Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
W. David Samuelsen
Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
Don't make fun or insult on this one....
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
David Samuelsen
Most often, many listed #2.
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
David Samuelsen
Most often, many listed #2.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
Hilarious!
Funniest post I've seen in weeks.
Your chain has been pulled -- repeatedly.
DSH
"W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2091.1189448858.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Funniest post I've seen in weeks.
Your chain has been pulled -- repeatedly.
DSH
"W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2091.1189448858.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Don't make fun or insult on this one....
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
David Samuelsen
Most often, many listed #2.
-
Séimí mac Liam
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
"W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com> wrote in
news:mailman.2091.1189448858.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:
What sources are you using?
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
news:mailman.2091.1189448858.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:
Don't make fun or insult on this one....
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
David Samuelsen
Most often, many listed #2.
What sources are you using?
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 10, 7:27 pm, "W. David Samuelsen" <d...@sampubco.com>
None of those people ever existed.
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
None of those people ever existed.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
But he needs it IN A HURRY! <G>
DSH
"Hovite" <paulvheath@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189450275.067654.296440@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
DSH
"Hovite" <paulvheath@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189450275.067654.296440@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 10, 7:27 pm, "W. David Samuelsen" <d...@sampubco.com
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
None of those people ever existed.
-
taf
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 10, 11:27 am, "W. David Samuelsen" <d...@sampubco.com> wrote:
As others have pointed out, there is no surviving evidence that any of
them ever existed. These are all invented individuals.
taf
Don't make fun or insult on this one....
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
As others have pointed out, there is no surviving evidence that any of
them ever existed. These are all invented individuals.
taf
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 10, 7:27 pm, "W. David Samuelsen" <d...@sampubco.com>
The ancient name for Monmouth was Blestium.
Siluria is a modern invention; it does not occur in any source.
The people were the Silures, who are mentioned in several sources,
including Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy.
Their capital was Venta Silurum, now Caerwent, in Gwent (previously
Monmouthshire).
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
The ancient name for Monmouth was Blestium.
Siluria is a modern invention; it does not occur in any source.
The people were the Silures, who are mentioned in several sources,
including Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy.
Their capital was Venta Silurum, now Caerwent, in Gwent (previously
Monmouthshire).
-
a.spencer3
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:i6gFi.94$DU5.385@eagle.america.net...
Siluria is in Alabama.
Surreyman
news:i6gFi.94$DU5.385@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!
Funniest post I've seen in weeks.
Your chain has been pulled -- repeatedly.
DSH
"W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2091.1189448858.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Don't make fun or insult on this one....
I see 3 different husbands for Anna of Arimathea, daughter of Joseph of
Arimathea now.
one is 3 generations apart.
1. Beli Mawr, "King" of the Britons
bef 162 BC, died 72 BC
2. Brian Boru ap Ly Llediaith
(Bran Fendigaid "the blesed" Llediaith ap Llyr, King of Siluria)
born Siluria (now Monmouth), Wales
(grandson of #1 Beli Mawr)
and now this...
3. Manogan, Celtic King of the Druids
(father of Beli Mawr, son of Eneid
one entry I found, even showed Anna married to #2 then #1
Can anyone clear this one up in an hurry?
David Samuelsen
Most often, many listed #2.
Siluria is in Alabama.
Surreyman
-
Gjest
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
There was no such person as Anna of Arimathea, however, according to
the Byzantine historian Sophronius of Jerusalem one of Jesus' (so-
called) "sisters" was an Anne (Blinzler, 1976, pp 36-8).
The genealogy of The Holy Family appears in "Matthew" and "Luke" and
bits and pieces in the writings of early church fathers, and
historians. The genealogy of The Holy Family has always been known by
the Jews, and appears in early Jewish literature.
The fact that Jesus had siblings needed to be explained as the
doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity became widespread and
eventually universally accepted as true. They had to be harmonized
with the dogma, so brothers and sisters became cousins, step-siblings,
etc.
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus [who was himself an exile in Rome], who eventually
returned to Britain with her and had issue. This Belus (c. AD 35/50)
is not to be confused with his ancestor Beli Mawr, who sacked Rome in
386BC in the "First Celtic Storm". See the "Beli & Anne Pedigree" in
Bartrum's "Early Genealogical Tracts".
pip phillips
the Byzantine historian Sophronius of Jerusalem one of Jesus' (so-
called) "sisters" was an Anne (Blinzler, 1976, pp 36-8).
The genealogy of The Holy Family appears in "Matthew" and "Luke" and
bits and pieces in the writings of early church fathers, and
historians. The genealogy of The Holy Family has always been known by
the Jews, and appears in early Jewish literature.
The fact that Jesus had siblings needed to be explained as the
doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity became widespread and
eventually universally accepted as true. They had to be harmonized
with the dogma, so brothers and sisters became cousins, step-siblings,
etc.
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus [who was himself an exile in Rome], who eventually
returned to Britain with her and had issue. This Belus (c. AD 35/50)
is not to be confused with his ancestor Beli Mawr, who sacked Rome in
386BC in the "First Celtic Storm". See the "Beli & Anne Pedigree" in
Bartrum's "Early Genealogical Tracts".
pip phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
Will wrote
you are not very well read, are you?; or at least have never research
this subject
pip
The above is not legend but rather fantasy. Perhaps anyone at all listening would care to try to find any of this related in any credible history book modern or ancient.
------------------------------------------------------------
you are not very well read, are you?; or at least have never research
this subject
pip
-
taf
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 11, 3:29 pm, PIPPHILLIP...@AOL.com wrote:
Perhaps you could cite some primary data that suggests otherwise, but
I don't know that there is a single thing in this paragraph that
represents solid history (e.g. recorded less than, say, 500 years
after the events being reported). As to Bartrum, he was compiling
pedigrees that appear in 15th century (and later) manuscripts, not
reporting authentic history, and he makes this distinction clear.
taf
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus [who was himself an exile in Rome], who eventually
returned to Britain with her and had issue. This Belus (c. AD 35/50)
is not to be confused with his ancestor Beli Mawr, who sacked Rome in
386BC in the "First Celtic Storm". See the "Beli & Anne Pedigree" in
Bartrum's "Early Genealogical Tracts".
Perhaps you could cite some primary data that suggests otherwise, but
I don't know that there is a single thing in this paragraph that
represents solid history (e.g. recorded less than, say, 500 years
after the events being reported). As to Bartrum, he was compiling
pedigrees that appear in 15th century (and later) manuscripts, not
reporting authentic history, and he makes this distinction clear.
taf
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 11, 6:29 pm, PIPPHILLIP...@AOL.com wrote:
No persons referred to above are mentioned in near-contemporary, non-
biblical sources, except Jesus (Joseph._AJ_28.3). Four brothers and
at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible, as well as Joseph of
Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism as a fictional
character invented as a plot device [J. D. Crossan,_Jesus_9 (San
Francisco, 1994), 156-8;_The Oxford Companion to the Bible_(New York,
1993), s.v. "Joseph of Arimathea"]. Rabanus Maurus, a ninth-century
German monk, is the earliest writer to connect Joseph with Britain.
Christopher Ingham
There was no such person as Anna of Arimathea, however, according
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus [who was himself an exile in Rome], who eventually
returned to Britain with her and had issue. This Belus (c. AD 35/50)
is not to be confused with his ancestor Beli Mawr, who sacked Rome in
386BC in the "First Celtic Storm". See the "Beli & Anne Pedigree" in
Bartrum's "Early Genealogical Tracts".
No persons referred to above are mentioned in near-contemporary, non-
biblical sources, except Jesus (Joseph._AJ_28.3). Four brothers and
at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible, as well as Joseph of
Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism as a fictional
character invented as a plot device [J. D. Crossan,_Jesus_9 (San
Francisco, 1994), 156-8;_The Oxford Companion to the Bible_(New York,
1993), s.v. "Joseph of Arimathea"]. Rabanus Maurus, a ninth-century
German monk, is the earliest writer to connect Joseph with Britain.
Christopher Ingham
-
Gjest
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 12, 1:24?pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
?Four brothers and at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible,
as well as Joseph of Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism
as a fictional
maybe i am not reading your post right, are you saying that Joseph of
Arimathea was a fictional character ???
pip
wrote:
?Four brothers and at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible,
as well as Joseph of Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism
as a fictional
character invented as a plot device [J. D. Crossan,_Jesus_9 (San
Francisco, 1994), 156-8;_The Oxford Companion to the Bible_(New York,
1993), s.v. "Joseph of Arimathea"].
------------------------------------------------------------------
maybe i am not reading your post right, are you saying that Joseph of
Arimathea was a fictional character ???
pip
-
wjhonson
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 12, 10:24 am, Christopher Ingham
<christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
A small caveat. Epiphanius does mention by name two sisters of Jesus,
calling them the daughters of Joseph by his "first wife" : Mary and
Salome. In another work he has Anne and Salome, but editors have
wondered if the word there might be a scribal error and thus would
possibly erase Anne.
Sophronius who is probably dependent on Epiphanius merges these to
have Anne, Mary and Salome.
As to "... British prince Belus, the son of the British ex-king
Dubnovellus ...", I wonder if this does not refer to the same
individuals that Geoffrey of Monmouth calls : Belinus, King of
Britian, son of Dunwallo [Molmutius], King of Cornwall then of all
Britain who reigned for forty years.
This Belius is further given a son "Gurgiunt Brabtruc" who became in
turn King of Britain.
There is nothing in this part of the history that allows me to give a
chronology, but IF there is indeed *some* legend that Jesus and
Dunwallo or Belinus were contemporaries that would certainly help the
situation. Of course that legend should be properly cited and
quoted. But it's certainly not in Geoffrey's work, so I don't know
from where it comes.
Will Johnson
<christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sep 11, 6:29 pm, PIPPHILLIP...@AOL.com wrote:
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus ...
No persons referred to above are mentioned in near-contemporary, non-
biblical sources, except Jesus (Joseph._AJ_28.3). Four brothers and
at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible, as well as Joseph of
Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism as a fictional
character invented as a plot device [J. D. Crossan,_Jesus_9 (San
Francisco, 1994), 156-8;_The Oxford Companion to the Bible_(New York,
1993), s.v. "Joseph of Arimathea"]. Rabanus Maurus, a ninth-century
German monk, is the earliest writer to connect Joseph with Britain.
Christopher Ingham
A small caveat. Epiphanius does mention by name two sisters of Jesus,
calling them the daughters of Joseph by his "first wife" : Mary and
Salome. In another work he has Anne and Salome, but editors have
wondered if the word there might be a scribal error and thus would
possibly erase Anne.
Sophronius who is probably dependent on Epiphanius merges these to
have Anne, Mary and Salome.
As to "... British prince Belus, the son of the British ex-king
Dubnovellus ...", I wonder if this does not refer to the same
individuals that Geoffrey of Monmouth calls : Belinus, King of
Britian, son of Dunwallo [Molmutius], King of Cornwall then of all
Britain who reigned for forty years.
This Belius is further given a son "Gurgiunt Brabtruc" who became in
turn King of Britain.
There is nothing in this part of the history that allows me to give a
chronology, but IF there is indeed *some* legend that Jesus and
Dunwallo or Belinus were contemporaries that would certainly help the
situation. Of course that legend should be properly cited and
quoted. But it's certainly not in Geoffrey's work, so I don't know
from where it comes.
Will Johnson
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 12:19 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
These people are unknown to history, but they could be corruptions of
Cunobelinus and Dubnovellaunos, who were real kings.
They were not, of course, Kings of Britain.
Dubnovellaunos was King of the Trinovantes, from about 15 BC to about
10 AD.
Cunobelinos was King of the Catulvellauni, from about 10 to about 40
AD. His coins indicate that he successfully absorbed the Trinovantes,
as some were minted at Camulodunum. Others state his parentage:
Tasciovani f.
In a sense, therefore, Cunobelinos was the successor of
Dubnovellaunos, but they came from different tribes and were members
of different dynasties.
Cunobelinos could also be the origin of the Beli myth, as on some
coins the king's name is abbreviated and split between two panels:
CVNO
BELI
But Beli is generally thought to be derived from the god Belinos.
As to "... British prince Belus, the son of the British ex-king
Dubnovellus ...", I wonder if this does not refer to the same
individuals that Geoffrey of Monmouth calls : Belinus, King of
Britian, son of Dunwallo [Molmutius], King of Cornwall then of all
Britain who reigned for forty years.
These people are unknown to history, but they could be corruptions of
Cunobelinus and Dubnovellaunos, who were real kings.
They were not, of course, Kings of Britain.
Dubnovellaunos was King of the Trinovantes, from about 15 BC to about
10 AD.
Cunobelinos was King of the Catulvellauni, from about 10 to about 40
AD. His coins indicate that he successfully absorbed the Trinovantes,
as some were minted at Camulodunum. Others state his parentage:
Tasciovani f.
In a sense, therefore, Cunobelinos was the successor of
Dubnovellaunos, but they came from different tribes and were members
of different dynasties.
Cunobelinos could also be the origin of the Beli myth, as on some
coins the king's name is abbreviated and split between two panels:
CVNO
BELI
But Beli is generally thought to be derived from the god Belinos.
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 10:44 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote in an era when it was trendy to imitate
the_Aeneid_, and to trace particular groups of peoples (in his case,
the Celts) back to the Trojans, all the while showing how these
peoples merited the favor of the gods due to their superior virtue
over all others. Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
With Epiphanius, writing centuries after the events described, one has
to fall back on the refrain, "What are his sources?" And as to the
kings, whose existence is only documented in a smattering of
references in Roman histories, make of it what you will.
Christopher Ingham
On Sep 14, 12:19 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
As to "... British prince Belus, the son of the British ex-king
Dubnovellus ...", I wonder if this does not refer to the same
individuals that Geoffrey of Monmouth calls : Belinus, King of
Britian, son of Dunwallo [Molmutius], King of Cornwall then of all
Britain who reigned for forty years.
These people are unknown to history, but they could be corruptions of
Cunobelinus and Dubnovellaunos, who were real kings.
They were not, of course, Kings of Britain.
Dubnovellaunos was King of the Trinovantes, from about 15 BC to about
10 AD.
Cunobelinos was King of the Catulvellauni, from about 10 to about 40
AD. His coins indicate that he successfully absorbed the Trinovantes,
as some were minted at Camulodunum. Others state his parentage:
Tasciovani f.
In a sense, therefore, Cunobelinos was the successor of
Dubnovellaunos, but they came from different tribes and were members
of different dynasties.
Cunobelinos could also be the origin of the Beli myth, as on some
coins the king's name is abbreviated and split between two panels:
BELI> CVNO
But Beli is generally thought to be derived from the god Belinos.
Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote in an era when it was trendy to imitate
the_Aeneid_, and to trace particular groups of peoples (in his case,
the Celts) back to the Trojans, all the while showing how these
peoples merited the favor of the gods due to their superior virtue
over all others. Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
With Epiphanius, writing centuries after the events described, one has
to fall back on the refrain, "What are his sources?" And as to the
kings, whose existence is only documented in a smattering of
references in Roman histories, make of it what you will.
Christopher Ingham
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 12, 6:24 pm, Christopher Ingham
"This note is either inauthentic or so extravagantly interpolated that
it can no longer be presented as credible evidence"
A. Schweitzer: "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", page 359.
He cited the the passage as "Antt. 18, 3, 3" so I'm not entirely sure
this is the same reference. Anyway, the paragraph he quoted is very
obviously a later insertion by a Christian.
Besides Josephus, the earliest sources are Tacitus, Suetonius, and
Pliny, all from about 100 AD. They are all somewhat hostile, and
therefore their comments are more likely to be genuine.
No persons referred to above are mentioned in near-contemporary, non-
biblical sources, except Jesus (Joseph._AJ_28.3).
"This note is either inauthentic or so extravagantly interpolated that
it can no longer be presented as credible evidence"
A. Schweitzer: "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", page 359.
He cited the the passage as "Antt. 18, 3, 3" so I'm not entirely sure
this is the same reference. Anyway, the paragraph he quoted is very
obviously a later insertion by a Christian.
Besides Josephus, the earliest sources are Tacitus, Suetonius, and
Pliny, all from about 100 AD. They are all somewhat hostile, and
therefore their comments are more likely to be genuine.
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 2:31 pm, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, the passage is 18.3.3 from_Antiquities_. The authenticity of the
passage is under question but not outright dismissed, except for the
latter part containing the_testimonium_, "He was the messiah."
Josephus, living in Rome and writing to please a Roman audience,
certainly would not have made such a statement.
Christopher Ingham
On Sep 12, 6:24 pm, Christopher Ingham
No persons referred to above are mentioned in near-contemporary, non-
biblical sources, except Jesus (Joseph._AJ_28.3).
"This note is either inauthentic or so extravagantly interpolated that
it can no longer be presented as credible evidence"
A. Schweitzer: "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", page 359.
He cited the the passage as "Antt. 18, 3, 3" so I'm not entirely sure
this is the same reference. Anyway, the paragraph he quoted is very
obviously a later insertion by a Christian.
Besides Josephus, the earliest sources are Tacitus, Suetonius, and
Pliny, all from about 100 AD. They are all somewhat hostile, and
therefore their comments are more likely to be genuine.
Yes, the passage is 18.3.3 from_Antiquities_. The authenticity of the
passage is under question but not outright dismissed, except for the
latter part containing the_testimonium_, "He was the messiah."
Josephus, living in Rome and writing to please a Roman audience,
certainly would not have made such a statement.
Christopher Ingham
-
taf
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 11:31 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Then this group has been quite genuine, of late.
taf
They are all somewhat hostile, and
therefore their comments are more likely to be genuine.
Then this group has been quite genuine, of late.
taf
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 7:13 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Although the ancient sources do not explicitly state the date, the
marriage of Claudius to his third wife, his third cousin Messalina, an
adolescent, is fixed at between AD 38 and 40 (B.
Levick,_Claudius_[New Haven, 1990], 55;_OCD_, 3rd rev. ed. [2003],
s.v. "Valeria Messal[l]ina" [J. P. V. D. Balsdon and M. T. Griffin]).
Messalina forestalled her own imminent execution in 48 by committing
suicide. Her children, Claudia Octavia and Britannicus, were executed
by Nero, stepson of Claudius by his forth wife, as was the only other
surviving child of Claudius, Claudia Antonia. Her marriage is closely
covered by Tacitus (e.g., _Ann._11.29-32, 34-8), among others, and she
is definitely not the mother of any Genuissa.
Keep plugging away, though, Will; I'm sure that one day you will at
last establish a definitive history of primeval Britain.
Christopher Ingham
The son of Kymbelinus is given as Arviragus who fought against Claudius' armies [which occurred in 43 AD]. This Arviragus is given there as marrying Claudius daughter, named Genuissa.
This is fable by the way, but I'm interested only to see if the chronology can hold together. This Genuissa has to be the daughter of Valeria Messalina. I do not have a source describing *exactly* when Claudius married Valeria and hopefully someone has a very good primary source for this, as plenty of secondary sources can't seem to agree.
We do know it must have been sometime between 31 AD and 40 AD. Valeria was stabbed to death, on the orders of Claudius in 48AD. So we have a pretty narrow window for Genuissa's birth which is good.
Their son is given as Marius, King of Britain the father of Coillus "brought up at Rome" (probably as a hostage?)
Marius is the father of "Old King Cole" aka Coillus....
Although the ancient sources do not explicitly state the date, the
marriage of Claudius to his third wife, his third cousin Messalina, an
adolescent, is fixed at between AD 38 and 40 (B.
Levick,_Claudius_[New Haven, 1990], 55;_OCD_, 3rd rev. ed. [2003],
s.v. "Valeria Messal[l]ina" [J. P. V. D. Balsdon and M. T. Griffin]).
Messalina forestalled her own imminent execution in 48 by committing
suicide. Her children, Claudia Octavia and Britannicus, were executed
by Nero, stepson of Claudius by his forth wife, as was the only other
surviving child of Claudius, Claudia Antonia. Her marriage is closely
covered by Tacitus (e.g., _Ann._11.29-32, 34-8), among others, and she
is definitely not the mother of any Genuissa.
Keep plugging away, though, Will; I'm sure that one day you will at
last establish a definitive history of primeval Britain.
Christopher Ingham
-
Volucris
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
Christopher,
As I'm rereading a book that I found on the bookshelve, that mentions
Geoffrey of Monmouth and his famous work, your remark drew my
attention.
Who are you talking about, when did they and in what work?
Hans Vogels
On 14 sep, 19:47, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
As I'm rereading a book that I found on the bookshelve, that mentions
Geoffrey of Monmouth and his famous work, your remark drew my
attention.
Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
Who are you talking about, when did they and in what work?
Hans Vogels
On 14 sep, 19:47, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:44 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
But Beli is generally thought to be derived from the god Belinos.
Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote in an era when it was trendy to imitate
the_Aeneid_, and to trace particular groups of peoples (in his case,
the Celts) back to the Trojans, all the while showing how these
peoples merited the favor of the gods due to their superior virtue
over all others. Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
[snip]
Christopher Ingham
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 15, 6:42 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
I confess that I relied on reference books for this assessment. Here
are some comments:
"_The Historia regum Britanniae_, published sometime between 1135 and
1139, was one of the most popular books of the Middle Ages, although
its historical value is almost nil....Denounced from the first by
sober historians, Geoffrey's fictional history nevertheless had an
enormous influence on later chroniclers."
[_Encyclopaedia Britannica_, 15th ed., s.v. "Geoffrey of Monmouth."]
"The_Historia_ was attacked as a worthless historical account but
became very popular and survived even the harshest denunciations by
scholars."
[M. Bunson,_Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages_(New York, 1995), s.v.
"Geoffrey of Monmouth."]
"Geoffrey's_History_is, on the last analysis, a prose romance and...a
palpable excursion in fiction....[I]n the words of William of
Newburgh, the entire work is a tissue of 'impudent and shameless
lies.'"
[_The Cambridge History of English and American Literature in Eighteen
Volumes_, vol. 1 (1907), 9.9, "Geoffrey of Monmouth," consulted
online.]
http://www.bartleby.com/211/0909.html
I read other unflattering quotations from Geoffrey's contemporaries,
but I can't recall at this moment in which texts they are located.
To be fair, Geoffrey did did rely on some Celtic documents, now lost,
and he probably recorded much current lore.
Christopher Ingham
Christopher,
As I'm rereading a book that I found on the bookshelve, that mentions
Geoffrey of Monmouth and his famous work, your remark drew my
attention.
Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
Who are you talking about, when did they and in what work?
Hans Vogels
On 14 sep, 19:47, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net
wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:44 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
But Beli is generally thought to be derived from the god Belinos.
Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote in an era when it was trendy to imitate
the_Aeneid_, and to trace particular groups of peoples (in his case,
the Celts) back to the Trojans, all the while showing how these
peoples merited the favor of the gods due to their superior virtue
over all others. Even his contemporaries, living in an age when
scholarly historiographic standards were rather low, denounced his
work as a "tissue of lies."
[snip]
Christopher Ingham- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I confess that I relied on reference books for this assessment. Here
are some comments:
"_The Historia regum Britanniae_, published sometime between 1135 and
1139, was one of the most popular books of the Middle Ages, although
its historical value is almost nil....Denounced from the first by
sober historians, Geoffrey's fictional history nevertheless had an
enormous influence on later chroniclers."
[_Encyclopaedia Britannica_, 15th ed., s.v. "Geoffrey of Monmouth."]
"The_Historia_ was attacked as a worthless historical account but
became very popular and survived even the harshest denunciations by
scholars."
[M. Bunson,_Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages_(New York, 1995), s.v.
"Geoffrey of Monmouth."]
"Geoffrey's_History_is, on the last analysis, a prose romance and...a
palpable excursion in fiction....[I]n the words of William of
Newburgh, the entire work is a tissue of 'impudent and shameless
lies.'"
[_The Cambridge History of English and American Literature in Eighteen
Volumes_, vol. 1 (1907), 9.9, "Geoffrey of Monmouth," consulted
online.]
http://www.bartleby.com/211/0909.html
I read other unflattering quotations from Geoffrey's contemporaries,
but I can't recall at this moment in which texts they are located.
To be fair, Geoffrey did did rely on some Celtic documents, now lost,
and he probably recorded much current lore.
Christopher Ingham
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 15, 11:42 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Anyone with any knowledge of history would known that what Geoffrey
wrote was rubbish. Here is just one example (others are more graphic):
"It is quite clear that everything this man wrote about Arthur and his
successors, or indeed about his predecessors from Vortigern onwards,
was made up, partly by himself and partly by others, either from an
inordinate love of lying, or for the sake of pleasing the Britons."
(William of Newburgh, about 1190)
Who are you talking about, when did they and in what work?
Anyone with any knowledge of history would known that what Geoffrey
wrote was rubbish. Here is just one example (others are more graphic):
"It is quite clear that everything this man wrote about Arthur and his
successors, or indeed about his predecessors from Vortigern onwards,
was made up, partly by himself and partly by others, either from an
inordinate love of lying, or for the sake of pleasing the Britons."
(William of Newburgh, about 1190)
-
Hovite
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 15, 12:13 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Yes.
Geoffrey didn't use chronology. You cannot apply dates to his fiction.
Tasciovanos was King of the Catuvellauni (Hertfordshire) from about 20
BC to 10 AD. He was indeed father of Cunobelinos.
Cornwall was the home of the Cornovii. Their god was the horned one,
Cernunnos. There were other Cornovii in Cheshire and Caithness.
Lud is an invention to explain London. According to Geoffrey, Lud
rebuilt Trinovantum (New Troy) and renamed it after himself. But
London was never called Trinovantum, which is merely the genitive case
of Trinovantes, a people living in Essex, who did not come from Troy.
Lud is rather obviously not a British personal name, as the following
sequence shows:
Cassivellaunos
Tasciovanos
Cunobelinos
Caratacos
Claudius did not have a genuine daughter called Genuissa. His children
were: Claudius Drusus (died young), Claudia (not recognized), Antonia,
Octavia, and Britannicus.
The historical sons of Cunobelinos who fought Claudius were Caratacos
and Togodumnos.
Am I right in thinking this was Shakespeare's Cymbeline aka Kymbelinus ?
Yes.
If so, he is also mentioned by Geoffrey, but as a different person. He states in particular that this Kymbelinus was "brought up by Augustus Caesar" which at least allows us a chronological peg at this point in his narrative.
Geoffrey didn't use chronology. You cannot apply dates to his fiction.
He gives the father of this Kymbelinus as Tenuantis (aka Tasciovan), Duke of Cornwall and later King of all Britain, who must have lived per my framework from say 90/70 BC until at leat 50 BC
Tasciovanos was King of the Catuvellauni (Hertfordshire) from about 20
BC to 10 AD. He was indeed father of Cunobelinos.
Cornwall was the home of the Cornovii. Their god was the horned one,
Cernunnos. There were other Cornovii in Cheshire and Caithness.
The father of this Tasciovan being King Lud
Lud is an invention to explain London. According to Geoffrey, Lud
rebuilt Trinovantum (New Troy) and renamed it after himself. But
London was never called Trinovantum, which is merely the genitive case
of Trinovantes, a people living in Essex, who did not come from Troy.
Lud is rather obviously not a British personal name, as the following
sequence shows:
Cassivellaunos
Tasciovanos
Cunobelinos
Caratacos
The son of Kymbelinus is given as Arviragus who fought against Claudius' armies [which occurred in 43 AD]. This Arviragus is given there as marrying Claudius daughter, named Genuissa.
Claudius did not have a genuine daughter called Genuissa. His children
were: Claudius Drusus (died young), Claudia (not recognized), Antonia,
Octavia, and Britannicus.
The historical sons of Cunobelinos who fought Claudius were Caratacos
and Togodumnos.
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 14, 7:13 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Tasciovanus was the son of Cassivelanus, kings of the Catuvellauni.
Caesar reinstated the heir of the kingdom of the Trinovantes, which
had been overcome by the Catuvellauni, and forbade Tasciovanus from
further harassing the Trinovantes (Caes._Bel Gall._5.18-22).
The continuing expansion of the Catuvellauni under Tasciovanus caused
Timcommius and Dumnobellanus, kings of the Atrebates and the Kentish
tribes respectively, to seek refuge in Rome. Augustus says,
"Ad mé supplices confug(_erunt_) regés Parthorum Tíida(_tes et
postea_) Phrát-(_es_) regis Phrati(_s filius_); § Medorum
(_Artavasdes_;_Adiabenorum
A_)rtaxa[res; § Britann(o)rum Dumnobellau(_nus_) et
Tim......." ["Kings of the Parthians, Tiridates, and later Phrates,
took refuge with me as suppliants; of the Medes, Artavasdes; of the
Adiabeni, Artaxares; of the Britains, Dumnobellaunus, and
Tim......." [_Res gestae divi Augustae_5.32, trans. F. W. Shipley
(Loeb). The lacunae in the Latin text is supplemented in the English
translation by the Greek version of the_Res gestae_from the_Monumentum
Ancyranum_(which I am not reproducing).]
Cunobelinus (d._c_.AD 40), the son of Tasciovanus, reigned for about
thirty or forty years. It was the threat of the continuing expansion
of the Catevellauni kingdom which served as a pretext for the invasion
of Britain by Claudius in 43. Dio Cassius, who is the only source on
this war (60.19-23), names Caratacus and Togodumnus as sons of
Cunobelinus.
Christopher Ingham
In a message dated 09/14/07 07:45:29 Pacific Standard Time, paulvhe...@gmail.com writes:
Cunobelinos was King of the Catulvellauni, from about 10 to about 40
AD.
--------------------
Am I right in thinking this was Shakespeare's Cymbeline aka Kymbelinus ?
If so, he is also mentioned by Geoffrey, but as a different person. He states in particular that this Kymbelinus was "brought up by Augustus Caesar" which at least allows us a chronological peg at this point in his narrative.
He gives the father of this Kymbelinus as Tenuantis (aka Tasciovan), Duke of Cornwall and later King of all Britain, who must have lived per my framework from say 90/70 BC until at leat 50 BC
The father of this Tasciovan being King Lud
The son of Kymbelinus is given as Arviragus who fought against Claudius' armies....
Tasciovanus was the son of Cassivelanus, kings of the Catuvellauni.
Caesar reinstated the heir of the kingdom of the Trinovantes, which
had been overcome by the Catuvellauni, and forbade Tasciovanus from
further harassing the Trinovantes (Caes._Bel Gall._5.18-22).
The continuing expansion of the Catuvellauni under Tasciovanus caused
Timcommius and Dumnobellanus, kings of the Atrebates and the Kentish
tribes respectively, to seek refuge in Rome. Augustus says,
"Ad mé supplices confug(_erunt_) regés Parthorum Tíida(_tes et
postea_) Phrát-(_es_) regis Phrati(_s filius_); § Medorum
(_Artavasdes_;_Adiabenorum
A_)rtaxa[res; § Britann(o)rum Dumnobellau(_nus_) et
Tim......." ["Kings of the Parthians, Tiridates, and later Phrates,
took refuge with me as suppliants; of the Medes, Artavasdes; of the
Adiabeni, Artaxares; of the Britains, Dumnobellaunus, and
Tim......." [_Res gestae divi Augustae_5.32, trans. F. W. Shipley
(Loeb). The lacunae in the Latin text is supplemented in the English
translation by the Greek version of the_Res gestae_from the_Monumentum
Ancyranum_(which I am not reproducing).]
Cunobelinus (d._c_.AD 40), the son of Tasciovanus, reigned for about
thirty or forty years. It was the threat of the continuing expansion
of the Catevellauni kingdom which served as a pretext for the invasion
of Britain by Claudius in 43. Dio Cassius, who is the only source on
this war (60.19-23), names Caratacus and Togodumnus as sons of
Cunobelinus.
Christopher Ingham
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 16, 6:17 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
For "forbade Tasciovanus," read "forbade Cassivelaunus."
For "Tíida(_tes et," read "Tírida(_tes et."
Christopher Ingham
wrote:
Caesar reinstated the heir of the kingdom of the Trinovantes, which
had been overcome by the Catuvellauni, and forbade Tasciovanus from
For "forbade Tasciovanus," read "forbade Cassivelaunus."
"Ad mé supplices confug(_erunt_) regés Parthorum Tíida(_tes et
For "Tíida(_tes et," read "Tírida(_tes et."
Christopher Ingham
-
Christopher Ingham
Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?
On Sep 17, 4:41 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Barbara Levick, (_Claudius_[1990]), after determining that Claudius
suffered from cerebral palsy (pp. 13, 200n.7), has this to say about
Claudius Drusus (p. 23): "The marriage [to Plautia Urgulanilla]
produced offspring, a son asphyxiated in adolescence as he played at
throwing up a pear and catching it in his mouth (physical agility
might well preoccupy a son of Claudius...."
Slightly OT.
Christopher Ingham
By his first wife, Plautia Urgulanilla, Claudius had:
*Claudius Drusus choked to death on a pear, sometime between 22 and 28
*Claudia Antonia, who was repudiated by her father.
Claudius divorced Plautia on the grounds of Adultery abt 24. Very convenient that Drusus died isn't it.
Barbara Levick, (_Claudius_[1990]), after determining that Claudius
suffered from cerebral palsy (pp. 13, 200n.7), has this to say about
Claudius Drusus (p. 23): "The marriage [to Plautia Urgulanilla]
produced offspring, a son asphyxiated in adolescence as he played at
throwing up a pear and catching it in his mouth (physical agility
might well preoccupy a son of Claudius...."
Slightly OT.
Christopher Ingham