Correction to DNB and new ODNB: King Henry VII's alleged unc

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Douglas Richardson

Correction to DNB and new ODNB: King Henry VII's alleged unc

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 31 aug 2007 07:06:32

Dear Newsgroup ~

The new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (or ODNB) states that
King Henry VII of England had a paternal uncle named Owen Tudor "who
is also referred to as Edward" who "became a Benedictine monk at
Westminster Abbey." [Reference: ODNB, Owen Tudor (c.1400-1461): doi:
10.1093/ref:odnb/27797]. The author who prepared this statement is
the well known and highly respected historian, R. A. Griffiths, whose
work I greatly admire. The old Dictionary of National Biography (or
DNB.), 19 (1909): 1217-1218 (biog. of Owen Tudor) likewise claims that
King King Henry VII had a paternal uncle who "became a monk at
Westminster" but the uncle's name is not given in the DNB account.

My research has revealed a different story about this alleged uncle.
For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any clear record of this
person's life. If such an individual existed, he certainly wasn't a
Benedictine monk at Westminster Abbey. This was disproven long ago by
the historian, Ernest Pearce. Yet the myth continues to be repeated
in print that Owen Tudor was a monk at Westminster Abbey as if his
existence as a monk was fully documented. Nor is there any record
that was he called Edward, as stated bt Mr. Griffiths, except in a
late date secondary source. Yet the name Edward has re-surfaced in
the new ODNB, as if it was taken from a primary contemporary record of
this person's life.

Indeed the first reference that I've found so far to an Owen Tudor
occurs in the reign of King Henry VII in 1498, when the king made a
payment of £2 in reward to an unidentified Owen Tudor. This
individual is NOT styled the king's uncle in this record, as is often
the case with royal uncles. Presumably this is the same Owen Tudor
who died in 1501, who is mentioned in churchwardens' records of St.
Margaret's, Westminster. King Henry VII paid £3 1s. 2d. towards the
expenses of this individual's burial in 1502. While this evidence is
mildly suggestive, it is hardly conclusive evidence that this person
was the king's uncle, or even a near relation. Be that as it may, the
historian Bentley believed without question that this Owen Tudor was
the same person as King Henry VII's uncle.

For interest's sake, I've posted below what little I know of the
alleged uncle, Owen Tudor. For what it is worth, I do believe that
there was a Tudor uncle named Owen or Edward Tudor, but that he died
in infancy or young adulthood. How the story came about that he was a
monk at Westminster Abbey is unknown to me. However, as we have seen
before, historians like genealogists are often loath to dispense with
traditional stories that are in error, especially when they have been
repeated countless times in the printed literature.

In the obvious absence of primary records, I would think it necessary
to examine the available early pedigrees of the Tudor family to see if
this uncle is named in them. If he is not so named, I would think it
is entirely possible that this alleged uncle of King Henry VII could
well be spurious. This matter deserves further study.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, M.A., History

+ + + + + + + + + + +
I. ?OWEN (or ?EDWARD) TUDOR, third son. Very little is known of his
life, if he even existed. His is called Owen Tudor in most published
sources. He allegedly became a Benedictine monk at Westminster
Abbey. The historian Pearce has shown, however, that no record exists
of a monk of that name in the corresponding time period. According to
Camden, who called him Edward, he is allegedly buried in the chapel of
St. Blaise in Westminster Abbey near the tomb of Abbot Nicholas
Litlington. Surviving privy purse records mention a certain Owen
Tudor who received a payment of £2 in reward from King Henry VII in
1498. Presumably he is the same Owen Tudor who died in 1501, the
knell for whose death or funeral is noted in the contemporary
churchwardens' records of St. Margaret's, Westminster. Privy puse
records indicate that King Henry VII paid £3 1s. 2d. towards the
expenses of the burial of this individual in 1502. The historian
Bentley believed that this Owen Tudor was the same person as King
Henry VII's uncle, but this has never been proven. The theory
advanced by Pearce that Owen Tudor is the same person as Edward
Bridgewater, a known monk at Westminster Abbey, who died c.1471,
appears to be groundless.

References:

Bentley, Excerpta Historica (1833): 119 (Privy Purses Expenses of King
Henry VII dated 1498: "To Owen Tuddor in rewarde, £2; editorial note:
"The King's uncle, he being the third son of Katherine, widow of Henry
V. by Owen Tudor. He was a monk at Westminster, and in the 16 Hen.
VII. is a payment for burying him. In the Churchwardens' accounts of
St. Margaret's, Westminster, 1501, 6d. are mentioned as paid for 'the
knell of Owen Tudor with the bell.'"), 128 (Privy Purses Expenses of
King Henry VII dated 1502: "To Morgan Kidwelly for burying of Owen
Tudder, £3 1s. 2d.; editorial note: "Kidwelly was Attorney-General to
Richard III, whom he deserted. He was a Knight, and one of the
Commissioners for levying an aid in the county of Dorset in 1503.").

Banks, The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 4 (1837): 378-380
("Owen Tudor, third son of Owen Tudor and queen Catherine, took upon
him a religious habit in the abbey of Westminster.").

Stanley, Hist. Memorials of Westminster Abbey (1868): 357.

The Antiquary 3 (1881): 242.

D.N.B. 19 (1909): 1217-1218 (biog. of Owen Tudor [Sr.]) (states Owen
Tudor, [Senior] and Queen Katherine "had three sons, of whom Edmund
and Jasper are separately noticed; and a third became a monk at
Westminster ... [and] two daughters ... of whom one became a nun, and the
other, Jacinta, is said to have married Reginald, lord Grey de
Wilton.").

Broadley, Doctor Johnson and Mrs. Thrale (1910): 280-281.

Pearce, The Monks of Westminster (1916): 7 (author mentions that
Stanley, Memorials refers to "Owen, third son of Owen Tudor, and uncle
of Henry VII,' who 'lies in the chapel of St. Blaize.' "It is, of
course, possible that this Owen Tudor entered our house [i.e.,
Westminster] and took another Christian name and another surname.
Stanley repeats the statement on two other occasions, but neither an
Owen nor a Tudor is to be found among our monks of that or any other
date. If Stanley had consulted Camden (Reges, &c.), he would have
seen that the son of Owen Tudor who found a home in our house and was
buried, near Abbot Litlington, 'in capella Sancti Blasii qua intratur
ad Vestiarium,' was called Edward, and under the head of Edward
Bridgewater [q.v.], who entered the Convent in 1465-6 and said his
first mass three years later, I have indicated my reasons for
conjecturing that this man may be Edward Tudor. "), 161 ("Camden
(Reges, &c.) records the burial in the Chapel of St. Blaise of
Edwardus monachus Westmonasteriensis, son of Owen Tudor by Queen
Katharine, widow of Henry V ... The only other Edward on our list at
this period is Edward Boteler [q.v.], who was transferred to St.
Milburga's Priory at Wenlock; so we are left with the option of
identifying Edward Bridgewater with Camden's Edward Tudor." Stanley
(Memorials, 3rd ed. 1869, pp. 170 n.; 395; 412) thrice repeats a
statement, taken from Sandford, Geneal. Hist. ed. 1677, p. 285, that
Owen, son of Owen Tudor, became a Westminster monk, and that statement
has been reproduced by subsequent writers. On p. 170 n. he gives a
reference to Crull, Antiquities, p. 233 (3rd ed. i. 251), who has
correctly taken the name Edward from Camden.").

Rowse, Bosworth Field & the War of Roses (1966): 225.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Correction to DNB and new ODNB: King Henry VII's alleged

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 sep 2007 05:03:57

Dear Newsgroup ~

Since my last post, the first record I've checked of the Tudor family
is the Welsh source, Llyfr Baglan, or, The Book of Baglan, by John
Williams, published in 1910. The manuscript on which this work is
based was compiled between the years 1600 and 1607.

A snippet view of the source is available at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E7EEAA ... s=1#search

On page 36, the following information is given:

"... The mothere of Edmont ap Owene and Jaspar ap Owen was Caterin,
Queene of England, da. to Charles k. of ffaunce. The wief of Sr dauid
ap Owene, the 3 sone to Owen Tudyr, was Joyes, the da. of Sr Edward
Crofte." END OF QUOTE.

As we can see above, this source indicates that Owen Tudor had two
(not three) sons by Queen Katherine, namely Edmund and Jasper, both of
whom are vouched by many contemporary records which I have seen. No
mention is made of the alleged third son, Owen or Edward. Rather,
reference is made to Sir David Owen, the known bastard son of Owen
Tudor, as being Owen Tudor's third son. Sir David was not a child of
Queen Katherine.

Admittedly, this source is late and not necessarily accurate. Sir
David Owen, for instance, did not marry Joyce Croft. Jioyce was
actually the wife of Sir David's son, Sir Harry Owen [see Siddons,
Visitations by the Heralds in Wales (H.S.P. n.s. 14) (1996): 89 (1531
Visitation) (Croft of Croft pedigree)].

All the same, it is interestingly to see that this Welsh source omits
reference to the alleged third son of Owen Tudor and Queen Katherine
named Owen (or Edward), who the historian Bentley believed was living
as late as 1501.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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