Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage John or
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage John or
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 454-460 (sub Suffolk) has a good
account of the life of King Henry VIII's well known brother-in-law,
Charles Brandon, K.G., 1st Duke of Suffolk.
Regarding his various wives, the following is stated regarding his
marriage to Margaret Neville on page 458:
"He then married before 7 Feb. 1506/7 Margaret (born 1466), ... widow
of Sir John Mortimer (died before 12 Nov, 1504), 3rd daughter and coh.
of John (Neville), Marquess of Montagu, by Isabel, daughter and coh.
of Sir Edmund Ingaldesthorpe, of Borough Green, co. Cambridge. This
marriage was declared void by the Archdeaconry Court of London, about
1507, and by Papal Bull, dated at Orvieto, 12 May 1528."
On page 458, footnote g, it is further related that Margaret, Lady
Mortimer, married, 3rdly, about Feb. 1521/2, Robert Downes, who was
living, 15 Oct. 1524. She died 31 Jan. 1527/8."
Margaret Neville's 3rd marriage to Robert Downes, Gentleman, is proven
by a Chancery Proceeding dated 1518-1529, which is found in the
National Archives catalog:
C 1/498/7
Robert Downes, gentleman, and Margaret, his wife, late the wife of
John Mortymer, knight. v. Robert Brown and Anne, his wife, late the
wife of James Framyngham, knight 'naturall' daughter of the said
Margaret, Antony Wingfield, knight, and William Waller.: Bond
collusively obtained settling lands of the said Margaret on Anne, in
tail. (Decree endorsed.) Subpoena and injunction.: Suffolk, Middlesex,
Worcester.
The above lawsuit also names Margaret Neville's illegitimate daughter,
Anne, wife successively of Sir James Framyngham and Robert Brown.
This daughter is not mentioned by Complete Peerage.
I also find various sources which allege that Margaret Neville had
another marriage to either John Horne, Thomas Horne, or Robert Horne.
See, for example, Kathy Lynn Emerson, Wives and Daughters: The Women
of Sixteenth Century England (1984): 160.
If Margaret Neville's Horne marriage can be confirmed, it would
obviously be a new addition to Complete Peerage's Suffolk account.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 454-460 (sub Suffolk) has a good
account of the life of King Henry VIII's well known brother-in-law,
Charles Brandon, K.G., 1st Duke of Suffolk.
Regarding his various wives, the following is stated regarding his
marriage to Margaret Neville on page 458:
"He then married before 7 Feb. 1506/7 Margaret (born 1466), ... widow
of Sir John Mortimer (died before 12 Nov, 1504), 3rd daughter and coh.
of John (Neville), Marquess of Montagu, by Isabel, daughter and coh.
of Sir Edmund Ingaldesthorpe, of Borough Green, co. Cambridge. This
marriage was declared void by the Archdeaconry Court of London, about
1507, and by Papal Bull, dated at Orvieto, 12 May 1528."
On page 458, footnote g, it is further related that Margaret, Lady
Mortimer, married, 3rdly, about Feb. 1521/2, Robert Downes, who was
living, 15 Oct. 1524. She died 31 Jan. 1527/8."
Margaret Neville's 3rd marriage to Robert Downes, Gentleman, is proven
by a Chancery Proceeding dated 1518-1529, which is found in the
National Archives catalog:
C 1/498/7
Robert Downes, gentleman, and Margaret, his wife, late the wife of
John Mortymer, knight. v. Robert Brown and Anne, his wife, late the
wife of James Framyngham, knight 'naturall' daughter of the said
Margaret, Antony Wingfield, knight, and William Waller.: Bond
collusively obtained settling lands of the said Margaret on Anne, in
tail. (Decree endorsed.) Subpoena and injunction.: Suffolk, Middlesex,
Worcester.
The above lawsuit also names Margaret Neville's illegitimate daughter,
Anne, wife successively of Sir James Framyngham and Robert Brown.
This daughter is not mentioned by Complete Peerage.
I also find various sources which allege that Margaret Neville had
another marriage to either John Horne, Thomas Horne, or Robert Horne.
See, for example, Kathy Lynn Emerson, Wives and Daughters: The Women
of Sixteenth Century England (1984): 160.
If Margaret Neville's Horne marriage can be confirmed, it would
obviously be a new addition to Complete Peerage's Suffolk account.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
WJhonson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage John
<<In a message dated 09/04/07 16:50:55 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
If Margaret Neville's Horne marriage can be confirmed, it would
obviously be a new addition to Complete Peerage's Suffolk account. >>
------------------------
Cited here
http://books.google.com/books?id=6BoaAA ... %22+Knight
Will Johnson
If Margaret Neville's Horne marriage can be confirmed, it would
obviously be a new addition to Complete Peerage's Suffolk account. >>
------------------------
Cited here
http://books.google.com/books?id=6BoaAA ... %22+Knight
Will Johnson
-
WJhonson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage John
The identification in my database, now, thanks to Douglas and the Vis I cited, of Sir Charles Framlingham's paternal grandparents as Sir James Framlingham by his wife Anne Horne "natural daughter" of Robert Horne by his mistress (?) Margaret Neville co-heiress of her father John Neville, 1st Marquess of Montagu
Now creates an additional royal ascent I had not previously known for William Gawdy, 1st Bart of West Harling son of Framlingham Gawdy died 1654 by his wife Lettice Knollys buried 1630
This new royal ascent goes to Edward III
Perhaps Brad Verity knows an ascent through Lettice ?
Will Johnson
Now creates an additional royal ascent I had not previously known for William Gawdy, 1st Bart of West Harling son of Framlingham Gawdy died 1654 by his wife Lettice Knollys buried 1630
This new royal ascent goes to Edward III
Perhaps Brad Verity knows an ascent through Lettice ?
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
Dear Newsgroup ~
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife, Margaret Neville, widow of Sir
John Mortimer [see C.P.12(1) (1953): 458, footnote g], I note that the
Papal bull dated 1528 which discusses Charles Brandon's divorce from
Margaret Neville clearly states that his [i.e., Duke Charles']
grandmother was the sister of the father of a former husband of
Margaret Neville's.
If this information is accurate, and I assume that it is, it can only
mean that Margaret Neville had another marriage which has never been
located, as the father of Margaret Neville's earlier known husband,
Sir John Mortimer, was Sir Hugh Mortimer (died 1460), of Martley,
Worcestershire. Sir Hugh Mortimer was definitely NOT a brother of
either of Charles Brandon's grandmothers.
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles Brandon's
paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Wingfield, daughter of Robert
Wingfield, Knt., of Letheringham, Suffolk, and his wife, Elizabeth
Goushill. Duke Charles' maternal grandmother was Elizabeth Darcy,
daughter of Robert Darcy, Knt., of Maldon, Essex, and his wife, Alice,
daughter and heiress of Henry Fillongley.
If the papal bull is correct, then Margaret Neville must have had a
previous marriage to either a male member of the Wingfield family or
the Darcy famiily. Looking over various possibilities, I see that one
good candidate for Margaret Neville's first husband would be Thomas
Wingfield, 6th son of Sir John Wingfield, of Letheringham, Suffolk,
and Elizabeth Fitz Lewis. Thomas Wingfield is stated to have been
killed at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, leaving no issue [see
Harvey, Vis. of Suffolk 1561 2 (H.S.P. n.s. 3) (1984): 217]. Margaret
Neville is reported by Complete Peerage to have been born in 1466. If
Thomas Wingfield was Margaret Neville's husband, then there would have
been ample time for Margaret Neville to have been widowed at age 19 in
1485, and then have married (2nd) Sir John Mortimer, who in turn died
in 1504.
This "extra" Wingfield marriage of Margaret Neville would be in
addition to the three other known marriages of Margaret Neville to
Mortimer, Brandon, and Downes, and her reputed marriage to John,
Robert or Thomas Horne. And, somewhere along the way, between
marriages, Margaret also produced an illegitimate daughter, Anne.
Busy lady that Margaret Neville.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife, Margaret Neville, widow of Sir
John Mortimer [see C.P.12(1) (1953): 458, footnote g], I note that the
Papal bull dated 1528 which discusses Charles Brandon's divorce from
Margaret Neville clearly states that his [i.e., Duke Charles']
grandmother was the sister of the father of a former husband of
Margaret Neville's.
If this information is accurate, and I assume that it is, it can only
mean that Margaret Neville had another marriage which has never been
located, as the father of Margaret Neville's earlier known husband,
Sir John Mortimer, was Sir Hugh Mortimer (died 1460), of Martley,
Worcestershire. Sir Hugh Mortimer was definitely NOT a brother of
either of Charles Brandon's grandmothers.
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles Brandon's
paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Wingfield, daughter of Robert
Wingfield, Knt., of Letheringham, Suffolk, and his wife, Elizabeth
Goushill. Duke Charles' maternal grandmother was Elizabeth Darcy,
daughter of Robert Darcy, Knt., of Maldon, Essex, and his wife, Alice,
daughter and heiress of Henry Fillongley.
If the papal bull is correct, then Margaret Neville must have had a
previous marriage to either a male member of the Wingfield family or
the Darcy famiily. Looking over various possibilities, I see that one
good candidate for Margaret Neville's first husband would be Thomas
Wingfield, 6th son of Sir John Wingfield, of Letheringham, Suffolk,
and Elizabeth Fitz Lewis. Thomas Wingfield is stated to have been
killed at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, leaving no issue [see
Harvey, Vis. of Suffolk 1561 2 (H.S.P. n.s. 3) (1984): 217]. Margaret
Neville is reported by Complete Peerage to have been born in 1466. If
Thomas Wingfield was Margaret Neville's husband, then there would have
been ample time for Margaret Neville to have been widowed at age 19 in
1485, and then have married (2nd) Sir John Mortimer, who in turn died
in 1504.
This "extra" Wingfield marriage of Margaret Neville would be in
addition to the three other known marriages of Margaret Neville to
Mortimer, Brandon, and Downes, and her reputed marriage to John,
Robert or Thomas Horne. And, somewhere along the way, between
marriages, Margaret also produced an illegitimate daughter, Anne.
Busy lady that Margaret Neville.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage Correction: Date of Margaret Neville's divo
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since posting my last message regarding Margaret Neville, I've located
another record involving Margaret Neville and her (?4th) husband,
Robert Downes, in the online National Archives catalog. In this new
item, Margaret Neville's husband is called Robert Downyns, whereas he
was called Robert Downes in the previous Chancery suit that I posted.
This new lawsuit concerns the manor of Netherhall Wygorns (in Soham),
Cambridgeshire, which property formed part of Margaret's inheritance
from her mother, Isabel (Ingaldesthorpe) Neville, it descending from
the Tiptoft family.
C 1/496/34
Covering dates 1518-1529
Robert Downyns and Dame Margaret Mortymer, his wife. v. Edward
Bestney.: A bargain for the manor of Netherhall and other lands in
Soham and Fordham, whereby the said Margaret undertakes to discharge
them of all annuities. Subpoena and injunction.: Cambridge. END OF
QUOTE.
According to VCH Cambridge, 10 (2002): 500-507, following Margaret
Neville's divorce c.1507-8 from Charles Brandon, she took refuge with
Edward Bestney, Soham's wealthiest resident, worth 400 marks in 1522.
He took on the lease of her Netherhall manor and in 1518 induced her
to sell him its reversion. The transaction was completed, after
disputes, by Margaret and her last husband, Robert Downes, in 1527,
when the manor supposedly included only 60 a. of arable, but c. 400 a.
of grass.
Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 458 states that the marriage of
Margaret Neville and her [?3rd] husband, Charles Brandon, was declared
void about 1507. However, VCH Cambridge, 10 (2002): 252-258
indicates that Charles and Margaret sold her manor of Burgh Hall (in
Swaffham Bulbeck), Cambridgeshire in 1508 to William Mordaunt.. As
such, it would seem that Margaret and Charles can not have been
divorced any earlier than 1508, not 1507, if Charles was still dealing
with Margaret's property in 1508.
So we noiw have Margaret Neville with yet another man, Edward
Bestney. This lady was very busy.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah
Since posting my last message regarding Margaret Neville, I've located
another record involving Margaret Neville and her (?4th) husband,
Robert Downes, in the online National Archives catalog. In this new
item, Margaret Neville's husband is called Robert Downyns, whereas he
was called Robert Downes in the previous Chancery suit that I posted.
This new lawsuit concerns the manor of Netherhall Wygorns (in Soham),
Cambridgeshire, which property formed part of Margaret's inheritance
from her mother, Isabel (Ingaldesthorpe) Neville, it descending from
the Tiptoft family.
C 1/496/34
Covering dates 1518-1529
Robert Downyns and Dame Margaret Mortymer, his wife. v. Edward
Bestney.: A bargain for the manor of Netherhall and other lands in
Soham and Fordham, whereby the said Margaret undertakes to discharge
them of all annuities. Subpoena and injunction.: Cambridge. END OF
QUOTE.
According to VCH Cambridge, 10 (2002): 500-507, following Margaret
Neville's divorce c.1507-8 from Charles Brandon, she took refuge with
Edward Bestney, Soham's wealthiest resident, worth 400 marks in 1522.
He took on the lease of her Netherhall manor and in 1518 induced her
to sell him its reversion. The transaction was completed, after
disputes, by Margaret and her last husband, Robert Downes, in 1527,
when the manor supposedly included only 60 a. of arable, but c. 400 a.
of grass.
Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 458 states that the marriage of
Margaret Neville and her [?3rd] husband, Charles Brandon, was declared
void about 1507. However, VCH Cambridge, 10 (2002): 252-258
indicates that Charles and Margaret sold her manor of Burgh Hall (in
Swaffham Bulbeck), Cambridgeshire in 1508 to William Mordaunt.. As
such, it would seem that Margaret and Charles can not have been
divorced any earlier than 1508, not 1507, if Charles was still dealing
with Margaret's property in 1508.
So we noiw have Margaret Neville with yet another man, Edward
Bestney. This lady was very busy.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
(snip)
When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles Brandon"
or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
MA-R
Dear Newsgroup ~
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
(snip)
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles Brandon's
paternal grandmother
When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles Brandon"
or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
MA-R
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On Sep 5, 9:36 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
< On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
<
< > Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke
Charles
< > Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
<
< (snip)
<
< > Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles
Brandon's
< > paternal grandmother
<
< When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
< amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
< referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles
Brandon"
< or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
< perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
< subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
< someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
<
< MA-R
Guess Mike has never heard of King Harry or Good Queen Bess.
DR
< On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
<
Dear Newsgroup ~
< > Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke
Charles
< > Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
<
< (snip)
<
< > Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles
Brandon's
< > paternal grandmother
<
< When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
< amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
< referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles
Brandon"
< or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
< perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
< subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
< someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
<
< MA-R
Guess Mike has never heard of King Harry or Good Queen Bess.
DR
-
John Briggs
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
Douglas Richardson wrote:
That is not an answer. Here's a hint - when in a hole, stop digging.
--
John Briggs
On Sep 5, 9:36 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke
Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
(snip)
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles
Brandon's
paternal grandmother
When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles
Brandon"
or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
Guess Mike has never heard of King Harry or Good Queen Bess.
That is not an answer. Here's a hint - when in a hole, stop digging.
--
John Briggs
-
Douglas Richardson
C.P. Addition: The kinship of Charles Brandon's wives, Marga
Dear Newsgroup ~
Another correction I note for the Complete Peerage account of Charles
Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, is the statement that his first wife,
Margaret Neville, was the aunt of his second wife, Anne Browne.
Margaret Neville is there identified as the daughter and coh. of John
Neville, Marquess of Montagu, whereas Anne Browne is identified as the
"3rd daughter of Sir Anthony Browne, K.G., by Lucy, daughter and coh.
of John (Neville), Marquess of Montagu." [Reference: C.P. 12(1)
(1959): 458-459].
This, of course, is impossible, as the evidence indicates that Anne
Browne was a grown adult with a child by 1508, whereas Sir Anthony
Browne did not marry his known wife, Lucy Neville, until after 27
April 1497 (date of her first husband's will). Also, Anne can not
possibly be the 3rd daughter of Sir Anthony Brtowne. Rather, she can
only be his eldest daughter by an unknown 1st wife. I might note that
the date of Lucy Neville's 1st husband, Thomas Fitzwilliam's will is
found in the same volume of Complete Peerage on page 119, footnote f
sub Southampton. One other thing, I don't believe Anne Browne's
father, Anthony Browne, was a Knight of the Garter as claimed by C.P.
Rather, I believe it was her half-brother and nephew both named
Anthony Browne who were Knighrts of the Garter.
These various inaccurate statements are made in spite of the fact that
the author of the Suffolk piece in Complete Peerage on page 458 quotes
a Papal bull dated 1528 in which Anne Browne is stated to have been
related to Margaret Neville in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of kinship, not
1st and 2nd. This would appear to mean that one of Anne Browne's
grandparents was a sibling to Margaret Neville's father, John
Neville. Anne can not be related through Margaret Neville's mother,
Isabel Ingaldesthorpe, as Isabel was an only child and had no
siblings. Margaret Neville would surely be on the shorter side of the
kinship, as she was aged about 42 in 1508, whereas Anne Browne was
obviously still a young woman. If I understand the Papal bull
correctly, then Anne Browne would necessarily be a great-granddaughter
of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury,by Alice, daughter and
heiress of Thomas Montagu, 4th Earl of Salisbury.
Sometime ago, Adrian Channing noted that Sir Anthony Browne (father of
Anne Browne) is provided an earlier wife, Alice, in the book, The
Browne's of Betchworth Castle, by Pym Yateman. This statement is not
sourced, so one must be careful. However, checking the Neville family
tree, so far I've found one prospective candidate named Alice who
would fit to be Sir Anthony Browne's first wife, namely Alice Stanley,
daughter of Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby, by his wife, Eleanor
Neville. As far as I know, Alice Stanley's marital history is
unknown. Thomas Stanley and Eleanor Neville were married about 17
Dec. 1454 (date of their marriage settlement). Thus, Thomas and
Eleanor would fit chronologically to be the maternal grandparents of
Anne Browne who was a young woman with a child in 1508. If this is
the correct set of grandparents, then Anne Browne would be related to
Margaret Neville in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of kinship just as stated
in the Papal bull. This would also mean however, that both of Sir
Anthony Browne's wives were near related to one another as well.
Lastly, previous posters appear to have been unable to find any
contemporary documentation that Anne Browne, 2nd wife of Charles
Brandon, was the daughter of Anthony Browne, Knt. (died 1506), who was
Lieutenant of Calais. In fact, Complete Peerage provides no
documentation whatsoever that Anne Browne was Sir Anthony Browne's
daughter. For late evidence of Anne Browne's parentage, however, see
Dugdale, Vis. of Lancaster 1664-5 3 (Chetham Soc. 88) (1873): 288
(Stanley pedigree), in which Anne Browne, 2nd wife of Charles Brandon,
is specifically called "dau. of Sir Anthony Browne, governor of
Calais."
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Another correction I note for the Complete Peerage account of Charles
Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, is the statement that his first wife,
Margaret Neville, was the aunt of his second wife, Anne Browne.
Margaret Neville is there identified as the daughter and coh. of John
Neville, Marquess of Montagu, whereas Anne Browne is identified as the
"3rd daughter of Sir Anthony Browne, K.G., by Lucy, daughter and coh.
of John (Neville), Marquess of Montagu." [Reference: C.P. 12(1)
(1959): 458-459].
This, of course, is impossible, as the evidence indicates that Anne
Browne was a grown adult with a child by 1508, whereas Sir Anthony
Browne did not marry his known wife, Lucy Neville, until after 27
April 1497 (date of her first husband's will). Also, Anne can not
possibly be the 3rd daughter of Sir Anthony Brtowne. Rather, she can
only be his eldest daughter by an unknown 1st wife. I might note that
the date of Lucy Neville's 1st husband, Thomas Fitzwilliam's will is
found in the same volume of Complete Peerage on page 119, footnote f
sub Southampton. One other thing, I don't believe Anne Browne's
father, Anthony Browne, was a Knight of the Garter as claimed by C.P.
Rather, I believe it was her half-brother and nephew both named
Anthony Browne who were Knighrts of the Garter.
These various inaccurate statements are made in spite of the fact that
the author of the Suffolk piece in Complete Peerage on page 458 quotes
a Papal bull dated 1528 in which Anne Browne is stated to have been
related to Margaret Neville in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of kinship, not
1st and 2nd. This would appear to mean that one of Anne Browne's
grandparents was a sibling to Margaret Neville's father, John
Neville. Anne can not be related through Margaret Neville's mother,
Isabel Ingaldesthorpe, as Isabel was an only child and had no
siblings. Margaret Neville would surely be on the shorter side of the
kinship, as she was aged about 42 in 1508, whereas Anne Browne was
obviously still a young woman. If I understand the Papal bull
correctly, then Anne Browne would necessarily be a great-granddaughter
of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury,by Alice, daughter and
heiress of Thomas Montagu, 4th Earl of Salisbury.
Sometime ago, Adrian Channing noted that Sir Anthony Browne (father of
Anne Browne) is provided an earlier wife, Alice, in the book, The
Browne's of Betchworth Castle, by Pym Yateman. This statement is not
sourced, so one must be careful. However, checking the Neville family
tree, so far I've found one prospective candidate named Alice who
would fit to be Sir Anthony Browne's first wife, namely Alice Stanley,
daughter of Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby, by his wife, Eleanor
Neville. As far as I know, Alice Stanley's marital history is
unknown. Thomas Stanley and Eleanor Neville were married about 17
Dec. 1454 (date of their marriage settlement). Thus, Thomas and
Eleanor would fit chronologically to be the maternal grandparents of
Anne Browne who was a young woman with a child in 1508. If this is
the correct set of grandparents, then Anne Browne would be related to
Margaret Neville in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of kinship just as stated
in the Papal bull. This would also mean however, that both of Sir
Anthony Browne's wives were near related to one another as well.
Lastly, previous posters appear to have been unable to find any
contemporary documentation that Anne Browne, 2nd wife of Charles
Brandon, was the daughter of Anthony Browne, Knt. (died 1506), who was
Lieutenant of Calais. In fact, Complete Peerage provides no
documentation whatsoever that Anne Browne was Sir Anthony Browne's
daughter. For late evidence of Anne Browne's parentage, however, see
Dugdale, Vis. of Lancaster 1664-5 3 (Chetham Soc. 88) (1873): 288
(Stanley pedigree), in which Anne Browne, 2nd wife of Charles Brandon,
is specifically called "dau. of Sir Anthony Browne, governor of
Calais."
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On 5 Sep., 18:46, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On the contrary, he has - and he's also heard of the Emperor Who Had
No Clothes.
MAR
On Sep 5, 9:36 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke
Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
(snip)
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles
Brandon's
paternal grandmother
When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles
Brandon"
or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
MA-R
Guess Mike has never heard of King Harry or Good Queen Bess.
DR
On the contrary, he has - and he's also heard of the Emperor Who Had
No Clothes.
MAR
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1189026272.537532.224720@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Since our own trained and professional naked emperor fell into this error,
and then tried to vindicate himself with false equivalents, it may be worth
explaining the convention a bit further.
"King Harry" was king of England, not of his own surname - so that just as
it is wrong to speak of "Duke Charles Brandon" it would be wrong to speak of
"King Harry Tudor" or "King Harry Plantagenet", "Queen Elizabeth Tudor" or
"Queen Elizabeth Windsor".
Even where the surname and title happen to be the same, as with Earl Rivers,
name and title are still distinct from each other in usage and it is wrong
to speak, for instance, of Anthony, earl Rivers as "Earl Anthony Rivers".
Peter Stewart
news:1189026272.537532.224720@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On 5 Sep., 18:46, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 5, 9:36 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 5 Sep., 05:58, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Reading the passage in Complete Peerage that deals with Duke
Charles
Brandon's divorce from his 1st wife,
(snip)
Reviewing the Brandon family tree, I find that Duke Charles
Brandon's
paternal grandmother
When offering corrections to CP, it is perhaps advisable not to use
amateur and erroneous terms such as "Duke Charles Brandon" when
referring to Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. "Charles
Brandon"
or "Charles, Duke of Suffolk" or "the 1st Duke of Suffolk" are
perfectly good alternatives, but "Duke Charles Brandon" makes the
subject sound like a used car salesman, and its author appear to be
someone who knows nothing about the British Peerage.
MA-R
Guess Mike has never heard of King Harry or Good Queen Bess.
DR
On the contrary, he has - and he's also heard of the Emperor Who Had
No Clothes.
Since our own trained and professional naked emperor fell into this error,
and then tried to vindicate himself with false equivalents, it may be worth
explaining the convention a bit further.
"King Harry" was king of England, not of his own surname - so that just as
it is wrong to speak of "Duke Charles Brandon" it would be wrong to speak of
"King Harry Tudor" or "King Harry Plantagenet", "Queen Elizabeth Tudor" or
"Queen Elizabeth Windsor".
Even where the surname and title happen to be the same, as with Earl Rivers,
name and title are still distinct from each other in usage and it is wrong
to speak, for instance, of Anthony, earl Rivers as "Earl Anthony Rivers".
Peter Stewart
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
Dear Will,
This is strictly a matter of reflecting what the title actually
was (or is).
1. William Longespee, Earl _of_ Salisbury, or
2. Lionel, Duke _of_ Clarence,
vs.
3. Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers, or
4. Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer
The title granted either included the article _of_ or did not.
If not, it should not be inserted, lest one should wonder what rivers
Anthony Woodville was Earl of.......
Cheers,
John
On Sep 5, 6:40?pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
This is strictly a matter of reflecting what the title actually
was (or is).
1. William Longespee, Earl _of_ Salisbury, or
2. Lionel, Duke _of_ Clarence,
vs.
3. Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers, or
4. Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer
The title granted either included the article _of_ or did not.
If not, it should not be inserted, lest one should wonder what rivers
Anthony Woodville was Earl of.......
Cheers,
John
On Sep 5, 6:40?pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 09/05/07 15:35:36 Pacific Standard Time, p_m_stew...@msn.com writes:
Even where the surname and title happen to be the same, as with Earl Rivers,
name and title are still distinct from each other in usage and it is wrong
to speak, for instance, of Anthony, earl Rivers as "Earl Anthony Rivers".
----------------------------
As a follow-up issue, perhaps someone can touch on when one uses
X, Earl OF Y
versus
X, Earl Y
Will Johnson
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On Sep 6, 8:40 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
This is just a question of the title was created in the first place -
if the letters patent stated "Earl Rivers" then the title can never be
"Earl of Rivers", and vice versa.
Either way the holder will be spoken of, and informally addressed, as
"Lord Rivers", but when the formal title "earl" is used the correct
designation follows the specific peerage creation.
The same applies to marquesses, for instance the famous foreign
secretary and viceroy Lord Curzon was created "Marquess Curzon of
Kedleston" but never "Marquess of Curzon" or "Marquess of Kedleston".
Dukes are not created as just "Duke X", but are always "Duke of X",
and whatever their dukedom they are never called "Lord X". Their
eldest sons take their secondary title of lower rank as a courtesy
title, so that the Duke of Marlborough's heir is known as Marquess of
Blandford, and this continues down the ranks and generations: his
heir's eldest son is known as Earl of Sunderland, and so on.
In a few families there may be two secondary titles with exactly the
same precedence, and in these cases there may be a choice of courtesy
title - for example the Charteris family, where the heirs of earls of
Wemyss & March are known in alternate generations as Lord Elcho and
Lord Neidpath.
Peter Stewart
In a message dated 09/05/07 15:35:36 Pacific Standard Time, p_m_stew...@msn.com writes:
Even where the surname and title happen to be the same, as with Earl Rivers,
name and title are still distinct from each other in usage and it is wrong
to speak, for instance, of Anthony, earl Rivers as "Earl Anthony Rivers".
----------------------------
As a follow-up issue, perhaps someone can touch on when one uses
X, Earl OF Y
versus
X, Earl Y
This is just a question of the title was created in the first place -
if the letters patent stated "Earl Rivers" then the title can never be
"Earl of Rivers", and vice versa.
Either way the holder will be spoken of, and informally addressed, as
"Lord Rivers", but when the formal title "earl" is used the correct
designation follows the specific peerage creation.
The same applies to marquesses, for instance the famous foreign
secretary and viceroy Lord Curzon was created "Marquess Curzon of
Kedleston" but never "Marquess of Curzon" or "Marquess of Kedleston".
Dukes are not created as just "Duke X", but are always "Duke of X",
and whatever their dukedom they are never called "Lord X". Their
eldest sons take their secondary title of lower rank as a courtesy
title, so that the Duke of Marlborough's heir is known as Marquess of
Blandford, and this continues down the ranks and generations: his
heir's eldest son is known as Earl of Sunderland, and so on.
In a few families there may be two secondary titles with exactly the
same precedence, and in these cases there may be a choice of courtesy
title - for example the Charteris family, where the heirs of earls of
Wemyss & March are known in alternate generations as Lord Elcho and
Lord Neidpath.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On Sep 6, 9:52 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Quite right, John - I was mistaken in my earlier post giving the
example of Rivers when, as you remind me, the title and surname were
NOT the same in that case. Spencer is a correct example of what I
meant to point out.
Peter Stewart
Dear Will,
This is strictly a matter of reflecting what the title actually
was (or is).
1. William Longespee, Earl _of_ Salisbury, or
2. Lionel, Duke _of_ Clarence,
vs.
3. Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers, or
4. Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer
The title granted either included the article _of_ or did not.
If not, it should not be inserted, lest one should wonder what rivers
Anthony Woodville was Earl of.......
Quite right, John - I was mistaken in my earlier post giving the
example of Rivers when, as you remind me, the title and surname were
NOT the same in that case. Spencer is a correct example of what I
meant to point out.
Peter Stewart
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: The kinship of Charles Brandon's wives, M
Dear Adrian ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
There is just one tiny problem with your theory. It doesn't fit the
known evidence. The 1528 Papal bull which Complete Peerage quotes in
extenso in its Suffolk account stipulates that Anne Browne, the 2nd
wife of Charles Brandon, was related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of
kindred to his first wife, Margaret Neville [see Complete Peerage,
12(1) (1959): 458, footnote g]. This can ONLY mean that Anne Browne
was a granddaughter of one of Margaret Neville's paternal uncles or
aunts, as Margaret Neville's mother was an only child. We can be
fairly certain the the short side of the kinship was on Margaret
Neville's side as Margaret was aged about 42 in 1508, whereas Anne
Browne was obviously a still young woman in that year.
By your theory, Anne Browne is the daughter of Eleanor Ughtred, which
woman is clearly was not a first cousin of Margaret Nevillle. We can
be certain of this as none of Margaret Neville's paternal aunts is
known to have married an Ughtred. Therefore your Ughtred theory fails
and needs to be replaced with another one that fits the actual
evidence. In my post today, I've tentatively proposed Alice Stanley
as the mother of Anne Browne. If Alice Stanley is Anne's mother, it
would fit the evidence. The Ughtred theory does not. This matter
deserves further study.
When you have a moment, I'd appreciate it you would alert Chris
Philips to the fact that Eleanor Ughtred is not the mother of Anne
Browne, and that Eleanor Ughtred may not even have been the wife of
Anne Browne's father, Sir Anthony Browne. He'll probably want to
correct his website.
Again thank you for your good post.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Sep 5, 1:18 pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Anne is indeed the daughter of Sir Anthony Browne but by his 1st
and
< previous wife. That he had a previous wife is clear from his
will..He is probably
< the same Anthony Browne who m. Eleanor d of Robert Ughtred. This
is in Cris
< Philips corrections to CP.
<
< Adrian
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
There is just one tiny problem with your theory. It doesn't fit the
known evidence. The 1528 Papal bull which Complete Peerage quotes in
extenso in its Suffolk account stipulates that Anne Browne, the 2nd
wife of Charles Brandon, was related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of
kindred to his first wife, Margaret Neville [see Complete Peerage,
12(1) (1959): 458, footnote g]. This can ONLY mean that Anne Browne
was a granddaughter of one of Margaret Neville's paternal uncles or
aunts, as Margaret Neville's mother was an only child. We can be
fairly certain the the short side of the kinship was on Margaret
Neville's side as Margaret was aged about 42 in 1508, whereas Anne
Browne was obviously a still young woman in that year.
By your theory, Anne Browne is the daughter of Eleanor Ughtred, which
woman is clearly was not a first cousin of Margaret Nevillle. We can
be certain of this as none of Margaret Neville's paternal aunts is
known to have married an Ughtred. Therefore your Ughtred theory fails
and needs to be replaced with another one that fits the actual
evidence. In my post today, I've tentatively proposed Alice Stanley
as the mother of Anne Browne. If Alice Stanley is Anne's mother, it
would fit the evidence. The Ughtred theory does not. This matter
deserves further study.
When you have a moment, I'd appreciate it you would alert Chris
Philips to the fact that Eleanor Ughtred is not the mother of Anne
Browne, and that Eleanor Ughtred may not even have been the wife of
Anne Browne's father, Sir Anthony Browne. He'll probably want to
correct his website.
Again thank you for your good post.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Sep 5, 1:18 pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Anne is indeed the daughter of Sir Anthony Browne but by his 1st
and
< previous wife. That he had a previous wife is clear from his
will..He is probably
< the same Anthony Browne who m. Eleanor d of Robert Ughtred. This
is in Cris
< Philips corrections to CP.
<
< Adrian
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: The kinship of Charles Brandon's wives, M
In a message dated 9/5/2007 10:00:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
<How is it that we know that Anne Browne was a young woman in that
year?
<And not to quibble but when Charles "was a young man" he was
bethrothed to
"Anne"
<So apparently they were of-the-same-age
<Will
Dear Will ~
You've asked an excellent question. I have Anne Browne's father, Sr
Anthony Browne, listed as the fourth of seven sons of Thomas Browne,
Knt., and his wife, Eleanor Arundel. Thomas and Eleanor were married
about 1437-1438 (date of fine), and their eldest son, George, was
reputedly born in 1440. Thus, I suppose a reasonable estimate would
be that Sir Anthony Browne was born about 1450. If we placed the
birth of Sir Anthony Browne's daughter, Anne Browne, in the period,
1480-1485, that would probably work out just fine. That would make
Anne anywhere from 23 to 28 when Charles Brandon married her. We know
that Anne Browne had already borne him a child out of wedlock when
they married and also that he had previously contracted to marry her
before he married his 1st wife, Margaret Neville. The marriage to
Margaret Neville took place before 7 Feb.1406/7. Why Brandon broke
his contract to marry Anne Browne is unknown. Later in life Charles
Brandon did the same thing with at least one other woman. I get the
impression that Charles Brandon was as unstable as Margaret Neville in
the marriage department.
Complete Peerage estimates that Charles Brandon was born about 1484.
But this appears to be a guess, as C.P. states that his parents were
married before 9 June 1475, and that his older brother, William
Brandon, was born about 1476.
In any case, Chales Brandon was certainly born after 1476, as I'm sure
so was Anne Browne. Margaret Neville on the other hand was born about
1466. So Margaret Neville was at least ten years older than Charles
Brandon, and possibly even more. The same could probably be said for
Anne Browne.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<How is it that we know that Anne Browne was a young woman in that
year?
<And not to quibble but when Charles "was a young man" he was
bethrothed to
"Anne"
<So apparently they were of-the-same-age
<Will
Dear Will ~
You've asked an excellent question. I have Anne Browne's father, Sr
Anthony Browne, listed as the fourth of seven sons of Thomas Browne,
Knt., and his wife, Eleanor Arundel. Thomas and Eleanor were married
about 1437-1438 (date of fine), and their eldest son, George, was
reputedly born in 1440. Thus, I suppose a reasonable estimate would
be that Sir Anthony Browne was born about 1450. If we placed the
birth of Sir Anthony Browne's daughter, Anne Browne, in the period,
1480-1485, that would probably work out just fine. That would make
Anne anywhere from 23 to 28 when Charles Brandon married her. We know
that Anne Browne had already borne him a child out of wedlock when
they married and also that he had previously contracted to marry her
before he married his 1st wife, Margaret Neville. The marriage to
Margaret Neville took place before 7 Feb.1406/7. Why Brandon broke
his contract to marry Anne Browne is unknown. Later in life Charles
Brandon did the same thing with at least one other woman. I get the
impression that Charles Brandon was as unstable as Margaret Neville in
the marriage department.
Complete Peerage estimates that Charles Brandon was born about 1484.
But this appears to be a guess, as C.P. states that his parents were
married before 9 June 1475, and that his older brother, William
Brandon, was born about 1476.
In any case, Chales Brandon was certainly born after 1476, as I'm sure
so was Anne Browne. Margaret Neville on the other hand was born about
1466. So Margaret Neville was at least ten years older than Charles
Brandon, and possibly even more. The same could probably be said for
Anne Browne.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Brad Verity
Re: C.P. Addition: The kinship of Charles Brandon's wives, M
On Sep 5, 9:58 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
That presumes the Duke of Suffolk told the truth in 1528. He'd by
that point thrown over a pregnant Anne Browne, married her aunt,
annulled her aunt to marry Anne Browne, became contracted to marry his
8-year-old ward Elizabeth Lisle, an heiress, and secretly married
Mary, Queen of France, sister of Henry VIII.
You trust this man to get details straight or not to lie to strengthen
the legitimacy of his two daughters by Anne Browne and marriage to
Queen Mary?
OK.
Yes.
And do you 'know' all of Margaret Neville's paternal aunts? Plenty of
the Nevill men had bastards, even the Archbishop of York. So why
couldn't Richard Nevill, Earl of Salisbury (c.1400-1460) have had one?
Not only arrogant, but incorrect.
Alice Stanley as mother is speculation. No more accurate than
speculating a bastard daughter for the earl of Salisbury.
Yes it does. There is record of a marriage of Eleanor Ughtred and
Anthony Browne - check Adrian's posts in the archives. Eleanor
Ughtred's mother, according to CP, is unknown.
Yes. You can start by reading the book 'Charles Brandon, Duke of
Suffolk, c.1484-1545' by S.J. Gunn [New York: Blackwell Press, 1988],
since your response to Will Johnson's posts further down in this
thread shows you have limited knowledge of the subject. Margaret
Mortimer was almost 20 years older than Charles Brandon - he married
her for money, not for love, and proceeded to quickly sell one of her
manors for a large cash amount. Once that was done, he went to Essex
with a group of friends to retrieve Anne Browne, who'd been a
gentlewoman to the queen and had no inheritance of her own, and marry
her properly, or at least publicly.
Or not.
Cheers, --------Brad
There is just one tiny problem with your theory. It doesn't fit the
known evidence. The 1528 Papal bull which Complete Peerage quotes in
extenso in its Suffolk account stipulates that Anne Browne, the 2nd
wife of Charles Brandon, was related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of
kindred to his first wife, Margaret Neville [see Complete Peerage,
12(1) (1959): 458, footnote g]. This can ONLY mean
That presumes the Duke of Suffolk told the truth in 1528. He'd by
that point thrown over a pregnant Anne Browne, married her aunt,
annulled her aunt to marry Anne Browne, became contracted to marry his
8-year-old ward Elizabeth Lisle, an heiress, and secretly married
Mary, Queen of France, sister of Henry VIII.
You trust this man to get details straight or not to lie to strengthen
the legitimacy of his two daughters by Anne Browne and marriage to
Queen Mary?
that Anne Browne
was a granddaughter of one of Margaret Neville's paternal uncles or
aunts, as Margaret Neville's mother was an only child.
OK.
We can be
fairly certain the the short side of the kinship was on Margaret
Neville's side as Margaret was aged about 42 in 1508, whereas Anne
Browne was obviously a still young woman in that year.
Yes.
By your theory, Anne Browne is the daughter of Eleanor Ughtred, which
woman is clearly was not a first cousin of Margaret Nevillle. We can
be certain of this as none of Margaret Neville's paternal aunts is
known to have married an Ughtred.
And do you 'know' all of Margaret Neville's paternal aunts? Plenty of
the Nevill men had bastards, even the Archbishop of York. So why
couldn't Richard Nevill, Earl of Salisbury (c.1400-1460) have had one?
Therefore your Ughtred theory fails
and needs to be replaced with another one that fits the actual
evidence.
Not only arrogant, but incorrect.
In my post today, I've tentatively proposed Alice Stanley
as the mother of Anne Browne. If Alice Stanley is Anne's mother, it
would fit the evidence.
Alice Stanley as mother is speculation. No more accurate than
speculating a bastard daughter for the earl of Salisbury.
The Ughtred theory does not.
Yes it does. There is record of a marriage of Eleanor Ughtred and
Anthony Browne - check Adrian's posts in the archives. Eleanor
Ughtred's mother, according to CP, is unknown.
This matter
deserves further study.
Yes. You can start by reading the book 'Charles Brandon, Duke of
Suffolk, c.1484-1545' by S.J. Gunn [New York: Blackwell Press, 1988],
since your response to Will Johnson's posts further down in this
thread shows you have limited knowledge of the subject. Margaret
Mortimer was almost 20 years older than Charles Brandon - he married
her for money, not for love, and proceeded to quickly sell one of her
manors for a large cash amount. Once that was done, he went to Essex
with a group of friends to retrieve Anne Browne, who'd been a
gentlewoman to the queen and had no inheritance of her own, and marry
her properly, or at least publicly.
When you have a moment, I'd appreciate it you would alert Chris
Philips to the fact that Eleanor Ughtred is not the mother of Anne
Browne, and that Eleanor Ughtred may not even have been the wife of
Anne Browne's father, Sir Anthony Browne. He'll probably want to
correct his website.
Or not.
Cheers, --------Brad
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
Dear Newsgroup ~
I believe that I 've finally found the original source of the
statement that Margaret Neville, 1st wife of Charles Brandon, Duke of
Suffolk, had a Horne marriage.
In the book, Romance of the Peerage; or Curiosities of Family History
by George Lillie Craik, 2 (1849): 231-232, there is an interesting
discussion of Charles Brandon's first two wives, Margaret Neville and
Anne Browne. Regarding the possible kinship between Margaret Neville
and Anne Browne, Mr. Craik has the following to say:
"The first lady who appears distinctly in his history is Anne daughter
of Sir Anthony Browne, Governor of Calais; with her, we are told, he
'being in the court, living sole and unmarried, made a contract of
matrimony; but, before any solemnization of marriage, not only had a
daughter by her, but also broke promise with her, and openly and
solemnly married with the Lady Mortimer.' Margaret Lady Mortimer was
the widow of Sir John Mortimer, and daughter of John Nevil Marquis of
Montagu, the younger brother of Richard Earl of Warwick, the king-
maker. I do not find it so stated, but probably the two rival ladies
were near relations; for a sister of Lady Mortimer's married one
Anthony Browne, whose grandson was created Viscount Montagu, and whose
descendants subsisted with that title until down to the year 1797.
But, be that as it may, Lady Mortimer soon found that she had not
secured the quiet possession of Brandon by all the openness and
solemnity of the ceremony that had united them. Anne Browne appealed
to the law in vindication of her prior rights; and the result was that
not only was the marriage with Lady Mortimer found to be illegal and
null, but, as it would appear, Brandon was adjudged to fulfill his
contract with the other lady. At any rate, he now married Anne Browne
as openly and solemnly as he had lately married Lady Montagu; all the
nobility, it is recorded, honoured the occasion with their presence:
Anne afterwards bore him another daughter, who became the wife of
Thomas Stanley second Lord Monteagle; and she died his wife,
universally acknowledged as such. As for Lady Mortimer, she appears
to have afterwards married one Robert Horne." END OF QUOTE.
For sources, Mr. Craik states in a footnote that his version of
Charles Brandon's first two marriages is taken from "the account given
by John Hales, in his 'Declaration of the Succession of the Crown
Imperial of England,' written in 1563. Craik adds: "Hales, a
contemporary, is evidently well informed, and his tract was written
with the object of supporting the claim of Brandon's descendants to
the Crown." Mr. Craik correctly supposes that Anne Browne's father is
be the same person as the Anthony Browne who married Margaret
Neville's sister, Lucy Neville. But this did not make the two ladies
related to one another. Anne Browne was Lucy Neville's step-daughter,
not her daughter.
Regarding Margaret Neville's third marriage to Robert Horne, Craik
supplies the following source: Dugdale, I, 308.
I checked my personal copy of Dugdale this morning. I find that in
his account of Margaret Neville's father, "John Nevill, Marques of
Mountague," in Volume I, pg. 308, he lists Margaret Neville as John
Neville's daughter and states that she married "Sir John Mortimer,
Knight, and afterwards Robert Horne." His source for Margaret's
marriages appears to be something entitled "Catal. of Nobil." by R.B.
In this instance, I believe William Dugdale has made a slight error.
The contemporary records show that Margaret Neville married in
succession John Mortimer, Knt., Charles Brandon, Knt. (afterwards Duke
of Suffolk), and Robert Downes, Gent. (in that order). I assume that
Dugdale's source ("R.B.") mistakenly entered Robert Downes' name as
Robert Horne. If so, that would explain why I can find no record of
Margaret Neville's marriage to any Robert Horne, and also why Complete
Peerage makes no reference to this marriage.
However, as we've seen repeatedly again and again, errors that get in
print often stay in print long after they have been disproven.
Margaret Neville's alleged Horne marriage was mentioned in print as
late as 1984 in Kathy Lynn Emerson's book, Wives and Daughters: The
Women of Sixteenth Century England, pg. 160. This is all the more
reason to double check statements found in print, be they in Dugdale,
Craik, Emerson, or for that matter Richardson. In this case, Mr.
Craik and Mr. Dugdale cited their source, so it is easy to trace the
origin of the error of Margaret Neville's Horne marriage back to that
pesky "R.B."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I believe that I 've finally found the original source of the
statement that Margaret Neville, 1st wife of Charles Brandon, Duke of
Suffolk, had a Horne marriage.
In the book, Romance of the Peerage; or Curiosities of Family History
by George Lillie Craik, 2 (1849): 231-232, there is an interesting
discussion of Charles Brandon's first two wives, Margaret Neville and
Anne Browne. Regarding the possible kinship between Margaret Neville
and Anne Browne, Mr. Craik has the following to say:
"The first lady who appears distinctly in his history is Anne daughter
of Sir Anthony Browne, Governor of Calais; with her, we are told, he
'being in the court, living sole and unmarried, made a contract of
matrimony; but, before any solemnization of marriage, not only had a
daughter by her, but also broke promise with her, and openly and
solemnly married with the Lady Mortimer.' Margaret Lady Mortimer was
the widow of Sir John Mortimer, and daughter of John Nevil Marquis of
Montagu, the younger brother of Richard Earl of Warwick, the king-
maker. I do not find it so stated, but probably the two rival ladies
were near relations; for a sister of Lady Mortimer's married one
Anthony Browne, whose grandson was created Viscount Montagu, and whose
descendants subsisted with that title until down to the year 1797.
But, be that as it may, Lady Mortimer soon found that she had not
secured the quiet possession of Brandon by all the openness and
solemnity of the ceremony that had united them. Anne Browne appealed
to the law in vindication of her prior rights; and the result was that
not only was the marriage with Lady Mortimer found to be illegal and
null, but, as it would appear, Brandon was adjudged to fulfill his
contract with the other lady. At any rate, he now married Anne Browne
as openly and solemnly as he had lately married Lady Montagu; all the
nobility, it is recorded, honoured the occasion with their presence:
Anne afterwards bore him another daughter, who became the wife of
Thomas Stanley second Lord Monteagle; and she died his wife,
universally acknowledged as such. As for Lady Mortimer, she appears
to have afterwards married one Robert Horne." END OF QUOTE.
For sources, Mr. Craik states in a footnote that his version of
Charles Brandon's first two marriages is taken from "the account given
by John Hales, in his 'Declaration of the Succession of the Crown
Imperial of England,' written in 1563. Craik adds: "Hales, a
contemporary, is evidently well informed, and his tract was written
with the object of supporting the claim of Brandon's descendants to
the Crown." Mr. Craik correctly supposes that Anne Browne's father is
be the same person as the Anthony Browne who married Margaret
Neville's sister, Lucy Neville. But this did not make the two ladies
related to one another. Anne Browne was Lucy Neville's step-daughter,
not her daughter.
Regarding Margaret Neville's third marriage to Robert Horne, Craik
supplies the following source: Dugdale, I, 308.
I checked my personal copy of Dugdale this morning. I find that in
his account of Margaret Neville's father, "John Nevill, Marques of
Mountague," in Volume I, pg. 308, he lists Margaret Neville as John
Neville's daughter and states that she married "Sir John Mortimer,
Knight, and afterwards Robert Horne." His source for Margaret's
marriages appears to be something entitled "Catal. of Nobil." by R.B.
In this instance, I believe William Dugdale has made a slight error.
The contemporary records show that Margaret Neville married in
succession John Mortimer, Knt., Charles Brandon, Knt. (afterwards Duke
of Suffolk), and Robert Downes, Gent. (in that order). I assume that
Dugdale's source ("R.B.") mistakenly entered Robert Downes' name as
Robert Horne. If so, that would explain why I can find no record of
Margaret Neville's marriage to any Robert Horne, and also why Complete
Peerage makes no reference to this marriage.
However, as we've seen repeatedly again and again, errors that get in
print often stay in print long after they have been disproven.
Margaret Neville's alleged Horne marriage was mentioned in print as
late as 1984 in Kathy Lynn Emerson's book, Wives and Daughters: The
Women of Sixteenth Century England, pg. 160. This is all the more
reason to double check statements found in print, be they in Dugdale,
Craik, Emerson, or for that matter Richardson. In this case, Mr.
Craik and Mr. Dugdale cited their source, so it is easy to trace the
origin of the error of Margaret Neville's Horne marriage back to that
pesky "R.B."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Brad Verity
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On Sep 7, 11:09 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
So, a biased account.
"A Catalogue and Succession of the Kings, Princes, Marquesses, Earles,
and Viscounts, of this Realme of England, since the Norman Conquest,
to this present yeere 1619. Together with their Armes, Wives, and
Children; the times of their Deaths and Burials" by Ralph Brooke, York
Herald (London, 1619).
There had been previous genealogies of English nobility, but these had
been manuscripts in private collections. Brooke's was the first to
actually be printed and circulated. There were enough errors that
Augustine Vincent, Windsor Herald, published a book of Corrections in
1622, and Ralph Brooke published a second edition, correcting many
errors from the first edition, in 1622.
Yep.
Refreshing self-awareness.
Now you can go and check Ralph Brooke's 'Catalogue of Nobility'. Have
fun.
Cheers, ------Brad
For sources, Mr. Craik states in a footnote that his version of
Charles Brandon's first two marriages is taken from "the account given
by John Hales, in his 'Declaration of the Succession of the Crown
Imperial of England,' written in 1563. Craik adds: "Hales, a
contemporary, is evidently well informed, and his tract was written
with the object of supporting the claim of Brandon's descendants to
the Crown."
So, a biased account.
I checked my personal copy of Dugdale this morning. I find that in
his account of Margaret Neville's father, "John Nevill, Marques of
Mountague," in Volume I, pg. 308, he lists Margaret Neville as John
Neville's daughter and states that she married "Sir John Mortimer,
Knight, and afterwards Robert Horne." His source for Margaret's
marriages appears to be something entitled "Catal. of Nobil." by R.B.
"A Catalogue and Succession of the Kings, Princes, Marquesses, Earles,
and Viscounts, of this Realme of England, since the Norman Conquest,
to this present yeere 1619. Together with their Armes, Wives, and
Children; the times of their Deaths and Burials" by Ralph Brooke, York
Herald (London, 1619).
There had been previous genealogies of English nobility, but these had
been manuscripts in private collections. Brooke's was the first to
actually be printed and circulated. There were enough errors that
Augustine Vincent, Windsor Herald, published a book of Corrections in
1622, and Ralph Brooke published a second edition, correcting many
errors from the first edition, in 1622.
However, as we've seen repeatedly again and again, errors that get in
print often stay in print long after they have been disproven.
Yep.
Margaret Neville's alleged Horne marriage was mentioned in print as
late as 1984 in Kathy Lynn Emerson's book, Wives and Daughters: The
Women of Sixteenth Century England, pg. 160. This is all the more
reason to double check statements found in print, be they in Dugdale,
Craik, Emerson, or for that matter Richardson.
Refreshing self-awareness.
In this case, Mr.
Craik and Mr. Dugdale cited their source, so it is easy to trace the
origin of the error of Margaret Neville's Horne marriage back to that
pesky "R.B."
Now you can go and check Ralph Brooke's 'Catalogue of Nobility'. Have
fun.
Cheers, ------Brad
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J
On Sep 7, 5:02 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > Margaret Neville's alleged Horne marriage was mentioned in print
as
< > late as 1984 in Kathy Lynn Emerson's book, Wives and Daughters:
The
< > Women of Sixteenth Century England, pg. 160. This is all the more
< > reason to double check statements found in print, be they in
Dugdale,
< > Craik, Emerson, or for that matter Richardson.
<
< Refreshing self-awareness.
Richardson makes his share of mistakkes.
DR
< > Margaret Neville's alleged Horne marriage was mentioned in print
as
< > late as 1984 in Kathy Lynn Emerson's book, Wives and Daughters:
The
< > Women of Sixteenth Century England, pg. 160. This is all the more
< > reason to double check statements found in print, be they in
Dugdale,
< > Craik, Emerson, or for that matter Richardson.
<
< Refreshing self-awareness.
Richardson makes his share of mistakkes.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage John
Margret Neville married 1st Sir John Mortimer and 2nd Robert Horne
Source: A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB & Ireland
Vol 2: page 287
Brendan Wilson
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:48:37 -0700, Douglas Richardson
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
Source: A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB & Ireland
Vol 2: page 287
Brendan Wilson
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:48:37 -0700, Douglas Richardson
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 454-460 (sub Suffolk) has a good
account of the life of King Henry VIII's well known brother-in-law,
Charles Brandon, K.G., 1st Duke of Suffolk.
Regarding his various wives, the following is stated regarding his
marriage to Margaret Neville on page 458:
"He then married before 7 Feb. 1506/7 Margaret (born 1466), ... widow
of Sir John Mortimer (died before 12 Nov, 1504), 3rd daughter and coh.
of John (Neville), Marquess of Montagu, by Isabel, daughter and coh.
of Sir Edmund Ingaldesthorpe, of Borough Green, co. Cambridge. This
marriage was declared void by the Archdeaconry Court of London, about
1507, and by Papal Bull, dated at Orvieto, 12 May 1528."
On page 458, footnote g, it is further related that Margaret, Lady
Mortimer, married, 3rdly, about Feb. 1521/2, Robert Downes, who was
living, 15 Oct. 1524. She died 31 Jan. 1527/8."
Margaret Neville's 3rd marriage to Robert Downes, Gentleman, is proven
by a Chancery Proceeding dated 1518-1529, which is found in the
National Archives catalog:
C 1/498/7
Robert Downes, gentleman, and Margaret, his wife, late the wife of
John Mortymer, knight. v. Robert Brown and Anne, his wife, late the
wife of James Framyngham, knight 'naturall' daughter of the said
Margaret, Antony Wingfield, knight, and William Waller.: Bond
collusively obtained settling lands of the said Margaret on Anne, in
tail. (Decree endorsed.) Subpoena and injunction.: Suffolk, Middlesex,
Worcester.
The above lawsuit also names Margaret Neville's illegitimate daughter,
Anne, wife successively of Sir James Framyngham and Robert Brown.
This daughter is not mentioned by Complete Peerage.
I also find various sources which allege that Margaret Neville had
another marriage to either John Horne, Thomas Horne, or Robert Horne.
See, for example, Kathy Lynn Emerson, Wives and Daughters: The Women
of Sixteenth Century England (1984): 160.
If Margaret Neville's Horne marriage can be confirmed, it would
obviously be a new addition to Complete Peerage's Suffolk account.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.