Fw: King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her ch

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her ch

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 sep 2007 05:48:15

I am glad to see Richardson is keeping this issue alive as many a point
still has to be established.
Remarks below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: alt.history.british, soc.genealogy.medieval,
soc.history.medieval,alt.talk.royalty
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her children


Dear Newsgroup ~

Froissart, who was a contemporary historian. referred to Alice de
Perrers' son, John de Surrey, as a "bastard brother of the king of
England." [Reference: Given-Wilson, Royal Bastards of Medieval England
(1984): 136-142]. Since John de Surrey's mother, Alice de Perrers,
was the mistress of King Edward III of England, he can only have been
the uncle (not brother) to King Edward III's grandson and successor,
King Richard II.
====== On the one hand Richardson refers to Ormerod as a source, but does

not copy Ormerod's spelling of John's surname. Ormerod uses Southeray. In
1951 was published in "The English Historical Review", Volume LXVI an
article by Margaret Galway, in which John has been given a variety of
surnames, de Suthray, Southereye, Southerey, Surray, Surrey.
John de Surrey had two sisters, both named Joan. The elder Joan was
evidently much older than John de Surrey. I believe she was was the
legitimate daughter of Alice de Perrers' hitherto overlooked marriage
to Jankyn de Perrers, which Jankyn was living in 1360.
========== "Much older" ? How much is much? Apparently Alice married Janyn

Perrers about 1360 and he died "before 18 December 1362"
This would make that the elder sister was born roughly in the time span of
1360 to 1363. As Richardson has quoted, John was born about 1364 to 1366.
(I don't agree that this marriage was hitherto overlooked).

Margaret Galway maintains that "Alice Perrers is first heard of in October
1366, when Edward III granted this 'domicella' of the queen two tuns of wine
yearly. (snip) Evidently the notorious connecion of Edward with Alice did
not begin before 1366-7. In other words it _had_ begun by 1366-7, which
means that John was born late 1366 or early 1367, then his elder sister Joan
could have been as much as 7 years older. In that case I would agree with
the remark "The elder Joan was evidently much older then John"..

The elder Joan
married twice. Her first husband was Richard Northland, Knt., who was
an adult by 1373-1374, and was living 4 October 1402. Following his
death, she married (2nd) before 1405 Robert Skerne, of Kingston-upon-
Thames, Surrey, who died in 1437. The elder Joan appears to have been
childless.
======== If the elder Joan was born 1360 to 1363, and when she was about 10

years old her first husband was an adult----but how old are you to be an
adult in those times? 15, 18, 21?

With best wishes,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



As for John de Surrey's second sister, the younger Joan, she was
evidently near in age to John, and used the same surname "de Surrey"
as he did. I beleieve that the younger Joan and John are probable
bastard children of King Edward III. Joan de Surrey married before
1406 to _____ Despaigne (or Despayne), presumably of the Essex
family. It is not know if she left descendants.

Please see the archives of soc.genealogy.medieval for my extensive
references for Alice de Perrers' children.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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