
485 (Bardolf pedigree). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 82, 92-
93, 116, 162. Williams Chronicque de la traïson et mort de Richart
Deux roy Dengleterre (1846): 10, 135-136. Stapleton, De antiquis
legibus liber: Cronica maiorum et vicecomitum londoniarum (1846).
Nichols, Chronicle of the Grey Friars of London (Camden Soc. 53)
(1852): 6-9. Sussex Arch. Colls. 15 (1863): 1-56. Henslowe,
Wermigey; or The weir amid the water (1865): 111-112. Dublin Univ.
Mag. 89 (1877): 493-494 (biog. of Sir Thomas de Mortimer).
Waters ,Chester of Chicheley 1 (1878): 140 (pedigree chart). Burke,
Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 22-23 (sub
Bardolf). Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany 3 (1885) : 25. Genealogist
n.s. 17 (1901): 246-247. C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 301, 601 (Thomas
Mortimer, Knt. styled "kinsman" of William de Beauchamp, 1st Lord
Bergavenny in 1395). C.P.R. 1401-1405 (1905): 214. Copinger, Manors
of Suffolk 1 (1905): 49. List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 2 (PRO Lists
and Indexes 22) (1906): 611, 625, 636. Stow, A Survey of London 1
(1908): 141. C.P. 1 (1910): 419 (sub Bardolf); 5 (1926): 397 (sub
FitzAlan); 11 (1949): 503-504 (sub Scales); 14 (1998): 65 (states
parentage of Joan, wife of Michael de Poynings, is "unknown"), 572
(citing Sussex N&Q 4 (1932-33): 51-53). The Monthly Mag., or British
Register 36(2) (1913): 325-326 (letter of King Henry IV dated 27 May
[year not stated] granting letters of safe conduct at request of Duke
of Rothesay to John Spershot, Esq., and John Feller, valet, "who were
formerly dwelling with Sir Thomas Mortemer, knight, deceased" to come
to England, or elsewhere, and return). Thomas, Cal. of Plea &
Memoranda Rolls of the City of London 1364-1381 (1929): 255; 1381-1412
(1932): 233-239. VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 109-113. Train, Abs. of the
IPMs Rel. Nottinghamshire 1 (Thoroton Soc. Recs. 12) (1949): 99-100; 2
(1952): 112-113. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 24: 1-2 (sub
Bardolf). Cal. Inqs. Misc. 4 (1957): 188-189; 6 (1963): 81-82, 117,
129, 132-135, 207, 231. Bellamy, The Law of Treason in England in the
Later Middle Ages (1970): 182. Albion 7 (1975): 161-173.
...

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Dear Usergroup,
I am totally ignorant in this discussion, but the name (Agnes)
Poynings struck me because this suggests a Flemish ancestry (Ghand
region). I have a Poynings in my files - much earlier, around 1100,
with William de Pierrepont of Poynings, son of Reinoud/Reginald and
grandson of Ingram. De Pierrepont seems to me a french transcription
of the Flemish name van Steenbrugghe ["stone bridge"] a well known
family from Ghand/Gent at the time. Some of the children and
grandchildren of William married with (in origin) Flemish families (de
Caen, van Clavering, van Gent Villain).
Am I correct or totally mistaken about in this associative thinking
Poinings/Pierrepont? I am interested because some of my ancestors
(related to the Tollins, vicount of Aalst/Alost and Ghand), crossed
the channel at that time to settle there, and went back only to marry
and return, but I did not look into this more closely and lost track.

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