Botetourt Family Pedigree
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Botetourt Family Pedigree
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a revised and expanded pedigree of the Botetourt family
pedigree: It follows the basic outline of the family presented by
F.N. Craig in his brilliant article, "The Parentage of John Botetourt
(died 1324)" published in The American Genealogist, 63 (1988): 145-
153. I've made various changes due to new evidence which has surfaced
since the Craig article was published.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. Guy Botetourt (I), living 1201-1212.
2. Roger Botetourt, living 1228.
3. Guy Botetourt (II), occurs 1253-1264.
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324.
+ Maud Fitz Thomas, living 1329, dau. of Sir Thomas Fitz Otes,
Knt.
6. Sir Thomas Botetourt, Knt., of Upton, Norfolk and Great
Bradley, Suffolk.
+ Joan de Somery.
6. John Botetourt, K.B., K.B., of Belchamp Otton, Essex.
+ Margaret _____.
6. Otes Botetourt, Knt., of of Mendlesham, Suffolk.
+ Sibyl _____, said to be a Deincourt.
6. Robert Botetourt.
6. Joan Botetourt (affianced to Robert Fitz Walter).
6. Ada Botetourt.
+ Sir John de Saint Philibert, Knt., of Eaton Hastings,
Berkshire.
7. John de Saint Philibert, Knt., 1st Lord Saint
Philibert.
7. Thomas de Saint Philibert.
7. Margaret (or Margery) de Saint Philibert.
+ Richard de Plaiz, Knt., 4th Lord Plaiz.
7. Maud de Saint Philbert.
= Warin Trussell, Knt., of Billesley, Warwickshire.
7. Alice de Saint Philibert.
= Brian de Stapleton, Knt., of Carlton, Yorkshire [see
STAPLETON 8].
6. Elizabeth Botetourt.
+ William le Latimer, 3rd Lord Latimer.
7. William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer.
+ Elizabeth de Arundel.
7. Thomas le Latimer.
5. Sir Ralph Botetourt, Knt., living 1325.
+ NN.
6. Sir Bartholomew Botetourt, Knt.
+ Maud _____.
7. Maud Botetourt.
+ Geoffrey Swaything, living 1386.
6. Baldwin Botetourt.
5. Guy Botetourt (IV), living 1297.
5. Sir William Botetourt, Knt., living 1324.
+ Maud ____.
5. Robert Botetourt, priest, living 1306.
5. [Master] Roger Botetourt, priest, living 1316.
Below is a revised and expanded pedigree of the Botetourt family
pedigree: It follows the basic outline of the family presented by
F.N. Craig in his brilliant article, "The Parentage of John Botetourt
(died 1324)" published in The American Genealogist, 63 (1988): 145-
153. I've made various changes due to new evidence which has surfaced
since the Craig article was published.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. Guy Botetourt (I), living 1201-1212.
2. Roger Botetourt, living 1228.
3. Guy Botetourt (II), occurs 1253-1264.
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324.
+ Maud Fitz Thomas, living 1329, dau. of Sir Thomas Fitz Otes,
Knt.
6. Sir Thomas Botetourt, Knt., of Upton, Norfolk and Great
Bradley, Suffolk.
+ Joan de Somery.
6. John Botetourt, K.B., K.B., of Belchamp Otton, Essex.
+ Margaret _____.
6. Otes Botetourt, Knt., of of Mendlesham, Suffolk.
+ Sibyl _____, said to be a Deincourt.
6. Robert Botetourt.
6. Joan Botetourt (affianced to Robert Fitz Walter).
6. Ada Botetourt.
+ Sir John de Saint Philibert, Knt., of Eaton Hastings,
Berkshire.
7. John de Saint Philibert, Knt., 1st Lord Saint
Philibert.
7. Thomas de Saint Philibert.
7. Margaret (or Margery) de Saint Philibert.
+ Richard de Plaiz, Knt., 4th Lord Plaiz.
7. Maud de Saint Philbert.
= Warin Trussell, Knt., of Billesley, Warwickshire.
7. Alice de Saint Philibert.
= Brian de Stapleton, Knt., of Carlton, Yorkshire [see
STAPLETON 8].
6. Elizabeth Botetourt.
+ William le Latimer, 3rd Lord Latimer.
7. William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer.
+ Elizabeth de Arundel.
7. Thomas le Latimer.
5. Sir Ralph Botetourt, Knt., living 1325.
+ NN.
6. Sir Bartholomew Botetourt, Knt.
+ Maud _____.
7. Maud Botetourt.
+ Geoffrey Swaything, living 1386.
6. Baldwin Botetourt.
5. Guy Botetourt (IV), living 1297.
5. Sir William Botetourt, Knt., living 1324.
+ Maud ____.
5. Robert Botetourt, priest, living 1306.
5. [Master] Roger Botetourt, priest, living 1316.
-
WJhonson
Re: Botetourt Family Pedigree
<<In a message dated 09/26/07 13:25:17 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324. >>
------------------------
And John first appears in a record in 1285, at least a decade before any of his "brothers" appears anywhere, isn't that so? Even though he is supposed to be a third son....
You should mention that above.
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324. >>
------------------------
And John first appears in a record in 1285, at least a decade before any of his "brothers" appears anywhere, isn't that so? Even though he is supposed to be a third son....
You should mention that above.
-
John Watson
Re: Botetourt Family Pedigree
On Sep 27, 4:24 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
So where does Thomas the son of Guy Botetourt fit into this?
Chancery: Certificates of Statute Merchant and Statute Staple C
241/35/295
Debtor: Alan, the son of Ivo de Morley [Forehoe Hundred, Norfolk],
William de Laverfield, of Morley, and Robert Karun, of Morley.
Creditor: Thomas, the son of Guy Buttetourt {Buteturt?} [of Upton,
Walsham Hundred, Norfolk] Amount: £16 13s. 4d. Before
Debtor: Alan, the son of Ivo de Morley [Forehoe Hundred, Norfolk],
William de Laverfield, of Morley, and Robert Karun, of Morley.
Creditor: Thomas, the son of Guy Buttetourt {Buteturt} [of Upton,
Walsham Hundred, Norfolk]
Amount: £16 13s. 4d.
Before whom: William Butt, of Norwich; John de Kirkby, Clerk.
First term: 10/04/1300
Last term: 10/04/1300
Writ to: Sheriff of Norfolk
Sent by: William Butt, of Norwich; John de Kirkby, Clerk.
Covering dates 1301 Jan 31
Regards,
John
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a revised and expanded pedigree of the Botetourt family
pedigree: It follows the basic outline of the family presented by
F.N. Craig in his brilliant article, "The Parentage of John Botetourt
(died 1324)" published in The American Genealogist, 63 (1988): 145-
153. I've made various changes due to new evidence which has surfaced
since the Craig article was published.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. Guy Botetourt (I), living 1201-1212.
2. Roger Botetourt, living 1228.
3. Guy Botetourt (II), occurs 1253-1264.
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324.
+ Maud Fitz Thomas, living 1329, dau. of Sir Thomas Fitz Otes,
Knt.
6. Sir Thomas Botetourt, Knt., of Upton, Norfolk and Great
Bradley, Suffolk.
+ Joan de Somery.
6. John Botetourt, K.B., K.B., of Belchamp Otton, Essex.
+ Margaret _____.
6. Otes Botetourt, Knt., of of Mendlesham, Suffolk.
+ Sibyl _____, said to be a Deincourt.
6. Robert Botetourt.
6. Joan Botetourt (affianced to Robert Fitz Walter).
6. Ada Botetourt.
+ Sir John de Saint Philibert, Knt., of Eaton Hastings,
Berkshire.
7. John de Saint Philibert, Knt., 1st Lord Saint
Philibert.
7. Thomas de Saint Philibert.
7. Margaret (or Margery) de Saint Philibert.
+ Richard de Plaiz, Knt., 4th Lord Plaiz.
7. Maud de Saint Philbert.
= Warin Trussell, Knt., of Billesley, Warwickshire.
7. Alice de Saint Philibert.
= Brian de Stapleton, Knt., of Carlton, Yorkshire [see
STAPLETON 8].
6. Elizabeth Botetourt.
+ William le Latimer, 3rd Lord Latimer.
7. William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer.
+ Elizabeth de Arundel.
7. Thomas le Latimer.
5. Sir Ralph Botetourt, Knt., living 1325.
+ NN.
6. Sir Bartholomew Botetourt, Knt.
+ Maud _____.
7. Maud Botetourt.
+ Geoffrey Swaything, living 1386.
6. Baldwin Botetourt.
5. Guy Botetourt (IV), living 1297.
5. Sir William Botetourt, Knt., living 1324.
+ Maud ____.
5. Robert Botetourt, priest, living 1306.
5. [Master] Roger Botetourt, priest, living 1316.
So where does Thomas the son of Guy Botetourt fit into this?
Chancery: Certificates of Statute Merchant and Statute Staple C
241/35/295
Debtor: Alan, the son of Ivo de Morley [Forehoe Hundred, Norfolk],
William de Laverfield, of Morley, and Robert Karun, of Morley.
Creditor: Thomas, the son of Guy Buttetourt {Buteturt?} [of Upton,
Walsham Hundred, Norfolk] Amount: £16 13s. 4d. Before
Debtor: Alan, the son of Ivo de Morley [Forehoe Hundred, Norfolk],
William de Laverfield, of Morley, and Robert Karun, of Morley.
Creditor: Thomas, the son of Guy Buttetourt {Buteturt} [of Upton,
Walsham Hundred, Norfolk]
Amount: £16 13s. 4d.
Before whom: William Butt, of Norwich; John de Kirkby, Clerk.
First term: 10/04/1300
Last term: 10/04/1300
Writ to: Sheriff of Norfolk
Sent by: William Butt, of Norwich; John de Kirkby, Clerk.
Covering dates 1301 Jan 31
Regards,
John
-
JohnR
Re: Botetourt Family Pedigree
On Sep 26, 9:24 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Does this mean that John Botetourt s/o Thomas + Joan de Somery (PA p.
137) was of different stock?
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a revised and expanded pedigree of the Botetourt family
pedigree: It follows the basic outline of the family presented by
F.N. Craig in his brilliant article, "The Parentage of John Botetourt
(died 1324)" published in The American Genealogist, 63 (1988): 145-
153. I've made various changes due to new evidence which has surfaced
since the Craig article was published.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. Guy Botetourt (I), living 1201-1212.
2. Roger Botetourt, living 1228.
3. Guy Botetourt (II), occurs 1253-1264.
4. Sir Guy Botetourt (III), Knt., of Ellinghall, Norfolk, d. c. 1316,
married Ada _____.
5. Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, died 1324.
+ Maud Fitz Thomas, living 1329, dau. of Sir Thomas Fitz Otes,
Knt.
6. Sir Thomas Botetourt, Knt., of Upton, Norfolk and Great
Bradley, Suffolk.
+ Joan de Somery.
6. John Botetourt, K.B., K.B., of Belchamp Otton, Essex.
Does this mean that John Botetourt s/o Thomas + Joan de Somery (PA p.
137) was of different stock?
-
Douglas Richardson
Account of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt (die
Dear Newsgroup ~
Please find below an updated and expanded account of Sir John
Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, died 1324, and his wife, Maud
Fitz Thomas. The account provides new particulars of their life and
immediate family not posted previously. All of my sources are cited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. JOHN BOTETOURT (or BOUTECOURTE, BOTECOURT, BUTECOURT), Knt., of
Ellingham, Cantley, Kerebrook, and Upton, Norfolk, and, in right of
his wife, of Mendlesham, Suffolk, Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire,
etc., Admiral of the North Fleet, Warden of the Forest of Dean and
Constable of St. Briavels Castle, 1291-1308, Governor of Framlingham
Castle, Suffolk, son and heir of Guy Botetourt, Knt., of Ellingham,
Cantley, Cranworth, Fishley, Kimberley, and Upton, Norfolk, by his
wife, Ada. He began his household career as a falconer in the 1270s.
He married before June 1282 MAUD FITZ THOMAS, daughter of Thomas Fitz
Otes, Knt., of Mendlesham, Suffolk, Belchamp Otton, Gestingthorpe, and
Gosfield, Essex, and Hamerton, Huntingdonshire, hereditary coiner of
the Mint in the Tower of London and City of Canterbury, by Beatrice,
daughter of William de Beauchamp, Knt., of Bedford, Bedfordshire. She
was born about 1269-72 (aged 26 in 1295, aged 30 in 1302). They had
four sons, Thomas, Knt., John, K.B., Otes, Knt., and Robert, and
several daughters, including Joan (affianced to Robert Fitz Walter),
Ada, and Elizabeth. He first campaigned in Wales in 1282 as a squire
of the household. His wife, Maud, was co-heiress in 1283 to her
brother, Otes Fitz Thomas, and sole heiress in 1285 to her sister,
Joan, wife of Guy Ferre, by which she inherited the hereditary office
of coiner of the Mint, together with the manors of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, and Belchamp Otton, Gestingthorpe, and Gosfield, Essex,
Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire, and a one-third share of the
barony of Bedford, Bedfordshire. In 1286 he claimed view of
frankpledge and free warren in Hamerton, Huntingdonshire. Sometime in
the period, 1291-1302, Maud was heiress to her cousin, Joan, daughter
of Hugh Fitz Otes, by which she inherited the manor of Isenhampstead
(in Chesham), Buckinghamshire. In 1292-1293 he was a justice of gaol
delivery in Warwickshire and Leicestershire. In 1294 when the king
faced the threat of French galleys raiding the south coast of England,
he appointed two household knights, William de Leybourne and John
Botetourt as captain and sub-captain of the fleet. In the following
year they were described as admirals-the first use of the term in
England. In 1296 he commanded 94 ships taken from ports between
Harwich and and King's Lynn, the great majority from Yarmouth. In
1298 and 1299 he served on four commissions of oyer and terminer. In
1300 he complained William de Wolcherchehaw, taverner, beat one of his
carters and did "other enormities;" the defendant came into court and
pledged a cask of wine to him. He was present at the Siege of
Caerlaverock Castle in 1300; the metrical chronicler of that siege
described him as "light of heart and doing good to all." He was one
of the barons who signed the letter to the Pope in 1301. In 1304 he
led a raid into Nithsdale with 130 cavalry and 1,770 infantry. The
same year the king ordered him to assist Robert de Brus, then on the
English side, in transporting one great engine in preparation of the
siege train for the siege of Stirling in Scotland. He was summoned to
Parliament from 13 July 1305 to 13 Sept. 1324, by writs directed
Johanni Botetourt, whereby he may be held to have become Lord
Botetourt. In 1305 he was appointed one of the justices of
trailbaston. The same year he was sent to treat with the Scots on the
affairs of that kingdom. In 1306 he enrolled himself as performing
the service of one knight in Scotland, but in fact he had a contingent
of three knights and eleven squires with him. In 1307 he again
commanded a raid against the Scots. In 1309-1310 William Fitz Walter
conveyed him and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk.
In 1310 he obtained a license to alienate lands and rents in
Mendlesham, Suffolk in mortmain to the value of 100s. for a chaplain
to celebrate in Mendlesham church. In 1311 he presented his brother,
Robert Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In Oct. 1311
he and his wife, Maud, were granted the reversion of the manors of
Fulbourn, Cambridgeshire and Great Carbooke, Norfolk by Baldwin de
Manners, Knt., who died childless in 1320; John sold the former manor
to William la Zouche Mortimer, Knt., Lord Zouche, and Alice his wife
in 1323. In 1314 he commanded the fleet employed in the expedition
against Scotland. The same year Peter de Burgate, Knt., released all
his right in the manor of Mendlesham, Suffolk to him and his wife,
Maud. In 1315 he complained that those recruited for his company were
"feeble chaps, not strong enough, not properly dressed, and lacking
bows and arrows." In 1316 he presented his brother, Master Roger
Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In 1318 he again
presented to the church of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In 1321 he and his
wife, Maud, sold the manor of Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire to
John de Wysham, Knt., and his wife, Hawise de Poynings; about the same
time he also conveyed the manor of Ellingham, Norfolk to the same
couple. John joined the rebellion of Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, and
fought at the Battle of Boroughbridge 16 March 1321/2, for which he
was fined £1000, and was pardoned 8 Oct. 1322. In 1323 he and his
wife, Maud, conveyed the manor of Isenhampstead (in Chesham),
Buckinghamshire to Hugh le Despenser the younger, but, on Hugh's
execution and attainder in 1326, the manor escheated to the crown and
custody was re-granted to Maud Botetourt. In 1324 he paid the Italian
bankers, the Peruzzi, 100 marks, evidently in payment of a debt he
owed to Hugh le Despenser the younger. SIR JOHN BOTETOURT, 1st Lord
Botetourt, died 25 Nov. 1324. In 1327 his widow, Maud, sued Robert
son of John Botetourt, John de Wynchestre and others regarding
unspecified land in Suffolk. She was living 28 May 1329, when she
sold the hereditary office of coiner of the Mint to her son-in-law,
William le Latimer. She presumably died in or before 1330, when her
son, Otes Botetourt, obtained a license to alienate in mortmain a
messuage in Mendlesham, Suffolk to a chaplain to celebrate in the
parish church for the souls of John Botetourt and Maud his wife.
[Note: The author F.N. Craig published a brilliant article entitled
"The Parentage of John Botetourt (died 1324)" in TAG 63 (1988): 145-
153, which article provides compelling evidence that Sir John
Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, is the son and heir of Guy Botetourt,
Knt. (died c. 1316), of Ellingham, Norfolk, by his wife, Ada.
Specifically, Mr. Craig showed that Sir Guy Botetourt had the manors
of Ellingham (his chief seat), Uphall (in Cantley), and Upton, and
lands at Fishley, Norfolk, all of which passed to Sir John Botetourt,
1st Lord Botetourt, or his descendants. For additional evidence of
Sir John Botetourt's parentage, see Byerly Recs. of the Wardrobe and
Household 1286-1289 (1986): 258, which mentions Robert brother of John
Botetourt. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 15 in turn names a Robert
son of Guy Botetourt, a priest, who was living in 1306. Presumably
the same Robert Botetourt is involved in both records. Elsewhere C.J.
Perceval in Procs. Soc. of Antiquaries of London 2nd ser. 4 (1869):
200-201 states that Robert Botetourt is named in a contemporary deed
as brother to Master Roger Botetourt, which Roger is known to have
been a son of Sir Guy Botetourt [see, for example, Rye, Pedes Finium
or Fines Rel. Cambridge (1891): 90]. Master Roger is likewise almost
certainly the same person as the Roger Botetourt who was rector of
Little Ellingham, Norfolk, which advowson was held by Sir John
Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, in 1317 (see Watkin, Inventory of
Church Goods temp. Edward III (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 19(2)) (1948): 137,
215). Lastly, new research indicates that Sir John Boteourt appointed
Robert Botetourt as rector at Great Bradley, Suffolk in 1311, and
Master Roger Botetourt as rector of the same place in 1316. Taken
together, the various pieces of evidence and the close association of
these individuals make it clear that Sir John, Robert, and Master
Roger Botetourt were all sons of the elder Sir Guy Botetourt, Knt., of
Ellingham, Norfolk, who died c.1316].
References:
Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topographical Hist. of the County of
Norfolk 11 (1810): 133. Blore, Hist. & Antiq. of Rutland 1(2) (1811):
90, 209 (Botetourt Peds.). Palgrave, The Antient Kalendars and
Inventories of the Treasury of His Majesty's Exchequer 1 (1836): 102.
Ruding, Annals of the Coinage of Great Britain & its Dependencies 2
(1840): 194. Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 131 (sub Botetourt).
Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiq. of Buckingham 4 (1847): 276 (Botetourt
pedigree). Foss, Judges of England 3 (1851): 38, 57-59 (biog. of John
de Botetourt). The Gentleman's Mag. (1855): 159. Notes & Queries 4th
ser. 4 (1869): 572; 4th ser. 5 (1870): 131-132. Burke, Dormant,
Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 63-64 (sub
Botetourt). Procs. Suffolk Institute of Archæology & Natural Hist. 5
(1886): 259-261. Hill, A Hist. of Upton, Norfolk (1891): following 8
(Botetourt pedigree), 9-10. Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. the
County of Cambridge (1891): 89. Hardy, Cal. of Feet of Fines for
London & Middlesex 1 (1892): 220. C.P.R. 1292-1301 (1895): 458, 460-
461. Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 251. C.C.R. 1333-1337 (1898): 549,
552 (mentions "gift and grant" of Ellingham, Norfolk by John Botetourt
to John and Hawise de Wysham, for the service of a sparrow hawk).
Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 119, 152, 154. List of
Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 17) (1904): 238, 252.
Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 5 (1906): 129-130. D.N.B. 2 (1908): 909
(biog. of John de Bottetourt). VCH Bedford 2 (1908): 203, 256, 275; 3
(1912): 9-15, 46, 235. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 277-
281. Index of Placita de Banco 1327-1328 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32)
(1910): 603. C.P. 2 (1912): 233-235 (sub Botetourt); 4 (1916): 744-
745 (Appendix H); 5 (1926): 475-476 (sub FitzWalter); 8 (1932): 381,
footnote g (sub Manners). VCH Bedford 3 (1912): 13, 46, 96, 235,
330. Cal. IPMs 4 (1913): 64-65; 6 (1910): 367-368. Turner, Cal. of
the Feet of Fines rel. to the County of Huntingdon (1913): 45, 62.
Thomas, Cal. of Early Mayor's Court Rolls 1298-1307 (1924): 53, 59,
225. VCH Worcester 4 (1924): 331-334. VCH Buckinghamshire 3 (1925):
203-218, 387-391. Moor, Knights of Edward I 1 (H.S.P. 80) (1929): 122-
123. Salter, Boarstall Cartulary (Oxford Hist. Soc.1st ser. 88)
(1930): 300, 318. VCH Huntingdon 3 (1936): 67. Fowler, Cal. of IPMs
2 (Bedfords. Hist. Rec. Soc. 19) (1937): 150-151. Hatton, Book of
Seals (1950): 66-67. Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 10-12.
Denholm-Young, Hist. & Heraldry (1965): 38-39. Prestwich, War,
Politics and Finance under Edward I (1972): 57-58. DeWindt, Royal
Justice and the Medieval English Countryside 2 (1981): 562. Ellis,
Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 2 (1981): 15 (seal of John Botetourt dated
1315-Hung from a hook, between two wyverns, a shield of arms: a
saltire engrailed. Legend: ...GILL...IS:BOUTETOURTE. Very clear
impression, edge partly lost.). Prestwich "Royal Patronage under
Edward I" (13th Cent. England I) (1986): 46 ("The accounts of dona
suggest that Edward I was rather less generous than his son. John
Botetourt was not rewarded for his services as admiral with a gift of
£500 by Edward I, as he was by Edward II."). Fryde, Studies in
Medieval Trade & Finance (1983): 6. TAG 63 (1988): 145-153; 65
(1990): 24-32. Leese, Blood Royal (1996): 134 (incorrectly identifies
John Botetourt as illegitimate son of King Edward I of England).
Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English
Experience (1996): 43, 55, 73, 124, 168, 276, 280, 291. VCH
Gloucester 5 (1996): 413-415. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-
1307) 2 (1997): 65 (arms of John Botetourt: Or, a saltire indented
sable; he "sealed with a pierced cinquefoil, each leaf charged with a
saltire indented in 1297, 1301, 1307, 1310, 1315; his wife Maud
impaled these arms, 1310 and 1327"). Prestwich, Edward I (1997): 131-
132 ("Edward [I] appears to have been remarkably faithful to his
queens ... there is the curious inclusion of John Botetourt in a
genealogical table in a Hailes Abbey chronicle. His name appears to
be written over an erasure, and there is nothing in Botetourt's career
to suggest that he was an illegitimate son of the king. He first
appeared in royal service as a falconer, but rose to high rank,
becoming a banneret in 1298. He was of East Anglian gentry origin,
and became lord of Mendlesham through marriage. It is possible that
the scribe intended to put the name of Edward's daughter Elizabeth's
husband where Botetourt's now features. This evidence places no more
than a question mark against Edward's fidelity. Edward's grandfather
John and his great-grandfather Henry II had not been faithful
husbands, but attitudes and expectations changed in the thirteenth
century. Henry III's reputation had been impeccable, as of course had
that of Louis IX. It would have been surprising had Edward not
followed the precedent set by two kings whom he greatly admired. In
general terms, the Hailes chronicle is a reliable source, but in the
absence of any corroborative evidence, it is difficult to credit the
evidence of this genealogical table. It is worth noting that Edward
II's bastard son was duly acknowledged as such in a royal record,
there is no such evidence in the case of John Botetourt"). Rodger,
The Safeguard of the Sea (1998): 86, 131-132. VCH Cambridge 10
(2002): 136-143. Prestwich, The Three Edwards: War and State in
England, 1272-1377 (2003): 62, 75, 263. Barrow, Robert Bruce & the
Community of the Realm of Scotland (2005): 185, 212, 221.
Please find below an updated and expanded account of Sir John
Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, died 1324, and his wife, Maud
Fitz Thomas. The account provides new particulars of their life and
immediate family not posted previously. All of my sources are cited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
BOTETOURT FAMILY
1. JOHN BOTETOURT (or BOUTECOURTE, BOTECOURT, BUTECOURT), Knt., of
Ellingham, Cantley, Kerebrook, and Upton, Norfolk, and, in right of
his wife, of Mendlesham, Suffolk, Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire,
etc., Admiral of the North Fleet, Warden of the Forest of Dean and
Constable of St. Briavels Castle, 1291-1308, Governor of Framlingham
Castle, Suffolk, son and heir of Guy Botetourt, Knt., of Ellingham,
Cantley, Cranworth, Fishley, Kimberley, and Upton, Norfolk, by his
wife, Ada. He began his household career as a falconer in the 1270s.
He married before June 1282 MAUD FITZ THOMAS, daughter of Thomas Fitz
Otes, Knt., of Mendlesham, Suffolk, Belchamp Otton, Gestingthorpe, and
Gosfield, Essex, and Hamerton, Huntingdonshire, hereditary coiner of
the Mint in the Tower of London and City of Canterbury, by Beatrice,
daughter of William de Beauchamp, Knt., of Bedford, Bedfordshire. She
was born about 1269-72 (aged 26 in 1295, aged 30 in 1302). They had
four sons, Thomas, Knt., John, K.B., Otes, Knt., and Robert, and
several daughters, including Joan (affianced to Robert Fitz Walter),
Ada, and Elizabeth. He first campaigned in Wales in 1282 as a squire
of the household. His wife, Maud, was co-heiress in 1283 to her
brother, Otes Fitz Thomas, and sole heiress in 1285 to her sister,
Joan, wife of Guy Ferre, by which she inherited the hereditary office
of coiner of the Mint, together with the manors of Mendlesham,
Suffolk, and Belchamp Otton, Gestingthorpe, and Gosfield, Essex,
Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire, and a one-third share of the
barony of Bedford, Bedfordshire. In 1286 he claimed view of
frankpledge and free warren in Hamerton, Huntingdonshire. Sometime in
the period, 1291-1302, Maud was heiress to her cousin, Joan, daughter
of Hugh Fitz Otes, by which she inherited the manor of Isenhampstead
(in Chesham), Buckinghamshire. In 1292-1293 he was a justice of gaol
delivery in Warwickshire and Leicestershire. In 1294 when the king
faced the threat of French galleys raiding the south coast of England,
he appointed two household knights, William de Leybourne and John
Botetourt as captain and sub-captain of the fleet. In the following
year they were described as admirals-the first use of the term in
England. In 1296 he commanded 94 ships taken from ports between
Harwich and and King's Lynn, the great majority from Yarmouth. In
1298 and 1299 he served on four commissions of oyer and terminer. In
1300 he complained William de Wolcherchehaw, taverner, beat one of his
carters and did "other enormities;" the defendant came into court and
pledged a cask of wine to him. He was present at the Siege of
Caerlaverock Castle in 1300; the metrical chronicler of that siege
described him as "light of heart and doing good to all." He was one
of the barons who signed the letter to the Pope in 1301. In 1304 he
led a raid into Nithsdale with 130 cavalry and 1,770 infantry. The
same year the king ordered him to assist Robert de Brus, then on the
English side, in transporting one great engine in preparation of the
siege train for the siege of Stirling in Scotland. He was summoned to
Parliament from 13 July 1305 to 13 Sept. 1324, by writs directed
Johanni Botetourt, whereby he may be held to have become Lord
Botetourt. In 1305 he was appointed one of the justices of
trailbaston. The same year he was sent to treat with the Scots on the
affairs of that kingdom. In 1306 he enrolled himself as performing
the service of one knight in Scotland, but in fact he had a contingent
of three knights and eleven squires with him. In 1307 he again
commanded a raid against the Scots. In 1309-1310 William Fitz Walter
conveyed him and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk.
In 1310 he obtained a license to alienate lands and rents in
Mendlesham, Suffolk in mortmain to the value of 100s. for a chaplain
to celebrate in Mendlesham church. In 1311 he presented his brother,
Robert Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In Oct. 1311
he and his wife, Maud, were granted the reversion of the manors of
Fulbourn, Cambridgeshire and Great Carbooke, Norfolk by Baldwin de
Manners, Knt., who died childless in 1320; John sold the former manor
to William la Zouche Mortimer, Knt., Lord Zouche, and Alice his wife
in 1323. In 1314 he commanded the fleet employed in the expedition
against Scotland. The same year Peter de Burgate, Knt., released all
his right in the manor of Mendlesham, Suffolk to him and his wife,
Maud. In 1315 he complained that those recruited for his company were
"feeble chaps, not strong enough, not properly dressed, and lacking
bows and arrows." In 1316 he presented his brother, Master Roger
Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In 1318 he again
presented to the church of Great Bradley, Suffolk. In 1321 he and his
wife, Maud, sold the manor of Shelsley Beauchamp, Worcestershire to
John de Wysham, Knt., and his wife, Hawise de Poynings; about the same
time he also conveyed the manor of Ellingham, Norfolk to the same
couple. John joined the rebellion of Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, and
fought at the Battle of Boroughbridge 16 March 1321/2, for which he
was fined £1000, and was pardoned 8 Oct. 1322. In 1323 he and his
wife, Maud, conveyed the manor of Isenhampstead (in Chesham),
Buckinghamshire to Hugh le Despenser the younger, but, on Hugh's
execution and attainder in 1326, the manor escheated to the crown and
custody was re-granted to Maud Botetourt. In 1324 he paid the Italian
bankers, the Peruzzi, 100 marks, evidently in payment of a debt he
owed to Hugh le Despenser the younger. SIR JOHN BOTETOURT, 1st Lord
Botetourt, died 25 Nov. 1324. In 1327 his widow, Maud, sued Robert
son of John Botetourt, John de Wynchestre and others regarding
unspecified land in Suffolk. She was living 28 May 1329, when she
sold the hereditary office of coiner of the Mint to her son-in-law,
William le Latimer. She presumably died in or before 1330, when her
son, Otes Botetourt, obtained a license to alienate in mortmain a
messuage in Mendlesham, Suffolk to a chaplain to celebrate in the
parish church for the souls of John Botetourt and Maud his wife.
[Note: The author F.N. Craig published a brilliant article entitled
"The Parentage of John Botetourt (died 1324)" in TAG 63 (1988): 145-
153, which article provides compelling evidence that Sir John
Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, is the son and heir of Guy Botetourt,
Knt. (died c. 1316), of Ellingham, Norfolk, by his wife, Ada.
Specifically, Mr. Craig showed that Sir Guy Botetourt had the manors
of Ellingham (his chief seat), Uphall (in Cantley), and Upton, and
lands at Fishley, Norfolk, all of which passed to Sir John Botetourt,
1st Lord Botetourt, or his descendants. For additional evidence of
Sir John Botetourt's parentage, see Byerly Recs. of the Wardrobe and
Household 1286-1289 (1986): 258, which mentions Robert brother of John
Botetourt. Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 15 in turn names a Robert
son of Guy Botetourt, a priest, who was living in 1306. Presumably
the same Robert Botetourt is involved in both records. Elsewhere C.J.
Perceval in Procs. Soc. of Antiquaries of London 2nd ser. 4 (1869):
200-201 states that Robert Botetourt is named in a contemporary deed
as brother to Master Roger Botetourt, which Roger is known to have
been a son of Sir Guy Botetourt [see, for example, Rye, Pedes Finium
or Fines Rel. Cambridge (1891): 90]. Master Roger is likewise almost
certainly the same person as the Roger Botetourt who was rector of
Little Ellingham, Norfolk, which advowson was held by Sir John
Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, in 1317 (see Watkin, Inventory of
Church Goods temp. Edward III (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 19(2)) (1948): 137,
215). Lastly, new research indicates that Sir John Boteourt appointed
Robert Botetourt as rector at Great Bradley, Suffolk in 1311, and
Master Roger Botetourt as rector of the same place in 1316. Taken
together, the various pieces of evidence and the close association of
these individuals make it clear that Sir John, Robert, and Master
Roger Botetourt were all sons of the elder Sir Guy Botetourt, Knt., of
Ellingham, Norfolk, who died c.1316].
References:
Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topographical Hist. of the County of
Norfolk 11 (1810): 133. Blore, Hist. & Antiq. of Rutland 1(2) (1811):
90, 209 (Botetourt Peds.). Palgrave, The Antient Kalendars and
Inventories of the Treasury of His Majesty's Exchequer 1 (1836): 102.
Ruding, Annals of the Coinage of Great Britain & its Dependencies 2
(1840): 194. Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 131 (sub Botetourt).
Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiq. of Buckingham 4 (1847): 276 (Botetourt
pedigree). Foss, Judges of England 3 (1851): 38, 57-59 (biog. of John
de Botetourt). The Gentleman's Mag. (1855): 159. Notes & Queries 4th
ser. 4 (1869): 572; 4th ser. 5 (1870): 131-132. Burke, Dormant,
Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages (1883): 63-64 (sub
Botetourt). Procs. Suffolk Institute of Archæology & Natural Hist. 5
(1886): 259-261. Hill, A Hist. of Upton, Norfolk (1891): following 8
(Botetourt pedigree), 9-10. Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. the
County of Cambridge (1891): 89. Hardy, Cal. of Feet of Fines for
London & Middlesex 1 (1892): 220. C.P.R. 1292-1301 (1895): 458, 460-
461. Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 251. C.C.R. 1333-1337 (1898): 549,
552 (mentions "gift and grant" of Ellingham, Norfolk by John Botetourt
to John and Hawise de Wysham, for the service of a sparrow hawk).
Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 119, 152, 154. List of
Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 17) (1904): 238, 252.
Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 5 (1906): 129-130. D.N.B. 2 (1908): 909
(biog. of John de Bottetourt). VCH Bedford 2 (1908): 203, 256, 275; 3
(1912): 9-15, 46, 235. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 277-
281. Index of Placita de Banco 1327-1328 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32)
(1910): 603. C.P. 2 (1912): 233-235 (sub Botetourt); 4 (1916): 744-
745 (Appendix H); 5 (1926): 475-476 (sub FitzWalter); 8 (1932): 381,
footnote g (sub Manners). VCH Bedford 3 (1912): 13, 46, 96, 235,
330. Cal. IPMs 4 (1913): 64-65; 6 (1910): 367-368. Turner, Cal. of
the Feet of Fines rel. to the County of Huntingdon (1913): 45, 62.
Thomas, Cal. of Early Mayor's Court Rolls 1298-1307 (1924): 53, 59,
225. VCH Worcester 4 (1924): 331-334. VCH Buckinghamshire 3 (1925):
203-218, 387-391. Moor, Knights of Edward I 1 (H.S.P. 80) (1929): 122-
123. Salter, Boarstall Cartulary (Oxford Hist. Soc.1st ser. 88)
(1930): 300, 318. VCH Huntingdon 3 (1936): 67. Fowler, Cal. of IPMs
2 (Bedfords. Hist. Rec. Soc. 19) (1937): 150-151. Hatton, Book of
Seals (1950): 66-67. Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 10-12.
Denholm-Young, Hist. & Heraldry (1965): 38-39. Prestwich, War,
Politics and Finance under Edward I (1972): 57-58. DeWindt, Royal
Justice and the Medieval English Countryside 2 (1981): 562. Ellis,
Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 2 (1981): 15 (seal of John Botetourt dated
1315-Hung from a hook, between two wyverns, a shield of arms: a
saltire engrailed. Legend: ...GILL...IS:BOUTETOURTE. Very clear
impression, edge partly lost.). Prestwich "Royal Patronage under
Edward I" (13th Cent. England I) (1986): 46 ("The accounts of dona
suggest that Edward I was rather less generous than his son. John
Botetourt was not rewarded for his services as admiral with a gift of
£500 by Edward I, as he was by Edward II."). Fryde, Studies in
Medieval Trade & Finance (1983): 6. TAG 63 (1988): 145-153; 65
(1990): 24-32. Leese, Blood Royal (1996): 134 (incorrectly identifies
John Botetourt as illegitimate son of King Edward I of England).
Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English
Experience (1996): 43, 55, 73, 124, 168, 276, 280, 291. VCH
Gloucester 5 (1996): 413-415. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-
1307) 2 (1997): 65 (arms of John Botetourt: Or, a saltire indented
sable; he "sealed with a pierced cinquefoil, each leaf charged with a
saltire indented in 1297, 1301, 1307, 1310, 1315; his wife Maud
impaled these arms, 1310 and 1327"). Prestwich, Edward I (1997): 131-
132 ("Edward [I] appears to have been remarkably faithful to his
queens ... there is the curious inclusion of John Botetourt in a
genealogical table in a Hailes Abbey chronicle. His name appears to
be written over an erasure, and there is nothing in Botetourt's career
to suggest that he was an illegitimate son of the king. He first
appeared in royal service as a falconer, but rose to high rank,
becoming a banneret in 1298. He was of East Anglian gentry origin,
and became lord of Mendlesham through marriage. It is possible that
the scribe intended to put the name of Edward's daughter Elizabeth's
husband where Botetourt's now features. This evidence places no more
than a question mark against Edward's fidelity. Edward's grandfather
John and his great-grandfather Henry II had not been faithful
husbands, but attitudes and expectations changed in the thirteenth
century. Henry III's reputation had been impeccable, as of course had
that of Louis IX. It would have been surprising had Edward not
followed the precedent set by two kings whom he greatly admired. In
general terms, the Hailes chronicle is a reliable source, but in the
absence of any corroborative evidence, it is difficult to credit the
evidence of this genealogical table. It is worth noting that Edward
II's bastard son was duly acknowledged as such in a royal record,
there is no such evidence in the case of John Botetourt"). Rodger,
The Safeguard of the Sea (1998): 86, 131-132. VCH Cambridge 10
(2002): 136-143. Prestwich, The Three Edwards: War and State in
England, 1272-1377 (2003): 62, 75, 263. Barrow, Robert Bruce & the
Community of the Realm of Scotland (2005): 185, 212, 221.
-
François R. Velde
stop mindless cross-posting (was Re: Account of Sir John Bot
Could you please pay attention to your settings? I count 24 postings of yours
to alt.talk.royalty since September 19, none of which are on topic. (And I
doubt the folks in alt.history.british find them appropriate either).
As for anyone following up, please remove alt.talk.royalty from the "To" field
as appropriate.
--
François Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
to alt.talk.royalty since September 19, none of which are on topic. (And I
doubt the folks in alt.history.british find them appropriate either).
As for anyone following up, please remove alt.talk.royalty from the "To" field
as appropriate.
--
François Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
Douglas Richardson
François can count, but he can't read
On Sep 28, 9:57 pm, François R. Velde <ve...@heraldicanospam.invalid>
wrote:
< Could you please pay attention to your settings? I count 24
postings of yours
< to alt.talk.royalty since September 19, none of which are on topic.
(And I
< doubt the folks in alt.history.british find them appropriate
either).
<
< As for anyone following up, please remove alt.talk.royalty from the
"To" field
< as appropriate.
< --
< François Velde
< ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
< Heraldry Site:http://www.heraldica.org/
Evidently François can count, but he can't read. According to the
posted guidelines of alt.talk.royalty on Google Groups, this is a
discussion group "devoted to royalty and nobility." My last post
regarding Sir John Botetourt is related to both of these topics. Sir
John Botetourt has been alleged in print to have been the illegitimate
son of King Edward I of England .... that is, he has been claimed to
be a royal bastard. This false allegation is finally being put to
rest with concrete evidence to prove his correct parentage. That
issue aside, Sir John Botetourt's wife, Maud Fitz Thomas, is herself a
proven descendant of King Henry II of England, and thus she is part of
the medieval English royal family. That's royal and that's noble.
The topic of my post is likewise related to alt.history.british, as
Sir John Botetourt was one of the first two admirals ever in England.
That's definitely historical and British.
Having said that, I just reviewed the most recent topics on
alt.talk.royalty which topics François seems to have no trouble
reading. Get ready - they're gems.
Kenwood Car Stereo KDC-135 balanced Left and Right Channel has no bass
fixing cracked weld in JD loader arm
Cdns Want Crackdown On Organized Crime
Add volume to sub box using a capped pipe?
Al Qaeda in Iraq
ZZZ -- Pain Sluts and Other Extremists
Swastika in language - Ancient Sanskrit for meshed S-shapes &
socialist concepts? see Dr. Rex Curry
Salt water is flammable when bombarded with radio frequency energy and
could possibly be used as a fuel
Iran frees American from prison
Differences between Conservative and Liberals
Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: Spirit-guided exegesis of Psalm 82.
Adult college student struggles with Chem 103
If Pain Sluts and other extremists and Al Qaeda are "on topic" for a
discussion group devoted to "royalty and nobility," then surely so is
Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and his wife, Maud Fitz
Thomas. Or, is François kidding himself? I'm sure he is.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wrote:
< Could you please pay attention to your settings? I count 24
postings of yours
< to alt.talk.royalty since September 19, none of which are on topic.
(And I
< doubt the folks in alt.history.british find them appropriate
either).
<
< As for anyone following up, please remove alt.talk.royalty from the
"To" field
< as appropriate.
< --
< François Velde
< ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
< Heraldry Site:http://www.heraldica.org/
Evidently François can count, but he can't read. According to the
posted guidelines of alt.talk.royalty on Google Groups, this is a
discussion group "devoted to royalty and nobility." My last post
regarding Sir John Botetourt is related to both of these topics. Sir
John Botetourt has been alleged in print to have been the illegitimate
son of King Edward I of England .... that is, he has been claimed to
be a royal bastard. This false allegation is finally being put to
rest with concrete evidence to prove his correct parentage. That
issue aside, Sir John Botetourt's wife, Maud Fitz Thomas, is herself a
proven descendant of King Henry II of England, and thus she is part of
the medieval English royal family. That's royal and that's noble.
The topic of my post is likewise related to alt.history.british, as
Sir John Botetourt was one of the first two admirals ever in England.
That's definitely historical and British.
Having said that, I just reviewed the most recent topics on
alt.talk.royalty which topics François seems to have no trouble
reading. Get ready - they're gems.
Kenwood Car Stereo KDC-135 balanced Left and Right Channel has no bass
fixing cracked weld in JD loader arm
Cdns Want Crackdown On Organized Crime
Add volume to sub box using a capped pipe?
Al Qaeda in Iraq
ZZZ -- Pain Sluts and Other Extremists
Swastika in language - Ancient Sanskrit for meshed S-shapes &
socialist concepts? see Dr. Rex Curry
Salt water is flammable when bombarded with radio frequency energy and
could possibly be used as a fuel
Iran frees American from prison
Differences between Conservative and Liberals
Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: Spirit-guided exegesis of Psalm 82.
Adult college student struggles with Chem 103
If Pain Sluts and other extremists and Al Qaeda are "on topic" for a
discussion group devoted to "royalty and nobility," then surely so is
Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and his wife, Maud Fitz
Thomas. Or, is François kidding himself? I'm sure he is.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: François can count, but he can't read
[Mr. Richardson. The renaming of threads to include the name of
another poster with whom you happen to disagree in this manner is
considered extremely rude. It is the behavior of the USENET kook, and
hardly appropriate for one who pontificates about courtesy.]
On Sep 29, 1:41 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Ah yes, courtesy.
And still Mr. Richardson pretends Google governs USENET. Topicality is
determined by a newsgroup's charter, not by a company that runs the
posting agent you happen to use. Yahoo doesn't tell you what is
appropriate for your web page. Babelfish doesn't tell you what to
translate. Apple doesn't tell you what you can say on your iPhone, and
Google doesn't make the rules for USENET.
Here is a free hint. The word 'historical' does not appear in that
description, and the group is not in the soc.history.* or
alt.history.* hierarchies. It is for the discussion of current and
recent royalty and nobility, not Babylonian royalty, Roman nobility,
Visigoth royalty or Venetian nobility, nor some purported 14th century
English royal bastard.
What could possibly give you that impression?
This is exactly the problem. One arrogant blowhard thinks what they
have to say is so important that it should go to groups in which it
has no business being. Every such message gives the next arrogant
blowhard implied permission to do the same. You are using the "but he
did it too" argument.
taf
another poster with whom you happen to disagree in this manner is
considered extremely rude. It is the behavior of the USENET kook, and
hardly appropriate for one who pontificates about courtesy.]
On Sep 29, 1:41 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Evidently François can count, but he can't read.
Ah yes, courtesy.
According to the
posted guidelines of alt.talk.royalty on Google Groups
And still Mr. Richardson pretends Google governs USENET. Topicality is
determined by a newsgroup's charter, not by a company that runs the
posting agent you happen to use. Yahoo doesn't tell you what is
appropriate for your web page. Babelfish doesn't tell you what to
translate. Apple doesn't tell you what you can say on your iPhone, and
Google doesn't make the rules for USENET.
, this is a
discussion group "devoted to royalty and nobility."
Here is a free hint. The word 'historical' does not appear in that
description, and the group is not in the soc.history.* or
alt.history.* hierarchies. It is for the discussion of current and
recent royalty and nobility, not Babylonian royalty, Roman nobility,
Visigoth royalty or Venetian nobility, nor some purported 14th century
English royal bastard.
Having said that, I just reviewed the most recent topics on
alt.talk.royalty which topics François seems to have no trouble
reading.
What could possibly give you that impression?
Get ready - they're gems.
Kenwood Car Stereo KDC-135 balanced Left and Right Channel has no bass
fixing cracked weld in JD loader arm
Cdns Want Crackdown On Organized Crime
Add volume to sub box using a capped pipe?
Al Qaeda in Iraq
ZZZ -- Pain Sluts and Other Extremists
Swastika in language - Ancient Sanskrit for meshed S-shapes &
socialist concepts? see Dr. Rex Curry
Salt water is flammable when bombarded with radio frequency energy and
could possibly be used as a fuel
Iran frees American from prison
Differences between Conservative and Liberals
Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: Spirit-guided exegesis of Psalm 82.
Adult college student struggles with Chem 103
If Pain Sluts and other extremists and Al Qaeda are "on topic" for a
discussion group devoted to "royalty and nobility," then surely so is
Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and his wife, Maud Fitz
Thomas. Or, is François kidding himself? I'm sure he is.
This is exactly the problem. One arrogant blowhard thinks what they
have to say is so important that it should go to groups in which it
has no business being. Every such message gives the next arrogant
blowhard implied permission to do the same. You are using the "but he
did it too" argument.
taf
-
pierre_aronax@hotmail.com
Re: François can count, but he can't read
On 29 sep, 10:41, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Indeed, you fit very well in the list.
Pierre
On Sep 28, 9:57 pm, François R. Velde <ve...@heraldicanospam.invalid
wrote:
Could you please pay attention to your settings? I count 24
postings of yours
to alt.talk.royalty since September 19, none of which are on topic.
(And I
doubt the folks in alt.history.british find them appropriate
either).
As for anyone following up, please remove alt.talk.royalty from the
"To" field
as appropriate.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site:http://www.heraldica.org/
Evidently François can count, but he can't read. According to the
posted guidelines of alt.talk.royalty on Google Groups, this is a
discussion group "devoted to royalty and nobility." My last post
regarding Sir John Botetourt is related to both of these topics. Sir
John Botetourt has been alleged in print to have been the illegitimate
son of King Edward I of England .... that is, he has been claimed to
be a royal bastard. This false allegation is finally being put to
rest with concrete evidence to prove his correct parentage. That
issue aside, Sir John Botetourt's wife, Maud Fitz Thomas, is herself a
proven descendant of King Henry II of England, and thus she is part of
the medieval English royal family. That's royal and that's noble.
The topic of my post is likewise related to alt.history.british, as
Sir John Botetourt was one of the first two admirals ever in England.
That's definitely historical and British.
Having said that, I just reviewed the most recent topics on
alt.talk.royalty which topics François seems to have no trouble
reading. Get ready - they're gems.
Kenwood Car Stereo KDC-135 balanced Left and Right Channel has no bass
fixing cracked weld in JD loader arm
Cdns Want Crackdown On Organized Crime
Add volume to sub box using a capped pipe?
Al Qaeda in Iraq
ZZZ -- Pain Sluts and Other Extremists
Swastika in language - Ancient Sanskrit for meshed S-shapes &
socialist concepts? see Dr. Rex Curry
Salt water is flammable when bombarded with radio frequency energy and
could possibly be used as a fuel
Iran frees American from prison
Differences between Conservative and Liberals
Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: Spirit-guided exegesis of Psalm 82.
Adult college student struggles with Chem 103
If Pain Sluts and other extremists and Al Qaeda are "on topic" for a
discussion group devoted to "royalty and nobility," then surely so is
Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and his wife, Maud Fitz
Thomas. Or, is François kidding himself? I'm sure he is.
Indeed, you fit very well in the list.
Pierre
-
François R. Velde
Doug can count, but he can't read (was Re: François can coun
In medio alt.talk.royalty aperuit Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> os
suum:
You can count but you can't read.
If you had read only one of these posts, you would have figured out that they
are gibberish, randomly generated by people intent on making alt.talk.royalty
inoperable.
Or is Doug kidding himself?
Your argument is that your posts belong in ATR just as much as this gibberish. I
completely agree with you: you are now killfiled, don't bother replying.
Anyone who can't live through the day without thrice-daily breathless updates on
Doug Richardson's latest scholarly triumphs knows that they can go and find them
in soc.genealogy.medieval.
Other s.g.m. posters following up on him, kindly remove alt.talk.royalty from
the newsgroups to which you post.
--
François Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
suum:
Having said that, I just reviewed the most recent topics on
alt.talk.royalty which topics François seems to have no trouble
reading. Get ready - they're gems.
Kenwood Car Stereo KDC-135 balanced Left and Right Channel has no bass
fixing cracked weld in JD loader arm
Cdns Want Crackdown On Organized Crime
Add volume to sub box using a capped pipe?
Al Qaeda in Iraq
ZZZ -- Pain Sluts and Other Extremists
Swastika in language - Ancient Sanskrit for meshed S-shapes &
socialist concepts? see Dr. Rex Curry
Salt water is flammable when bombarded with radio frequency energy and
could possibly be used as a fuel
Iran frees American from prison
Differences between Conservative and Liberals
Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: Spirit-guided exegesis of Psalm 82.
Adult college student struggles with Chem 103
You can count but you can't read.
If you had read only one of these posts, you would have figured out that they
are gibberish, randomly generated by people intent on making alt.talk.royalty
inoperable.
Or is Doug kidding himself?
If Pain Sluts and other extremists and Al Qaeda are "on topic" for a
discussion group devoted to "royalty and nobility," then surely so is
Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and his wife, Maud Fitz
Thomas.
Your argument is that your posts belong in ATR just as much as this gibberish. I
completely agree with you: you are now killfiled, don't bother replying.
Anyone who can't live through the day without thrice-daily breathless updates on
Doug Richardson's latest scholarly triumphs knows that they can go and find them
in soc.genealogy.medieval.
Other s.g.m. posters following up on him, kindly remove alt.talk.royalty from
the newsgroups to which you post.
--
François Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
News Journalism
Re: François can count, but he can't read
The Swastika building is a reminder of the swastika's genealogy in the
USA's history in Military Socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The swastika was used by socialists in the USA to support Military
Socialism and it was used as alphabetical symbolism of meshed S-
letters for "Socialism." Socialists in the USA used it for decades
before it was adopted by the militaristic National Socialist German
Workers Party. The sad story is also related to the socialist origins
of the Pledge of Allegiance.
http://rexcurry.net/pledge_military.html
One of the first and loudest critics of the Swastika Building was Dave
vonKleist, host of a Missouri-based radio-talk show, The Power Hour.
In spring 2006, he began writing military officials, including then-
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about the Navy's Coronado Seabees
Barracks, shown in this photo.
http://rexcurry.net/swastika-building-c ... es1960.jpg
Pledge of Allegiance pictures http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg
and Swastikas pictures http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg expose
shocking secrets about American history.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-
chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as
"S" symbolism for "Socialism." http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and here http://rexcurry.net/pledge-of-allegianc ... dotnet.wmv
and on google video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6479871943
and teacher tube http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.p ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government today, and the USA's growing police state. They are
reasons for massive reductions in government, taxation, spending and
socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It
was the early salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was
written by Francis Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html
Francis Bellamy was cousin and cohort of Edward Bellamy.
http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.html Edward Bellamy and Francis
Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the Nationalism movement
and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their worship of government. When the government granted their wish,
the government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism
as official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad
example three decades before the National Socialist German Workers
Party, and decades afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers' Party. http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also
did not call themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists,
just as their name indicates.
The historian Dr. Rex Curry showed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman
salute' myth came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have
been reviewed and verified on wikipedia
http://rexcurry.net/roman-salute-metrop ... f-art.html
The original pledge was anti libertarian and began with a military
salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the
second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm
down by children casually performing the forced ritual chanting. Due
to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge,
the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an
extended military salute via the USA's Pledge Of Allegiance.
Media coverage about the discoveries continues to grow
http://rexcurry.net/audio-rex-curry-podcast-radio.html
Fan mail for work exposing the Pledge's poisonous pedigree is at
http://rexcurry.net/pledge_heart.html
And listen at http://odeo.com/audio/1747108/view
The Pledge's early salute caused quite a Fuhrer/furor. The dogma
behind the Pledge was the same dogma that led to the socialist
Wholecost (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million slaughtered
under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 49 million under the
Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist
German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter of humanity ever.
People were persecuted (beatings, lynchings, etc) for refusing to
perform robotic chanting to the national flag at the same time in
government schools in the USA and Germany (to the American flag, and
to the German swastika flag).
American socialists (e.g. Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy teamed
with the Theosophical Society and Freemasons) bear some blame for
altering the notorious symbol used as overlapping S-letters for
"socialism" under the National Socialist German Workers Party.
http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
The same symbol was used by the Theosophical Society during the time
when the Bellamys, Freemasons and the Theosophical Society worked
together to promote socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html
They also originated and helped to spread the stiff arm salute via the
Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings.
As German socialism's notorious flag symbol, the swastika was
deliberately turned 45 degrees to the horizontal and always oriented
in the S-direction. Similar alphabetic symbolism is still visible as
Volkswagen logos. http://rexcurry.net/swastika-audi-logo.JPG
The bizarre acts in the USA began as early as 1875 and continued
through the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party
(German Nazis or NSGWP). American soldiers used the swastika symbol
in WWI (against Germany) and the symbol was used by the American
military during WWII. http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
The NSGWP had clear roots in National Socialism promoted by socialists
in the USA. Amazing graphic images that prove the point are at
http://rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame-bl ... ciety.html
The USA is still the worst example in the world of bizarre laws that
require robotic chanting to a national flag in government schools
(socialist schools) every day for 12 years. It has changed generations
of Americans from libertarians to authoritarians. The government
bamboozled individuals into believing that collective robotic chanting
in government schools daily is a beautiful expression of freedom.
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html
Military Salute http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg Military
Salute
USA's history in Military Socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The swastika was used by socialists in the USA to support Military
Socialism and it was used as alphabetical symbolism of meshed S-
letters for "Socialism." Socialists in the USA used it for decades
before it was adopted by the militaristic National Socialist German
Workers Party. The sad story is also related to the socialist origins
of the Pledge of Allegiance.
http://rexcurry.net/pledge_military.html
One of the first and loudest critics of the Swastika Building was Dave
vonKleist, host of a Missouri-based radio-talk show, The Power Hour.
In spring 2006, he began writing military officials, including then-
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about the Navy's Coronado Seabees
Barracks, shown in this photo.
http://rexcurry.net/swastika-building-c ... es1960.jpg
Pledge of Allegiance pictures http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg
and Swastikas pictures http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg expose
shocking secrets about American history.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-
chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as
"S" symbolism for "Socialism." http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and here http://rexcurry.net/pledge-of-allegianc ... dotnet.wmv
and on google video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6479871943
and teacher tube http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.p ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government today, and the USA's growing police state. They are
reasons for massive reductions in government, taxation, spending and
socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It
was the early salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was
written by Francis Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html
Francis Bellamy was cousin and cohort of Edward Bellamy.
http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.html Edward Bellamy and Francis
Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the Nationalism movement
and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their worship of government. When the government granted their wish,
the government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism
as official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad
example three decades before the National Socialist German Workers
Party, and decades afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers' Party. http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also
did not call themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists,
just as their name indicates.
The historian Dr. Rex Curry showed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman
salute' myth came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have
been reviewed and verified on wikipedia
http://rexcurry.net/roman-salute-metrop ... f-art.html
The original pledge was anti libertarian and began with a military
salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the
second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm
down by children casually performing the forced ritual chanting. Due
to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge,
the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an
extended military salute via the USA's Pledge Of Allegiance.
Media coverage about the discoveries continues to grow
http://rexcurry.net/audio-rex-curry-podcast-radio.html
Fan mail for work exposing the Pledge's poisonous pedigree is at
http://rexcurry.net/pledge_heart.html
And listen at http://odeo.com/audio/1747108/view
The Pledge's early salute caused quite a Fuhrer/furor. The dogma
behind the Pledge was the same dogma that led to the socialist
Wholecost (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million slaughtered
under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 49 million under the
Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist
German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter of humanity ever.
People were persecuted (beatings, lynchings, etc) for refusing to
perform robotic chanting to the national flag at the same time in
government schools in the USA and Germany (to the American flag, and
to the German swastika flag).
American socialists (e.g. Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy teamed
with the Theosophical Society and Freemasons) bear some blame for
altering the notorious symbol used as overlapping S-letters for
"socialism" under the National Socialist German Workers Party.
http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
The same symbol was used by the Theosophical Society during the time
when the Bellamys, Freemasons and the Theosophical Society worked
together to promote socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html
They also originated and helped to spread the stiff arm salute via the
Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings.
As German socialism's notorious flag symbol, the swastika was
deliberately turned 45 degrees to the horizontal and always oriented
in the S-direction. Similar alphabetic symbolism is still visible as
Volkswagen logos. http://rexcurry.net/swastika-audi-logo.JPG
The bizarre acts in the USA began as early as 1875 and continued
through the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party
(German Nazis or NSGWP). American soldiers used the swastika symbol
in WWI (against Germany) and the symbol was used by the American
military during WWII. http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
The NSGWP had clear roots in National Socialism promoted by socialists
in the USA. Amazing graphic images that prove the point are at
http://rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame-bl ... ciety.html
The USA is still the worst example in the world of bizarre laws that
require robotic chanting to a national flag in government schools
(socialist schools) every day for 12 years. It has changed generations
of Americans from libertarians to authoritarians. The government
bamboozled individuals into believing that collective robotic chanting
in government schools daily is a beautiful expression of freedom.
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html
Military Salute http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg Military
Salute
-
News Journalism
Re: François can count, but he can't read
On Sep 30, 4:47 am, News Journalism <news.journal...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also see this re swastikas and socialism in the United States from the
site that archives the work of the internationally known historian Dr.
Rex Curry
http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
The Swastika building is a reminder of the swastika's genealogy in the
USA's history in Military Socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The swastika was used by socialists in the USA to support Military
Socialism and it was used as alphabetical symbolism of meshed S-
letters for "Socialism." Socialists in the USA used it for decades
before it was adopted by the militaristic National Socialist German
Workers Party. The sad story is also related to the socialist origins
of the Pledge of Allegiance.http://rexcurry.net/pledge_military.html
One of the first and loudest critics of the Swastika Building was Dave
vonKleist, host of a Missouri-based radio-talk show, The Power Hour.
In spring 2006, he began writing military officials, including then-
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about the Navy's Coronado Seabees
Barracks, shown in this photo.http://rexcurry.net/swastika-building-c ... es1960.jpg
Pledge of Allegiance pictureshttp://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg
and Swastikas pictureshttp://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpgexpose
shocking secrets about American history.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-
chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as
"S" symbolism for "Socialism."http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and herehttp://rexcurry.net/pledge-of-alleg ... dotnet.wmv
and on google videohttp://video.google.com/videoplay? ... 6479871943
and teacher tubehttp://www.teachertube.com/view_vid ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government today, and the USA's growing police state. They are
reasons for massive reductions in government, taxation, spending and
socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It
was the early salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was
written by Francis Bellamy.http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html
Francis Bellamy was cousin and cohort of Edward Bellamy.http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.htmlEdward Bellamy and Francis
Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the Nationalism movement
and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their worship of government. When the government granted their wish,
the government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism
as official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad
example three decades before the National Socialist German Workers
Party, and decades afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers' Party.http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also
did not call themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists,
just as their name indicates.
The historian Dr.Rex Curryshowed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman
salute' myth came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have
been reviewed and verified on wikipediahttp://rexcurry.net/roman-salu ... f-art.html
The original pledge was anti libertarian and began with a military
salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the
second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm
down by children casually performing the forced ritual chanting. Due
to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge,
the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an
extended military salute via the USA's Pledge Of Allegiance.
Media coverage about the discoveries continues to growhttp://rexcurry.net/audio-rex-curry ... radio.html
Fan mail for work exposing the Pledge's poisonous pedigree is athttp://rexcurry.net/pledge_heart.html
And listen athttp://odeo.com/audio/1747108/view
The Pledge's early salute caused quite a Fuhrer/furor. The dogma
behind the Pledge was the same dogma that led to the socialist
Wholecost (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million slaughtered
under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 49 million under the
Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist
German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter of humanity ever.
People were persecuted (beatings, lynchings, etc) for refusing to
perform robotic chanting to the national flag at the same time in
government schools in the USA and Germany (to the American flag, and
to the German swastika flag).
American socialists (e.g. Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy teamed
with the Theosophical Society and Freemasons) bear some blame for
altering the notorious symbol used as overlapping S-letters for
"socialism" under the National Socialist German Workers Party.http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
The same symbol was used by the Theosophical Society during the time
when the Bellamys, Freemasons and the Theosophical Society worked
together to promote socialism.http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html
They also originated and helped to spread the stiff arm salute via the
Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings.
As German socialism's notorious flag symbol, the swastika was
deliberately turned 45 degrees to the horizontal and always oriented
in the S-direction. Similar alphabetic symbolism is still visible as
Volkswagen logos.http://rexcurry.net/swastika-audi-logo.JPG
The bizarre acts in the USA began as early as 1875 and continued
through the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party
(German Nazis or NSGWP). American soldiers used the swastika symbol
in WWI (against Germany) and the symbol was used by the American
military during WWII.http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
The NSGWP had clear roots in National Socialism promoted by socialists
in the USA. Amazing graphic images that prove the point are athttp://rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame- ... ciety.html
The USA is still the worst example in the world of bizarre laws that
require robotic chanting to a national flag in government schools
(socialist schools) every day for 12 years. It has changed generations
of Americans from libertarians to authoritarians. The government
bamboozled individuals into believing that collective robotic chanting
in government schools daily is a beautiful expression of freedom.http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html
Military Salutehttp://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpgMilitary
Salute
Also see this re swastikas and socialism in the United States from the
site that archives the work of the internationally known historian Dr.
Rex Curry
http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
-
edespalais@yahoo.fr
Re: François can count, but he can't read
On 30 sep, 15:47, News Journalism <news.journal...@gmail.com> wrote:
To be known, to be overknown you have to give this cowboy predicates
like Dr., historian, international known ...
Rex Curry would do!
On Sep 30, 4:47 am, News Journalism <news.journal...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Swastika building is a reminder of the swastika's genealogy in the
USA's history in Military Socialism.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The swastika was used by socialists in the USA to support Military
Socialism and it was used as alphabetical symbolism of meshed S-
letters for "Socialism." Socialists in the USA used it for decades
before it was adopted by the militaristic National Socialist German
Workers Party. The sad story is also related to the socialist origins
of the Pledge of Allegiance.http://rexcurry.net/pledge_military.html
One of the first and loudest critics of the Swastika Building was Dave
vonKleist, host of a Missouri-based radio-talk show, The Power Hour.
In spring 2006, he began writing military officials, including then-
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about the Navy's Coronado Seabees
Barracks, shown in this photo.http://rexcurry.net/swastika-building-c ... es1960.jpg
Pledge of Allegiance pictureshttp://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpg
and Swastikas pictureshttp://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpgexpose
shocking secrets about American history.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-
chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as
"S" symbolism for "Socialism."http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and herehttp://rexcurry.net/pledge-of-alleg ... dotnet.wmv
and on google videohttp://video.google.com/videoplay? ... 6479871943
and teacher tubehttp://www.teachertube.com/view_vid ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government today, and the USA's growing police state. They are
reasons for massive reductions in government, taxation, spending and
socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It
was the early salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was
written by Francis Bellamy.http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html
Francis Bellamy was cousin and cohort of Edward Bellamy.http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.htmlEdwardBellamy and Francis
Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the Nationalism movement
and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their worship of government. When the government granted their wish,
the government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism
as official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad
example three decades before the National Socialist German Workers
Party, and decades afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers' Party.http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also
did not call themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists,
just as their name indicates.
The historian Dr.Rex Curryshowed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman
salute' myth came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have
been reviewed and verified on wikipediahttp://rexcurry.net/roman-salu ... f-art.html
The original pledge was anti libertarian and began with a military
salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the
second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm
down by children casually performing the forced ritual chanting. Due
to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge,
the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an
extended military salute via the USA's Pledge Of Allegiance.
Media coverage about the discoveries continues to growhttp://rexcurry.net/audio-rex-curry ... radio.html
Fan mail for work exposing the Pledge's poisonous pedigree is athttp://rexcurry.net/pledge_heart.html
And listen athttp://odeo.com/audio/1747108/view
The Pledge's early salute caused quite a Fuhrer/furor. The dogma
behind the Pledge was the same dogma that led to the socialist
Wholecost (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million slaughtered
under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 49 million under the
Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist
German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter of humanity ever.
People were persecuted (beatings, lynchings, etc) for refusing to
perform robotic chanting to the national flag at the same time in
government schools in the USA and Germany (to the American flag, and
to the German swastika flag).
American socialists (e.g. Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy teamed
with the Theosophical Society and Freemasons) bear some blame for
altering the notorious symbol used as overlapping S-letters for
"socialism" under the National Socialist German Workers Party.http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
The same symbol was used by the Theosophical Society during the time
when the Bellamys, Freemasons and the Theosophical Society worked
together to promote socialism.http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html
They also originated and helped to spread the stiff arm salute via the
Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings.
As German socialism's notorious flag symbol, the swastika was
deliberately turned 45 degrees to the horizontal and always oriented
in the S-direction. Similar alphabetic symbolism is still visible as
Volkswagen logos.http://rexcurry.net/swastika-audi-logo.JPG
The bizarre acts in the USA began as early as 1875 and continued
through the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party
(German Nazis or NSGWP). American soldiers used the swastika symbol
in WWI (against Germany) and the symbol was used by the American
military during WWII.http://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry-divis ... diers.html
The NSGWP had clear roots in National Socialism promoted by socialists
in the USA. Amazing graphic images that prove the point are athttp://rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame- ... ciety.html
The USA is still the worst example in the world of bizarre laws that
require robotic chanting to a national flag in government schools
(socialist schools) every day for 12 years. It has changed generations
of Americans from libertarians to authoritarians. The government
bamboozled individuals into believing that collective robotic chanting
in government schools daily is a beautiful expression of freedom.http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html
Military Salutehttp://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%208.jpgMilitary
Salute
Also see this re swastikas and socialism in the United States from the
site that archives the work of the internationally known historian Dr.
Rex Curryhttp://rexcurry.net/45th-infantry- ... diers.html
To be known, to be overknown you have to give this cowboy predicates
like Dr., historian, international known ...
Rex Curry would do!
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: François can count, but he can't read
On Sep 30, 3:10 pm, "edespal...@yahoo.fr" <edespal...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
May I propose the establishment of the "Richardson Prize," to be
awarded periodically by SGM members to individuals who demonstrate
consistently high standards of scholarship in historical
scholarship?
My nominee as the first recipient would be Geoffrey of Monmouth
(awarded postumously, of course).
Christopher Ingham
To be known, to be overknown you have to give this cowboy predicates
like Dr., historian, international known ...
May I propose the establishment of the "Richardson Prize," to be
awarded periodically by SGM members to individuals who demonstrate
consistently high standards of scholarship in historical
scholarship?
My nominee as the first recipient would be Geoffrey of Monmouth
(awarded postumously, of course).
Christopher Ingham
-
Turenne
Re: François can count, but he can't read
On 30 Sep, 23:33, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
posting to ATR, I'd propose him as the first recipient.
Richard Lichten
wrote:
On Sep 30, 3:10 pm, "edespal...@yahoo.fr" <edespal...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
May I propose the establishment of the "Richardson Prize," to be
awarded periodically by SGM members to individuals who demonstrate
consistently high standards of scholarship in historical
scholarship?
If a condition of winning the prize was to stop Mr Richardson cross-
posting to ATR, I'd propose him as the first recipient.
Richard Lichten
-
News Journalism
Re: François can count, but he can't read
The original Pledge of Allegiance began with a military salute that
was then extended out toward the flag. It was the origin of the stiff-
arm salute adopted later by the National Socialist German Workers
Party. The initial military salute was sometimes modified because some
educrats thought it was disrespectful for children to mimic the
military. A modified version existed in 1899 (above and a later photo
below) and it began with the military salute from the chest and then
extended outward in the stiff-arm salute.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... ce1899.jpg
It is frightening to note that Adolf Hitler and German National
Socialists also adopted the gesture of the military salute from the
chest extended outward to the stiff-arm salute, as shown by the
historian Dr. Rex Curry (author of Pledge of Allegiance Secrets).
http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Also see http://rexcurry.net/military-salute-soc ... giance.jpg
Some people thought it was creepy for children to perform the initial
military salute, so that part of the ritual was sometimes dropped
entirely, leaving nothing but the American stiff-armed salute. That
modified form of the American salute was later adopted by the National
Socialist German Workers' Party (another of Dr. Curry's discoveries).
http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Francis Bellamy and his cousin Edward Bellamy called their dogma
"Military Socialism." The "swastika building" at the Navy's Coronado
Seabees Barracks in California is an odd reminder of the dogma.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The military salute is a sign of submission to a superior officer /
commanding officer (in this case the flag / government) whose orders
must be obeyed without question. http://rexcurry.net/1n1.gif
was then extended out toward the flag. It was the origin of the stiff-
arm salute adopted later by the National Socialist German Workers
Party. The initial military salute was sometimes modified because some
educrats thought it was disrespectful for children to mimic the
military. A modified version existed in 1899 (above and a later photo
below) and it began with the military salute from the chest and then
extended outward in the stiff-arm salute.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... ce1899.jpg
It is frightening to note that Adolf Hitler and German National
Socialists also adopted the gesture of the military salute from the
chest extended outward to the stiff-arm salute, as shown by the
historian Dr. Rex Curry (author of Pledge of Allegiance Secrets).
http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Also see http://rexcurry.net/military-salute-soc ... giance.jpg
Some people thought it was creepy for children to perform the initial
military salute, so that part of the ritual was sometimes dropped
entirely, leaving nothing but the American stiff-armed salute. That
modified form of the American salute was later adopted by the National
Socialist German Workers' Party (another of Dr. Curry's discoveries).
http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Francis Bellamy and his cousin Edward Bellamy called their dogma
"Military Socialism." The "swastika building" at the Navy's Coronado
Seabees Barracks in California is an odd reminder of the dogma.
http://rexcurry.net/military-socialism- ... mplex.html
The military salute is a sign of submission to a superior officer /
commanding officer (in this case the flag / government) whose orders
must be obeyed without question. http://rexcurry.net/1n1.gif
-
News Journalism
Re: François can count, but he can't read
When Francis Bellamy (author of the Pledge) wrote "liberty and justice
for
all" he meant the "liberty" to have government schools impose prayer
and
Bible reading and worship (which they did), and the "justice" of
Christian
Socialism that Bellamy touted in his dogma. Francis was a leader in
the
Society of Christian Socialists and that is what government schools
did as
he advocated the government takeover of all schools.
Everyone should see this Pledge of Allegiance picture
http://rexcurry.net/pledge-allegiance-p ... giance.jpg
and Swastikas pictures
http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
that expose shocking secrets about American history.
When Bellamy said later that his Pledge "....began as an intensive
communing
with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of
Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the
meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people..." he
meant
that his Christian Socialism dogma was one of the "salient points of
our
national history" and "the aspirations of the people."
The Pledge was first published in the Youth's Companion Magazine in
1892.
Until the Magazine ceased to exist in 1929, it promoted the Pledge of
Allegiance. The Youth's Companion (1827-1929) was a popular American
children's magazine. Nathaniel Wills and Asa Rand were its first
publishers.
They stated that it was created to encourage "virtue and piety, and...
warn
against the ways of transgression." Its sales peak in the 1893's, and
it
began to target adults as well as children. Its early issues were
centered
around religion. When its circulation increased one-hundredfold in
the
1890s, it added more entertainment. It had a children's section,
which
included short poems and puzzles, and a medical column for older
readers.
The Youth's Companion did not mention drugs or alcohol. The Companion
was
published for over one hundred years until it finally merged with
American
Boy in 1929.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, mechanical group-
chanting
to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as "S"
symbolism
for "Socialism." http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A
new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and teacher tube
http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.p ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government
today, and the USA's growing police state. They are reasons for
massive
reductions in government, taxation, spending and socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was
created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It was the
early
salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was written by Francis
Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html Francis Bellamy was
cousin
and cohort of Edward Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.html
Edward
Bellamy and Francis Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the
Nationalism movement and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their
worship of government. When the government granted their wish, the
government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism as
official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad example
three
decades before the National Socialist German Workers Party, and
decades
afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three
decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers'
Party. http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National
Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves
Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also did not call
themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists, just as their
name
indicates.
The historian Dr. Rex Curry showed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did
not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman salute'
myth
came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have been reviewed
and
verified on wikipedia
http://rexcurry.net/roman-salute-metrop ... f-art.html
for
all" he meant the "liberty" to have government schools impose prayer
and
Bible reading and worship (which they did), and the "justice" of
Christian
Socialism that Bellamy touted in his dogma. Francis was a leader in
the
Society of Christian Socialists and that is what government schools
did as
he advocated the government takeover of all schools.
Everyone should see this Pledge of Allegiance picture
http://rexcurry.net/pledge-allegiance-p ... giance.jpg
and Swastikas pictures
http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg
that expose shocking secrets about American history.
When Bellamy said later that his Pledge "....began as an intensive
communing
with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of
Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the
meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people..." he
meant
that his Christian Socialism dogma was one of the "salient points of
our
national history" and "the aspirations of the people."
The Pledge was first published in the Youth's Companion Magazine in
1892.
Until the Magazine ceased to exist in 1929, it promoted the Pledge of
Allegiance. The Youth's Companion (1827-1929) was a popular American
children's magazine. Nathaniel Wills and Asa Rand were its first
publishers.
They stated that it was created to encourage "virtue and piety, and...
warn
against the ways of transgression." Its sales peak in the 1893's, and
it
began to target adults as well as children. Its early issues were
centered
around religion. When its circulation increased one-hundredfold in
the
1890s, it added more entertainment. It had a children's section,
which
included short poems and puzzles, and a medical column for older
readers.
The Youth's Companion did not mention drugs or alcohol. The Companion
was
published for over one hundred years until it finally merged with
American
Boy in 1929.
Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, mechanical group-
chanting
to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as "S"
symbolism
for "Socialism." http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html
Much of that history is the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. A
new
documentary video movie exposes the shocking facts on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BssWWZ3XEe4
and teacher tube
http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.p ... 81f09499f2
Those historical facts explain the enormous size and scope of
government
today, and the USA's growing police state. They are reasons for
massive
reductions in government, taxation, spending and socialism.
The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as
it was
created and popularized by national socialists in the USA. It was the
early
salute of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge was written by Francis
Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgetragedy.html Francis Bellamy was
cousin
and cohort of Edward Bellamy. http://rexcurry.net/pledgebackward.html
Edward
Bellamy and Francis Bellamy were self-proclaimed socialists in the
Nationalism movement and they promoted military socialism.
They wanted the government to take over education and use it to spread
their
worship of government. When the government granted their wish, the
government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught racism as
official policy. The official racism and segregation was a bad example
three
decades before the National Socialist German Workers Party, and
decades
afterward.
The Pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three
decades
before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German
Workers'
Party. http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-karl-marx.html
Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National
Socialist
German Workers' Party." Members of the horrid group did not call
themselves
Nazis. In that sense, there was no Nazi Party. They also did not call
themselves Fascists. They called themselves socialists, just as their
name
indicates.
The historian Dr. Rex Curry showed that the early Pledge Of Allegiance
did
not use an ancient Roman salute, and that the 'ancient Roman salute'
myth
came from the Pledge Of Allegiance. The discoveries have been reviewed
and
verified on wikipedia
http://rexcurry.net/roman-salute-metrop ... f-art.html
-
edespalais@yahoo.fr
Re: François can count, but he can't read
What has to be counted Mr Carter's peanuts?