Has anyone gone through the Agincourt RoH listing the regions represented?
The reason I ask is that Gfiiron de Hesketh served under Sir William
Boteler. I understand that Sir William was from Warrington and I am
presuming that the men fighting for him would have come from the same
region. Is this naive?
David Hesketh
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18:53
Battle of Agincourt Roll of Honour - Regional Makeup
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Battle of Agincourt Roll of Honour - Regional Makeup
In article <mailman.3289.1191675111.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"David Hesketh" <davehesketh@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I am not aware that this has or can be done. The most authoritative
list of participants is printed by Nicolas (collating three manuscripts
of different type and provenance) and is arranged by retinue (and has no
archers--only men at arms). It does not necessarily follow that those
listed with a particular lord were from one place. Many of the lords
had multiple scattered holdings and may have drawn their military
retinue from a variety of manors--and also from relationships not based
on landholding.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
"David Hesketh" <davehesketh@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Has anyone gone through the Agincourt RoH listing the regions represented?
The reason I ask is that Gfiiron de Hesketh served under Sir William
Boteler. I understand that Sir William was from Warrington and I am
presuming that the men fighting for him would have come from the same
region. Is this naive?
David Hesketh
I am not aware that this has or can be done. The most authoritative
list of participants is printed by Nicolas (collating three manuscripts
of different type and provenance) and is arranged by retinue (and has no
archers--only men at arms). It does not necessarily follow that those
listed with a particular lord were from one place. Many of the lords
had multiple scattered holdings and may have drawn their military
retinue from a variety of manors--and also from relationships not based
on landholding.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Derek Howard
Re: Battle of Agincourt Roll of Honour - Regional Makeup
On Oct 6, 3:25 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
The most comprehensive collection of names yet is presented in Anne
Curry (Prof of Medieval History at Southampton): "Agincourt, A New
History", Tempus Printing Ltd, Stroud UK, 2005, ISBN 0 7524 2828 4.
Appendix D (pp 280-1) lists men known from Exchequer records to have
taken out indentures to serve on the 1415 campaign - all have some
description: esquire/ knight/ lord/ earl/ gunner/ archer/ almoner/
minstrel, etc.; and Appendix E (pp 282-300) names men-at-arms and
archers known to have served in the English army taken from muster
rolls and retinue lists in the National Archives and "excludes the
'Agincourt roll' in Nicolas, 333-70".
There are over 320 indentured men from dukes to archers and clerics,
with the further names of 1,422 men-at-arms and 5,116 archers. In
addition we know names of a number of household officials, eg.
heralds, who were present. It would appear that Nicolas, 373-9,
includes a few names (25) based on BL Sloane 4600, for which official
records do not survive.
Unfortunately Curry has listed all the participants alphabetically
without individual document references. It is therefore not possible
yet to build up the regional patterns from her printed works. However,
it is my understanding that the data base from which the printed list
is generated should be able to confirm sources and hence in many cases
the retinue or muster list which would be worth examining. However, it
will not always be possible to establish the region of origin more
precisely. As Nat says many of the lords had multiple scattered
holdings or recruited outside them.
If you have an individual query it may just be worth contacting Prof
Curry (see <http://www.history.soton.ac.uk/curry.htm> for contact).
Derek Howard
wrote:
In article <mailman.3289.1191675111.7287.gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>,
"David Hesketh" <davehesk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Has anyone gone through the Agincourt RoH listing the regions represented?
The reason I ask is that Gfiiron de Hesketh served under Sir William
Boteler. I understand that Sir William was from Warrington and I am
presuming that the men fighting for him would have come from the same
region. Is this naive?
David Hesketh
I am not aware that this has or can be done. The most authoritative
list of participants is printed by Nicolas (collating three manuscripts
of different type and provenance) and is arranged by retinue (and has no
archers--only men at arms). It does not necessarily follow that those
listed with a particular lord were from one place. Many of the lords
had multiple scattered holdings and may have drawn their military
retinue from a variety of manors--and also from relationships not based
on landholding.
Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net
The most comprehensive collection of names yet is presented in Anne
Curry (Prof of Medieval History at Southampton): "Agincourt, A New
History", Tempus Printing Ltd, Stroud UK, 2005, ISBN 0 7524 2828 4.
Appendix D (pp 280-1) lists men known from Exchequer records to have
taken out indentures to serve on the 1415 campaign - all have some
description: esquire/ knight/ lord/ earl/ gunner/ archer/ almoner/
minstrel, etc.; and Appendix E (pp 282-300) names men-at-arms and
archers known to have served in the English army taken from muster
rolls and retinue lists in the National Archives and "excludes the
'Agincourt roll' in Nicolas, 333-70".
There are over 320 indentured men from dukes to archers and clerics,
with the further names of 1,422 men-at-arms and 5,116 archers. In
addition we know names of a number of household officials, eg.
heralds, who were present. It would appear that Nicolas, 373-9,
includes a few names (25) based on BL Sloane 4600, for which official
records do not survive.
Unfortunately Curry has listed all the participants alphabetically
without individual document references. It is therefore not possible
yet to build up the regional patterns from her printed works. However,
it is my understanding that the data base from which the printed list
is generated should be able to confirm sources and hence in many cases
the retinue or muster list which would be worth examining. However, it
will not always be possible to establish the region of origin more
precisely. As Nat says many of the lords had multiple scattered
holdings or recruited outside them.
If you have an individual query it may just be worth contacting Prof
Curry (see <http://www.history.soton.ac.uk/curry.htm> for contact).
Derek Howard
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Battle of Agincourt Roll of Honour - Regional Makeup
In article <1191745310.926809.45250@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Derek Howard <dhoward@skynet.be> wrote:
Thanks for this! I actually have Curry's book on order but didn't
realize it had a new study of participants. From what you say, the
people named in the primary sources will be a subset of those named in
the later lists, which even Nicolas was aware were not completely
trustworthy. For what it's worth, the lists he used were BL Harley 782,
Bodleian Ashmole 825, and one from the College of Arms (MS1). I retyped
just the leaders and knights from his list at pp. 333-63, on a webpage
here:
http://www.nltaylor.net/things/agincourt_list.htm
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Derek Howard <dhoward@skynet.be> wrote:
The most comprehensive collection of names yet is presented in Anne
Curry (Prof of Medieval History at Southampton): "Agincourt, A New
History", Tempus Printing Ltd, Stroud UK, 2005, ISBN 0 7524 2828 4.
Appendix D (pp 280-1) lists men known from Exchequer records to have
taken out indentures to serve on the 1415 campaign - all have some
description: esquire/ knight/ lord/ earl/ gunner/ archer/ almoner/
minstrel, etc.; and Appendix E (pp 282-300) names men-at-arms and
archers known to have served in the English army taken from muster
rolls and retinue lists in the National Archives and "excludes the
'Agincourt roll' in Nicolas, 333-70".
There are over 320 indentured men from dukes to archers and clerics,
with the further names of 1,422 men-at-arms and 5,116 archers. In
addition we know names of a number of household officials, eg.
heralds, who were present. It would appear that Nicolas, 373-9,
includes a few names (25) based on BL Sloane 4600, for which official
records do not survive.
Unfortunately Curry has listed all the participants alphabetically
without individual document references. It is therefore not possible
yet to build up the regional patterns from her printed works. However,
it is my understanding that the data base from which the printed list
is generated should be able to confirm sources and hence in many cases
the retinue or muster list which would be worth examining. However, it
will not always be possible to establish the region of origin more
precisely. As Nat says many of the lords had multiple scattered
holdings or recruited outside them.
If you have an individual query it may just be worth contacting Prof
Curry (see <http://www.history.soton.ac.uk/curry.htm> for contact).
Thanks for this! I actually have Curry's book on order but didn't
realize it had a new study of participants. From what you say, the
people named in the primary sources will be a subset of those named in
the later lists, which even Nicolas was aware were not completely
trustworthy. For what it's worth, the lists he used were BL Harley 782,
Bodleian Ashmole 825, and one from the College of Arms (MS1). I retyped
just the leaders and knights from his list at pp. 333-63, on a webpage
here:
http://www.nltaylor.net/things/agincourt_list.htm
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net