Gen Petraeus

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Michael Kohn

Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Michael Kohn » 12 sep 2007 22:51:25

For those of us who have met Gen Petraeus and listened to him tell the troops how it really is know he is the real thing - an American leader - honest and straight to the point something that most cut and run 'lets surrender to whoever will take our apologies' Democrats can't stomach because they don't want to hear the truth!
We should add that his only son is an Army officer newly commissioned and just received his jump wings......he too will go into combat in the near future because like his father he knows we have to win against the muslim terrorists!

--- gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com wrote:

From: gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1187
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:52:22 -0600



Today's Topics:

1. Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of
Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford (Douglas Richardson)
2. Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of
Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford (Matthew Connolly)
3. Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of
Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford (Matthew Connolly)
4. Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report
(D. Spencer Hines)
5. Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband? (Christopher Ingham)
6. Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of
Sir Richard de Sta... (WJhonson@aol.com)
7. Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt
Romney's Family Tree (S�im� mac Liam)
8. Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt
Romney's Family Tree (mcclurera@verizon.net)
9. Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of
Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford (Kay Allen)

taf

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av taf » 13 sep 2007 02:08:13

On Sep 12, 2:51 pm, "Michael Kohn" <MikeK...@emailaccount.com> wrote:
For those of us who have met Gen Petraeus and listened to him tell the troops how it really is know he is the real thing - an American leader - honest and straight to the point


But did he live before 1500?

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 02:40:09

Twaddle...

The Mediaeval Period in Europe lasted until at least 1600 and longer in
Russia, for example.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1189645693.879418.76930@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 12, 2:51 pm, "Michael Kohn" <MikeK...@emailaccount.com> wrote:

For those of us who have met Gen Petraeus and listened to him tell the
troops how it really is know he is the real thing - an American leader -
honest and straight to the point

But did he live before 1500?

taf

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 13 sep 2007 02:44:23

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:hy0Gi.43$H_5.173@eagle.america.net...
Twaddle...

The Mediaeval Period in Europe lasted until at least 1600 and longer in
Russia, for example.

DSH


nope. it was over by theend of the 15th century.

once again the hinesquaters shows he is even dunber than the faux
highlander.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 09:49:41

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
IZWdnY2GBd9lCHXbnZ2dnUVZ_tCrnZ2d@rcn.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:hy0Gi.43$H_5.173@eagle.america.net...
Twaddle...

The Mediaeval Period in Europe lasted until at least 1600 and longer in
Russia, for example.

DSH


nope. it was over by theend of the 15th century.

once again the hinesquaters shows he is even dunber than the faux
highlander.

Spot on for Brits the Mediaeval Period ended with the Battle of Bosworth
and the end of the Wars of the Roses. The introduction of the Tudor era it
was the beginning of modern England. Other parts of Europe chose other
events among them; Turkish capture of Constantinople or the end of the
Anglo-French Hundred Years' War both events in 1453, the invention of
printing by Johann Gutenberg circa 1455, the fall of Muslim Spain or
Christopher Columbus's voyage to America 1492. I know of no event chosen
later that the 15th century


Normandy

Vance Mead

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Vance Mead » 13 sep 2007 11:30:42

I have read several histories that put the end of the middle ages at
the Reformation, at the Act of Supremacy or the Dissolution of the
monasteries, so sometime in the 1530s.

Of course, there is no absolute date. There was still open field
agriculture well into the 19th century and copyhold tenure was
abolished only in the 1920s.
Vance



nope. it was over by theend of the 15th century.

once again the hinesquaters shows he is even dunber than the faux
highlander.

Spot on for Brits the Mediaeval Period ended with the Battle of Bosworth
and the end of the Wars of the Roses. The introduction of the Tudor era it
was the beginning of modern England. Other parts of Europe chose other
events among them; Turkish capture of Constantinople or the end of the
Anglo-French Hundred Years' War both events in 1453, the invention of
printing by Johann Gutenberg circa 1455, the fall of Muslim Spain or
Christopher Columbus's voyage to America 1492. I know of no event chosen
later that the 15th century

Normandy

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 11:51:36

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189679442.056547.306500@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
I have read several histories that put the end of the middle ages at
the Reformation, at the Act of Supremacy or the Dissolution of the
monasteries, so sometime in the 1530s.

Of course, there is no absolute date. There was still open field
agriculture well into the 19th century and copyhold tenure was
abolished only in the 1920s.
Vance



Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?


Normandy

Avilan

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Avilan » 13 sep 2007 12:48:12

On Sep 13, 12:51 pm, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
"Vance Mead" <vance.m...@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189679442.056547.306...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...>I have read several histories that put the end of the middle ages at
the Reformation, at the Act of Supremacy or the Dissolution of the
monasteries, so sometime in the 1530s.

Of course, there is no absolute date. There was still open field
agriculture well into the 19th century and copyhold tenure was
abolished only in the 1920s.
Vance

Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?

Normandy

(First time poster in this group)
I guess it comes down to regions, really. In Sweden the milestone that
is the end of the Middle Ages is very clear: When Gustav I took the
throne in the early 16th century.

/Stefan

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 13 sep 2007 13:00:14

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e9164c$0$25954$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189679442.056547.306500@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
I have read several histories that put the end of the middle ages at
the Reformation, at the Act of Supremacy or the Dissolution of the
monasteries, so sometime in the 1530s.

Of course, there is no absolute date. There was still open field
agriculture well into the 19th century and copyhold tenure was
abolished only in the 1920s.
Vance



Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?


Well when I was at school the Middle Ages in England were said to run from
1066 until 1485, at which point the Renaissance started.

This ran until 1688, at which point the 'Early Modern' period started.

The 'Modern period' started with 'The Great Reform Act' of 1832.

All this was driven by GM Trevelyan's book, 'The History of England' which
set the standard for English history teaching from just after 1926 until
about 1970.

Trevelyan's ideas became horribly unfashionable in about 1960 and so the
syllabus was modified so that some social history was included in the 'kings
and things' narrative. However the dates remained, mainly because they
define times of basic change in English life.

Later historians have argued that apart from small numbers of people from
the upper ranges of society these dates didn't change much in people's lives
at all and that better dates would be 410 to around 1200 for early medieval,
1200 to 1530 for later medieval, 1530 to 1642 for the Renaissance, 1642 to
1688 for 'The English revolution', 1688 until 1815 for 'The Enlightenment',
1815 to 1914 for 'Empire and Industrialisation', 1914 to 1956 for
'Decline'.

But nobody's doing anything about it...

The current government has a view of history that is, as a matter of
policy, Post Modern. This does rather mean that the idea of teaching
history isn't fashionable.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Vance Mead

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Vance Mead » 13 sep 2007 13:52:11

Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?



This was the point I was trying to make. The Middle Ages end at
different times, depending on how we define them. 1485 has always
between an arbitrary date - Henry VII was a medieval king, certainly
not a Renaissance one.

If we define the Middle Ages in terms of Renaissance New Learning,
then the date might be John Colet's foundation of St Paul's School in
1512.

If it's religion, the Act of Supramacy of 1534.

If feudal tenure, then a good date is 1646, when Parliament abolished
the Court of Wards and Wardship.

For the majority of people, scraping out a living on the land,
perhaops the most fundamental change was enclosure in the 18th
century.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 14:14:40

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189687931.781209.249270@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?



This was the point I was trying to make. The Middle Ages end at
different times, depending on how we define them. 1485 has always
between an arbitrary date - Henry VII was a medieval king, certainly
not a Renaissance one.

If we define the Middle Ages in terms of Renaissance New Learning,
then the date might be John Colet's foundation of St Paul's School in
1512.

If it's religion, the Act of Supramacy of 1534.

If feudal tenure, then a good date is 1646, when Parliament abolished
the Court of Wards and Wardship.

For the majority of people, scraping out a living on the land,
perhaops the most fundamental change was enclosure in the 18th
century.

That is only England's end date what about the rest of Europe?

Normandy



Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 15:28:13

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance

Do you consider serfdom the only measure of the end of the Middle Ages?

This site claims the Middle Ages in Europe ended in the 14th and 15th
century
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/

"In the Middle Ages, networks of personal agreements formed the basis of the
political, economic and social systems. How these agreements developed and
how they were utilised during the early Middle Ages are currently topics of
scholarly debate. Nevertheless, by the late Middle Ages, the terminology and
concepts that are implied in the designation of a feudal society had been
defined by the legal profession and can be applied to the time period of
this tutorial. "

As you read through this site you find it claims that the Middle Ages were
finished in Europe by the end of the 15th century. It uses many measures
beside serfdom. Please be kind enough to take a look and say what you think.

Normandy

Michael Kuettner

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Michael Kuettner » 13 sep 2007 15:51:13

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:46e937d5$0$27409$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189687931.781209.249270@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle Ages?



This was the point I was trying to make. The Middle Ages end at
different times, depending on how we define them. 1485 has always
between an arbitrary date - Henry VII was a medieval king, certainly
not a Renaissance one.

If we define the Middle Ages in terms of Renaissance New Learning,
then the date might be John Colet's foundation of St Paul's School in
1512.

If it's religion, the Act of Supramacy of 1534.

If feudal tenure, then a good date is 1646, when Parliament abolished
the Court of Wards and Wardship.

For the majority of people, scraping out a living on the land,
perhaops the most fundamental change was enclosure in the 18th
century.

That is only England's end date what about the rest of Europe?

Roughly 500 to 1500.

There's no clear cut start and end date. "Medieval" is just a convenient
label for a time in which many gradual changes and inventions, which
form the world as it is today, happened.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Tiglath

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Tiglath » 13 sep 2007 16:18:16

On Sep 13, 6:30 am, Vance Mead <vance.m...@mead.inet.fi> wrote:
I have read several histories that put the end of the middle ages at
the Reformation, at the Act of Supremacy or the Dissolution of the
monasteries, so sometime in the 1530s.

Of course, there is no absolute date. There was still open field
agriculture well into the 19th century and copyhold tenure was
abolished only in the 1920s.
Vance

nope. it was over by theend of the 15th century.

once again the hinesquaters shows he is even dunber than the faux
highlander.

Spot on for Brits the Mediaeval Period ended with the Battle of Bosworth
and the end of the Wars of the Roses. The introduction of the Tudor era it
was the beginning of modern England. Other parts of Europe chose other
events among them; Turkish capture of Constantinople or the end of the
Anglo-French Hundred Years' War both events in 1453, the invention of
printing by Johann Gutenberg circa 1455, the fall of Muslim Spain or
Christopher Columbus's voyage to America 1492. I know of no event chosen
later that the 15th century

Normandy



Another silly odometer thread.

Like people attaching significance to the year 2000.

Only that the new millennium, if it meant something, started in 2001.

Only that Jesus was actually born, if he existed at all, in 4 A.D.

Silly human lines in the sand....

Which is the last arm cell and which is the first shoulder cell?

All serious subjects, keep going...

Vance Mead

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Vance Mead » 13 sep 2007 16:28:15

If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.


Another silly odometer thread.

Like people attaching significance to the year 2000.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 13 sep 2007 16:29:19

Vance Mead wrote:
Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle
Ages?

This was the point I was trying to make. The Middle Ages end at
different times, depending on how we define them. 1485 has always
between an arbitrary date - Henry VII was a medieval king, certainly
not a Renaissance one.

The point about 1485 is that it is the nearest convenient date to 1500.

If we define the Middle Ages in terms of Renaissance New Learning,
then the date might be John Colet's foundation of St Paul's School in
1512.

If it's religion, the Act of Supramacy of 1534.

Leaving the rest of Europe to limp on to 1570?

Doesn't it also make the years 1553 to 1558 rather problematic?
--
John Briggs

Vance Mead

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Vance Mead » 13 sep 2007 16:40:14

I specifically used many different measures of the end of the Middle
Ages: the New Learning, religion, feudal tenures.

And in each case, depending on which measure you use, you can use a
different date, all of which are, ultimately arbitrary.

Do you consider serfdom the only measure of the end of the Middle Ages?

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 13 sep 2007 16:41:48

Vance Mead wrote:
If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.

And the reply was that 1500 was chosen by convention, with adjustment in the
case of individual countries - 1492 in the case of America.
--
John Briggs

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 16:44:49

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189698014.626294.14630@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
I specifically used many different measures of the end of the Middle
Ages: the New Learning, religion, feudal tenures.

And in each case, depending on which measure you use, you can use a
different date, all of which are, ultimately arbitrary.


Which one of the measures you cite would you consider the most definitive?

Normandy

a.spencer3

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 13 sep 2007 17:48:18

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0TcGi.29217$ka7.10886@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Vance Mead wrote:
If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.

And the reply was that 1500 was chosen by convention, with adjustment in
the
case of individual countries - 1492 in the case of America.
--

Well, the Caribbean, anyway! :-))

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 13 sep 2007 17:48:18

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e95b06$0$27409$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189698014.626294.14630@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
I specifically used many different measures of the end of the Middle
Ages: the New Learning, religion, feudal tenures.

And in each case, depending on which measure you use, you can use a
different date, all of which are, ultimately arbitrary.


Which one of the measures you cite would you consider the most definitive?


Isn't it all rather variable geographically, and subjective to boot.
So what's the point?

Surreyman

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 18:06:34

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
mRdGi.50967$rr5.18100@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e95b06$0$27409$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189698014.626294.14630@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
I specifically used many different measures of the end of the Middle
Ages: the New Learning, religion, feudal tenures.

And in each case, depending on which measure you use, you can use a
different date, all of which are, ultimately arbitrary.


Which one of the measures you cite would you consider the most
definitive?


Isn't it all rather variable geographically, and subjective to boot.
So what's the point?

Surreyman

There must be some things in common for judging the end of an era. The
Middle Ages may well have ended in one country and continued in another. How
do we judge?

Normandy

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 13 sep 2007 18:07:59

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
mRdGi.50968$rr5.35328@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0TcGi.29217$ka7.10886@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Vance Mead wrote:
If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.

And the reply was that 1500 was chosen by convention, with adjustment in
the
case of individual countries - 1492 in the case of America.
--

Well, the Caribbean, anyway! :-))

Surreyman

Were the Indians middle age people or was it the Spaniards?

Normandy

Tiglath

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Tiglath » 13 sep 2007 18:24:07

On Sep 13, 1:07 pm, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
mRdGi.50968$rr5.35...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...





"John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0TcGi.29217$ka7.10886@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Vance Mead wrote:
If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.

And the reply was that 1500 was chosen by convention, with adjustment in
the
case of individual countries - 1492 in the case of America.
--

Well, the Caribbean, anyway! :-))

Surreyman

Were the Indians middle age people or was it the Spaniards?

Normandy



Indians went from Stone Age to Middle Age on October 14, 1492,1:20 PM,
experiencing a very short Antiquity when a few of them were used as
rowers in La Pinta, for half a day.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 18:55:31

Black The Red is deliberately obtuse here.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcb8os$2ub$1@registered.motzarella.org...

The current government has a view of history that is, as a matter of
policy, Post Modern. This does rather mean that the idea of teaching
history isn't fashionable.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 18:57:36

Thoughtful...

DSH

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189687931.781209.249270@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle
Ages?...

If feudal tenure, then a good date is 1646, when Parliament abolished
the Court of Wards and Wardship.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 13 sep 2007 19:37:44

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Thoughtful...

DSH

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189687931.781209.249270@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Agreed there is no absolute date but what do we see as the Middle
Ages?...

If feudal tenure, then a good date is 1646, when Parliament abolished
the Court of Wards and Wardship.

"Half-witted" would be a better description...
--
John Briggs

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 01:37:12

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 02:41:42

Hilarious!

Gans The Illiterate Strikes Again!

No, Victoria -- it's NOT a "typo" -- it's an Illiterate Gaffe.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fccm7k$96b$1@reader1.panix.com...

But a friend of mine had one quick peak [sic] at it
(he was on scullery duty in one of the crypts) and
he thinks it was dated Noon, October 16, 1462.

Peter Jason

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Peter Jason » 14 sep 2007 02:43:55

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in
message
news:fccm7k$96b$1@reader1.panix.com...
In soc.history.medieval Ray O'Hara
mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote:

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi
wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch
in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century.
There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first
bombard roared.

Hmm. Now we know when the classical period
ended and
the Middle Ages began. We know because in
all the cities
and towns of the Roman Emperor, criers went
around proclaiming,
very loudly, and in latin, of course, that
Rome had fallen and
that the Middle Ages had begun.

Sadly, when the Middle Ages began,
everybody spoke different
languages so almost nobody got the message
that the Middle
Ages were now gone and Modern Times were
here.

That's why we have so much trouble today in
fixing the end
of the Middle Ages.

Of course, buried in the crypts of the
Vatican, is a copy
of the original notice. It is supressed by
the Church because
of its anti-modern views. But a friend of
mine had one quick
peak at it (he was on scullery duty in one
of the crypts) and
he thinks it was dated Noon, October 16,
1462.

So that's the date the Middle Ages ended.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Can *this* be the date Caxton met Edward IV
and presented him with yet another copy,
printed this time?

I have always said that the middle ages ended
when printing was invented.

Peter Jason

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Peter Jason » 14 sep 2007 02:45:51

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in
message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi
wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch
in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century.
There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first
bombard roared.


They were roaring when Henry V invaded France
during the 100 ys war.

Paul J Gans

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 14 sep 2007 02:59:02

In soc.history.medieval Ray O'Hara <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote:

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.

Hmm. Now we know when the classical period ended and
the Middle Ages began. We know because in all the cities
and towns of the Roman Emperor, criers went around proclaiming,
very loudly, and in latin, of course, that Rome had fallen and
that the Middle Ages had begun.

Sadly, when the Middle Ages began, everybody spoke different
languages so almost nobody got the message that the Middle
Ages were now gone and Modern Times were here.

That's why we have so much trouble today in fixing the end
of the Middle Ages.

Of course, buried in the crypts of the Vatican, is a copy
of the original notice. It is supressed by the Church because
of its anti-modern views. But a friend of mine had one quick
peak at it (he was on scullery duty in one of the crypts) and
he thinks it was dated Noon, October 16, 1462.

So that's the date the Middle Ages ended.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 04:19:49

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:2GlGi.74$H_5.36@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Gans The Illiterate Strikes Again!

No, Victoria -- it's NOT a "typo" -- it's an Illiterate Gaffe.

DSH

your fixation with gans is positively homoerotic.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 04:35:35

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fccm7k$96b$1@reader1.panix.com...
In soc.history.medieval Ray O'Hara <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote:

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.

Hmm. Now we know when the classical period ended and
the Middle Ages began. We know because in all the cities
and towns of the Roman Emperor, criers went around proclaiming,
very loudly, and in latin, of course, that Rome had fallen and
that the Middle Ages had begun.

Sadly, when the Middle Ages began, everybody spoke different
languages so almost nobody got the message that the Middle
Ages were now gone and Modern Times were here.

That's why we have so much trouble today in fixing the end
of the Middle Ages.

Of course, buried in the crypts of the Vatican, is a copy
of the original notice. It is supressed by the Church because
of its anti-modern views. But a friend of mine had one quick
peak at it (he was on scullery duty in one of the crypts) and
he thinks it was dated Noon, October 16, 1462.

So that's the date the Middle Ages ended.

--
--- Paul J. Gans


was chris columbus medievel?


i remember as a kid hearing about the"dark ages" but when i began learning
history i could never find them.

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 14 sep 2007 11:51:20

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.


1346?


(In combat anyway)

That's a touch early for anyone...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 14 sep 2007 11:53:53

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:brudnRh9UPcUnHfbnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@rcn.net...

was chris columbus medievel?

He's a contemporary of Richard III.

The two men may have even met.

(Now there's an idea for a novel)

It is arguable that the Renaissance happened in 1642.

Lots of things happened that year...

i remember as a kid hearing about the"dark ages" but when i began learning
history i could never find them.

That's because you're an idiot...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 12:09:38

William Black wrote:
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:brudnRh9UPcUnHfbnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@rcn.net...


was chris columbus medievel?

He's a contemporary of Richard III.

The two men may have even met.

(Now there's an idea for a novel)

It is arguable that the Renaissance happened in 1642.

Lots of things happened that year...

Charles raising his Standard

Edgehill

Turnham Green...
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 14 sep 2007 12:55:52

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:SZtGi.62847$sI3.5850@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:brudnRh9UPcUnHfbnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@rcn.net...


was chris columbus medievel?

He's a contemporary of Richard III.

The two men may have even met.

(Now there's an idea for a novel)

It is arguable that the Renaissance happened in 1642.

Lots of things happened that year...

Charles raising his Standard

Edgehill

Turnham Green...

Which makes Shakespeare, arguably England's only major Renaissance figure,
a medieval man...

Nope.

Any reasonable system has to have old Will being post medieval and pre
modern.

Mind you, Ben Jonson is almost a 'modern'...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Bryn

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Bryn » 14 sep 2007 14:25:22

In article <fccm7k$96b$1@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
<gans@panix.com> writes
In soc.history.medieval Ray O'Hara <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote:

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.

Hmm. Now we know when the classical period ended and
the Middle Ages began. We know because in all the cities
and towns of the Roman Emperor, criers went around proclaiming,
very loudly, and in latin, of course, that Rome had fallen and
that the Middle Ages had begun.

Sadly, when the Middle Ages began, everybody spoke different
languages so almost nobody got the message that the Middle
Ages were now gone and Modern Times were here.

That's why we have so much trouble today in fixing the end
of the Middle Ages.

Of course, buried in the crypts of the Vatican, is a copy
of the original notice. It is supressed by the Church because
of its anti-modern views. But a friend of mine had one quick
peak at it (he was on scullery duty in one of the crypts) and
he thinks it was dated Noon, October 16, 1462.

So that's the date the Middle Ages ended.

Riiiiiight....

--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 19:16:58

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcdp8e$baa$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:brudnRh9UPcUnHfbnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@rcn.net...


was chris columbus medievel?

He's a contemporary of Richard III.

The two men may have even met.

(Now there's an idea for a novel)

It is arguable that the Renaissance happened in 1642.

Lots of things happened that year...

i remember as a kid hearing about the"dark ages" but when i began
learning
history i could never find them.

That's because you're an idiot...

--
William Black

here in america we have hinesquaters.
in england they have you.
each country has its cross to bear.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 19:18:23

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcdp3l$arm$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.


1346?

(In combat anyway)

That's a touch early for anyone...

--
William Black

gunpowder ended the middle ages.

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 14 sep 2007 19:57:56

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:7pOdnXIa4NXtTXfbnZ2dnUVZ_tGonZ2d@rcn.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcdp3l$arm$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.


1346?

(In combat anyway)

That's a touch early for anyone...

--
William Black

gunpowder ended the middle ages.



But this means that the Hundred Years War is not medieval...

The Black Prince was not a medieval warrior.

Agincourt not a medieval battle.

So...

You're still an idiot Ray...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 14 sep 2007 21:39:33

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
7pOdnXIa4NXtTXfbnZ2dnUVZ_tGonZ2d@rcn.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcdp3l$arm$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.


1346?

(In combat anyway)

That's a touch early for anyone...

--
William Black

gunpowder ended the middle ages.

Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in 1353.Is
that the end?
Normandy
>

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 14 sep 2007 22:25:53

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eaf19e$0$25944$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in 1353.Is
that the end?

So what the hell were they firing at Crecy in 1346?

And what's this in a picture drawn in 1326?

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... dgonne.htm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 15 sep 2007 05:57:27

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcelk2$bgi$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:7pOdnXIa4NXtTXfbnZ2dnUVZ_tGonZ2d@rcn.net...

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcdp3l$arm$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:gfudnXXvqLMkSnTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...

"Vance Mead" <vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:1189690704.442557.189840@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really the expert there. Petrarch in Italy is considered a
Renaissance humanist in the 14th century. There was serfdom in
Russia
until the 19th century.
Vance


the middle ages ended when the first bombard roared.


1346?

(In combat anyway)

That's a touch early for anyone...

--
William Black

gunpowder ended the middle ages.



But this means that the Hundred Years War is not medieval...

The Black Prince was not a medieval warrior.

Agincourt not a medieval battle.

So...

You're still an idiot Ray...

--
William Black


are you that stupid blackguard.
do you think one day it was medieval and then the next day the renaissance?

what am i saying. of course you are that stupid.

Ray O'Hara

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 15 sep 2007 06:07:12

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e96e84$0$25942$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
mRdGi.50968$rr5.35328@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0TcGi.29217$ka7.10886@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Vance Mead wrote:
If you had actually bothered to read the thread you might have seen
that the point was that there is no set time when you can say the
Middle Ages ended. You could choose any date from about 1400 to 1700.
That was the hole point of the discussion.

And the reply was that 1500 was chosen by convention, with adjustment
in
the
case of individual countries - 1492 in the case of America.
--

Well, the Caribbean, anyway! :-))

Surreyman

Were the Indians middle age people or was it the Spaniards?

Normandy


the indians had large urban areas and they kept things clean.
but the conquistidors were modern men.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 15 sep 2007 07:08:36

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news: fceu9d$766$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eaf19e$0$25944$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...


Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in 1353.Is
that the end?

So what the hell were they firing at Crecy in 1346?

And what's this in a picture drawn in 1326?

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... dgonne.htm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The chemical
formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached Europe in completed
form by the late 13th century. . The drawing looks to me more of a mortar
than a cannon.

"There is a doubtful statement, to the effect that cannon were first used in
military encounter at the Battle of Crecy. It must be considered as liable
to great doubt. Our own chroniclers make no allusion to such a circumstance;
neither is it mentioned in the ordinary copies of Froissart, although his
account of the battle is remarkably ample and detailed. It has been surmised
that only some comparatively recent French writers have introduced the
assertion into their narratives, as a sort of excuse for the panic which the
troops of King Philip exhibited on the occasion." 'Chamber's Book of Days'


Normandy

Russell

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Russell » 15 sep 2007 08:25:47

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:08:36 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news: fceu9d$766$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eaf19e$0$25944$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...


Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in 1353.Is
that the end?

So what the hell were they firing at Crecy in 1346?

And what's this in a picture drawn in 1326?

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... dgonne.htm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The chemical
formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached Europe in completed
form by the late 13th century. .


The drawing looks to me more of a mortar
than a cannon.
....


Walter de Millemete's illustration of a "vase cannon" is one you find
all over the place.
It shows a gun mounted horizontally on a trestle with a arrow-like
bolt as a projectile.
It is interesting that another illustration from the same work ("De
Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum") shows the device's
mechanical version, a great crossbow, set up similarly and being
attacked by a defender with a sword.
Probably wrong, but I wonder if Millimete was making a point there.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 15 sep 2007 08:52:33

"Russell" <rmine@iinet.net.au> a écrit dans le message de news:
3s0ne39b7sk9lalvpmqh0p57o6cgj9g678@4ax.com...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:08:36 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr
wrote:


"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news: fceu9d$766$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eaf19e$0$25944$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...


Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in
1353.Is
that the end?

So what the hell were they firing at Crecy in 1346?

And what's this in a picture drawn in 1326?

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... dgonne.htm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The chemical
formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached Europe in
completed
form by the late 13th century. .


The drawing looks to me more of a mortar
than a cannon.
...

Walter de Millemete's illustration of a "vase cannon" is one you find
all over the place.
It shows a gun mounted horizontally on a trestle with a arrow-like
bolt as a projectile.
It is interesting that another illustration from the same work ("De
Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum") shows the device's
mechanical version, a great crossbow, set up similarly and being
attacked by a defender with a sword.
Probably wrong, but I wonder if Millimete was making a point there.

Thank you I'll look into to that


Normandy

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 15 sep 2007 13:01:59

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...


Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The chemical
formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached Europe in
completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing looks to me more of
a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

"There is a doubtful statement, to the effect that cannon were first used
in military encounter at the Battle of Crecy. It must be considered as
liable to great doubt. Our own chroniclers make no allusion to such a
circumstance; neither is it mentioned in the ordinary copies of Froissart,
although his account of the battle is remarkably ample and detailed. It
has been surmised that only some comparatively recent French writers have
introduced the assertion into their narratives, as a sort of excuse for
the panic which the troops of King Philip exhibited on the occasion."
'Chamber's Book of Days'


There is a certain amount of discussion about the devices used at Crecy.

Some people think they were a kind of 'command detonated mine'.

This is the first time I've seen anyone actually doubt that they existed...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 13:56:53

William Black wrote:
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The
chemical formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached
Europe in completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing
looks to me more of a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

Elevation. You angle a mortar up at 45 degrees. No, wait...
--
John Briggs

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 15 sep 2007 14:26:54

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
pEQGi.51240$rr5.23489@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The
chemical formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached
Europe in completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing
looks to me more of a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

Elevation. You angle a mortar up at 45 degrees. No, wait...
--
John Briggs
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells at low
velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic trajectories. It
typically has a barrel length less than 15 times its caliber."

The text with the illustrations at
http://www.geocities.com:80/wolfram_von ... dgonne.htm
says

"Handgonne are one of the earliest forms of firearms. It was not until the
second quarter of the 14th-century that they began to appear in manuscripts
and ordinance list on a regular basis. During their early days, handgonnes
(or handgyns) were not very powerful or physically effective. They appear to
have been more of a psychological warfare tactic. Loud noises bright flashed
and billowing smoke could send even the braves knight fleeing in horror,
especially if it was the first time he had ever witnessed such a display.
There are illuminations from China depicting just such psychological
attacks. Several bulls /yaks have what look like huge bottle rockets tied to
their sides jetting smoke and flames while they stampede towards an
approaching army.

Illuminations show us a progression in which handgonnes seem to have evolved
from arrow throwing cannon. Since the main projectile of the day wee arrows,
this is a logical progression to start from. The image below is taken from
one of the most popular scenes of it's kind."

The illustrations are Chinese with the execption of first that displays a
cannon arrow device.


Does anyone have access to "A Glossary of the Construction Decoration and
Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times Together with Some
Closely Related Subjects" by George Cameron Stone.

Normandy

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 15:41:28

Normandy wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: pEQGi.51240$rr5.23489@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The
chemical formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached
Europe in completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing
looks to me more of a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

Elevation. You angle a mortar up at 45 degrees. No, wait...

"A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells
at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic
trajectories. It typically has a barrel length less than 15 times its
caliber."

That's a modern definition, which is hopelessly irrelevant. The key point,
however, is that it is an indirect-fire weapon.
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 15 sep 2007 16:24:02

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:saSGi.51246$rr5.9109@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Normandy wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: pEQGi.51240$rr5.23489@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The
chemical formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached
Europe in completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing
looks to me more of a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

Elevation. You angle a mortar up at 45 degrees. No, wait...

"A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells
at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic
trajectories. It typically has a barrel length less than 15 times its
caliber."

That's a modern definition, which is hopelessly irrelevant. The key
point, however, is that it is an indirect-fire weapon.

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a medieval (for a
given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the difference between a
fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth century cannon.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 16:34:45

William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:saSGi.51246$rr5.9109@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Normandy wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: pEQGi.51240$rr5.23489@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eb76fe$0$25929$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The
chemical formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached
Europe in completed form by the late 13th century. . The drawing
looks to me more of a mortar than a cannon.

What's the difference?

Elevation. You angle a mortar up at 45 degrees. No, wait...

"A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells
at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic
trajectories. It typically has a barrel length less than 15 times
its caliber."

That's a modern definition, which is hopelessly irrelevant. The key
point, however, is that it is an indirect-fire weapon.

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a medieval
(for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the difference
between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows the
weapon aligned horizontally.
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 15 sep 2007 17:07:19

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a medieval
(for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the difference
between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows the
weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just an ugly
rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing when he saw it (I
rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

It's like the devices at Crecy.

They may have been cannon, or mortars or command detonated mines.

They were all certainly firearms of some sort, and all used gunpowder as a
propellant.

Sometime between Crecy and Castillion they became effective weapons of war
rather than just lethal curiosities.

All the rest is speculation...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 17:32:51

William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a
medieval (for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the
difference between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth
century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows
the weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just an
ugly rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing when he
saw it (I rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

The Royal Armouries reconstruction is cast solid with a small bore.
--
John Briggs

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 15 sep 2007 17:43:22

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news: fch01u$67s$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a medieval
(for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the difference
between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows the
weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just an ugly
rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing when he saw it (I
rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

It's like the devices at Crecy.

They may have been cannon, or mortars or command detonated mines.

They were all certainly firearms of some sort, and all used gunpowder as
a propellant.

Sometime between Crecy and Castillion they became effective weapons of war
rather than just lethal curiosities.

All the rest is speculation...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Don't know how germane this is but I found it at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13593b.htm it seems as if they can not ever
agree the date supposed inventor's life i do agree with Mr Black's Sometime

"A German friar, reputed the inventor of gunpowder and firearms. There has
been much difference of opinion regarding the bearer of this name and his
share in the discovery attributed to him. He was a Franciscan, and is said
to have been born in Freiburg in the first half of the thirteenth century.
He took the name of Berthold in religion, to which was appended the
adjective Schwarz (black), either on account of the colour of his habit or
because he was looked on as being addicted to the black art. It was in the
course of his studies in alchemy that he discovered the explosive properties
of gunpowder which he applied to firearms. A monument was erected to him in
his birthplace in 1853. The history of the invention of gunpowder is wrapped
in obscurity. The Chinese and Arabs are said to have been familiar with
burning mixtures, and as early as A.D. 660 Greek fire was brought to
Constantinople. Roger Bacon (1246-94) mentions the explosive properties of
saltpetre mixtures in his "De secretis operibus artis et naturæ", c. 6,
though he does not lay claim to the discovery. The first to attribute it and
its subsequent application to the friar of Freiburg seems to have been Felix
Hemmelin (1389-1464) of Zurich in his "De nobilitate et rusticitate
dialogus" (c. 1450). He states somewhat vaguely that the discovery was made
within 200 years of the time of his writing. This would apparently make
Berthold a contemporary of Bacon"

Normandy



John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 17:51:36

Normandy wrote:
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message
de news: fch01u$67s$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a
medieval (for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the
difference between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth
century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows
the weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just
an ugly rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing when
he saw it (I rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

It's like the devices at Crecy.

They may have been cannon, or mortars or command detonated mines.

They were all certainly firearms of some sort, and all used
gunpowder as a propellant.

Sometime between Crecy and Castillion they became effective weapons
of war rather than just lethal curiosities.

All the rest is speculation...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough
gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the
beach Time for tea.

Don't know how germane this is but I found it at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13593b.htm it seems as if they can
not ever agree the date supposed inventor's life i do agree with Mr
Black's Sometime
"A German friar, reputed the inventor of gunpowder and firearms.
There has been much difference of opinion regarding the bearer of
this name and his share in the discovery attributed to him. He was a
Franciscan, and is said to have been born in Freiburg in the first
half of the thirteenth century. He took the name of Berthold in
religion, to which was appended the adjective Schwarz (black), either
on account of the colour of his habit or because he was looked on as
being addicted to the black art. It was in the course of his studies
in alchemy that he discovered the explosive properties of gunpowder
which he applied to firearms. A monument was erected to him in his
birthplace in 1853. The history of the invention of gunpowder is
wrapped in obscurity. The Chinese and Arabs are said to have been
familiar with burning mixtures, and as early as A.D. 660 Greek fire
was brought to Constantinople. Roger Bacon (1246-94) mentions the
explosive properties of saltpetre mixtures in his "De secretis
operibus artis et naturæ", c. 6, though he does not lay claim to the
discovery. The first to attribute it and its subsequent application
to the friar of Freiburg seems to have been Felix Hemmelin
(1389-1464) of Zurich in his "De nobilitate et rusticitate dialogus"
(c. 1450). He states somewhat vaguely that the discovery was made
within 200 years of the time of his writing. This would apparently
make Berthold a contemporary of Bacon"

While you're Googling at random, look up "fable", "myth" and "legend".
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 15 sep 2007 18:32:50

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:TOTGi.37010$mZ5.32845@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a
medieval (for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the
difference between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth
century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows
the weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just an
ugly rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing when he
saw it (I rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

The Royal Armouries reconstruction is cast solid with a small bore.

Reproduction cannon made in recent years for the Royal Armouries have
certain compromises made because they like to fire them.

The main one is usually a modern steel liner inside the piece. This is
proofed to modern standards.

Certainly the seventeenth century saker and the fifteenth century breach
loader have them.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

John Briggs

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av John Briggs » 15 sep 2007 19:49:26

William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:TOTGi.37010$mZ5.32845@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a
medieval (for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the
difference between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth
century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows
the weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just
an ugly rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing
when he saw it (I rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

The Royal Armouries reconstruction is cast solid with a small bore.

Reproduction cannon made in recent years for the Royal Armouries have
certain compromises made because they like to fire them.

The main one is usually a modern steel liner inside the piece. This
is proofed to modern standards.

Certainly the seventeenth century saker and the fifteenth century
breach loader have them.

I don't think that's true of the pieces made for research purposes - but I
can ask next time I'm at Fort Nelson.
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av William Black » 15 sep 2007 21:45:37

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:WOVGi.679$aN2.456@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:TOTGi.37010$mZ5.32845@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pYSGi.51254$rr5.7175@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:

Now, could one of you erudite gentlemen please tell me how a
medieval (for a given value of medieval) chronicler can tell the
difference between a fourteenth century mortar and a fourteenth
century cannon.

The argument is about the Walter de Milamete *drawing* which shows
the weapon aligned horizontally.

We don't know the circumstance of his drawing it.

It may be from life, it may be from a description, it may be just
an ugly rumour, it may have been in the workshop for servicing
when he saw it (I rather like that one myself).

We don't know.

The Royal Armouries reconstruction is cast solid with a small bore.

Reproduction cannon made in recent years for the Royal Armouries have
certain compromises made because they like to fire them.

The main one is usually a modern steel liner inside the piece. This
is proofed to modern standards.

Certainly the seventeenth century saker and the fifteenth century
breach loader have them.

I don't think that's true of the pieces made for research purposes - but I
can ask next time I'm at Fort Nelson.

They are.

I've fired the two I mentioned.

They might look real but they're not.

Outside they're exact, inside they're safe to fire.

You won't get a 'built up' gun in through the proof house door these days,
never mind get it stamped as safe to fire.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Normandy

Re: Gen Petraeus

Legg inn av Normandy » 16 sep 2007 08:06:30

"Russell" <rmine@iinet.net.au> a écrit dans le message de news:
oh3pe396eorprm6kttorgn2fu4lmn4i0kn@4ax.com...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:52:33 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr
wrote:


"Russell" <rmine@iinet.net.au> a écrit dans le message de news:
3s0ne39b7sk9lalvpmqh0p57o6cgj9g678@4ax.com...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:08:36 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr
wrote:


"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news: fceu9d$766$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46eaf19e$0$25944$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...


Berthold Schwarz invented the first European gunpowder cannon in
1353.Is
that the end?

So what the hell were they firing at Crecy in 1346?

And what's this in a picture drawn in 1326?

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... dgonne.htm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough
gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Roger Bacon before 1292 listed the ingredients of gunpowder The chemical
formula for gunpowder and the refinement process reached Europe in
completed
form by the late 13th century. .


The drawing looks to me more of a mortar
than a cannon.
...

Walter de Millemete's illustration of a "vase cannon" is one you find
all over the place.
It shows a gun mounted horizontally on a trestle with a arrow-like
bolt as a projectile.
It is interesting that another illustration from the same work ("De
Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum") shows the device's
mechanical version, a great crossbow, set up similarly and being
attacked by a defender with a sword.
Probably wrong, but I wonder if Millimete was making a point there.

Thank you I'll look into to that

Normandy



A pretty close match to the Millimete "vase" gun barrel is the Loshult
gun. Some recent (ie cast ~ 2000-2001) replicas have been used in
trials of projectiles and historic gunpowder recipes.
They did fire the beast as depicted in Milliemete's work, but for
range comparisons they removed the trestle's rear legs to get a higher
elevation.
eg http://www.middelaldercentret.dk/pdf/gunpowder1.pdf

There are other reports numbered 2 to 4 also at the site.

Thank you very interesting


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