Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre Wyard, W

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Douglas Richardson

Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre Wyard, W

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 sep 2007 22:33:50

Dear Newsgroup ~

Compete Peerage, 3 (1913): 316-317 (sub Clinton); 4 (1916): 155-156
(sub De La Warr) has a good account of the life of Thomas West, K.G.,
8th Lord La Warre, 5th Lord West, who died in 1525. Regarding his
first marriage to Elizabeth Mortimer, the following information is
provided:

"He married, 1stly, Elizabeth, sister and h. of Sir John Mortimer, and
daughter of Hugh Mortimer, of Mortimer's Hall, Hants, by Eleanor,
daughter of John Cornwall." END OF QUOTE.

It has been noted already in the past in earlier threads that
Elizabeth Mortimer, wife of Sir Thomas West, was not the heiress of
her brother, Sir John Mortimer. Rather, Sir John Mortimer is known to
have died in 1504, whereas Elizabeth Mortimer, wife of Sir Thomas
West, died 29 June 1502. As such, Sir John Mortimer's heir in 1504
was Elizabeth Mortimer's eldest son, Thomas West the younger.

As far as I can tell, earlier discussions here on the newsgroup were
unable to identify Mortimer's Hall in Hampshire, where Elizabeth
(Mortimer) West's father, Hugh Mortimer, allegedly resided.

Actually, Elizabeth (Mortimer) West's father was Sir Hugh Mortimer,
and he resided at Kyre Wyard, Worcestershire and Sapey, Shropshire,
not in Hampshire. He died in 1460, and was survived by his widow,
Eleanor Cornwall, who married (2nd) Sir Richard Croft.

For further particulars regarding Sir Hugh Mortimer, see Notes &
Queries, 4th ser. 10 (1872): 226. This source can be found at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FGICAA ... r%27s+Hall

Additional information can be found on Sir Hugh Mortimer in VCH
Worcester, 4 (1924): 279-285, 289-297. This material can be found at
the following weblinks:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ortimer%22

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ortimer%22

Lastly, I note that the online Stirnet database identifies Eleanor
Cornwall, wife of Sir Hugh Mortimer and Sir Richard Croft, as the
daughter of Edmund Cornwall, of Burford, Shropshire, not John
Cornwall. I believe that Stirnet is correct. If so, this would be
yet another correction for Complete Peerage. For the chart of the
Cornwall family on stirnet, see the following weblink:

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... ewall1.htm

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Higgins

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre Wyar

Legg inn av John Higgins » 05 sep 2007 01:39:49

As the cited reference from Notes and Queries indicates, Sapey (one of the
residences of Sir Hugh Mortimer) is in Herefordshire, not Shropshire as
stated by DR - a fact which can easily be verified by checking on-line
gazetteers of the UK.

There is apparently a monument to Sir Hugh Mortimer (and possibly his tomb)
in the church of St Peter in Martley, Worcestershire. Sir Hugh may have
died at the battle of Sandal or been beheaded shortly thereafter.

And there are certainly more authoritative [and older] sources than Stirnet
to support the parentage of Elizabeth Cornwall, despite CP's probable
mis-statement in this regard. See for example "The House of Cornewall", by
the 4th Earl of Liverpool and Compton Reade, published in 1908, which in
turn cites an 1808 reference. And Brad Verity pointed out in 2005 in this
group that the tomb of Eleanor and her second husband Sir Richard Croft says
that her father was Edmund, not John. In other words, this confusion
regarding her father is old news....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre
Wyard,Worcestershire & Sapey, Shropshire


Dear Newsgroup ~

Compete Peerage, 3 (1913): 316-317 (sub Clinton); 4 (1916): 155-156
(sub De La Warr) has a good account of the life of Thomas West, K.G.,
8th Lord La Warre, 5th Lord West, who died in 1525. Regarding his
first marriage to Elizabeth Mortimer, the following information is
provided:

"He married, 1stly, Elizabeth, sister and h. of Sir John Mortimer, and
daughter of Hugh Mortimer, of Mortimer's Hall, Hants, by Eleanor,
daughter of John Cornwall." END OF QUOTE.

It has been noted already in the past in earlier threads that
Elizabeth Mortimer, wife of Sir Thomas West, was not the heiress of
her brother, Sir John Mortimer. Rather, Sir John Mortimer is known to
have died in 1504, whereas Elizabeth Mortimer, wife of Sir Thomas
West, died 29 June 1502. As such, Sir John Mortimer's heir in 1504
was Elizabeth Mortimer's eldest son, Thomas West the younger.

As far as I can tell, earlier discussions here on the newsgroup were
unable to identify Mortimer's Hall in Hampshire, where Elizabeth
(Mortimer) West's father, Hugh Mortimer, allegedly resided.

Actually, Elizabeth (Mortimer) West's father was Sir Hugh Mortimer,
and he resided at Kyre Wyard, Worcestershire and Sapey, Shropshire,
not in Hampshire. He died in 1460, and was survived by his widow,
Eleanor Cornwall, who married (2nd) Sir Richard Croft.

For further particulars regarding Sir Hugh Mortimer, see Notes &
Queries, 4th ser. 10 (1872): 226. This source can be found at the
following weblink:


http://books.google.com/books?id=FGICAA ... +Hugh+Mort

imer%27s+Hall
Additional information can be found on Sir Hugh Mortimer in VCH
Worcester, 4 (1924): 279-285, 289-297. This material can be found at
the following weblinks:


http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... %22Hugh%20

Mortimer%22

Mortimer%22
Lastly, I note that the online Stirnet database identifies Eleanor
Cornwall, wife of Sir Hugh Mortimer and Sir Richard Croft, as the
daughter of Edmund Cornwall, of Burford, Shropshire, not John
Cornwall. I believe that Stirnet is correct. If so, this would be
yet another correction for Complete Peerage. For the chart of the
Cornwall family on stirnet, see the following weblink:

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... ewall1.htm

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Douglas Richardson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre Wyar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 sep 2007 04:51:48

On Sep 4, 6:39 pm, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
< As the cited reference from Notes and Queries indicates, Sapey (one
of the
< residences of Sir Hugh Mortimer) is in Herefordshire, not Shropshire
as
< stated by DR - a fact which can easily be verified by checking on-
line
< gazetteers of the UK.

Yes, you're entirely correct. Thank you for catching my mistake.

< There is apparently a monument to Sir Hugh Mortimer (and possibly
his tomb)
< in the church of St Peter in Martley, Worcestershire. Sir Hugh may
have
< died at the battle of Sandal or been beheaded shortly thereafter.

Sir Hugh Mortimer's burial at Martley, Worcestershire s discussed in
the second VCH Worcester link which I provided earlier. Since you
evidently missed this citation, I'll provide it again:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ortimer%22

There is also additional information on the Mortimer and West families
in the book, The Picards or Pychards of Stradewy, now Tretower,
castle, etc., published in 1878, on page 62. This material can be
found at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rmABAA ... r#PPA62,M1

The Picards-Pychards book indicates that Sir Hugh Mortimer was styled
"of Martley, Worcestershire" in a Coram Rege roll dated the year
following his death. Sir Hugh's residence at Martley would explain
why he was buried in that parish. Thus, Elizabeth (Mortimer) West's
father was Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Martley, Worcestershire, not
Mortimer's Hall, Hampshire as stated by Complete Peerage. In fact,
Sir Hugh Mortimer doesn't seem to have owned any property in Hampshire
at all! This makes it all the more odd that this error should have
occured in the first place.

I get the impression this is one of those common copyist errors. One
historian copies from another who copies from another and so forth.
No one ever bothers to check the information for accuracy.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

taf

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Sir Hugh Mortimer, of Kyre Wyar

Legg inn av taf » 05 sep 2007 08:03:26

On Sep 4, 8:51 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

I get the impression this is one of those common copyist errors. One
historian copies from another who copies from another and so forth.
No one ever bothers to check the information for accuracy.

Not even a "trained historian", apparently. As I said, process, not
outcome.

Maybe with this quality training, you can answer this for me. What is
the bloody use of there being three separate newsgroups for different
topics if people then post everything they write to all three groups?

Here is a project for you. Go to the other two groups. Look at the
first dozen or so threads. Do you see any discussion of issues like
those you are raising (other than your own posts)? George Tenet; Most
Villainous Villain; The Pentagon and Iraq; National Health Service;
Chinese Military Hacking Pentagon Computers, and on and on and on, and
almost all of it crossposted. Those are the communities you are
inviting to join us. Is that what you want this group to become? Is
that what you want to invite here? Think, man. Not about your 'rights'
or Google's rules or your 'training', but about whether you want to
have a group in which you can promote your ideas or just a useless
cesspool. Hines is already doing his best to crosspost this group into
the outhouse without your help.

taf

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