Lady Godiva

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Clive West

Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Clive West » 22 aug 2007 19:50:45

In a message of 15th August under this topic Will Johnson raised doubts as to whether Gruffydd ap Llewellyn was the son-in-law of Alfgar and whether Osbert fitz Richard married Nest, the daughter of Gruffydd. The main evidence for these relationships is as follows:

1. According to the chronicler Orderic Vitalis (c. 1075-11420):

"The Earls Edwin and Morcar, sons of the great Earl Aelfgar, were close friends and adherents of Harold (Godwin) and gave him help in their power; for he had taken to wife their sister Aldgyth. She had formerly been the wife of Gruffydd, a great Welsh prince and had born him Bleddyn and a daughter called Nest." (Historia Ecclesiastica Book III)

2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.

3. That Osbert fitz Richard had a wife called Nest is proved by two of his son's charters (148 & 165) where he refers to "patris mei Osberti et matris mee Nest" (Worcester Cartulary)

4. J.E. Lloyd in his "History of Wales" discovered that this Nest was the daughter of Gruffydd by comparing two sources: i) Florence of Worcester, (d. 1118) reported that Bernard of Neufmarche was the son in law of Osbert fitz Richard, while ii) the 12th century chronicler Giraldus Cambrensis reported that Neufmarche married Nest, the daughter of another Nest, who was the daughter of Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. (Itinerarium Cambriae. Chapter II).

Clive West

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 24 aug 2007 04:43:35

On Aug 22, 12:24 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Aug 22, 11:50 am, "Clive West" <clivew...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.

I would be interested in opinion on this. Given the amount of
confiscation and regranting, I am not sure how safe it is to assume
that this serves as evidence that Nest was daughter of Gruffydd _by_
Aldgyth.


To answer my own question, I see that Freeman cites Orderic as
explicitly giving Ealdgyth a daughter Nest. However, he is not very
strong on this family. He also gives her a son Bleddyn who was
instead a more distant kinsman of her husband, and he names her mother
as Godgifu.

taf

John P. Ravilious

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 aug 2007 12:24:53

Dear Todd,

I agree that Orderic is not the highest on the accuracy scale,
and like any source requires close reading (and comparison to other
sources). However, I would not lay aside the claim of a daughter Nest
as a daughter of Aldgid/Aldgyth too readily. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, king
of Gwynedd and Powys (d. 1075) doesn't rate as a 'more distant
kinsman' of Gruffydd: Bleddyn was his uterine half-brother [1].
William of Jumi?ges (fl. ca. 1000-1070) was a contemporary
witness to the events of the mid 11th century, and appears to have
fewer accuracy issues as I find it compared to Orderic. As I
previously mentioned, it was William (vii. 31) who stated that Harold
Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl Al[f]gar, after the death
of her 1st husband Gruffydd:

" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [2]

The subsequent history and claimed descent from the daughter Nest
is based on Giraldus Cambrensis and others, as Clive West kindly drew
together previously in this thread [3].

In fact, all of the evidence (including Orderic) points to there
having been a daughter Nest; there appears to be no evidence to the
contrary.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] Reference from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle:

'A.D. 1063.
.... in the harvest of the same year was King Griffin slain,
on the nones of August, by his own men, through the war
that he waged with Earl Harold. He was king over all the
Welsh nation. And his head was brought to Earl Harold;
who sent it to King Edward, with his ship's head, and
the rigging therewith. King Edward committed the land
to his two brothers, Blethgent [Bleddyn] and Rigwatle
[Rhiwallon]; who swore oaths, and gave hostages to the
king and to the earl, that they would be faithful to him
in all things, ready to aid him everywhere by water and
land, and would pay him such tribute from the land as
was paid long before to other kings. ' [ASC 143 ]


[2] E. A. Freeman, The History of the Norman Conquest of England
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1870), II:659.


[3] On 22 Aug 2007, Clive West wrote:

" In a message of 15th August under this topic Will Johnson raised
doubts as to whether Gruffydd ap Llewellyn was the son-in-law of
Alfgar and whether Osbert fitz Richard married Nest, the daughter of
Gruffydd. The main evidence for these relationships is as follows:

1. According to the chronicler Orderic Vitalis (c. 1075-11420):


"The Earls Edwin and Morcar, sons of the great Earl Aelfgar, were
close friends and adherents of Harold (Godwin) and gave him help in
their power; for he had taken to wife their sister Aldgyth. She had
formerly been the wife of Gruffydd, a great Welsh prince and had born
him Bleddyn and a daughter called Nest." (Historia Ecclesiastica Book
III)


2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of
Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before
the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This
estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.


3. That Osbert fitz Richard had a wife called Nest is proved by two of
his son's charters (148 & 165) where he refers to "patris mei Osberti
et matris mee Nest" (Worcester Cartulary)


4. J.E. Lloyd in his "History of Wales" discovered that this Nest was
the daughter of Gruffydd by comparing two sources: i) Florence of
Worcester, (d. 1118) reported that Bernard of Neufmarche was the son
in law of Osbert fitz Richard, while ii) the 12th century chronicler
Giraldus Cambrensis reported that Neufmarche married Nest, the
daughter of another Nest, who was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llewellyn. (Itinerarium Cambriae. Chapter II).


Clive West "


* John P. Ravilious




On Aug 23, 11:43?pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Aug 22, 12:24 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:50 am, "Clive West" <clivew...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.

I would be interested in opinion on this. Given the amount of
confiscation and regranting, I am not sure how safe it is to assume
that this serves as evidence that Nest was daughter of Gruffydd _by_
Aldgyth.

To answer my own question, I see that Freeman cites Orderic as
explicitly giving Ealdgyth a daughter Nest. However, he is not very
strong on this family. He also gives her a son Bleddyn who was
instead a more distant kinsman of her husband, and he names her mother
as Godgifu.

taf

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 24 aug 2007 19:28:02

On Aug 24, 4:24 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Todd,

I agree that Orderic is not the highest on the accuracy scale,
and like any source requires close reading (and comparison to other
sources). However, I would not lay aside the claim of a daughter Nest
as a daughter of Aldgid/Aldgyth too readily. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, king
of Gwynedd and Powys (d. 1075) doesn't rate as a 'more distant
kinsman' of Gruffydd: Bleddyn was his uterine half-brother [1].

Thanks for the precise relationship (which by the way does, in my
view, rate as more distant than being his child), but if Orderic
confused a half-brother-in-law with a son, I have a reduced faith that
he has correctly distinguished a daughter from a step-daughter.


William of Jumi?ges (fl. ca. 1000-1070) was a contemporary
witness to the events of the mid 11th century, and appears to have
fewer accuracy issues as I find it compared to Orderic. As I
previously mentioned, it was William (vii. 31) who stated that Harold
Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl Al[f]gar, after the death
of her 1st husband Gruffydd:

" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [2]

The subsequent history and claimed descent from the daughter Nest
is based on Giraldus Cambrensis and others, as Clive West kindly drew
together previously in this thread [3].

In fact, all of the evidence (including Orderic) points to there
having been a daughter Nest; there appears to be no evidence to the
contrary.

All the evidence points to a daughter of Griffith named Nest. Only
Orderic (so far) indicates she was daughter of Ealdgyth. If only the
Welsh had the same concept of monogamy as everyone else, then finding
that Griffith married Ealdgyth and that Griffith had Nest would
provide decent evidence that Ealdgyth had Nest, but it doesn't work
that way in Wales. If you assume that the official wife is mother of
the child, you do so at your own peril.

What does Barton have to say (and more importantly, what does he
cite)?

taf

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