Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Dana S. Leslie

Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 02 sep 2007 01:17:39

I have found two women named Theodegotho: a daughter of Theodoric The Great,
who is married to Alaric II of the Visigoths; And a Granddaughter of
Theodoric The Great, who is married to Sigusmund of the Burgundians. Are
these, in fact, the same woman, and, if so, what is her correct relationship
to Theodoric?

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

Thank you.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

taf

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av taf » 02 sep 2007 03:06:59

On Sep 1, 5:17 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

Don't know about your first question, but Gundiok and Gundioch are the
same name. Perhaps other in the two pedigrees are also the same names,
simply represented differently.

taf

CE Wood

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av CE Wood » 02 sep 2007 03:52:44

From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:

1 Theoderic I The Grand King Of Ostrogoths Of Italy b: Abt 454 d: 26
Aug 526
2 Ostrogotho Ariagni d: Abt 520
+ Sigismund King Of The Burgundians d: 523
3 Sergeric d: 523
3 (Unk) Of Burgundy
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533
2 Theudigota
+ Alaric II King Of Visigoths d: 507
3 Gesalaric King Of Visigoths d: 511
3 Amalaric King Of Visigoths d: 531
+ Clotilda b: Abt 502 d: 531
3 Eustere b: Abt 494 d: 521
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533

CE Wood

On Sep 1, 5:17 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
I have found two women named Theodegotho: a daughter of Theodoric The Great,
who is married to Alaric II of the Visigoths; And a Granddaughter of
Theodoric The Great, who is married to Sigusmund of the Burgundians. Are
these, in fact, the same woman, and, if so, what is her correct relationship
to Theodoric?

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

Thank you.
--

Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideashttp://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

taf

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av taf » 02 sep 2007 04:30:03

On Sep 1, 7:52 pm, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:

1 Theoderic I The Grand King Of Ostrogoths Of Italy b: Abt 454 d: 26
Aug 526
2 Ostrogotho Ariagni d: Abt 520
+ Sigismund King Of The Burgundians d: 523
3 Sergeric d: 523
3 (Unk) Of Burgundy
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533
2 Theudigota
+ Alaric II King Of Visigoths d: 507
3 Gesalaric King Of Visigoths d: 511
3 Amalaric King Of Visigoths d: 531
+ Clotilda b: Abt 502 d: 531
3 Eustere b: Abt 494 d: 521
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533

Did Theoderic really marry first cousins? Unless there is a source
that explicitly says this, I would be concerned that this represents
two alternative solutions to a single vague relationship.

taf

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 02 sep 2007 05:43:38

Well, this gave me some new info I didn't have, such as the Existence of
Theuderic I's second wife, Eustere.

But Leo's database gives an additional sib to Ostrogotho Ariagni and
Theudigota, a brother named Theodoric. And he has a daughter also named
Theodogotho. It is this second Theodogotho who is married to Sigusmund\\, K.
of Burgundians. I just want to be sure that the two Theodogothos (aunt and
niece) are *really* distinct persons.

BTW, the (unk) of Burgundy who married Theuderic I, I have many times seen
named Suavegotta.

Now, as to my second question, about the two lines of Burgundians, they do
have seemingly similar names, but different connections, and, I think,
sufficiently disparate dates to rule out their identity. But, I'll have to
take another look to make sure of that, and it will probably be easier to
resolve this issue after resolving the two Theodogothos issue.

Thanks.

Dana
the Burgundian question I originally asked,


"CE Wood" <wood_ce@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1188701564.189248.324070@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:

1 Theoderic I The Grand King Of Ostrogoths Of Italy b: Abt 454 d: 26
Aug 526
2 Ostrogotho Ariagni d: Abt 520
+ Sigismund King Of The Burgundians d: 523
3 Sergeric d: 523
3 (Unk) Of Burgundy
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533
2 Theudigota
+ Alaric II King Of Visigoths d: 507
3 Gesalaric King Of Visigoths d: 511
3 Amalaric King Of Visigoths d: 531
+ Clotilda b: Abt 502 d: 531
3 Eustere b: Abt 494 d: 521
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533

CE Wood

On Sep 1, 5:17 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
I have found two women named Theodegotho: a daughter of Theodoric The
Great,
who is married to Alaric II of the Visigoths; And a Granddaughter of
Theodoric The Great, who is married to Sigusmund of the Burgundians. Are
these, in fact, the same woman, and, if so, what is her correct
relationship
to Theodoric?

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

Thank you.
--

Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideashttp://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 02 sep 2007 05:50:29

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1188703803.274870.128680@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 1, 7:52 pm, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:

1 Theoderic I The Grand King Of Ostrogoths Of Italy b: Abt 454 d: 26
Aug 526
2 Ostrogotho Ariagni d: Abt 520
+ Sigismund King Of The Burgundians d: 523
3 Sergeric d: 523
3 (Unk) Of Burgundy
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533
2 Theudigota
+ Alaric II King Of Visigoths d: 507
3 Gesalaric King Of Visigoths d: 511
3 Amalaric King Of Visigoths d: 531
+ Clotilda b: Abt 502 d: 531
3 Eustere b: Abt 494 d: 521
+ Theoderic I King Of Reims And Thuringe b: Abt 485 d: 533

Did Theoderic really marry first cousins? Unless there is a source
that explicitly says this, I would be concerned that this represents
two alternative solutions to a single vague relationship.

I have the same concern. But, given all the still more problematic couplings
reported by Gregory of Tours, this consideration seems FAR from decisive.

gbh

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av gbh » 02 sep 2007 09:37:38

On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:17:39 -0400, "Dana S. Leslie"
<dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

I have found two women named Theodegotho: a daughter of Theodoric The Great,
who is married to Alaric II of the Visigoths; And a Granddaughter of
Theodoric The Great, who is married to Sigusmund of the Burgundians. Are
these, in fact, the same woman, and, if so, what is her correct relationship
to Theodoric?


It's probably the same woman, just that different sources give
different information. No idea what is historically correct, but
here's what Jordanes says in Getica LVIII (297):

'Now before he had a child from Audefleda, Theodoric had children of a
concubine, daughters begotten in Moesia, one named Thiudigoto and
another Ostrogotho. Soon after he came to Italy, he gave them in
marriage to neighboring kings, one to Alaric, king of the Visigoths,
and the other to Sigismund, king of the Burgundians.'

Jordanes seems to suggest that Thiudigoto married Alaric and
Ostrogotho married Sigismund, but it was the other way around. Bill
Marshall has got it right.

Ostrogotho has a different name in other sources, variously spelt
Arevagni or Ariagna.

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

They're just variant spellings of the same name.

gbh

Christopher Ingham

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 02 sep 2007 10:48:00

On Sep 1, 8:17 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
I have found two women named Theodegotho: a daughter of Theodoric The Great,
who is married to Alaric II of the Visigoths; And a Granddaughter of
Theodoric The Great, who is married to Sigusmund of the Burgundians. Are
these, in fact, the same woman, and, if so, what is her correct relationship
to Theodoric?

Also, I have found two separate lines of Burgundians: one headed by a
Gundiok,
and the other by a Gundioch. But I have not found a connection between the
two lines. Is there one, and, if so, where?

Thank you.
--

Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideashttp://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

According to the genealogical charts in H. Wolfram,_The Roman Empire
and Its Germanic Peoples_(Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1997), and T.
Burns,_A History of the Ostrogoths_(Bloomington, 1984), Gundioc/
Gundiok/Gundovech are the same person. His grandson, the Burgundian
crown prince (later king) Sigismund (d. 523), married Ostrogotho-
Areagni, daughter of Theodoric I (d. 526), king of the Ostrogoths, and
Audefleda, sister of Clovis. A son of Sigismund and Ostrogotho,
Sigeric (d. 522, is shown, as is a daughter, Suavegotho, who married
Theuderic I (d. 534), king of the Franks, son of Clovis.

The eldest daughter of Theodoric I, Theodegotho, married Alaric II (d.
507), king of the Visigoths; and they had a son, Amalaric (d. 531).
Gesalec was an older half-brother of the latter, by an earlier, "not
fully valid," marriage of Alaric. The sources cited above do not
indicate another daughter, [Unk], although they are not genealogical
essays per se.

Christopher Ingham

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»