Sinclairs in England before conquest

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zichmni

Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 15 sep 2007 12:22:47

I found this on the Internet. I wonder, can it be truth?

"Sinclairs were England long before the Norman conquest. King Offa (AD
757-796) was the king of Mercia, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. He was one of
the most powerful Anglo-Saxon kings and controlled the territory south
of the River Humber, taking in most of England. Recently, Niven has by
hard work, has identified Sinclair names from the Doomsday Book. Many
of names identified are pre conquest names.

Philippe Sinclair who died 844 was the first one who we can clearly
identify. He was in the Earl of Tarleton. The Barons of Sinclair.
Were Tudur 1 and 2, Raymond, Trilla, Quinna. The original Holy Light
(Saint Clair) title Holders were men who protected the Merovingian
kings of France. Charlemagne sent to his friend and correspondent,
Offa, king of Mercia. Sinclairs around 780. Interestingly enough the
spelling was then Sinclair. This is the list of people bearing the
title Sinclair in pre conquest Mercia in the Earldom of Tarleton and
Barony of Sinclair are . Sinclair, Adelphia; Sinclair, Albert;
Sinclair, Bonner; Sinclair, Bonner (1); Sinclair, Dauphine; Sinclair,
Duvessa Alpina; Sinclair, Lauretta; Sinclair, Neva; Sinclair, Paulin;
Sinclair, Paulina; Sinclair, Peter; Sinclair, Philippe; Sinclair,
Quinna; Sinclair, Raymond; Sinclair, Trilla; Sinclair, Tudur;
Sinclair, Tudur (1). The multiple names designated by (1) are repeated
names in different generations."

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 15 sep 2007 14:10:31

Dear 'zichmni',

The possibility exists that a St. Clair or two had contacts
across the channel before 1066 (see the careers of Count Eustace of
Boulogne, and William Malet of Graville). However, the account given
below appears to derive from wishful thinking, or worse, as opposed to
documentation.

At the same time, use large amounts of sodium chloride when
reading the words of Dan Brown or others having to do with the early
(Merovingian or before) origins of the St. Clair or Sinclair family.

Cheers,

John



On Sep 15, 7:22 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
I found this on the Internet. I wonder, can it be truth?

"Sinclairs were England long before the Norman conquest. King Offa (AD
757-796) was the king of Mercia, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. He was one of
the most powerful Anglo-Saxon kings and controlled the territory south
of the River Humber, taking in most of England. Recently, Niven has by
hard work, has identified Sinclair names from the Doomsday Book. Many
of names identified are pre conquest names.

Philippe Sinclair who died 844 was the first one who we can clearly
identify. He was in the Earl of Tarleton. The Barons of Sinclair.
Were Tudur 1 and 2, Raymond, Trilla, Quinna. The original Holy Light
(Saint Clair) title Holders were men who protected the Merovingian
kings of France. Charlemagne sent to his friend and correspondent,
Offa, king of Mercia. Sinclairs around 780. Interestingly enough the
spelling was then Sinclair. This is the list of people bearing the
title Sinclair in pre conquest Mercia in the Earldom of Tarleton and
Barony of Sinclair are . Sinclair, Adelphia; Sinclair, Albert;
Sinclair, Bonner; Sinclair, Bonner (1); Sinclair, Dauphine; Sinclair,
Duvessa Alpina; Sinclair, Lauretta; Sinclair, Neva; Sinclair, Paulin;
Sinclair, Paulina; Sinclair, Peter; Sinclair, Philippe; Sinclair,
Quinna; Sinclair, Raymond; Sinclair, Trilla; Sinclair, Tudur;
Sinclair, Tudur (1). The multiple names designated by (1) are repeated
names in different generations."

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 15 sep 2007 15:55:08

On Sep 15, 4:22 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
I found this on the Internet. I wonder, can it be truth?

Hardly a word of it.

"Sinclairs were England long before the Norman conquest.

I don't know of any Sinclairs in England prior to the Norman Conquest.

King Offa (AD
757-796) was the king of Mercia, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. He was one of
the most powerful Anglo-Saxon kings and controlled the territory south
of the River Humber, taking in most of England.


More or less true, but irrelevant.

Recently, Niven has by
hard work, has identified Sinclair names from the Doomsday Book. Many
of names identified are pre conquest names.

Philippe Sinclair who died 844 was the first one who we can clearly
identify. He was in the Earl of Tarleton.

Entirely invented. There was no such title as Earl of Tarleton - for
that matter, there was no such title as Earl of anywhere prior to the
time of Canute, when the Scandinavian Jarl was sometimes used for
Ealdorman, giving rise to Earl. I don't know that Tarleton was a title
until after the American Revolution, so this is off by about 900
years.

The Barons of Sinclair.
Were Tudur 1 and 2, Raymond, Trilla, Quinna.

All invented.

The original Holy Light
(Saint Clair) title Holders were men who protected the Merovingian
kings of France.

This is fantasy - it was not a title, it was a place, and there is no
record of anyone protecting the Merovingian kings.

Charlemagne sent to his friend and correspondent,
Offa, king of Mercia. Sinclairs around 780.

The dates here don't work.

Interestingly enough the
spelling was then Sinclair.

There is no significance in 8th century spelling.

This is the list of people bearing the
title Sinclair in pre conquest Mercia in the Earldom of Tarleton and
Barony of Sinclair

OK, I said it was a place, but not in England. There was no title
Sinclair, no Earldom of Tarleton, no Barony of Sinclair. Only Mercia
existed.


are . Sinclair, Adelphia; Sinclair, Albert;
Sinclair, Bonner; Sinclair, Bonner (1); Sinclair, Dauphine; Sinclair,
Duvessa Alpina; Sinclair, Lauretta; Sinclair, Neva; Sinclair, Paulin;
Sinclair, Paulina; Sinclair, Peter; Sinclair, Philippe; Sinclair,
Quinna; Sinclair, Raymond; Sinclair, Trilla; Sinclair, Tudur;
Sinclair, Tudur (1). The multiple names designated by (1) are repeated
names in different generations."

Every single one of these is entirely invented, and not a single one
of these names would be expected in pre-Conquest Mercia. One of the
names, Dauphine, was not coined until several hundred years after the
Conquest.

Sorry. No dice.

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 15 sep 2007 16:18:53

taf <farmerie@interfold.com> ha scritto :


Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?


On Sep 15, 4:22 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
I found this on the Internet. I wonder, can it be truth?

Hardly a word of it.

"Sinclairs were England long before the Norman conquest.

I don't know of any Sinclairs in England prior to the Norman Conquest.

King Offa (AD
757-796) was the king of Mercia, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. He was one of
the most powerful Anglo-Saxon kings and controlled the territory south
of the River Humber, taking in most of England.


More or less true, but irrelevant.

Recently, Niven has by
hard work, has identified Sinclair names from the Doomsday Book. Many
of names identified are pre conquest names.

Philippe Sinclair who died 844 was the first one who we can clearly
identify. He was in the Earl of Tarleton.

Entirely invented. There was no such title as Earl of Tarleton - for
that matter, there was no such title as Earl of anywhere prior to the
time of Canute, when the Scandinavian Jarl was sometimes used for
Ealdorman, giving rise to Earl. I don't know that Tarleton was a title
until after the American Revolution, so this is off by about 900
years.

The Barons of Sinclair.
Were Tudur 1 and 2, Raymond, Trilla, Quinna.

All invented.

The original Holy Light
(Saint Clair) title Holders were men who protected the Merovingian
kings of France.

This is fantasy - it was not a title, it was a place, and there is no
record of anyone protecting the Merovingian kings.

Charlemagne sent to his friend and correspondent,
Offa, king of Mercia. Sinclairs around 780.

The dates here don't work.

Interestingly enough the
spelling was then Sinclair.

There is no significance in 8th century spelling.

This is the list of people bearing the
title Sinclair in pre conquest Mercia in the Earldom of Tarleton and
Barony of Sinclair

OK, I said it was a place, but not in England. There was no title
Sinclair, no Earldom of Tarleton, no Barony of Sinclair. Only Mercia
existed.


are . Sinclair, Adelphia; Sinclair, Albert;
Sinclair, Bonner; Sinclair, Bonner (1); Sinclair, Dauphine; Sinclair,
Duvessa Alpina; Sinclair, Lauretta; Sinclair, Neva; Sinclair, Paulin;
Sinclair, Paulina; Sinclair, Peter; Sinclair, Philippe; Sinclair,
Quinna; Sinclair, Raymond; Sinclair, Trilla; Sinclair, Tudur;
Sinclair, Tudur (1). The multiple names designated by (1) are repeated
names in different generations."

Every single one of these is entirely invented, and not a single one
of these names would be expected in pre-Conquest Mercia. One of the
names, Dauphine, was not coined until several hundred years after the
Conquest.

Sorry. No dice.

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 15 sep 2007 16:18:56

Thank you


"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> ha scritto :

Dear 'zichmni',

The possibility exists that a St. Clair or two had contacts
across the channel before 1066 (see the careers of Count Eustace of
Boulogne, and William Malet of Graville). However, the account given
below appears to derive from wishful thinking, or worse, as opposed to
documentation.

At the same time, use large amounts of sodium chloride when
reading the words of Dan Brown or others having to do with the early
(Merovingian or before) origins of the St. Clair or Sinclair family.

Cheers,

John



On Sep 15, 7:22 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
I found this on the Internet. I wonder, can it be truth?

"Sinclairs were England long before the Norman conquest. King Offa (AD
757-796) was the king of Mercia, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. He was one of
the most powerful Anglo-Saxon kings and controlled the territory south
of the River Humber, taking in most of England. Recently, Niven has by
hard work, has identified Sinclair names from the Doomsday Book. Many
of names identified are pre conquest names.

Philippe Sinclair who died 844 was the first one who we can clearly
identify. He was in the Earl of Tarleton. The Barons of Sinclair.
Were Tudur 1 and 2, Raymond, Trilla, Quinna. The original Holy Light
(Saint Clair) title Holders were men who protected the Merovingian
kings of France. Charlemagne sent to his friend and correspondent,
Offa, king of Mercia. Sinclairs around 780. Interestingly enough the
spelling was then Sinclair. This is the list of people bearing the
title Sinclair in pre conquest Mercia in the Earldom of Tarleton and
Barony of Sinclair are . Sinclair, Adelphia; Sinclair, Albert;
Sinclair, Bonner; Sinclair, Bonner (1); Sinclair, Dauphine; Sinclair,
Duvessa Alpina; Sinclair, Lauretta; Sinclair, Neva; Sinclair, Paulin;
Sinclair, Paulina; Sinclair, Peter; Sinclair, Philippe; Sinclair,
Quinna; Sinclair, Raymond; Sinclair, Trilla; Sinclair, Tudur;
Sinclair, Tudur (1). The multiple names designated by (1) are repeated
names in different generations."

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 15 sep 2007 17:07:03

On Sep 15, 8:18 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?


Unfortunately, there has been more than a century of time for these
things to grow and grow. They have done so by a combination of well-
meaning but utterly incompetent or overenthusiastic historians and
genealogists, fraudsters, and fiction writers all providing grist for
each others' mills.

Look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This was written and marketed as
history (admittedly, secret hidden alternative history), based on the
documents of the Priory of Sion, yet the priory documents were
forgeries. Then Dan Brown writes Da Vinci Code based on Holy Blood,
Holy Grail, intending fiction, but hinting (as would any good fiction
writer) that the historical background is to be believed, and just the
modern events are fictitious. I have already seen indications that
people are taking material from Dan Brown and putting it in reality-
based media (like in Wikipedia historical articles). This all just
keeps feeding on itself in a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop.

[Just as an aside, if HBHG was history, then any fictional author is
free to incorporate it as the background to their fiction - historical
facts can't be proprietary. However, if HBHG was fiction, then DVC
could be said to have stolen the fictional framework established in
HBHG, and the authors deserve compensation. Suddenly, as DVC becomes a
multi-million-dollar bestseller and after years of maintaining that
theirs was a work of history, the authors of HBHG sued Dan Brown for
stealing their fiction.]

As to any particular detail in the account, we may ever know where it
came from. All we can do is look at the surviving historical record
and show that none of these people appear, and that there are aspects
that fly in the face of known history.

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 15 sep 2007 19:31:20

taf <farmerie@interfold.com> ha scritto :

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

On Sep 15, 8:18 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?


Unfortunately, there has been more than a century of time for these
things to grow and grow. They have done so by a combination of well-
meaning but utterly incompetent or overenthusiastic historians and
genealogists, fraudsters, and fiction writers all providing grist for
each others' mills.

Look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This was written and marketed as
history (admittedly, secret hidden alternative history), based on the
documents of the Priory of Sion, yet the priory documents were
forgeries. Then Dan Brown writes Da Vinci Code based on Holy Blood,
Holy Grail, intending fiction, but hinting (as would any good fiction
writer) that the historical background is to be believed, and just the
modern events are fictitious. I have already seen indications that
people are taking material from Dan Brown and putting it in reality-
based media (like in Wikipedia historical articles). This all just
keeps feeding on itself in a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop.

[Just as an aside, if HBHG was history, then any fictional author is
free to incorporate it as the background to their fiction - historical
facts can't be proprietary. However, if HBHG was fiction, then DVC
could be said to have stolen the fictional framework established in
HBHG, and the authors deserve compensation. Suddenly, as DVC becomes a
multi-million-dollar bestseller and after years of maintaining that
theirs was a work of history, the authors of HBHG sued Dan Brown for
stealing their fiction.]

As to any particular detail in the account, we may ever know where it
came from. All we can do is look at the surviving historical record
and show that none of these people appear, and that there are aspects
that fly in the face of known history.

taf

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 15 sep 2007 19:41:31

On Sep 15, 11:31 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclairhttp://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

On Sep 15, 8:18 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?

Unfortunately, there has been more than a century of time for these
things to grow and grow. They have done so by a combination of well-
meaning but utterly incompetent or overenthusiastic historians and
genealogists, fraudsters, and fiction writers all providing grist for
each others' mills.

Look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This was written and marketed as
history (admittedly, secret hidden alternative history), based on the
documents of the Priory of Sion, yet the priory documents were
forgeries. Then Dan Brown writes Da Vinci Code based on Holy Blood,
Holy Grail, intending fiction, but hinting (as would any good fiction
writer) that the historical background is to be believed, and just the
modern events are fictitious. I have already seen indications that
people are taking material from Dan Brown and putting it in reality-
based media (like in Wikipedia historical articles). This all just
keeps feeding on itself in a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop.

[Just as an aside, if HBHG was history, then any fictional author is
free to incorporate it as the background to their fiction - historical
facts can't be proprietary. However, if HBHG was fiction, then DVC
could be said to have stolen the fictional framework established in
HBHG, and the authors deserve compensation. Suddenly, as DVC becomes a
multi-million-dollar bestseller and after years of maintaining that
theirs was a work of history, the authors of HBHG sued Dan Brown for
stealing their fiction.]

As to any particular detail in the account, we may ever know where it
came from. All we can do is look at the surviving historical record
and show that none of these people appear, and that there are aspects
that fly in the face of known history.

taf

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 15 sep 2007 20:03:41

Dear 'zichmni',

The webpage which provided the bogus information you found is
actually that of John Sinclair Quarterman; whatever else may of be of
use from that or the connected pages, anything noted there alleged to
be the genealogy or family history of the Sinclairs before say 1250
should not be trusted.

That there is plenty of garbage to find, as pointed out by Todd,
is a certainty. The following is from the "actual" Clan Sinclair
webpage, http://www.clansinclair.org

[NOTE: the following is an extraction only; it is erroneous in
regard
to those details as given concerning the Sinclair or St. Clair
family
ca. 1066 or before.]

" In olden times surnames were not used but the key family figure in
the late 9th Century was a Norwegian, Rognvald, Jarl of Moeri, who,
with King Harald Fairhair, conquered the Orkney Isles and later
Caithness and was created Jarl or Earl. One of his sons Einar
succeeded to the title and established the line of Norse Jarls, most
of whom owed allegance to both the Scandinavian and Scottish Monarchs
until 1470. Another Rollo conquered Neustria (Normandy) in France and
his direct descendent was the 7th Duke of Normandy, William the
Conqueror, who became King of England. The name Sinclair probably
comes from St Clair-sur-Lo in Normandy and was established in Scotland
in 1057 when William St Clair, a close relative of William the
Conqueror, was given the life barony of Rosslyn, near Edinburgh, and
in England, by others of his family, after they were given land and
titles following the Battle of Hastings in 1066."

At least the foregoing does not extend the errors any earlier
than 1066........

The earliest individual I see that can be accepted as an ancestor
of the Sinclairs of Roslin or Rosslyn was Sir William de St. Clair,
sheriff of Haddington in 1264, and of Edinburgh in 1266 [see
Dictionary of National Biography, LII:307]. It was evidently his son
Sir William who was a guardian of Alexander, prince of Scotland (son
of Alexander III) in 1279-1281. King Alexander III granted a charter
to "Willielmo de Sancto Claro, militi" of the lands of Innerleith
which was dated at Haddington, 8 April 31 Alex III [1280 - Hay,
Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn (Edinburgh: Thomas G.
Stevenson, 1835), p. 43].

Cheers,

John

Cheers,

John



On Sep 15, 2:31 pm, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclairhttp://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

On Sep 15, 8:18 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?

Unfortunately, there has been more than a century of time for these
things to grow and grow. They have done so by a combination of well-
meaning but utterly incompetent or overenthusiastic historians and
genealogists, fraudsters, and fiction writers all providing grist for
each others' mills.

Look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This was written and marketed as
history (admittedly, secret hidden alternative history), based on the
documents of the Priory of Sion, yet the priory documents were
forgeries. Then Dan Brown writes Da Vinci Code based on Holy Blood,
Holy Grail, intending fiction, but hinting (as would any good fiction
writer) that the historical background is to be believed, and just the
modern events are fictitious. I have already seen indications that
people are taking material from Dan Brown and putting it in reality-
based media (like in Wikipedia historical articles). This all just
keeps feeding on itself in a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop.

[Just as an aside, if HBHG was history, then any fictional author is
free to incorporate it as the background to their fiction - historical
facts can't be proprietary. However, if HBHG was fiction, then DVC
could be said to have stolen the fictional framework established in
HBHG, and the authors deserve compensation. Suddenly, as DVC becomes a
multi-million-dollar bestseller and after years of maintaining that
theirs was a work of history, the authors of HBHG sued Dan Brown for
stealing their fiction.]

As to any particular detail in the account, we may ever know where it
came from. All we can do is look at the surviving historical record
and show that none of these people appear, and that there are aspects
that fly in the face of known history.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 sep 2007 20:08:19

<G>

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 15 sep 2007 20:47:08

Thank you that web page looks better. In any case I am most interested
of the later Sinclair and the eventual connection with Nicolò Zeno,
not so much the origine of the Sinclair family.

Thank you to all who have answered.

"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> ha scritto :

Dear 'zichmni',

The webpage which provided the bogus information you found is
actually that of John Sinclair Quarterman; whatever else may of be of
use from that or the connected pages, anything noted there alleged to
be the genealogy or family history of the Sinclairs before say 1250
should not be trusted.

That there is plenty of garbage to find, as pointed out by Todd,
is a certainty. The following is from the "actual" Clan Sinclair
webpage, http://www.clansinclair.org

[NOTE: the following is an extraction only; it is erroneous in
regard
to those details as given concerning the Sinclair or St. Clair
family
ca. 1066 or before.]

" In olden times surnames were not used but the key family figure in
the late 9th Century was a Norwegian, Rognvald, Jarl of Moeri, who,
with King Harald Fairhair, conquered the Orkney Isles and later
Caithness and was created Jarl or Earl. One of his sons Einar
succeeded to the title and established the line of Norse Jarls, most
of whom owed allegance to both the Scandinavian and Scottish Monarchs
until 1470. Another Rollo conquered Neustria (Normandy) in France and
his direct descendent was the 7th Duke of Normandy, William the
Conqueror, who became King of England. The name Sinclair probably
comes from St Clair-sur-Lo in Normandy and was established in Scotland
in 1057 when William St Clair, a close relative of William the
Conqueror, was given the life barony of Rosslyn, near Edinburgh, and
in England, by others of his family, after they were given land and
titles following the Battle of Hastings in 1066."

At least the foregoing does not extend the errors any earlier
than 1066........

The earliest individual I see that can be accepted as an ancestor
of the Sinclairs of Roslin or Rosslyn was Sir William de St. Clair,
sheriff of Haddington in 1264, and of Edinburgh in 1266 [see
Dictionary of National Biography, LII:307]. It was evidently his son
Sir William who was a guardian of Alexander, prince of Scotland (son
of Alexander III) in 1279-1281. King Alexander III granted a charter
to "Willielmo de Sancto Claro, militi" of the lands of Innerleith
which was dated at Haddington, 8 April 31 Alex III [1280 - Hay,
Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn (Edinburgh: Thomas G.
Stevenson, 1835), p. 43].

Cheers,

John

Cheers,

John



On Sep 15, 2:31 pm, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclairhttp://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

On Sep 15, 8:18 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
taf <farme...@interfold.com> ha scritto :

Thank you, but how can a person write all this if it is not correct?
Where does it come from?

Unfortunately, there has been more than a century of time for these
things to grow and grow. They have done so by a combination of well-
meaning but utterly incompetent or overenthusiastic historians and
genealogists, fraudsters, and fiction writers all providing grist for
each others' mills.

Look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This was written and marketed as
history (admittedly, secret hidden alternative history), based on the
documents of the Priory of Sion, yet the priory documents were
forgeries. Then Dan Brown writes Da Vinci Code based on Holy Blood,
Holy Grail, intending fiction, but hinting (as would any good fiction
writer) that the historical background is to be believed, and just the
modern events are fictitious. I have already seen indications that
people are taking material from Dan Brown and putting it in reality-
based media (like in Wikipedia historical articles). This all just
keeps feeding on itself in a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop.

[Just as an aside, if HBHG was history, then any fictional author is
free to incorporate it as the background to their fiction - historical
facts can't be proprietary. However, if HBHG was fiction, then DVC
could be said to have stolen the fictional framework established in
HBHG, and the authors deserve compensation. Suddenly, as DVC becomes a
multi-million-dollar bestseller and after years of maintaining that
theirs was a work of history, the authors of HBHG sued Dan Brown for
stealing their fiction.]

As to any particular detail in the account, we may ever know where it
came from. All we can do is look at the surviving historical record
and show that none of these people appear, and that there are aspects
that fly in the face of known history.

taf

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 15 sep 2007 21:31:58

On Sep 15, 12:47 pm, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
Thank you that web page looks better. In any case I am most interested
of the later Sinclair and the eventual connection with Nicolò Zeno,


Umm . . . I would recommend caution there too.

taf

Tim

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av Tim » 15 sep 2007 22:54:42

On Sep 15, 4:31 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:47 pm, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:

Thank you that web page looks better. In any case I am most interested
of the later Sinclair and the eventual connection with Nicolò Zeno,

Umm . . . I would recommend caution there too.

taf

Are there any genuine descents from the Merovingians? I think it's
possible (through biographies on Wikipedia) to trace a descent from
the Merovingians to the Carolingians, and then from the Carolingians
to the Capetians.

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 15 sep 2007 23:03:05

On Sep 15, 2:54 pm, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any genuine descents from the Merovingians? I think it's
possible (through biographies on Wikipedia) to trace a descent from
the Merovingians to the Carolingians, and then from the Carolingians
to the Capetians.

None that can be fully documented. There are some out there, but most
of them depend on connections that were written about hundreds of
years after the fact, at a time after the Carolingians had succeeded,
and hence it is not unlikely there was a degree of justification of
the Carolingian supplantation in their composition. A second group
depend on no documentation at all, but rather similarities in naming
patterns leading to speculative connections, that have then been
repeated until the speculative nature has been hidden.

taf

Tim

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av Tim » 16 sep 2007 03:30:56

On Sep 15, 6:03 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Sep 15, 2:54 pm, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any genuine descents from the Merovingians? I think it's
possible (through biographies on Wikipedia) to trace a descent from
the Merovingians to the Carolingians, and then from the Carolingians
to the Capetians.

None that can be fully documented. There are some out there, but most
of them depend on connections that were written about hundreds of
years after the fact, at a time after the Carolingians had succeeded,
and hence it is not unlikely there was a degree of justification of
the Carolingian supplantation in their composition. A second group
depend on no documentation at all, but rather similarities in naming
patterns leading to speculative connections, that have then been
repeated until the speculative nature has been hidden.

taf

One Wikipedia genealogy lists Charlemagne's mother as Bertha
(Broadfoot) of Laon, daughter of Charibert of Laon, son of Bertha
(Bertrada) of Prum (Merovingian princess), daughter of Merovingian
King Theuderic III. However, an alternate genealogy, also on
Wikipedia, lists Bertha (Bertrada) of Prum as the daughter of Hugobert
(one of King Theuderic III's palace officials).

taf

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av taf » 16 sep 2007 03:40:35

On Sep 15, 7:30 pm, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

One Wikipedia genealogy lists Charlemagne's mother as Bertha
(Broadfoot) of Laon, daughter of Charibert of Laon, son of Bertha
(Bertrada) of Prum (Merovingian princess), daughter of Merovingian
King Theuderic III. However, an alternate genealogy, also on
Wikipedia, lists Bertha (Bertrada) of Prum as the daughter of Hugobert
(one of King Theuderic III's palace officials).

Yes. What is documented is that Bertrada is mother of Charibert. Her
parentage is entirely speculative. Such is the case with all attempts
to trace to the Merovingian kings, . . . well, those that don't
involve probable forgeries.

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs in England before conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 09:11:50

Naturally. That is why I write eventual .

taf <farmerie@interfold.com> ha scritto :

On Sep 15, 12:47 pm, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:
Thank you that web page looks better. In any case I am most interested
of the later Sinclair and the eventual connection with Nicolò Zeno,


Umm . . . I would recommend caution there too.

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 09:11:50

What is the meaning of <G ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 sep 2007 09:33:15

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 11:06:29

I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?

Bryn

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av Bryn » 16 sep 2007 13:46:55

In article <ntupe3pa6ck3n649t686di693j2asll752@4ax.com>, zichmni
<zichmni@email.it> writes
I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

Do you believe in God?

" " " " Toothfairy?

" " " " Gravity?

Do you think the Bible is history?


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?



--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 sep 2007 15:34:06

Hilarious!

A serious con artist indeed.

DSH

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1189943371.678017.206640@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 16, 3:06 am, zichmni <zich...@email.it> wrote:

I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair.

"Serious association" is a relative term. As I recall, this is an
organization of enthusiasts, not professional scholars, and they have
a particular interest in "yet-to-be accepted" history. I took a look
at two books from their web site, and both are proposing 'alternative
views' of pre-Columbian settlement.

Whittell, in particular, was a researcher along the lines of Barry
Fell, finding 'inscriptions' and "megalythic sites" throughout New
England to demonstrate that virtually the entire population of Europe
and North Africa visited at one time or another, but certainly before
that Johnny-Come-Lately Columbus fellow. His formal title was as
Director of Archaeological Research at the Early Sites Research
Society, which as far as I can tell is a non-profit formed to provide
these pseudo-scientific pursuits with a seeming respectability.

And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

By "main-stream" archaeologists and historians? None of it.

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

That is a good question. I am reminded of a book by Michael Shermer,
"Why People Believe Weird Things".

taf

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 15:39:21

Do you believe in the global warming?
Do you believe in the holocaust?
Do you believe in the lunar landings?
Do you believe in the invisible hand of the market?

I think I understand your point but it becomes to big for me when you
look at it through that objective

Bryn <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> ha scritto :

In article <ntupe3pa6ck3n649t686di693j2asll752@4ax.com>, zichmni
zichmni@email.it> writes
I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

Do you believe in God?

" " " " Toothfairy?

" " " " Gravity?

Do you think the Bible is history?



"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is this
accepted as truth?


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 sep 2007 16:15:01

How old are you?

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:6dfqe311krbh1b9ufj13n0lvpm0igjsi6v@4ax.com...

Do you believe in the global warming?
Do you believe in the holocaust?
Do you believe in the lunar landings?
Do you believe in the invisible hand of the market?

I think I understand your point but it becomes to big for me when you
look at it through that objective

Bryn <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> ha scritto :

In article <ntupe3pa6ck3n649t686di693j2asll752@4ax.com>, zichmni
zichmni@email.it> writes
I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

Do you believe in God?

" " " " Toothfairy?

" " " " Gravity?

Do you think the Bible is history?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this
accepted as truth?

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 17:18:19

That is not a pertinent question.

But I am pleased that you also do not believe in these con artists as
you call them ( nice word ) with their false inscriptions and maps and
lineages.

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

How old are you?

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:6dfqe311krbh1b9ufj13n0lvpm0igjsi6v@4ax.com...

Do you believe in the global warming?
Do you believe in the holocaust?
Do you believe in the lunar landings?
Do you believe in the invisible hand of the market?

I think I understand your point but it becomes to big for me when you
look at it through that objective

Bryn <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> ha scritto :

In article <ntupe3pa6ck3n649t686di693j2asll752@4ax.com>, zichmni
zichmni@email.it> writes
I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

Do you believe in God?

" " " " Toothfairy?

" " " " Gravity?

Do you think the Bible is history?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this
accepted as truth?

Normandy

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av Normandy » 16 sep 2007 17:23:32

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this
accepted as truth?

Who accepts that myth as truth? Are you Nicolo Zeno of Venice/


Normandy

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 sep 2007 17:37:31

No, it is a very pertinent question.

You seem to be a callow teenager.

Are you?...

Or are you just pretending to be one?

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:38lqe3tad8as7tq5q7d3h18rk6gu9ousq2@4ax.com...

That is not a pertinent question.

But I am pleased that you also do not believe in these con artists as
you call them ( nice word ) with their false inscriptions and maps and
lineages.

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

How old are you?

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:6dfqe311krbh1b9ufj13n0lvpm0igjsi6v@4ax.com...

Do you believe in the global warming?
Do you believe in the holocaust?
Do you believe in the lunar landings?
Do you believe in the invisible hand of the market?

I think I understand your point but it becomes to big for me when you
look at it through that objective

Bryn <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> ha scritto :

In article <ntupe3pa6ck3n649t686di693j2asll752@4ax.com>, zichmni
zichmni@email.it> writes
I think I know why you laugh. But the citation about Prince Henry
Sinclair which I gave was from James Whittall of New England
Antiquities Research Association and therefore it appears that a
serious association believes that the tower is built by Sinclair. And
so I wonder how much it is accepted as the truth?

I am interested of the psycology of those who believe these things.
Why do people invent a excellent genealogy for the Sinclair family
although it is pure fiction? Why do they believe the Newport tower was
built before Columbus? Why do they believe in absurdities like the
Westford knight and the false map of Vinland?

Do you believe in God?

" " " " Toothfairy?

" " " " Gravity?

Do you think the Bible is history?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

A Big Grin & Laugh.

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:k9ppe3d5gura0883mvrit3u90d624utqf2@4ax.com...

What is the meaning of <G> ?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> ha scritto :

G

DSH

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this accepted as truth?

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 18:07:50

Some people appear to accept this myth as the truth. I found the
reference at

http://sinclair.quarterman.org/archive/ ... 00127.html
It is written by a man called Niven Sinclair. He described Whittall as
"powerful and convincing".

On the same page there is a link to the alleged Sinclairs in England
before the Conquest. Also that is a myth, which is now confirmed by
the people in this group.

Im an not Niccolò Zeno but I do research on the Zeno narrative. I have
discovered from where the name Zichmni comes. It is a corruption of a
different name, but that name is not Sinclair. This I will prove in a
study I am writing.

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> ha scritto :

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this
accepted as truth?

Who accepts that myth as truth? Are you Nicolo Zeno of Venice/

Normandy

zichmni

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av zichmni » 16 sep 2007 20:36:55

Thanks you very much. I agree with Brian Smith that Zichmni is a
fictional character, but I think that I have solved the paleographical
problem of the origine of the name.


"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> ha scritto :

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> wrote in message
news:en8oe358okmi0n88l3r9k11qolsaqoeoi3@4ax.com...

But I have found that genealogy at the archive of the web site of
the
Clan Sinclair http://sinclair.quarterman.org. I presumed the
research
was good.

Is also other information false there? For example, it constates
that
the Newport Tower was built by Prince Henry Sinclair in 1399. Is
this
accepted as truth?

Who accepts that myth as truth? Are you Nicolo Zeno of Venice/

Normandy

Julius Ward Howe

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av Julius Ward Howe » 18 sep 2007 00:33:29

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:11:00 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

"zichmni" <zichmni@email.it> a écrit dans le message de news:
01oqe392e226j21hcjhtcag3org5miv95k@4ax.com...
Some people appear to accept this myth as the truth. I found the
reference at

Niven Sinclair has pushed this myth forever.
You may be interested in this by Professor Smith



It just doesn't get any better than this. There's enough material here
for a couple more Da Vinci Codes, yet another Last Templar, and at
least one more Rule of Four (although set at a different Ivy League
university).

First we have the issue of the Newport Tower, raised by a callow
Italian going by the kinky name of "zinchmi" who posted to
soc.genealogy.medieval with a reference to the kooky research of James
P. Whittall, Jr. (long may Mary Jane Battle to defend his honor). You
can read Whittall's obituary here,
http://www.neara.org/ROS/Whittal.htm, written by a person with the
plausible name of "Roslyn" Strong.

And you can read about the Sinclair clan's plans to erect a plaque in
Scotland, "in recognition of the work of James Whittall in identifying
Newport Tower in Rhode Island with the voyage of Prince Henry Sinclair
in 1398": http://tinyurl.com/39xtc9.

Now we have been given a reference to an article by Brian Smith in
which he thanks his friend Niven Sinclair while sacrilegiously
demolishing one of Niven's pet theories about "Prince" Henry
Sinclair's voyage to America. How dare he do this to Niven, a direct
descendant of Jesus? See this representative of the Scotch-diluted
holy bloodline here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE9XI2ndUvc

This all began with a hilarious pre-Conquest genealogy of the Sinclair
"clan" in England, which turns out to have been posted
(http://tinyurl.com/32u4rs) by someone who happened to be in the same
residential college at Yale as DSH, graduating a year before him.

Curiously, each of these men accuses the other of being a fraud.

And a library at that same university has the dubious honor of holding
a bogus "medieval" world map which is claimed as further proof of
pre-Columbian voyages. And one of the most ardent defenders of that
forgery in these newsgroups is the archkook DSH himself, cousin of
just about everybody who's worth cousining (and cozening), although he
has, understandably, never published any details of his fictitious
genealogy. Here we certainly have the makings of a new bestseller,
possibly the first blockbuster where the majority of the action takes
place on Usenet.

Other curious details could add a piquant flavor to the forthcoming
novel. For instance, it has been revealed that a poor but enterprising
student founded the New England Toilet Cleaning Co. Inc. during his
days at Yale in the early sixties http://tinyurl.com/2b9age). Did he
ever clean DSH's toilet? What nasty secrets could this inhabitant of
Normandy have discovered in that john at Timothy Dwight, thus spawning
the bitter enmity between the two Elis?

And what juicy revelations and bodily juices were exchanged four
decades later between the offspring of David "Spencer" Hines and
Alan "Spencer" Surreyman? http://tinyurl.com/3at8mm

Is Yale the key that will unlock the whole mystery?

And has no one spotted the parallel we have here to the series of
grand masters of the Priory of Zion? I am referring to the chain
linking the following individuals. I won't insult your intelligence by
spelling out the details. You will see the connections for yourselves:

Charles II's personal physician Doctor Condom
Thomas Crapper
The founder of the New England Toilet Cleaning Co.
Upton Sinclair
Robert Heinlein
David Hines
Diana Spencer
Elton "John"
Reginald Dwight
Timothy Dwight
Timothy Danaos et Dona Ferentes,
which neatly brings us back to the Trojan we started with.

It's obvious that there is potential here to echo Umberto's
entertaining novel, i.e., to write a pendant to Foucault's Pendulum,
for which I propose the title: Spencer's Lavatory Chain.


Julius Ward Howe

"Flush them all. The Big Turd will recognize his own."
_The Purge of the Last Catharsis_
by Jacques Donagher

Julius Ward Howe

Re: Sinclairs In England Before The Conquest

Legg inn av Julius Ward Howe » 24 sep 2007 00:32:42

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