Sir Roland Veleville (alias Roland Brittany), alleged bastar

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Douglas Richardson

Sir Roland Veleville (alias Roland Brittany), alleged bastar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 sep 2007 05:35:39

Dear Newsgroup ~

Searching through various sources which concern the family of Owen
Tudor and his wife, Katherine of France, widow of King Henry V, I've
encountered various irregularites in the way historians and
genealogists have handled this important family.

For instance, Sir Roland Veleville is often assigned as an
illegitimate son of King Henry VII of England. See, for example,
Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Families (2002): 151. This placement of
Roland as King Henry VII's bastard was disputed some time ago,
however, by the well known Tudor historian, S.B. Chrimes, in an
article which appeared in Welsh History Review, 3 (1966-67): 287-289.
Mr. Chrimes stated:

"It seems to be clear that this allegation is derived entirely from
mis-statements made as long ago as 1833 by that enthusiastic but
frequently inaccurate amateur historian of Anglesey, Angharad Llwyd.
She, in her pioneering prize-essay, A History of the Island of Mona or
Anglesey, made the following assertions (pp. 131-2):

'I find by the Lleweny Papers that, in the 1st of Henry VII, he
appointed his illegitimate son, Sir Roland Velville, alias Britany,
constable and captain of this place (Beaumaris), but the conduct of
the garrison, was so offensive to the neighbourhood, that the king
gave orders for its removal. Lord Combermere, of Combermere Abbey, is
in possession of the original grant of the constableship to his
maternal ancestor, Syr R. Velville, dated 'apud Caernarvon, Julii 3,
1st Henry VII', he died in 1533, describing himself in his will, made
in that year, as 'constable of Beaumaris Castell'.'" END OF QUOTE.

Mr. Chrimes was clearly in error as to origin of the date of the claim
regarding Roland Veleville's bastardy. In a subsequent issue of Welsh
History Review, 15 (1991): 351-367, W. R. B. Robinson pointed out that
Roland Veleville is described as "reputed base son of Henry VII" in
Pennant Tour of Wales, 2 (1783): 244-245. Robinson also noted that a
letter dated 1636/7 by John Salusbury stated: "... and whose sone
Veleville was, I doubt not you have heard." Likewise, it was pointed
out that Veleville "was referred to as a 'man of a kingly line' in an
elegy composed on his death in 1535 by the Anglesey bard, Dafydd Alaw.

In the recent biography of Jane Veleville's daughter, Katheryn of
Berain, which is published in the new Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography (2004), the author of this piece, Enid Roberts, states the
following:

"It was firmly, if incorrectly, believed that Sir Roland [Veleville]
was the son of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII) and a Breton lady; he was
knighted at the coronation of Henry VIII in 1509, appointed constable
of Beaumaris Castle, and given the king's moiety of the Tudor property
in Penmynydd together with other lands in Anglesey." END OF QUOTE.

We are not told who "firmly believed" that Roland Veleville was the
son of King Henry VII. In fact, Ms. Roberts makes NO reference to the
two principal articles in print on Roland Veleville by Chrimes and
Robinson in Welsh History Review which are cited above.

Elsewhere, in her ODNB biography of Katheryn of Berain's son, Thomas
Salusbury, Ms. Roberts is a bit more specific as to who believed that
Roland Veleville was the son of King Henry VII:

"There is no doubt that sixteenth-century Welsh poets, heralds, and
genealogists firmly (if mistakenly) believed that Katheryn's
grandfather Sir Roland de Veleville was the son of Henry Tudor (later
Henry VII) and a Breton lady." END OF QUOTE.

Unless Chrimes and Robinson missed many important sources, however, it
appears that Ms. Roberts has overstated the historical record.
Whatever the case, Roberts is certainly in error in her statement that
Roland Veleville was granted "the king's moiety of the Tudor property
in Penmynydd." Both Chrimes and Robinson specifically state that
Velville was not granted land at Penmynydd by Henry VII. Robinson
provides the following information:

"Six acquisitions by him [Roland Veleville] are recorded in documents
surviving in the Lleweni papers, and four of these are grants by Owen
ap John ab Owen ap Tudor Fychan, a member of the senior branch of the
Tudor family, of parcels of land in the ancestral Tudor estate of
Penmynydd." END OF QUOTE.

Thus, Roland Veleville obtained land at Penmynydd not by grant of King
Henry VII or King Henry VIII, but by grant of Owen ap John ab Owen ap
Tudor Fychan. Thus, this was not the king's property as Roberts has
alleged.

Neither Chrimes nor Robinson, nor even Roberts, were/are apparently
aware that Jane Veleville, wife of Tudur ap Robert, and daughter of
Sir Roland Veleville, is identified as a daughter of Owen Tudor and
Queen Katherine in Tudor family pedigree found in Harleian MS. 1974,
modern folio 111. This Harleian MS. is said to be probably mainly of
Jacob Chaloner, who died in 1631. Jane's placement in this early
Tudor pedigree was noted by Peter Bartrum in his work, Welsh
Genealogies, 1400-1500, 8 (1983): 1284 [Marchudd 13(A)].

Yet Mr. Bartrum cancelled this placement in his Additions &
Corrections, 3rd List (2002), having realized that this Jane is
doubtless the same woman as Jane, daughter of Sir Roland Veleville
(alias Brittany), who is mentioned in another chart in Welsh
Genealogies, 1400-1500, 8 (1983): 1265 [Marchudd 6 (B1)]. However,
Bartrum evidently did not realize (or chose not to comment) that Sir
Roland Veleville himself had been identified by some as a descendant
of Owen Tudor and Queen Katherine. If Roland Veleville really had a
Tudor connection, it would explain why his daughter, Jane, was added
to the pre-1631 Harleian pedigree of the Tudor family, albeit in the
wrong place. This pedigree is thus one more piece to add to this
interesting genealogical puzzle.

Further particulars on many of these matters can be found in the
following website devoted to Roland Veleveille:

http://www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/roland.htm

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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