I was in Bristol this afternoon, and called in to St Mary Redcliffe,
called by Good Queen Bess the fairest (and) goodliest parish church in
England". While I might not agree with Her Majesty's enthusiastic
assessment, it is nevertheless a fine church.
In addition to the tomb and monument of Admiral Sir William Penn,
there are a good number of mediaeval monuments, including a brass to
Richard Mede (died 1491) who married a daughter of Sir Thomas
Pauncefot; this shows husband and wife wearing impressive heraldic
cloaks.
In the north transept is a 12th century tomb said to be that of Robert
de Berkeley, who laid down pipes to bring water to the church "circa
1190". It is difficult to give credence to this assertion, as the
first Robert Fitzharding de Berkeley died 20 years before that date,
and his grandson of the same name is said (ODNB) to be buried in
Bristol Cathedral.
Unfortunately, I was unable to tour the cathedral as it was
ludicrously closed to visitors from 3.15 to enable "evensong" (?
afternoon-song) to take place, and everyone was evicted promptly
thereafter. The mediaeval Mayor's Chapel across the Green was also
closed "for renovation".
I had my camera, as usual, if anyone is interested in Pauncefots or
putative Berkeleys...
Kind regards, Michael
Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Vance Mead
Re: Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
I have a photograph of the Mede tomb / chantry in St Mary Redcliffe
at
http://koti.welho.com/lmead/page138.html
This is the tomb to the left, where Philip and Thomas Mede are buried.
To the right John and Richard Mede are buried with their wives.
Richard was the son of Philip; John is probably the son of Thomas ( at
least not mentioned in Philip's will).
The brass (partly obliterated) reads (translated from Latin):
....the aforesaid Thomas Mede and thrice mayor of the town of Bristol,
died the 20th day of December 1475, may God have mercy on their souls.
Amen
The beginning must refer to Philip Mede, who was thrice mayor. Thomas
Mede was the sheriff but never mayor.
Philip Mede's daughter Isabel / Elizabeth married Maurice Lord
Berkeley in 1460.
On Aug 27, 12:33 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
at
http://koti.welho.com/lmead/page138.html
This is the tomb to the left, where Philip and Thomas Mede are buried.
To the right John and Richard Mede are buried with their wives.
Richard was the son of Philip; John is probably the son of Thomas ( at
least not mentioned in Philip's will).
The brass (partly obliterated) reads (translated from Latin):
....the aforesaid Thomas Mede and thrice mayor of the town of Bristol,
died the 20th day of December 1475, may God have mercy on their souls.
Amen
The beginning must refer to Philip Mede, who was thrice mayor. Thomas
Mede was the sheriff but never mayor.
Philip Mede's daughter Isabel / Elizabeth married Maurice Lord
Berkeley in 1460.
On Aug 27, 12:33 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Michael,
I'd be most interested in copies of your Bristol photography.
Many thanks for the offer.
Two possibilities re: the 1190 date for Robert de Berkeley:
1. Maurice was married to Alice de Berkeley in or shortly after
Nov 1153, according to the terms of a marriage contract of that date
made at Bristol (CP II:125-6). His son Robert de Berkeley is 'said'
to have been born ca. 1165. He could easily have been involved in the
1190 transaction, aged say 25 or even a little more.
2. Alice de Berkeley had a brother Robert de Berkeley, of
Dursley, Gloucestershire. He is held to have been married to Helena,
daughter of
Robert fitz Harding (lord of Berkeley) at the same time as his sister
was married to Robert's son Maurice:
'To Robert his son and heir was married, temp. Henry II. at his
father's house at Bristowe, Helena, eldest daughter of the above
Robert Fitzharding. She brought to her husband, amongst others, the
Manor of Dursley in fee, as part of her marriage portion; and for her
dower had assigned her, by her husband's father, the Manor of Siston.
'[CP, ibid.; also, Smyth's Lives of the Berkeley Family]. Robert de
Berkeley of Dursley is stated to have died 12 Jan 1208/09: he could
easily have been the Robert de Berkeley of the alleged 1190 donation.
FYI, Robert de Berkeley of Dursley was an ancestor of the later
Lords Everingham (of Laxton), and thereby of a rather large host,
including Prince William to be sure.
Cheers,
John
On Aug 26, 4:49?pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
I was in Bristol this afternoon, and called in to St Mary Redcliffe,
called by Good Queen Bess the fairest (and) goodliest parish church in
England". While I might not agree with Her Majesty's enthusiastic
assessment, it is nevertheless a fine church.
In addition to the tomb and monument of Admiral Sir William Penn,
there are a good number of mediaeval monuments, including a brass to
Richard Mede (died 1491) who married a daughter of Sir Thomas
Pauncefot; this shows husband and wife wearing impressive heraldic
cloaks.
In the north transept is a 12th century tomb said to be that of Robert
de Berkeley, who laid down pipes to bring water to the church "circa
1190". It is difficult to give credence to this assertion, as the
first Robert Fitzharding de Berkeley died 20 years before that date,
and his grandson of the same name is said (ODNB) to be buried in
Bristol Cathedral.
Unfortunately, I was unable to tour the cathedral as it was
ludicrously closed to visitors from 3.15 to enable "evensong" (?
afternoon-song) to take place, and everyone was evicted promptly
thereafter. The mediaeval Mayor's Chapel across the Green was also
closed "for renovation".
I had my camera, as usual, if anyone is interested in Pauncefots or
putative Berkeleys...
Kind regards, Michael- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
-
Vance Mead
Re: Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
Sorry that should have been 1465. The source is Smyth's "Lives of the
Berkeleys", where he says that Maurice Berkeley was married "in the
30th year of his age."
Vance
On Aug 28, 1:09 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Berkeleys", where he says that Maurice Berkeley was married "in the
30th year of his age."
Vance
On Aug 28, 1:09 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
What is the source for this specific marriage year ?
Thanks
Will
In a message dated 08/27/07 05:30:16 Pacific Standard Time, vance.m...@mead.inet.fi writes:
Philip Mede's daughter Isabel / Elizabeth married Maurice Lord
Berkeley in 1460.
-
Vance Mead
Re: Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
Will
There is a contemporary estimate of his age in Inquisitions Post
Mortem (Hen. VII vol. I, No.775).
"He (William Marquess Berkeley) died without issue 14 Feb. Hen.VII
(1492). Maurice Berkeley Esq., aged 56 and more, is his brother and
heir."
That would make him born 1435-6, depending on how one interprets "and
more."
Vance
On Aug 28, 8:39 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
There is a contemporary estimate of his age in Inquisitions Post
Mortem (Hen. VII vol. I, No.775).
"He (William Marquess Berkeley) died without issue 14 Feb. Hen.VII
(1492). Maurice Berkeley Esq., aged 56 and more, is his brother and
heir."
That would make him born 1435-6, depending on how one interprets "and
more."
Vance
On Aug 28, 8:39 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/27/07 22:35:28 Pacific Standard Time, vance.m...@mead.inet.fi writes:
Sorry that should have been 1465. The source is Smyth's "Lives of the
Berkeleys", where he says that Maurice Berkeley was married "in the
30th year of his age."
Vance
----------------
Thanks Vance, that's explains our discrepancy, as I have Maurice born 1434/5, and a marriage year of 1465. So I suppose the follow-up question is going to depend on quoting what the sources are on his birth or age.
I have Genealogics and also I have Living Descendents Vol2 "Whiteley" so I'll have to look that up again tomorrow and quote it.
Will
-
Vance Mead
Re: Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
Will
According to "Lives of the Berkeleys", Maurice Berkeley died in
September 1506 "then of the age of threescore and ten yeares and odd
months" and "fourteene yeares and seaven months" after the death of
his brother William. Taken together with the IPM account, this would
mean that he was born Jan-Feb of 1436 or the very end of 1435.
Vance
According to "Lives of the Berkeleys", Maurice Berkeley died in
September 1506 "then of the age of threescore and ten yeares and odd
months" and "fourteene yeares and seaven months" after the death of
his brother William. Taken together with the IPM account, this would
mean that he was born Jan-Feb of 1436 or the very end of 1435.
Vance
-
Vance Mead
Re: Mediaeval monuments in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol
----------------------
Thanks Vance, these extra bits are very useful. So if he married his wife Isabel Mead when he was thirty that would put their marriage in 1465/7
---
According to John Smyth, he was married "in the 30th year of his age"
which I take to mean before his 30th birthday. So he was born in early
1436 (1435 Old Style) and he was probably married in 1465.
Vance