King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her childr

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Douglas Richardson

King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her childr

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 sep 2007 03:26:24

Dear Newsgroup ~

Froissart, who was a contemporary historian. referred to Alice de
Perrers' son, John de Surrey, as a "bastard brother of the king of
England." [Reference: Given-Wilson, Royal Bastards of Medieval England
(1984): 136-142]. Since John de Surrey's mother, Alice de Perrers,
was the mistress of King Edward III of England, he can only have been
the uncle (not brother) to King Edward III's grandson and successor,
King Richard II.

John de Surrey had two sisters, both named Joan. The elder Joan was
evidently much older than John de Surrey. I believe she was was the
legitimate daughter of Alice de Perrers' hitherto overlooked marriage
to Jankyn de Perrers, which Jankyn was living in 1360. The elder Joan
married twice. Her first husband was Richard Northland, Knt., who was
an adult by 1373-1374, and was living 4 October 1402. Following his
death, she married (2nd) before 1405 Robert Skerne, of Kingston-upon-
Thames, Surrey, who died in 1437. The elder Joan appears to have been
childless.

As for John de Surrey's second sister, the younger Joan, she was
evidently near in age to John, and used the same surname "de Surrey"
as he did. I beleieve that the younger Joan and John are probable
bastard children of King Edward III. Joan de Surrey married before
1406 to _____ Despaigne (or Despayne), presumably of the Essex
family. It is not know if she left descendants.

Please see the archives of soc.genealogy.medieval for my extensive
references for Alice de Perrers' children.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 sep 2007 03:45:32

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post just now, I referred to King Edward III's mistress as Alice
de Perrers. Alice usually appears in records as Alice Perrers,
occassionally as "de" Perrers. Thus, it would be better to refer to
her as Alice Perrers, or as Alice [de] Perrers. Alice lived in the
time period when surnames that took a "de" began to drop the "de."
This probably explains why she occurs as both Perrers and as de
Perrers in records.

One other comment: Alice's lawful husband was named Janyn Perrers, not
Jankyn as I stated in my previous post. Evidence of Alice's hitherto
overlooked marriage can be found in a recent article by the noted
historian, Mark Ormrod, which appeared in Chaucer Review, 40 (2006):
219-229.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Briggs

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av John Briggs » 30 sep 2007 15:38:42

Douglas Richardson wrote:
In my post just now, I referred to King Edward III's mistress as Alice
de Perrers. Alice usually appears in records as Alice Perrers,
occassionally as "de" Perrers. Thus, it would be better to refer to
her as Alice Perrers, or as Alice [de] Perrers. Alice lived in the
time period when surnames that took a "de" began to drop the "de."
This probably explains why she occurs as both Perrers and as de
Perrers in records.

I hesitate to do this, but just what do you think you mean by "surnames that
took a 'de' "?

One other comment: Alice's lawful husband was named Janyn Perrers, not
Jankyn as I stated in my previous post. Evidence of Alice's hitherto
overlooked marriage can be found in a recent article by the noted
historian, Mark Ormrod, which appeared in Chaucer Review, 40 (2006):
219-229.

On the whole, "Jankyn" sounds more plausible than "Janyn".
--
John Briggs

Douglas Richardson

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 sep 2007 23:11:05

On Sep 30, 8:38 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
<
< On the whole, "Jankyn" sounds more plausible than "Janyn".
< --
< John Briggs

Dear John ~

Janyn is the correct spelling, not Jankyn. See the archives of
soc.genealogy.medieval for the specific record which names Janyn
Perrers and his wife, Alice.

Mr. Ormrod thinks that Janyn Perrers may have been a foreigner. He
may well be right.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah

CJ Buyers

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av CJ Buyers » 01 okt 2007 07:49:45

On Sep 30, 11:11 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 30, 8:38 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

On the whole, "Jankyn" sounds more plausible than "Janyn".
--
John Briggs

Dear John ~

Janyn is the correct spelling, not Jankyn. See the archives of
soc.genealogy.medieval for the specific record which names Janyn
Perrers and his wife, Alice.

Mr. Ormrod thinks that Janyn Perrers may have been a foreigner. He
may well be right.

"Janyn" isn't necessarily foreign, see http://my.stratos.net/~bmscott/Ormskirk_1381.html

John Watson

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av John Watson » 01 okt 2007 08:20:55

On Oct 1, 6:11 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 30, 8:38 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

On the whole, "Jankyn" sounds more plausible than "Janyn".
--
John Briggs

Dear John ~

Janyn is the correct spelling, not Jankyn. See the archives of
soc.genealogy.medieval for the specific record which names Janyn
Perrers and his wife, Alice.

Mr. Ormrod thinks that Janyn Perrers may have been a foreigner. He
may well be right.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah

The name sounds Welsh to me. Probably something like Jenkyn ap Rhys.

Regards,

John

John Briggs

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice Perrers, and her child

Legg inn av John Briggs » 01 okt 2007 14:36:31

John Watson wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 30, 8:38 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

On the whole, "Jankyn" sounds more plausible than "Janyn".
--
John Briggs

Dear John ~

Janyn is the correct spelling, not Jankyn. See the archives of
soc.genealogy.medieval for the specific record which names Janyn
Perrers and his wife, Alice.

Mr. Ormrod thinks that Janyn Perrers may have been a foreigner. He
may well be right.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah

The name sounds Welsh to me. Probably something like Jenkyn ap Rhys.

There is no letter "J" in Welsh :-)
--
John Briggs

WJhonson

Re: King Edward III's mistress, Alice de Perrers, and her ch

Legg inn av WJhonson » 01 okt 2007 21:10:05

<<In a message dated 09/29/07 19:30:19 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Froissart, who was a contemporary historian. referred to Alice de
Perrers' son, John de Surrey, as a "bastard brother of the king of
England." [Reference: Given-Wilson, Royal Bastards of Medieval England
(1984): 136-142].>>

-----------------------
Froissart's Chronicles is online at Google Books in various editions. I search four of those editions and failed to find the above quoted phrase in any of them.

Will Johnson

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