Peter or Piers?

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Peter G R Howarth

Peter or Piers?

Legg inn av Peter G R Howarth » 21 sep 2007 10:16:34

When I worked in a bilingual community in this country, my name was
pronounced Peeter by anyone speaking English and Payter by anyone speaking
German, even if the same person spoke to me. Similarly, in the South
Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol, my name is always Pietro to Italian speakers and
'Payter' to German speakers. As far as I am concerned, all three of these
names are 'correct'. However, when writing my official name, for example in
a genealogy, I use the version on my birth certificate. In the same way, my
daughter is always called Katie within the family, and to everyone else she
is Cat. However, when writing her official name she uses Catherine. It
seems to me that this is standard practice. Different names, all of them
‘correct’, can be appropriate in different circumstances.

In the Middle Ages, the second husband of Margaret of Lancaster, daughter of
Henry of Grosmont, became successively (i) Wilhelm, Herzog von
Bayern-Straubing, (ii) Willem, graaf van Holland, Zeeland en Friesland,
(iii) Guillaume, comte de Hainault, and (iv) William, Earl of Leicester. It
is not surprising that he went mad by the age of 24! In amongst this
multiplicity of spoken languages, there was the single, universal language
for written records, Latin. Douglas Richardson has drawn attention to the
use of seals to establish someone's 'correct' name. Since all mediaeval
seals used Latin for their owners' official names and titles, it would seem
that Latin is therefore the most appropriate language for them in
genealogies.

The problem is that nowadays comparatively few people would recognise names
or titles in Latin. We are therefore reduced to using a less appropriate
language, possibly English as a modern lingua franca, or perhaps some
language that we think the individual might have spoken, or even a version
we intuit as being the latest fashion, even though we accept that none of
them was in fact the 'official' version.

German, Dutch, Italian and French genealogists seem to have no problem using
their own language for foreign names and titles. I too use the traditional
English versions that I was brought up on, but I would not dream of telling
others, who choose a different alternative to Latin, that they are wrong, or
even try to influence what they do, provided I can understand which person
they mean.

Petrus/Piers/Peter G R Howarth

Tim

Re: Peter or Piers?

Legg inn av Tim » 21 sep 2007 20:52:32

On Sep 21, 5:16 am, "Peter G R Howarth" <pgrhowa...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
When I worked in a bilingual community in this country, my name was
pronounced Peeter by anyone speaking English and Payter by anyone speaking
German, even if the same person spoke to me. Similarly, in the South
Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol, my name is always Pietro to Italian speakers and
'Payter' to German speakers. As far as I am concerned, all three of these
names are 'correct'. However, when writing my official name, for example in
a genealogy, I use the version on my birth certificate. In the same way, my
daughter is always called Katie within the family, and to everyone else she
is Cat. However, when writing her official name she uses Catherine. It
seems to me that this is standard practice. Different names, all of them
'correct', can be appropriate in different circumstances.

In the Middle Ages, the second husband of Margaret of Lancaster, daughter of
Henry of Grosmont, became successively (i) Wilhelm, Herzog von
Bayern-Straubing, (ii) Willem, graaf van Holland, Zeeland en Friesland,
(iii) Guillaume, comte de Hainault, and (iv) William, Earl of Leicester. It
is not surprising that he went mad by the age of 24! In amongst this
multiplicity of spoken languages, there was the single, universal language
for written records, Latin. Douglas Richardson has drawn attention to the
use of seals to establish someone's 'correct' name. Since all mediaeval
seals used Latin for their owners' official names and titles, it would seem
that Latin is therefore the most appropriate language for them in
genealogies.

The problem is that nowadays comparatively few people would recognise names
or titles in Latin. We are therefore reduced to using a less appropriate
language, possibly English as a modern lingua franca, or perhaps some
language that we think the individual might have spoken, or even a version
we intuit as being the latest fashion, even though we accept that none of
them was in fact the 'official' version.

German, Dutch, Italian and French genealogists seem to have no problem using
their own language for foreign names and titles. I too use the traditional
English versions that I was brought up on, but I would not dream of telling
others, who choose a different alternative to Latin, that they are wrong, or
even try to influence what they do, provided I can understand which person
they mean.

Petrus/Piers/Peter G R Howarth

Now that the Ukraine is an independent nation we will have to accustom
ourselves to using the Ukrainian name forms for Ukrainian history
rather than the traditional, more familiar Russian forms. Some
examples are Volodymyr for Vladimir, Olyh for Oleg, Ihor for Igor,
etc. In the U.S.A., where there's been a recent influx of Russian and
Ukrainian immigrants, both forms will exist simultaneously. Charles
and Carl have existed simultaneously for many years and many people
are unaware that they are actually forms of the same name. I think in
the past it was traditional for immigrants to adopt the anglicized
version of their names but in recent years many immigrants are
choosing to retain the name they were given at birth. For example,
immigrants from Eastern Europe now seem to be retaining "Pyotr"
instead of anglicizing it to "Peter". It all seems to be part of
cultural diversity.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Or Piers?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 sep 2007 22:12:17

Now that the Ukraine is an independent nation we will have to accustom
ourselves to using the Ukrainian name forms for Ukrainian history
rather than the traditional, more familiar Russian forms. Some
examples are Volodymyr for Vladimir, Olyh for Oleg, Ihor for Igor,
etc. In the U.S.A., where there's been a recent influx of Russian and
Ukrainian immigrants, both forms will exist simultaneously. Charles
and Carl have existed simultaneously for many years and many people
are unaware that they are actually forms of the same name. I think in
the past it was traditional for immigrants to adopt the anglicized
version of their names but in recent years many immigrants are
choosing to retain the name they were given at birth. For example,
immigrants from Eastern Europe now seem to be retaining "Pyotr"
instead of anglicizing it to "Peter". It all seems to be part of
cultural diversity.

"Tim" <A.Windemere@gmail.com>
---------------------------------------------------------

Indeed...

And Balkanization of the Culture.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Tim" <A.Windemere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190404352.001624.273810@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 21, 5:16 am, "Peter G R Howarth" <pgrhowa...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:

When I worked in a bilingual community in this country, my name was
pronounced Peeter by anyone speaking English and Payter by anyone speaking
German, even if the same person spoke to me. Similarly, in the South
Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol, my name is always Pietro to Italian speakers
and
'Payter' to German speakers. As far as I am concerned, all three of these
names are 'correct'. However, when writing my official name, for example
in
a genealogy, I use the version on my birth certificate. In the same way,
my
daughter is always called Katie within the family, and to everyone else
she
is Cat. However, when writing her official name she uses Catherine. It
seems to me that this is standard practice. Different names, all of them
'correct', can be appropriate in different circumstances.

In the Middle Ages, the second husband of Margaret of Lancaster, daughter
of
Henry of Grosmont, became successively (i) Wilhelm, Herzog von
Bayern-Straubing, (ii) Willem, graaf van Holland, Zeeland en Friesland,
(iii) Guillaume, comte de Hainault, and (iv) William, Earl of Leicester.
It
is not surprising that he went mad by the age of 24! In amongst this
multiplicity of spoken languages, there was the single, universal language
for written records, Latin. Douglas Richardson has drawn attention to the
use of seals to establish someone's 'correct' name. Since all mediaeval
seals used Latin for their owners' official names and titles, it would
seem
that Latin is therefore the most appropriate language for them in
genealogies.

The problem is that nowadays comparatively few people would recognise
names
or titles in Latin. We are therefore reduced to using a less appropriate
language, possibly English as a modern lingua franca, or perhaps some
language that we think the individual might have spoken, or even a version
we intuit as being the latest fashion, even though we accept that none of
them was in fact the 'official' version.

German, Dutch, Italian and French genealogists seem to have no problem
using
their own language for foreign names and titles. I too use the
traditional
English versions that I was brought up on, but I would not dream of
telling
others, who choose a different alternative to Latin, that they are wrong,
or
even try to influence what they do, provided I can understand which person
they mean.

Petrus/Piers/Peter G R Howarth

Now that the Ukraine is an independent nation we will have to accustom
ourselves to using the Ukrainian name forms for Ukrainian history
rather than the traditional, more familiar Russian forms. Some
examples are Volodymyr for Vladimir, Olyh for Oleg, Ihor for Igor,
etc. In the U.S.A., where there's been a recent influx of Russian and
Ukrainian immigrants, both forms will exist simultaneously. Charles
and Carl have existed simultaneously for many years and many people
are unaware that they are actually forms of the same name. I think in
the past it was traditional for immigrants to adopt the anglicized
version of their names but in recent years many immigrants are
choosing to retain the name they were given at birth. For example,
immigrants from Eastern Europe now seem to be retaining "Pyotr"
instead of anglicizing it to "Peter". It all seems to be part of
cultural diversity.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Peter Or Piers?

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 22 sep 2007 00:18:03

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:EtWIi.246$H_5.1476@eagle.america.net...
Now that the Ukraine is an independent nation we will have to accustom
ourselves to using the Ukrainian name forms for Ukrainian history
rather than the traditional, more familiar Russian forms. Some
examples are Volodymyr for Vladimir, Olyh for Oleg, Ihor for Igor,
etc. In the U.S.A., where there's been a recent influx of Russian and
Ukrainian immigrants, both forms will exist simultaneously. Charles
and Carl have existed simultaneously for many years and many people
are unaware that they are actually forms of the same name. I think in
the past it was traditional for immigrants to adopt the anglicized
version of their names but in recent years many immigrants are
choosing to retain the name they were given at birth. For example,
immigrants from Eastern Europe now seem to be retaining "Pyotr"
instead of anglicizing it to "Peter". It all seems to be part of
cultural diversity.


in america you can call yourself what you want and spell your name anyway
you want.
but if you have an unusual spelling then you had best be prepared to spend
a lot of time correcting how people pronounce it.

what ever happened to the old axiom, "when in rome, do as the romans do"

all america has ever asked of any immigrant is to become an american.
nowadays people come here and they want to keep acting like they are still
in the old country.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Or Piers?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 sep 2007 00:52:47

Those are indeed Weighty Problems.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:_bidne-lkJ-wzGnbnZ2dnUVZ_tmhnZ2d@rcn.net...

in america you can call yourself what you want and spell your name
anyway you want. but if you have an unusual spelling then you had
best be prepared to spend a lot of time correcting how people
pronounce it.

what ever happened to the old axiom, "when in rome, do as the romans
do"

all america has ever asked of any immigrant is to become an
american. nowadays people come here and they want to keep acting
like they are still in the old country.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Or Piers?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 00:52:07

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