A mess of Trussells

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A mess of Trussells

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 sep 2007 16:28:34

I made the mistake of looking into the Trussell family this weekend.
What a mess!

The ODNB entry for William Trussell states that there were at least
three contemporary men of this name in the time of Edward III, and
even its account does not unravel them all.

I shall make a start with unravelling.

According to entries in the Chester Plea Rolls, Sir William Trussell
of Cubblesdon was involved in two suits in 1368 (entries for 42 Edward
III, #71 et seq). From these, an initial stemma may be drawn up:

1. William Trussell of Acton, married Maud, daughter of Warin
Mainwaring. Issue:

2a. John Trussell, of Cubblesdon, living 11 Edward III; issue:

3a. Sir William Trussell, of Cubblesdon, claimant in 1368

3b. John Trussell

3c. Fulk Trussell

3d. Warin Trussell

2b. Sir William Trussell, held the manor of Blaken [it was he who
founded Shottesbrooke
church]; issue:

3a. John Trussell, dead by 1368; no issue; married Katherine,
who married secondly
Thomas del Hogh

3b. Margaret Trussell, married Fulk Pembridge; her IPM 2 Henry
IV shows she died
without issue, leaving the following as her heir:

[2c. Sir Warin Trussell; issue:

[3. Laurence Trussell; issue:

[4. William Trussell, born circa 1387; heir in 1400]


What is not immediately clear to me is where Margaret Trussell, wife
of Sir Alured de Solney, fits in. She is said (see posts in the
archives) to have been the daughter (and heir) of Sir John Trussell of
Cubbleston by his wife Eleanor. She was the heir of Elizabeth
Freville nee Trussell, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell. It
would seem that she was the daughter of John, marked as (2a) above,
but I have yet to locate primary evidence confirming this.

MA-R

alden@mindspring.com

Re: A mess of Trussells

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 15 sep 2007 23:53:31

On Sep 15, 11:28 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
I made the mistake of looking into the Trussell family this weekend.
What a mess!

The ODNB entry for William Trussell states that there were at least
three contemporary men of this name in the time of Edward III, and
even its account does not unravel them all.

I shall make a start with unravelling.

According to entries in the Chester Plea Rolls, Sir William Trussell
of Cubblesdon was involved in two suits in 1368 (entries for 42 Edward
III, #71 et seq). From these, an initial stemma may be drawn up:

1. William Trussell of Acton, married Maud, daughter of Warin
Mainwaring. Issue:

2a. John Trussell, of Cubblesdon, living 11 Edward III; issue:

3a. Sir William Trussell, of Cubblesdon, claimant in 1368

3b. John Trussell

3c. Fulk Trussell

3d. Warin Trussell

2b. Sir William Trussell, held the manor of Blaken [it was he who
founded Shottesbrooke
church]; issue:

3a. John Trussell, dead by 1368; no issue; married Katherine,
who married secondly
Thomas del Hogh

3b. Margaret Trussell, married Fulk Pembridge; her IPM 2 Henry
IV shows she died
without issue, leaving the following as her heir:

[2c. Sir Warin Trussell; issue:

[3. Laurence Trussell; issue:

[4. William Trussell, born circa 1387; heir in 1400]

What is not immediately clear to me is where Margaret Trussell, wife
of Sir Alured de Solney, fits in. She is said (see posts in the
archives) to have been the daughter (and heir) of Sir John Trussell of
Cubbleston by his wife Eleanor. She was the heir of Elizabeth
Freville nee Trussell, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell. It
would seem that she was the daughter of John, marked as (2a) above,
but I have yet to locate primary evidence confirming this.

MA-R



See : Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The
Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July
2004, pps 211-231.

I think she is thought to be daughter of Sir John and niece of the
William who married Maud Mainwaring.

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: A mess of Trussells

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 sep 2007 08:09:55

On 15 Sep., 23:53, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:28 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:





I made the mistake of looking into the Trussell family this weekend.
What a mess!

The ODNB entry for William Trussell states that there were at least
three contemporary men of this name in the time of Edward III, and
even its account does not unravel them all.

I shall make a start with unravelling.

According to entries in the Chester Plea Rolls, Sir William Trussell
of Cubblesdon was involved in two suits in 1368 (entries for 42 Edward
III, #71 et seq). From these, an initial stemma may be drawn up:

1. William Trussell of Acton, married Maud, daughter of Warin
Mainwaring. Issue:

2a. John Trussell, of Cubblesdon, living 11 Edward III; issue:

3a. Sir William Trussell, of Cubblesdon, claimant in 1368

3b. John Trussell

3c. Fulk Trussell

3d. Warin Trussell

2b. Sir William Trussell, held the manor of Blaken [it was he who
founded Shottesbrooke
church]; issue:

3a. John Trussell, dead by 1368; no issue; married Katherine,
who married secondly
Thomas del Hogh

3b. Margaret Trussell, married Fulk Pembridge; her IPM 2 Henry
IV shows she died
without issue, leaving the following as her heir:

[2c. Sir Warin Trussell; issue:

[3. Laurence Trussell; issue:

[4. William Trussell, born circa 1387; heir in 1400]

What is not immediately clear to me is where Margaret Trussell, wife
of Sir Alured de Solney, fits in. She is said (see posts in the
archives) to have been the daughter (and heir) of Sir John Trussell of
Cubbleston by his wife Eleanor. She was the heir of Elizabeth
Freville nee Trussell, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell. It
would seem that she was the daughter of John, marked as (2a) above,
but I have yet to locate primary evidence confirming this.

MA-R

See : Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The
Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July
2004, pps 211-231.

I think she is thought to be daughter of Sir John and niece of the
William who married Maud Mainwaring.

Doug Smith

Thanks, Doug.

I had spotted that in the archives. However, I am not persuaded that
this is right.

Her father John is said to have been succeeded at Cublesdon
(apparently under a male-line entail) by his brother William (Every of
Eggington papers, Derbyshire RO, D5236/9/6). However, this source
also states that Margaret Sulney nee Trussell was her uncle William's
eventual heir. It is explained that this happened on the death
without issue of Elizabeth, wife of Baldwin Freville. Elizabeth was
the daughter and heir of Katherine Trussell (who married her cousin
Sir Amery Trussell), who was in turn daughter and heir of William
Trussell, said to be the brother of Margaret's father John.

If John's brother William is the William who married Maud Mainwaring,
then his issue did not become extinct on the death of Elizabeth
Freville, and thus Margaret Sulney, if she came from a collateral
branch, cannot have been his heir.

It seems to me that the account of the family in the 1580 Visitation
of Cheshire is largely consistent with the primary records I have seen
so far. This states that William of Cublesdon, the plaintiff in 1368
and grandfather of Elizabeth Freville, was the eldest son of Sir John
Trussell, himself eldest son of the William who married Maud
Mainwaring. This is agreeable with some of the other material about
William - e.g. the Chester Plea Roll reference (33 Edward III #67)
which refers to him as "William, son and heir of Sir John Trussell of
Cublesdon", having letters of protection for travelling to foreign
parts in the retinue of the Prince of Wales; this is dated 27 October
1359. His is also thus styled in the Patent Rolls of 7 July 1347
(allegation of involvement in rape and murder).

I therefore wonder whether Margaret Sulney was the sister of this
William, son of Sir John Trussell, whose three younger brothers (John,
Fulk and Warin) appear to have died without issue.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: A mess of Trussells

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 sep 2007 11:18:23

On 15 Sep., 23:53, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:28 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:





I made the mistake of looking into the Trussell family this weekend.
What a mess!

The ODNB entry for William Trussell states that there were at least
three contemporary men of this name in the time of Edward III, and
even its account does not unravel them all.

I shall make a start with unravelling.

According to entries in the Chester Plea Rolls, Sir William Trussell
of Cubblesdon was involved in two suits in 1368 (entries for 42 Edward
III, #71 et seq). From these, an initial stemma may be drawn up:

1. William Trussell of Acton, married Maud, daughter of Warin
Mainwaring. Issue:

2a. John Trussell, of Cubblesdon, living 11 Edward III; issue:

3a. Sir William Trussell, of Cubblesdon, claimant in 1368

3b. John Trussell

3c. Fulk Trussell

3d. Warin Trussell

2b. Sir William Trussell, held the manor of Blaken [it was he who
founded Shottesbrooke
church]; issue:

3a. John Trussell, dead by 1368; no issue; married Katherine,
who married secondly
Thomas del Hogh

3b. Margaret Trussell, married Fulk Pembridge; her IPM 2 Henry
IV shows she died
without issue, leaving the following as her heir:

[2c. Sir Warin Trussell; issue:

[3. Laurence Trussell; issue:

[4. William Trussell, born circa 1387; heir in 1400]

What is not immediately clear to me is where Margaret Trussell, wife
of Sir Alured de Solney, fits in. She is said (see posts in the
archives) to have been the daughter (and heir) of Sir John Trussell of
Cubbleston by his wife Eleanor. She was the heir of Elizabeth
Freville nee Trussell, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell. It
would seem that she was the daughter of John, marked as (2a) above,
but I have yet to locate primary evidence confirming this.

MA-R

See : Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The
Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July
2004, pps 211-231.

I think she is thought to be daughter of Sir John and niece of the
William who married Maud Mainwaring.


Further muddying the waters are the two statements:

1. That Margaret Pembridge, daughter of William Trussell, was the
"cousin and heir" of William Trussell of Cublesdon, knight [IPM 2
November 2 Henry IV as quoted in the Chester Plea Rolls.

2. That Margaret Sulney, daughter of Sir John Trussell, was the heir
of Elizabeth Freville, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell
(brother of John).

I wonder whether the answer is to be found in the loss of lands
suffered by William Trussell, son of Sir John Trussell of Cubblesdon,
in 21 Edward III, as a result of his felony-conviction for rape and
murder (PRO E 199/38/24)? Perhaps Cublesdon, at least, was acquired
after this loss by his uncle, William Trussell, the father of Margaret
Pembridge. This would explain how this William is described as "of
Cublesdon", for instance in 29-31 Edward III, when he rendered his
accounts as Constable of Odiham (E 101/27/3); it was probably the
elder William who was decribed as "of Cubblesdon" in January 1348/9,
when he exchanged lands apparently acquired from his stepfather Oliver
(second husband of Maud Mainwaring) for the manor of Eton Hastings (E
40/153).

Thus, following his death on 20 June 37 Edward III, his daughter
Margaret Pembridge could be said to be the heir (ie successor?) of her
cousin William, son of John.

This heirship might also be explained by the fact that John of
Cubblesdon seems to have married twice, as referred to in the Cheshire
Visitation. If his son William, the felon of 1347, was by the first
marriage, and the other three sons named in the Cheshire Plea Roll
entry of 42 Edward III were by the second marriage, then a cousin of
the whole blood (Margaret Pembridge) would inherit to the exclusion of
the half-siblings by the second marriage.

In this scenario, however, we are left with the apparent problem that
Margaret Sulney, possibly a sister of William the felon, was said to
be heir of the latter's granddaughter Elizabeth Freville - a
contradiction to the statement that Margaret Pembridge was his heir.

MA-R

alden@mindspring.com

Re: A mess of Trussells

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 16 sep 2007 16:29:54

On Sep 16, 6:18 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 15 Sep., 23:53, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com
wrote:



On Sep 15, 11:28 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

I made the mistake of looking into the Trussell family this weekend.
What a mess!

The ODNB entry for William Trussell states that there were at least
three contemporary men of this name in the time of Edward III, and
even its account does not unravel them all.

I shall make a start with unravelling.

According to entries in the Chester Plea Rolls, Sir William Trussell
of Cubblesdon was involved in two suits in 1368 (entries for 42 Edward
III, #71 et seq). From these, an initial stemma may be drawn up:

1. William Trussell of Acton, married Maud, daughter of Warin
Mainwaring. Issue:

2a. John Trussell, of Cubblesdon, living 11 Edward III; issue:

3a. Sir William Trussell, of Cubblesdon, claimant in 1368

3b. John Trussell

3c. Fulk Trussell

3d. Warin Trussell

2b. Sir William Trussell, held the manor of Blaken [it was he who
founded Shottesbrooke
church]; issue:

3a. John Trussell, dead by 1368; no issue; married Katherine,
who married secondly
Thomas del Hogh

3b. Margaret Trussell, married Fulk Pembridge; her IPM 2 Henry
IV shows she died
without issue, leaving the following as her heir:

[2c. Sir Warin Trussell; issue:

[3. Laurence Trussell; issue:

[4. William Trussell, born circa 1387; heir in 1400]

What is not immediately clear to me is where Margaret Trussell, wife
of Sir Alured de Solney, fits in. She is said (see posts in the
archives) to have been the daughter (and heir) of Sir John Trussell of
Cubbleston by his wife Eleanor. She was the heir of Elizabeth
Freville nee Trussell, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell. It
would seem that she was the daughter of John, marked as (2a) above,
but I have yet to locate primary evidence confirming this.

MA-R

See : Rosie Bevan, A Study of A Medieval Knightly Family: The
Longfords of Derbyshire, Part 1, Foundations, Vol. 1, Number 4, July
2004, pps 211-231.

I think she is thought to be daughter of Sir John and niece of the
William who married Maud Mainwaring.

Further muddying the waters are the two statements:

1. That Margaret Pembridge, daughter of William Trussell, was the
"cousin and heir" of William Trussell of Cublesdon, knight [IPM 2
November 2 Henry IV as quoted in the Chester Plea Rolls.

2. That Margaret Sulney, daughter of Sir John Trussell, was the heir
of Elizabeth Freville, granddaughter and heir of William Trussell
(brother of John).

I wonder whether the answer is to be found in the loss of lands
suffered by William Trussell, son of Sir John Trussell of Cubblesdon,
in 21 Edward III, as a result of his felony-conviction for rape and
murder (PRO E 199/38/24)? Perhaps Cublesdon, at least, was acquired
after this loss by his uncle, William Trussell, the father of Margaret
Pembridge. This would explain how this William is described as "of
Cublesdon", for instance in 29-31 Edward III, when he rendered his
accounts as Constable of Odiham (E 101/27/3); it was probably the
elder William who was decribed as "of Cubblesdon" in January 1348/9,
when he exchanged lands apparently acquired from his stepfather Oliver
(second husband of Maud Mainwaring) for the manor of Eton Hastings (E
40/153).

Thus, following his death on 20 June 37 Edward III, his daughter
Margaret Pembridge could be said to be the heir (ie successor?) of her
cousin William, son of John.

This heirship might also be explained by the fact that John of
Cubblesdon seems to have married twice, as referred to in the Cheshire
Visitation. If his son William, the felon of 1347, was by the first
marriage, and the other three sons named in the Cheshire Plea Roll
entry of 42 Edward III were by the second marriage, then a cousin of
the whole blood (Margaret Pembridge) would inherit to the exclusion of
the half-siblings by the second marriage.

In this scenario, however, we are left with the apparent problem that
Margaret Sulney, possibly a sister of William the felon, was said to
be heir of the latter's granddaughter Elizabeth Freville - a
contradiction to the statement that Margaret Pembridge was his heir.

MA-R

Michael,

You are right there are a number of conflicts here, and with the
Visitation of Cheshire, (1580).

One problem is the Visitation says a Sir John m. (1st) nn Butler of
Wem and (2nd) nn (Strange or Savage). As I understand it, it was a
Sir William who married 2nd Ida le Boteler of Wem. Their son Sir
William is shown as m. nn dau. of Hugh Venables of Kinderton and
having the dau. Katherine who m. Sir Aimery Trussell. This second Sir
William's half-sister is shown as the Margaret who m. Fulk Pembrugge.

If one of the Trussels lost lands through a conviction and the lands
were awarded to a relative, then you are right that creates more of a
muddle.

I am not sure how to resolve these conflicts at the moment.

Doug Smith

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