Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, smar

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John Brandon

Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, smar

Legg inn av John Brandon » 03 okt 2007 22:17:39

http://books.google.com/books?id=r5oQAA ... 2+shefford

This was the lady whose will mentioned her "nephew Joseph Breed," and
thus revealed that the children of Allen Breed of Lynn were
grandchildren of William Sargent of Malden, the next town over.

I'm also descended from the John Prince of Hull family, relatives of
the letter's writer, Thomas Prince. Notice the statement that the
great-grandfather of the writer was Rev. John Prince of East Shefford,
Berks. This is also given in numerous other places, including _The
Heraldic Journal_:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NnIFAA ... 2+heraldic

Notice the statement there that the Rev. John Prince married
"Elizabeth, daughter of Dr. Tolderbury."

It has always been rather suspicious to me that the Thomas PRENCE
family (apparently no relation to the Princes of Hull) claimed to be
descendants of "Thomas and Elizabeth Tolderby Prince" and
grandchildren of a Dr. John Tolderby.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4iExAA ... q=tolderby

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xn47AA ... rby&pgis=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6FBAA ... rby&pgis=1

"Tolderbury" and "Tolderby" are awfully similar. Does anybody else
find this suspiciously coincidental?

John Brandon

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 okt 2007 01:13:46

Amongst a lot of crap, _The Prince Family of Hull and Boston, Mass._
(on the BYU website) does have a few tidbits that can be verified as
being true.

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/docum ... 6628&REC=5

See p. 173, where some 1630 estate documents of Walter Toldervey of
Inkpen, Berks., mention "Mr. John Prince, clericus" of Shefford Parva,
as well as the widow Anne Toldervey and Edward Garrard, gent.

Page 174 shows three daughters of Walter and Anne Toldervey, Elizabeth
(b. 1567 [this certainly can't be correct] and married John Prince);
Ursula (b. 1600 and married John Milton); and Katherine (b. 1603 and
married Edward Gerrard).

The marriages of Ursula and Katherine can be verified in the extracted
IGI (batch M035181):

East Shefford, Berks.
--Edward Garrard to Katherine Toldervey, 5 July 1626
--John Milton to Ursula Toldervey, 12 Feb. 1621

Also in this batch we find the following baptisms:

--Edward Prince, son of John and Elizabeth, born 7 Nov., bapt. 24 Nov.
1622
--George Prince, son of John and Elizabeth, born 4 Feb., bapt. 11 Feb.
1626
--Katherine Prince, dau. of John and Elizabeth, bapt. 26 July 1629
--Marie Prince, dau. of John and Elizabeth, bapt. 26 Sept. 1630

The nearby parish of GREAT Shefford (batch C002062) has more of the
Prince children's baptisms:

--Joane Prince, dau. of John and Elizabeth, bapt. 9 Oct. 1614
--Dorothye Prince, dau. of John and Elizabeth, bapt. 2 March 1615
--Ursula Prynce, dau. of John and Elizabeth, bapt. Feb. 1619

Further down on p. 174 is the will of Edward Garrard of Inkpen which
mentions his brother-in-law Mr. John Prince.

So far, so good, though still no mention of a John Prince, son of Rev.
John. If we back up to p. 49, we find a list of all these children,
plus two supposedly baptized earlier, Anthony and Anne, born in the
city of Oxford. As to Elder John, supposedly born in 1610, the author
notes: "N.B. As yet no record of birth or baptism revealed - the
latter event probably occurred in Oxford City where father was Curate
for some years." And yet he did track down two births that occurred
in Oxford; why was Elder John's not found there as well? Page 50
indicates there was in existence at one point a list of the children
of Rev. John of Shefford which named two sons, Francis and John, and
mentioned seven anonymous daughters. Notice that there's no Francis
in the current list, inconvenient additional sons Edward and George,
and only six daughters if we make allowance for Anne baptized at
Oxford.

None of this is very encouraging.
* * * * *

On the subject of the other Prence family of Plymouth Colony, the
following snippet shows that the immigrant's father resided in
Allhallows Barking when he made his will in 1630:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y0IxAA ... nce&pgis=1

I believe I've located the marriage of his daughter Katherine (Prence)
Crayford:

Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
--Ambros Crayforde to Kathere Prentis [sic], 25 Aug. 1611

I wonder what authority there is to tie the family back to Lechlade,
co. Gloucester?

John Brandon

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 okt 2007 01:32:23

Pat Bausman's comments from 2005 on the Sargent/Breed connection:

The following is from The Essex Genealogist (13:166 "Allen2 Breed's
Wife Identified as Mary Sargent", Volney A. Plumb):

1. As to the assertions [many on the Internet, but this piece
references P. E. Rittmer and H. V. Crary "Breed 1573 - 1975"] that she
is "Mary Elizabeth Osborne": First, this is much too early for middle
names. Second, a Mary Elizabeth Osborn did marry an Allen B. Breed at
Danvers (per Danvers Vital Records), but this was in 1849, about 200
years after this Mary married.

2. This author's [Plumb] assertion that she is Mary Sargent, daughter
of William:

a. Torrey's source for calling her Mary Sargent was "The
Mayflower
Descendant" 2:185. The will of Ruth Chipman is given in full in that
source and gives "compelling" evidence of Mary's parentage. Ruth
(Sargent) Winslow Bourne Chipman was the daughter of William Sargent
and his 3d wife Sarah [although Plumb erroneously says her mother was
2d wife Mary] and was the half-sister of Mary Sargent, William's
daughter by his 2d wife Mary. Ruth's will names "my kinsman Joseph
Bread", his daughters Sarah and Elizabeth, and two other children of
"my sister Bread". Joseph Breed was the son of Allen2 Breed and his
wife Mary (__) and he (Joseph) had daughters Sarah and Elizabeth.
Given
the reference to the two other children (i.e., other than Joseph), "my
sister Bread" must refer the mother of Joseph Breed. So, Allen's wife
must have been Mary Sargent.

b. The only problem with the theory above is that Moriarty and
others (including Stratton [_Plymouth Colony: Its History and People
1620-1691_, Part Three: Biographical Sketches Sargent, William,] who
was probably quoting Moriarty) have said that Mary, the daughter of
William and his 2d wife Mary, probably died young. Plumb thinks that
she did not die young but that others may have thought she did because
she was not named in her father's will. However, the Mary who married
Allen Breed died in 1671, several years before William Sargent wrote
his will. Also, William and his 1st wife Hannah did have a daughter
Mary who died as an infant in England, which may explain the "died
young" notation.

Plumb ends the article, "In conclusion, having disposed of the
'roadblocks' (the Osborn alternative and the probable early death), I
don't see any way to interpret the will of Mrs. Chipman other than
that
Allen2 Breed's wife was Mary Sargent."

I believe I was given this reference by Gary Boyd Roberts about three
years ago. I have not done any work on this family for a couple of
years, but I assume that he would have been aware of something
better/more recent.

Pat Bausman

John Brandon

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 okt 2007 15:25:52

2d wife Mary] and was the half-sister of Mary Sargent, William's
daughter by his 2d wife Mary. Ruth's will names "my kinsman Joseph
Bread", his daughters Sarah and Elizabeth, and two other children of
"my sister Bread". Joseph Breed was the son of Allen2 Breed and his

Actually, it's "the other children of my sister Bread," not *two*
other children ...

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22my+s ... arch+Books

pj.evans

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av pj.evans » 04 okt 2007 15:55:20

On Oct 3, 5:32 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pat Bausman's comments from 2005 on the Sargent/Breed connection:

The following is from The Essex Genealogist (13:166 "Allen2 Breed's
Wife Identified as Mary Sargent", Volney A. Plumb):

1. As to the assertions [many on the Internet, but this piece
references P. E. Rittmer and H. V. Crary "Breed 1573 - 1975"] that she
is "Mary Elizabeth Osborne": First, this is much too early for middle
names. Second, a Mary Elizabeth Osborn did marry an Allen B. Breed at
Danvers (per Danvers Vital Records), but this was in 1849, about 200
years after this Mary married.

[snip]
Pat Bausman

I usually see this when people are trying to fit together documentary
evidence and a traditional line of which they've become enamored. (It
generally produces some mental screaming.)

John Brandon

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 okt 2007 16:55:39

I usually see this when people are trying to fit together documentary
evidence and a traditional line of which they've become enamored. (It
generally produces some mental screaming.)


You mean two names squeezed together in a period when they wouldn't
have been used ("Mary Elizabeth," "Amber Lou," etc.)? I agree ...
it's annoying ... and quite silly.

From Prince's discussion of Ruth Chipman's medical skills ("very good
skill in ye Diseases of Women & children"), and his statement that she

helped deliver him as a premature infant, perhaps she would have been
a good candidate for inclusion in Ethel F. Smith's recent, flawed book
on early American "doctresses."

Certainly better than poor Mrs. Gifford of Lynn, whose husband had to
be attended to by the noted Dr. John Clarke, chirurgeon of Boston,
after he (Gifford) was sliced by Dr. Philip Reade.

Note also that Mrs. Gifford made notes that she had had to resort to
the skills of "Dr. Gibbs" (who was this?), to attend to her tenant
potters, the Dispaws:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/wit ... ex083.html

Mrs. Smith's ideas about Margaret Gifford seem to derive from one
item, and one item only, the statement that certain people had been
"strangely and badly handled by her" ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=uMMMAA ... ord&pgis=1

All this means--I think--is that she had slapped several men over the
years.

John Brandon

Re: Ruth, dau. of Rev. William Sargent: "a Little, lively, s

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 okt 2007 17:14:56

Certainly better than poor Mrs. Gifford of Lynn, whose husband had to
be attended to by the noted Dr. John Clarke, chirurgeon of Boston,
after he (Gifford) was sliced by Dr. Philip Reade.

Actually, I suppose it would have been Dr. John Clarke, Jr., who
attended John Gifford.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jtYSJe ... %22+boston

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