The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

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D. Spencer Hines

The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 03:40:53

CIA criticizes former chief over terror readiness

By David Stout and Mark Mazzetti

Tuesday, August 21, 2007
The Internationl Herald-Tribune

WASHINGTON: George Tenet, the former head of the Central Intelligence
Agency, recognized the danger posed by Al Qaeda well before the attacks of
Sept. 11, 2001, but failed to adequately prepare the CIA to meet the threat,
according to an internal agency report that was released in summary form
Tuesday.

Tenet was sometimes too occupied with tactics instead of strategy, and he
was lax in promoting an information-sharing environment within the CIA, the
agency's inspector general's office says in the report.

An inspector general's team that reviewed the agency's performance found
that CIA officers "from the top down" worked hard against Al Qaeda and its
leader, Osama bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks.

"They did not always work effectively and cooperatively, however," the team
concluded, in what amounted in part to sharp criticism of Tenet's management
skills and style.

"The team found neither 'a single point of failure' nor a 'silver bullet'
that would have enabled the intelligence community to predict or prevent the
9/11 attacks," the inspector general's office said. "The team did find,
however, failures to implement and manage important processes, to follow
through with operations, and to properly share and analyze critical data."

"The agency and its officers did not discharge their responsibilities in a
satisfactory manner," according to the report, which was completed in June
2005 but kept classified until now.

No CIA employee violated the law, nor did any of their errors amount to
misconduct, according to the review team led by Inspector General John
Helgerson.

Tenet, who resigned from the CIA in 2004 and was succeeded by Porter Goss,
has defended his and his agency's actions, and he did so again Tuesday. The
CIA's anti-terrorism efforts were embodied in "a robust plan, marked by
extraordinary effort and dedication," long before Sept. 11, 2001, he said in
a statement.

"Without such an effort, we would not have been able to give the president a
plan on Sept. 15, 2001, that led to the routing of the Taliban, chasing Al
Qaeda from its Afghan sanctuary and combating terrorists across 92
countries," Tenet said.

The current head of the CIA, General Michael Hayden, issued a statement
making clear that he did not favor publication of the inspector general's
report because he thought it would "consume time and attention revisiting
ground that is already well plowed."

The report was released as part of an arrangement with Congress, which
recently endorsed the recommendations of the independent, bipartisan
commission that investigated the Sept. 11 attacks.

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.

William Black

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av William Black » 22 aug 2007 09:55:35

What knives?

He's 54 years of age, semi retired, currently on the board of Qinetiq, and
his book was a best seller.

What they gonna do?

Be rude to him...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

a.spencer3

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 22 aug 2007 11:08:35

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:6nNyi.108$Jp2.1116@eagle.america.net...
CIA criticizes former chief over terror readiness

By David Stout and Mark Mazzetti

Tuesday, August 21, 2007
The Internationl Herald-Tribune

WASHINGTON: George Tenet, the former head of the Central Intelligence
Agency, recognized the danger posed by Al Qaeda well before the attacks of
Sept. 11, 2001, but failed to adequately prepare the CIA to meet the
threat,
according to an internal agency report that was released in summary form
Tuesday.

Tenet was sometimes too occupied with tactics instead of strategy, and he
was lax in promoting an information-sharing environment within the CIA,
the
agency's inspector general's office says in the report.

An inspector general's team that reviewed the agency's performance found
that CIA officers "from the top down" worked hard against Al Qaeda and its
leader, Osama bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks.

"They did not always work effectively and cooperatively, however," the
team
concluded, in what amounted in part to sharp criticism of Tenet's
management
skills and style.

"The team found neither 'a single point of failure' nor a 'silver bullet'
that would have enabled the intelligence community to predict or prevent
the
9/11 attacks," the inspector general's office said. "The team did find,
however, failures to implement and manage important processes, to follow
through with operations, and to properly share and analyze critical data."

"The agency and its officers did not discharge their responsibilities in a
satisfactory manner," according to the report, which was completed in June
2005 but kept classified until now.

No CIA employee violated the law, nor did any of their errors amount to
misconduct, according to the review team led by Inspector General John
Helgerson.

Tenet, who resigned from the CIA in 2004 and was succeeded by Porter Goss,
has defended his and his agency's actions, and he did so again Tuesday.
The
CIA's anti-terrorism efforts were embodied in "a robust plan, marked by
extraordinary effort and dedication," long before Sept. 11, 2001, he said
in
a statement.

"Without such an effort, we would not have been able to give the president
a
plan on Sept. 15, 2001, that led to the routing of the Taliban, chasing Al
Qaeda from its Afghan sanctuary and combating terrorists across 92
countries," Tenet said.

The current head of the CIA, General Michael Hayden, issued a statement
making clear that he did not favor publication of the inspector general's
report because he thought it would "consume time and attention revisiting
ground that is already well plowed."

The report was released as part of an arrangement with Congress, which
recently endorsed the recommendations of the independent, bipartisan
commission that investigated the Sept. 11 attacks.

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.


Typical retrospective scapegoating.


The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

Surreyman

Bryn

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Bryn » 22 aug 2007 11:58:27

In article <bSSyi.36913$1G1.9673@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, William Black
<william.black@hotmail.co.uk> writes
What knives?

He's 54 years of age, semi retired, currently on the board of Qinetiq, and
his book was a best seller.

What they gonna do?

Be rude to him...

As this is such a special case, they may even be very rude.

--
Bryn

I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but
I can't be arsed.

Remove the gremlins to email me...

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 22 aug 2007 15:22:28

a.spencer3 wrote:

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.


Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.


Its not rubbish. The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 16:05:45

BINGO!

DSH

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:DWTyi.24697$Db6.16033@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:6nNyi.108$Jp2.1116@eagle.america.net...

CIA criticizes former chief over terror readiness

By David Stout and Mark Mazzetti

Tuesday, August 21, 2007
The Internationl Herald-Tribune

WASHINGTON: George Tenet, the former head of the Central Intelligence
Agency, recognized the danger posed by Al Qaeda well before the attacks
of
Sept. 11, 2001, but failed to adequately prepare the CIA to meet the
threat,
according to an internal agency report that was released in summary form
Tuesday.

Tenet was sometimes too occupied with tactics instead of strategy, and he
was lax in promoting an information-sharing environment within the CIA,
the
agency's inspector general's office says in the report.

An inspector general's team that reviewed the agency's performance found
that CIA officers "from the top down" worked hard against Al Qaeda and
its
leader, Osama bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks.

"They did not always work effectively and cooperatively, however," the
team
concluded, in what amounted in part to sharp criticism of Tenet's
management
skills and style.

"The team found neither 'a single point of failure' nor a 'silver bullet'
that would have enabled the intelligence community to predict or prevent
the
9/11 attacks," the inspector general's office said. "The team did find,
however, failures to implement and manage important processes, to follow
through with operations, and to properly share and analyze critical
data."

"The agency and its officers did not discharge their responsibilities in
a
satisfactory manner," according to the report, which was completed in
June
2005 but kept classified until now.

No CIA employee violated the law, nor did any of their errors amount to
misconduct, according to the review team led by Inspector General John
Helgerson.

Tenet, who resigned from the CIA in 2004 and was succeeded by Porter
Goss,
has defended his and his agency's actions, and he did so again Tuesday.
The
CIA's anti-terrorism efforts were embodied in "a robust plan, marked by
extraordinary effort and dedication," long before Sept. 11, 2001, he said
in
a statement.

"Without such an effort, we would not have been able to give the
president
a
plan on Sept. 15, 2001, that led to the routing of the Taliban, chasing
Al
Qaeda from its Afghan sanctuary and combating terrorists across 92
countries," Tenet said.

The current head of the CIA, General Michael Hayden, issued a statement
making clear that he did not favor publication of the inspector general's
report because he thought it would "consume time and attention revisiting
ground that is already well plowed."

The report was released as part of an arrangement with Congress, which
recently endorsed the recommendations of the independent, bipartisan
commission that investigated the Sept. 11 attacks.

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.


Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

Surreyman

The Highlander

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av The Highlander » 22 aug 2007 16:08:40

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:08:35 GMT, "a.spencer3"
<a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:6nNyi.108$Jp2.1116@eagle.america.net...
CIA criticizes former chief over terror readiness

By David Stout and Mark Mazzetti

Tuesday, August 21, 2007
The Internationl Herald-Tribune

WASHINGTON: George Tenet, the former head of the Central Intelligence
Agency, recognized the danger posed by Al Qaeda well before the attacks of
Sept. 11, 2001, but failed to adequately prepare the CIA to meet the
threat,
according to an internal agency report that was released in summary form
Tuesday.

Tenet was sometimes too occupied with tactics instead of strategy, and he
was lax in promoting an information-sharing environment within the CIA,
the
agency's inspector general's office says in the report.

An inspector general's team that reviewed the agency's performance found
that CIA officers "from the top down" worked hard against Al Qaeda and its
leader, Osama bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks.

"They did not always work effectively and cooperatively, however," the
team
concluded, in what amounted in part to sharp criticism of Tenet's
management
skills and style.

"The team found neither 'a single point of failure' nor a 'silver bullet'
that would have enabled the intelligence community to predict or prevent
the
9/11 attacks," the inspector general's office said. "The team did find,
however, failures to implement and manage important processes, to follow
through with operations, and to properly share and analyze critical data."

"The agency and its officers did not discharge their responsibilities in a
satisfactory manner," according to the report, which was completed in June
2005 but kept classified until now.

No CIA employee violated the law, nor did any of their errors amount to
misconduct, according to the review team led by Inspector General John
Helgerson.

Tenet, who resigned from the CIA in 2004 and was succeeded by Porter Goss,
has defended his and his agency's actions, and he did so again Tuesday.
The
CIA's anti-terrorism efforts were embodied in "a robust plan, marked by
extraordinary effort and dedication," long before Sept. 11, 2001, he said
in
a statement.

"Without such an effort, we would not have been able to give the president
a
plan on Sept. 15, 2001, that led to the routing of the Taliban, chasing Al
Qaeda from its Afghan sanctuary and combating terrorists across 92
countries," Tenet said.

The current head of the CIA, General Michael Hayden, issued a statement
making clear that he did not favor publication of the inspector general's
report because he thought it would "consume time and attention revisiting
ground that is already well plowed."

The report was released as part of an arrangement with Congress, which
recently endorsed the recommendations of the independent, bipartisan
commission that investigated the Sept. 11 attacks.

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.


Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

How very thoughtful of you to critique your post and save me the
trouble.

Surreyman



The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 16:12:12

On Aug 22, 11:05 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
BINGO!

DSH


Mr. Hines always ready to blame Clinton for 9/11, when Bush had been
in office for nine months -- enough time to RECTIFY any national
security policy he found abhorrent.

What did Bush do in those nine months?

He doesn't even have a Monica excuse.

Cory Bhreckan

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Cory Bhreckan » 22 aug 2007 16:46:20

Doug McDonald wrote:
a.spencer3 wrote:


It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in
leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.


Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.


Its not rubbish. The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald

The World Trade Towers were standing on Jan 21. 2001. You can whine and
point all the fingers that you want but it won't change the fact. George
W. Bush and his staff were warned and chose to ignore the warning.

--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 16:52:14

This part by Doug McDonald [vide infra] is correct -- but Tenet IS being
singled-out and scapegoated, as Surreyman suggests.

Mind you, Tenet WAS the DCI in an Era that HAD NO Director of National
Intelligence -- WITH STAFF -- because no one in power wanted one.

It was not only the Chinese Wall between the CIA and FBI that was the
problem -- a leftover from Watergate overreaction.

The other two major causes were:

The Multiculturalism Craze -- which made it Grossly Politically Incorrect to
spy on distinct ethnic, racial or religious groups such as Arabs or Muslims.

The Race, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Disabled and Multicultural Craze which
penalized managers for not showing they were meeting or exceeding hiring and
promotion quotas for these "Protected Groups".

Savvy CIA, DIA, FBI, INR, NSA and Service Intelligence, Law Enforcement and
Cryptologic Managers were spending FAR more time on Personnel Matters and
far LESS time on looking out for the National Security interests of the
United States and the protection of the American People.

Priorities, Recruitment, Promotions and Funding Were All Skewed.

TODAY the Climate of Opinion has changed radically and Tenet is being blamed
for having lived, worked and competed in the OLD Climate of Opinion that
prevailed BEFORE 9/11.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------------------

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fahgr1$bf1$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 17:00:30

On Aug 22, 7:22 am, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
a.spencer3 wrote:

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.

Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

Its not rubbish. The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The terrorists were on the radar - why were they allowed to take
flying lessons? And when their Florida instructors found it odd that
they had no interest in learning how to land a jet and admit to
feeling that this was a bit alarming, why didn't they call the FBI?
The "regulations" that you mention are also known as "rights" of US
citizens. Then, too, there were the aerial exercises being conducted
that day in the vicinity by our own military....we will probably never
know the entire chain of events. All we have are questions and our
great-grandchildren will probably have the same questions. This is an
issue beyond left versus right.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 17:01:44

On Aug 22, 11:52 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
This part by Doug McDonald [vide infra] is correct -- but Tenet IS being
singled-out and scapegoated, as Surreyman suggests.

Mind you, Tenet WAS the DCI in an Era that HAD NO Director of National
Intelligence -- WITH STAFF -- because no one in power wanted one.

It was not only the Chinese Wall between the CIA and FBI that was the
problem -- a leftover from Watergate overreaction.

The other two major causes were:

The Multiculturalism Craze -- which made it Grossly Politically Incorrect to
spy on distinct ethnic, racial or religious groups such as Arabs or Muslims.

The Race, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Disabled and Multicultural Craze which
penalized managers for not showing they were meeting or exceeding hiring and
promotion quotas for these "Protected Groups".

Savvy CIA, DIA, FBI, INR, NSA and Service Intelligence, Law Enforcement and
Cryptologic Managers were spending FAR more time on Personnel Matters and
far LESS time on looking out for the National Security interests of the
United States and the protection of the American People.

Priorities, Recruitment, Promotions and Funding Were All Skewed.

TODAY the Climate of Opinion has changed radically and Tenet is being blamed
for having lived, worked and competed in the OLD Climate of Opinion that
prevailed BEFORE 9/11.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------------------

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message

news:fahgr1$bf1$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald

Bollocks.

Since when the activities of the CIA, who it is spying on and what
cultural groups those people belong to, are open to public scrutiny,
so that Tenet would fear taking steps that were politically
incorrect?

Bad excuse for what pure and simple incompetence. Company men, which
Tenet was, are yes men, not fountains of creativity and initiative and
risk taking.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 17:22:39

There is some Truth to that.

DSH

Tenet is that rarest of beasts a bipartisan toady, obsequious to both
parties.

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 22 aug 2007 17:40:06

All this concentrates on intelligence failures regarding the 911
attacks.

It ignores common sense security.

First, the only viable large casualty method open to terrorists at
that time was a large airplane "kamikaze" attack of the the type they
did. It could have been foreseen, thwarted or precluded merely by
fortified cockpit doors and an in-plane camera system for monitoring
activity in the passenger compartment. It was systematic stupidity
from the airlines, the government, insurers and re-insurers that none
of that was done years before.

So much for the concept of free market efficiency.

Second, an FBI operative actually did his job and tried to raise an
alarm about suspicious people taking airliner flight training. The
fact that this was stopped from being acted upon within the FBI says
all that needs to be said about US government beaurcracy and the
people who attain managment positions within it.

The only way Bush would have changed the US intelligence services,
would have been if he saw some way to politicize them to his
advantage.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 17:54:26

On Aug 22, 12:40 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
All this concentrates on intelligence failures regarding the 911
attacks.

It ignores common sense security.

First, the only viable large casualty method open to terrorists at
that time was a large airplane "kamikaze" attack of the the type they
did. It could have been foreseen, thwarted or precluded merely by
fortified cockpit doors and an in-plane camera system for monitoring
activity in the passenger compartment. It was systematic stupidity
from the airlines, the government, insurers and re-insurers that none
of that was done years before.

So much for the concept of free market efficiency.


You forget the prime motivator: low fares.

Remember that next time your flight departs hours late or it is
canceled.

Even if it had been foreseen, it doesn't mean that the measures you
mentioned would have been put into effect.

The public is ruthless and demands low fares. Anything that will
make low fares hard will be resisted. Airlines are already juggling
priorities to maintain competitive fares in the face of severe
challenges, like stricter security, and a crumbingly old air traffic
control system wholly inadequate for today's traffic.

It will take billions and decades to update. They tried once already
in the 90s and they failed, when only a small part of the system was
updated after grievous losses and a ten-year effort.

Something has to give and at the moment that is efficiency. To think
that without a CLEAR and PRESENT threat, and only on mere probability,
the government or the airlines would fortify all their aircraft cabins
is naive.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 17:55:26

On Aug 22, 12:00 pm, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 7:22 am, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
wrote:



a.spencer3 wrote:

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.

Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

Its not rubbish. The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The terrorists were on the radar - why were they allowed to take
flying lessons? And when their Florida instructors found it odd that
they had no interest in learning how to land a jet and admit to
feeling that this was a bit alarming, why didn't they call the FBI?

Monday morning quarterbacking.

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 22 aug 2007 19:36:35

Cory Bhreckan wrote:

The World Trade Towers were standing on Jan 21. 2001. You can whine and
point all the fingers that you want but it won't change the fact. George
W. Bush and his staff were warned and chose to ignore the warning.



The word you have wrong is "chose". In the early days of the Bush
administration the FBI and the CIA were CONSTRAINED by Clinton's
directives to do the wrong thing and not communicate. They had no
legal choice. True, Bush COULD have acted faster than he did
to correct the situation ... but the situation itself
led to a false complacency. This was a leftover from Clinton.
Remember that Tenet was a Clinton holdover, as were many
other mid-level functionaries.

It would take have taken time to fix the problems, even had
they started out on the front burner on inauguration day. It takes
time to get rid of all the baggage from the old regime.

Note that the Bush administration has been very good at
correcting these problems, post 9/11, despite attacks from people like you
trying to stop them from doing the right thing.

The key points are that we must discriminate on the basis
of likelihood of being a terrorist, spy on possible
terrorists, monitor their communications, etc. This is
being done. And it is critical, absolutely critical, not to impose
artificial barriers on who they spy on.

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 19:40:45

Cogent & Coherent.

DSH
------------------------------------

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Aj%yi.38877$ie3.10982@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

...the late Adam Osborne once remarked:

"...it doesn't matter a rat's ass what sort of suit you wear and how
expensive your haircut is, the only thing that matters is brains."

Cory Bhreckan

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Cory Bhreckan » 22 aug 2007 19:52:15

Doug McDonald wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:


Clinton Clinton Clinton. No matter how many times you whine about
Clinton the fact remains; Bush was warned, Rice was warned. They ignored
the warnings, they ignored the August PDB. They demoted Clark despite
the warnings. They stopped the Predator drone flights in Afghanistan.
Bush was responsible for the failure to stop the Sept. 11 2001 attacks,
not President Clinton. It's time for Bush to take responsibility for his
actions, for a change.

Doug McDonald


--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 22 aug 2007 19:53:58

On Aug 22, 2:36 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:

The World Trade Towers were standing on Jan 21. 2001. You can whine and
point all the fingers that you want but it won't change the fact. George
W. Bush and his staff were warned and chose to ignore the warning.

The word you have wrong is "chose". In the early days of the Bush
administration the FBI and the CIA were CONSTRAINED by Clinton's
directives to do the wrong thing and not communicate. They had no
legal choice. True, Bush COULD have acted faster than he did
to correct the situation ... but the situation itself
led to a false complacency. This was a leftover from Clinton.
Remember that Tenet was a Clinton holdover, as were many
other mid-level functionaries.

It would take have taken time to fix the problems, even had
they started out on the front burner on inauguration day. It takes
time to get rid of all the baggage from the old regime.

Note that the Bush administration has been very good at
correcting these problems, post 9/11, despite attacks from people like you
trying to stop them from doing the right thing.

The key points are that we must discriminate on the basis
of likelihood of being a terrorist, spy on possible
terrorists, monitor their communications, etc. This is
being done. And it is critical, absolutely critical, not to impose
artificial barriers on who they spy on.

Doug McDonald

So because Bush wanted to undo everything that Clinton did it was
necessary to ignore any warnings that appeared during that nine-month
period? We have seen in the subsequent 6 years that Bush could get
elected but he had no clue as to governing. Better to load up
important cabinet departments with loyal bushies with no concept of
who they were working for, after all they took an oath to Bush not the
Constitution. Several good strong warnings told the management things
were going to happen, an unnamed CIA briefer flew to Bush's Texas
ranch during the scary summer of 2001, amid a flurry of reports of a
pending al-Qaeda attack, called the president's attention personally
to the now-famous Aug. 6, 2001, memo titled "Bin Ladin Determined to
Strike in US." Bush reportedly heard the briefer out and replied: "All
right. You've covered your ass, now."

So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas
to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.

A not-so-gentle reminder of the great and glorious leader.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 19:55:07

They do.

I've seen it in action -- and it works.

DSH
------------------------------------------------------

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:px%yi.40689$sI3.4326@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

I have a suspicion that NSA have worked out a way to keep the clever
people safe from the depredations of the suits.

If the British could do it in WWII in the ghastly class ridden snobbish
times then, and manage to keep someone as odd as Alan Touring in line and
working, then I imagine NSA can manage the trick.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 20:03:14

They do.

I've seen it in action -- and it works.

N.B. It's Alan TURING.

DSH
------------------------------------------------------

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:px%yi.40689$sI3.4326@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

I have a suspicion that NSA have worked out a way to keep the clever
people safe from the depredations of the suits.

If the British could do it in WWII in the ghastly class ridden snobbish
times then, and manage to keep someone as odd as Alan Touring in line and
working, then I imagine NSA can manage the trick.

Glenn Dowdy

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Glenn Dowdy » 22 aug 2007 20:14:10

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:eJ%yi.137$Jp2.1228@eagle.america.net...
The key points are that we must discriminate on the basis
of likelihood of being a terrorist, spy on possible
terrorists, monitor their communications, etc. This is
being done. And it is critical, absolutely critical, not to impose
artificial barriers on who they spy on.

Yep...

Naïve people simply don't understand how difficult it is to change the
course of the American Federal Government.

Change -- in the absence of a triggering catastrophic event such as the
Pearl Harbor or 9/11 attacks or Watergate -- proceeds at a funereal
pace -- and no President can change that fundamental fact of Washington.

The Founding Fathers WANTED the American Government to be checked and
balanced to equilibrium on many issues -- NOT constantly innovative and
simulative.

The Bush Administration seemed perfectly capable of changing removing and/or

bypassing those Constitutional checks and balances that existed for over 200
years to suit their purposes. I don't see why you don't expect that a
lifting a communication rule couldn't have been as easy, unless you agree
that one shouldn't do any work on vacation.

Glenn D.

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 22 aug 2007 20:40:53

Jack Linthicum wrote:

So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas
to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.


Yes, because the Clintonm left-overs WERE SO INCOMPETENT!!!


You can't blame 9/11 on Bush, no matter how hard you try.
Note again that Clinton HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO
KILL bin LAND AND DECIDED NOT TO.

**THAT** is the bottom line. Bush is trying very hard
to fight terrorism .. Clinton tried very hard NOT
to fight terrorism!

Nothing you can do will change that.

Doug McDonald

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 22 aug 2007 20:48:41

On Aug 22, 3:40 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas
to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.

Yes, because the Clintonm left-overs WERE SO INCOMPETENT!!!

You can't blame 9/11 on Bush, no matter how hard you try.
Note again that Clinton HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO
KILL bin LAND AND DECIDED NOT TO.

**THAT** is the bottom line. Bush is trying very hard
to fight terrorism .. Clinton tried very hard NOT
to fight terrorism!

Nothing you can do will change that.

Doug McDonald

Can you name anyone whom you would call a "Clinton leftover" who was
not approved by the incoming Bush group? The staffs are replaced by
the incoming people, nobody hangs on.

Cory Bhreckan

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Cory Bhreckan » 22 aug 2007 20:51:19

Doug McDonald wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:
Doug McDonald wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:


Clinton Clinton Clinton. No matter how many times you whine about
Clinton the fact remains; Bush was warned, Rice was warned.

No matter how many times you state this, the FACT is that
the warning, weak though it was, came too late for
action. All this was a CLINTON LEGACY.

Nobody believes these talking points anymore except for the small
percentage of loyalists who would still support Bush even if he were to
molest children on television. It's quite pathetic really.

The Towers were standing on Jan. 21 2001. President protected the US,
Bush did not.

--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 22 aug 2007 20:54:24

On Aug 22, 10:54 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 22, 12:40 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

All this concentrates on intelligence failures regarding the 911
attacks.

It ignores common sense security.

First, the only viable large casualty method open to terrorists at
that time was a large airplane "kamikaze" attack of the the type they
did. It could have been foreseen, thwarted or precluded merely by
fortified cockpit doors and an in-plane camera system for monitoring
activity in the passenger compartment. It was systematic stupidity
from the airlines, the government, insurers and re-insurers that none
of that was done years before.

So much for the concept of free market efficiency.

You forget the prime motivator: low fares.

No, the costs would have been trivial and if all airlines were
required to implement them, then the minor rises would not have put
any one of them at a compertitive disadvantage. The lack of doing it,
led to bankruptcies and much higher greater costs in fares and taxes.


Remember that next time your flight departs hours late or it is
canceled.

Even if it had been foreseen, it doesn't mean that the measures you
mentioned would have been put into effect.

Insurance providers could and should have have caused these kinds
measures long before any specific threat. It should have been done
years ago.


The public is ruthless and demands low fares. Anything that will
make low fares hard will be resisted. Airlines are already juggling
priorities to maintain competitive fares in the face of severe
challenges, like stricter security, and a crumbingly old air traffic
control system wholly inadequate for today's traffic.

It will take billions and decades to update. They tried once already
in the 90s and they failed, when only a small part of the system was
updated after grievous losses and a ten-year effort.

Something has to give and at the moment that is efficiency. To think
that without a CLEAR and PRESENT threat, and only on mere probability,
the government or the airlines would fortify all their aircraft cabins
is naive.

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 21:15:13

The Clinton Administrations -- led by Bill and Hill, plus Gore -- saw all
sorts of OPPORTUNITIES -- but neglected THREATS.

After all, they were basking in the glow of a successful WIN for the Free
World in The Cold War -- so, as in the 1920's -- America had a Long Weekend
Party.

Once Again they were working in a completely different CLIMATE OF OPINION --
Pre 9/11.

The Clinton Agenda was also almost completely DOMESTIC -- NOT oriented
towards NATIONAL SECURITY.

The Clintons are Accomplished Policy-Wonks on DOMESTIC AFFAIRS.

Hillary, because she is damned smart, has been tooling herself up on
National Security Issues ---- trying to build experience and credibility
during her Presidential run -- in order to be seen as a qualified
Commander-in-Chief.

That's why she has taken on Barack Obama -- and pointed out he is "naïve and
irresponsible" on said issues -- including talking about nuclear weapons.

DSH
--------------------------------------

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fai39d$ime$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

Cory Bhreckan wrote:
Doug McDonald wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:


Clinton Clinton Clinton. No matter how many times you whine about Clinton
the fact remains; Bush was warned, Rice was warned.

No matter how many times you state this, the FACT is that
the warning, weak though it was, came too late for
action. All this was a CLINTON LEGACY.

There is nothing you can do about that: Clinton did not take
security as important. Yes, it happened on Bush's watch ...
but the PREPARATION and most of the intelligence came during
Clinton's AND HE DID NOTHING. Also, one points out, CLINTON
HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO KILL bin LADEN AND DID NOT ACT.
This despite that it was clear that al Qaeda was involved
with previous murderous attempts around the world.

The BOTTOM LINE is that Bush has been doing as good a job as
can be done with people like you and many Democrats attacking
EVERYTHING he does in the war on terror, no matter WHAT IT IS.
Note that the Democrats are currently busily scurrying to
figure out new ways of attacking him now that it is apparent
that the "surge" is working, and that, ABSENT HELP FROM
PEOPLE LIKE YOU, the terrorists WILL eventually lose,
just as the IRA eventually lost. It probably will take
as long.

Doug McDonald

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 22:29:27

On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You forget the prime motivator: low fares.

No, the costs would have been trivial and if all airlines were
required to implement them, then the minor rises would not have put
any one of them at a compertitive disadvantage. The lack of doing it,
led to bankruptcies and much higher greater costs in fares and taxes.


That's Monday morning quarterbacking.

BEFORE 9/11 few would agree to go into a WORLD-WIDE refitting of
aircraft on a the suspicion that planes could be used as missiles.
You among them probably, without the hindsight.






Remember that next time your flight departs hours late or it is
canceled.

Even if it had been foreseen, it doesn't mean that the measures you
mentioned would have been put into effect.

Insurance providers could and should have have caused these kinds
measures long before any specific threat. It should have been done
years ago.


Again, insurance actuaries obviously didn't think so, and they are
masters at measuring risk. You are projecting back your knowledge of
9/11. It's easy to do.

Many were telling Bush not to invade Iraq, it didn't take much
expertise to see THAT coming. But 9/11 was different, THEY caught
everybody napping. To the point that nobody was sure who the
perpetrators were, for many days. Nobody it seems, thought that Bin
Laden was capable of doing such thing, much as the scenario had been
talked about.




The public is ruthless and demands low fares. Anything that will
make low fares hard will be resisted. Airlines are already juggling
priorities to maintain competitive fares in the face of severe
challenges, like stricter security, and a crumbingly old air traffic
control system wholly inadequate for today's traffic.

It will take billions and decades to update. They tried once already
in the 90s and they failed, when only a small part of the system was
updated after grievous losses and a ten-year effort.

Something has to give and at the moment that is efficiency. To think
that without a CLEAR and PRESENT threat, and only on mere probability,
the government or the airlines would fortify all their aircraft cabins
is naive.

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 22 aug 2007 22:32:33

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...



Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 22:50:14

Senor Suriol is correct here.

DSH

"Tiglath" <temp5@tiglath.net> wrote in message
news:1187818167.210126.92400@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:


You forget the prime motivator: low fares.

No, the costs would have been trivial and if all airlines were
required to implement them, then the minor rises would not have put
any one of them at a compertitive disadvantage. The lack of doing it,
led to bankruptcies and much higher greater costs in fares and taxes.


That's Monday morning quarterbacking.

BEFORE 9/11 few would agree to go into a WORLD-WIDE refitting of
aircraft on a the suspicion that planes could be used as missiles.
You among them probably, without the hindsight.


Remember that next time your flight departs hours late or it is
canceled.

Even if it had been foreseen, it doesn't mean that the measures you
mentioned would have been put into effect.

Insurance providers could and should have have caused these kinds
measures long before any specific threat. It should have been done
years ago.


Again, insurance actuaries obviously didn't think so, and they are
masters at measuring risk. You are projecting back your knowledge of
9/11. It's easy to do.

Many were telling Bush not to invade Iraq, it didn't take much
expertise to see THAT coming. But 9/11 was different, THEY caught
everybody napping. To the point that nobody was sure who the
perpetrators were, for many days. Nobody it seems, thought that Bin
Laden was capable of doing such thing, much as the scenario had been
talked about.





The public is ruthless and demands low fares. Anything that will
make low fares hard will be resisted. Airlines are already juggling
priorities to maintain competitive fares in the face of severe
challenges, like stricter security, and a crumbingly old air traffic
control system wholly inadequate for today's traffic.

It will take billions and decades to update. They tried once already
in the 90s and they failed, when only a small part of the system was
updated after grievous losses and a ten-year effort.

Something has to give and at the moment that is efficiency. To think
that without a CLEAR and PRESENT threat, and only on mere probability,
the government or the airlines would fortify all their aircraft cabins
is naive.

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 22 aug 2007 23:31:07

On Aug 22, 3:29 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:



You forget the prime motivator: low fares.

No, the costs would have been trivial and if all airlines were
required to implement them, then the minor rises would not have put
any one of them at a compertitive disadvantage. The lack of doing it,
led to bankruptcies and much higher greater costs in fares and taxes.

That's Monday morning quarterbacking.

No it's not. It is and was common sense. People don't put flimsy
access doors on their homes for security reasons.


BEFORE 9/11 few would agree to go into a WORLD-WIDE refitting of
aircraft on a the suspicion that planes could be used as missiles.
You among them probably, without the hindsight.

The Iraelis had already done it and most people probably assumed that
airplanes had better in-plane security.

It's not hindsight, it's common sense. By the way, airplanes had long
before been used as suicide missiles by Japanese.




Remember that next time your flight departs hours late or it is
canceled.

Even if it had been foreseen, it doesn't mean that the measures you
mentioned would have been put into effect.

Insurance providers could and should have have caused these kinds
measures long before any specific threat. It should have been done
years ago.

Again, insurance actuaries obviously didn't think so, and they are
masters at measuring risk. You are projecting back your knowledge of
9/11. It's easy to do.


No, you are assuming that I am. Being able to deny access to an
airliner's cockpit by terrorists or insane people is common sense. If
insurance actuaries were good at what they do, they would have raised
the point be taken care of long ago. It's herd mentality and lack of
thinking.


Many were telling Bush not to invade Iraq, it didn't take much
expertise to see THAT coming. But 9/11 was different, THEY caught
everybody napping.

Not really. Suicide car and truck bombs were not uncommon before 911.
Intelligence scenarios, and fiction writers, had speculated about 911
type attacks long before they occurred.



To the point that nobody was sure who the
perpetrators were, for many days. Nobody it seems, thought that Bin
Laden was capable of doing such thing, much as the scenario had been
talked about.

Incorrect. People in the intelligence network were quick to suspect
bin Laden right after the 911 attacks.








The public is ruthless and demands low fares. Anything that will
make low fares hard will be resisted. Airlines are already juggling
priorities to maintain competitive fares in the face of severe
challenges, like stricter security, and a crumbingly old air traffic
control system wholly inadequate for today's traffic.

It will take billions and decades to update. They tried once already
in the 90s and they failed, when only a small part of the system was
updated after grievous losses and a ten-year effort.

Something has to give and at the moment that is efficiency. To think
that without a CLEAR and PRESENT threat, and only on mere probability,
the government or the airlines would fortify all their aircraft cabins
is naive.

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 aug 2007 00:10:03

What are your details on this Room 40, Jellicoe and Battle of Jutland snafu?

until Stanley Baldwin blew them wide open anyway...

Yes, go ahead.

P.S. Noble and/or Royal Ancestors for Beatty and Jellicoe?

DSH
------------------------------------------------

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sf3zi.20199$mo.12469@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1187822625.042341.302460@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

I would contest your source and his limited view. There are still
areas which were created in the Eisenhower years that are not for
public discussion. I mean, what would be your reaction seeing a major
head of state with a bag over his head walking down the halls?


The point that a lot of people forget is that intelligence agencies do not
exist in a vacuum.

They have people who can best be described as 'customers'.

These customers 'pay' for the information they receive.

If the intelligence agencies didn't actually produce something beyond what
you can read in the columns of your daily newspaper then nobody would pay
them.

For the about fifty years before World War I the British had no
crypyanalytical capacity because they considered they didn't need any, and
shut the agency that did it. They had to start from scratch in 1914 with
a naval educator who solved ciphers for fun.

Between WWI and WWII the GCCS (the British code breaking department)
employed all of 32 people, including clerical support, and was
spectacularly successful, certainly reading many diplomatic messages sent
by the USSR, until Stanley Baldwin blew them wide open anyway...

People won't pay for something that doesn't do anything for them.

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 aug 2007 03:47:10

On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:
Doug McDonald wrote:
Cory Bhreckan wrote:

Clinton Clinton Clinton. No matter how many times you whine about
Clinton the fact remains; Bush was warned, Rice was warned.

No matter how many times you state this, the FACT is that
the warning, weak though it was, came too late for
action. All this was a CLINTON LEGACY.

There is nothing you can do about that: Clinton did not take
security as important. Yes, it happened on Bush's watch ...
but the PREPARATION and most of the intelligence came during
Clinton's AND HE DID NOTHING. Also, one points out, CLINTON
HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO KILL bin LADEN AND DID NOT ACT.
This despite that it was clear that al Qaeda was involved
with previous murderous attempts around the world.

The BOTTOM LINE is that Bush has been doing as good a job as
can be done with people like you and many Democrats attacking
EVERYTHING he does in the war on terror, no matter WHAT IT IS.
Note that the Democrats are currently busily scurrying to
figure out new ways of attacking him now that it is apparent
that the "surge" is working, and that, ABSENT HELP FROM
PEOPLE LIKE YOU, the terrorists WILL eventually lose,
just as the IRA eventually lost. It probably will take
as long.

Doug McDonald

When did Republicans lose the ability to think independently and just
blindly follow their chosen leader no matter how precarious and
incorrect the path? With the constant lies, cases of corruption,
blatant disregard for the American traditions, etc. you would think
that more of them would wise up and realize that they have been
following a fool over the precipice. Forget Clinton - you're fixated
on him. At least no one died from his corruption and it didn't get
the US into a unjust war. No one has done more to increase recruitment
into Al Quade and the Jihad than Bush. He is not the answer to
security problems; he IS the security problem.

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 aug 2007 03:50:56

On Aug 22, 12:40 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas
to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.

Yes, because the Clintonm left-overs WERE SO INCOMPETENT!!!

You can't blame 9/11 on Bush, no matter how hard you try.
Note again that Clinton HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO
KILL bin LAND AND DECIDED NOT TO.

**THAT** is the bottom line. Bush is trying very hard
to fight terrorism .. Clinton tried very hard NOT
to fight terrorism!

Nothing you can do will change that.

Doug McDonald

Let's LOOK at the relationship between American presidents & bin
Laden....Saudi Oil is in Texas, is it not? The rich bin Laden family
is close to the Bush family - still - possibly with the exception of
Osama. The exception was not always there. Just after 9/11 members of
the bin Laden family were flown out of the US for their safety. How
many Saudi oil wells does Clinton have? How many times has the bin
Laden family been hired by Clinton for construction jobs? Take a very
very close look at the connections between the Bush family and the
Saudi royalty as well as the Saudi financial aristocracy, such as the
bin Laden family.

John Briggs

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av John Briggs » 23 aug 2007 10:38:01

lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 12:40 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford,
Texas to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.

Yes, because the Clintonm left-overs WERE SO INCOMPETENT!!!

You can't blame 9/11 on Bush, no matter how hard you try.
Note again that Clinton HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO
KILL bin LAND AND DECIDED NOT TO.

**THAT** is the bottom line. Bush is trying very hard
to fight terrorism .. Clinton tried very hard NOT
to fight terrorism!

Nothing you can do will change that.

Doug McDonald

Let's LOOK at the relationship between American presidents & bin
Laden....Saudi Oil is in Texas, is it not? The rich bin Laden family
is close to the Bush family - still - possibly with the exception of
Osama. The exception was not always there. Just after 9/11 members of
the bin Laden family were flown out of the US for their safety. How
many Saudi oil wells does Clinton have? How many times has the bin
Laden family been hired by Clinton for construction jobs? Take a very
very close look at the connections between the Bush family and the
Saudi royalty as well as the Saudi financial aristocracy, such as the
bin Laden family.

Hint: Carlyle Group.
--
John Briggs

William Black

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av William Black » 23 aug 2007 10:48:19

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:Bn3zi.150$Jp2.1271@eagle.america.net...
What are your details on this Room 40, Jellicoe and Battle of Jutland
snafu?

The story goes that the intercept was taken transfering the German 'flag' to
a shore station.

The intelligence professionals, all civilians, knew this meant that the
whole German fleet was about to put to sea on a sortie they already had
intelligence on.

However a nameless Commander (funny how that rank is so assossiated with
cock-ups in this field) got hold of the original signal, read it and
decided that the signal was a real movement of the German fleet command
ashore and informed his superiours that only the German battle cruisers
would put to sea, as at the Battle of Dogger Bank, and so the Royal Navy
could ambush them with relative imopunity.

Jutland promptly followed...

After that NO raw signals intelligence was allowed to be given to anyone
outside the intelligence services.

until Stanley Baldwin blew them wide open anyway...

Yes, go ahead.

During the General Strike baldwin read in the House of Commons telegrams
between the Soviet government and its UK embassy telling them to support the
strike.

The intelligence promptly dried up.

All this information is freely available in the published literature. Why
not read it?

Anyway, I thought you used to be in that business. This stuff must be very
basic to someone in that job.

P.S. Noble and/or Royal Ancestors for Beatty and Jellicoe?

Nobody cares, nobody ever cared, anyone who cares now has a problem and
should seek professional help.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 23 aug 2007 11:26:26

On Aug 23, 5:48 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in messagenews:Bn3zi.150$Jp2.1271@eagle.america.net...

What are your details on this Room 40, Jellicoe and Battle of Jutland
snafu?

The story goes that the intercept was taken transfering the German 'flag' to
a shore station.

The intelligence professionals, all civilians, knew this meant that the
whole German fleet was about to put to sea on a sortie they already had
intelligence on.

However a nameless Commander (funny how that rank is so assossiated with
cock-ups in this field) got hold of the original signal, read it and
decided that the signal was a real movement of the German fleet command
ashore and informed his superiours that only the German battle cruisers
would put to sea, as at the Battle of Dogger Bank, and so the Royal Navy
could ambush them with relative imopunity.

Jutland promptly followed...

After that NO raw signals intelligence was allowed to be given to anyone
outside the intelligence services.

until Stanley Baldwin blew them wide open anyway...

Yes, go ahead.

During the General Strike baldwin read in the House of Commons telegrams
between the Soviet government and its UK embassy telling them to support the
strike.

The intelligence promptly dried up.

All this information is freely available in the published literature. Why
not read it?

Anyway, I thought you used to be in that business. This stuff must be very
basic to someone in that job.

P.S. Noble and/or Royal Ancestors for Beatty and Jellicoe?

Nobody cares, nobody ever cared, anyone who cares now has a problem and
should seek professional help.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Hines was an "administrator" and apparently, from the stuff on line
from Misawa, a very bad one. He was stupid enough to argue publicly
with his superior and then again in a different context. That superior
became the head of all Security Group operations in the Pacific.
Result: housing officer and retirement.

William Black

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av William Black » 23 aug 2007 11:36:53

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1187864786.085231.182410@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 23, 5:48 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in
messagenews:Bn3zi.150$Jp2.1271@eagle.america.net...

What are your details on this Room 40, Jellicoe and Battle of Jutland
snafu?

The story goes that the intercept was taken transfering the German 'flag'
to
a shore station.

The intelligence professionals, all civilians, knew this meant that the
whole German fleet was about to put to sea on a sortie they already had
intelligence on.

However a nameless Commander (funny how that rank is so assossiated with
cock-ups in this field) got hold of the original signal, read it and
decided that the signal was a real movement of the German fleet command
ashore and informed his superiours that only the German battle cruisers
would put to sea, as at the Battle of Dogger Bank, and so the Royal
Navy
could ambush them with relative imopunity.

Jutland promptly followed...

After that NO raw signals intelligence was allowed to be given to anyone
outside the intelligence services.

until Stanley Baldwin blew them wide open anyway...

Yes, go ahead.

During the General Strike baldwin read in the House of Commons telegrams
between the Soviet government and its UK embassy telling them to support
the
strike.

The intelligence promptly dried up.

All this information is freely available in the published literature.
Why
not read it?

Anyway, I thought you used to be in that business. This stuff must be
very
basic to someone in that job.

P.S. Noble and/or Royal Ancestors for Beatty and Jellicoe?

Nobody cares, nobody ever cared, anyone who cares now has a problem and
should seek professional help.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Hines was an "administrator" and apparently, from the stuff on line
from Misawa, a very bad one. He was stupid enough to argue publicly
with his superior and then again in a different context. That superior
became the head of all Security Group operations in the Pacific.
Result: housing officer and retirement.


So just like his prototype at Room 40 then...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 23 aug 2007 15:31:09

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...



On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.



"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

The same situation obtains with shipping containers. We visited the
vulnerability briefly and moved on. It's not the same to say "Don't
invade Iraq," as to say, "Secure all containers," unless you are happy
paying $20 for a pound of rice.

Yet, if a container were to blow up in a bad way, the I-told-you-so
brigade would be upon us.

We secure all containers, and then a rogue vessel drops anchor in
international waters off the New York coast, before anyone can react,
drops a fast boat with two 250 HP off-board engines, which races
unstoppably toward the New York harbor and when it is above the
Lincoln Tunnel goes bang.

I told you so.

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 23 aug 2007 16:13:20

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:





"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Andrew Swallow

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Andrew Swallow » 23 aug 2007 17:07:45

Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]


Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.

Fortifying aircraft doors to prevent damage to prevent damage to
building was not a present danger. Fortifying the same doors to
prevent the aircraft from being hijacked was sensible. Lots of
aircraft have been hijacted by Arabs and Left Wingers.

Andrew Swallow

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 23 aug 2007 17:18:49

On Aug 23, 12:07 pm, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.

Fortifying aircraft doors to prevent damage to prevent damage to
building was not a present danger. Fortifying the same doors to
prevent the aircraft from being hijacked was sensible. Lots of
aircraft have been hijacted by Arabs and Left Wingers.

Andrew Swallow

Bush Team Tried to Suppress Pre-9/11 Report Into al-Qa'ida
by Andrew Buncombe in Washington


Federal officials were repeatedly warned in the months before the 11
September 2001 terror attacks that Osama bin Laden and al-Qa'ida were
planning aircraft hijackings and suicide attacks, according to a new
report that the Bush administration has been suppressing.


A newly-released memo warned the White House at the start of the Bush
administration that al Qaeda represented a threat throughout the
Islamic world, a warning that critics said went unheeded by President
Bush until the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. The memo dated Jan. 25, 2001
was an essential feature of last year's hearings into intelligence
failures.

{{{A copy of the document was posted on the National Security Archive
Web site at http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NS ... /index.htm
on Feb. 10, 2005. Page one of the three-page memo is shown. Click on
the image to open the 3-page memo as a .pdf file.}}}


Critics say the new information undermines the government's claim that
intelligence about al-Qa'ida's ambitions was "historical" in nature.

The independent commission investigating the attacks on New York and
Washington concluded that while officials at the Federal Aviation
Authority (FAA) did receive warnings, they were "lulled into a false
sense of security". As a result, "intelligence that indicated a real
and growing threat leading up to 9/11 did not stimulate significant
increases in security procedures".

The report, withheld from the public for months, says the FAA was
primarily focused on the likelihood of an incident overseas. However,
in spring 2001, it warned US airports that if "the intent of the
hijacker is not to exchange hostages for prisoners but to commit
suicide in a spectacular explosion, a domestic hijacking would
probably be preferable".

Kristin Bretweiser, whose husband was killed in the World Trade
Center, said yesterday the newly released details undermined testimony
from Condoleezza Rice, the former national security adviser, who told
the commission that information about al-Qa'ida's threats seen by the
administration was "historical in nature".

She told The Independent: "There were 52 threats that were mentioned.
These were present threats - they were not historical. There were
steps that could have been taken. Marshals could have been put on
planes that spring. Condoleezza Rice's testimony is undermined." To
the consternation of members of the commission who published the
original report last year, the administration has been blocking the
release of the latest information. An unclassified copy of this
additional appendix was passed to the National Archives two weeks ago
with large portions blacked out.

The latest pages note that of the FAA's 105 daily intelligence
summaries between 1 April 2001 and 10 September 2001, 52 of them
mentioned Osama bin Laden, al-Qa'ida, or both. The report also
concludes that officials did not expand the use of in-flight air
marshals or tighten airport screening for weapons. It said FAA
officials were more concerned with reducing airline congestion,
lessening delays and easing air carriers' financial problems than
thwarting a terrorist attack.

Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the FAA, said the agency received
intelligence from other agencies, which it passed on to airlines and
airports. "[But] we had no specific information about means or methods
that would have enabled us to tailor any countermeasures," she said.
"We were spending $100m a year to deploy explosive detection
equipment."

The commission's report, issued last summer, detailed missed
opportunities that, had law enforcement agencies acted differently,
may have provided a chance to prevent the attacks. It also listed
recommendations to prevent further attacks. It said the
administrations of George Bush and Bill Clinton could have done more
to stand up to al-Qa'ida.

But the details, first obtained by The New York Times, are the
strongest evidence yet of the widespread warnings and officials'
failure to take action. They also support claims by whistleblower
Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI translator, who said she saw evidence that
showed officials were aware of the al-Qa'ida threat before 9/11.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 23 aug 2007 18:55:54

On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:



On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either. In your
example there is a precedent of home invasions through doors and
windows. There was no precedent of hijacked planes flown into
buildings on 9/11.

A better analogy would be a neighborhood as you describe with good
doors and locks where there is an overnight wave of home intrusions
through the chimneys.

And some smart Alec saying, "Why didn't they fortify those flues?"

Paul J Gans

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 23 aug 2007 19:56:02

In alt.history.british Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:54 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]

Fortify a door. It's was and is common sense.

Fortify tens of thousands of many different types of doors, with
downtime for every plane in the fleet, for an unclear and not present
danger? No way.

Fortifying aircraft doors to prevent damage to prevent damage to
building was not a present danger. Fortifying the same doors to
prevent the aircraft from being hijacked was sensible. Lots of
aircraft have been hijacted by Arabs and Left Wingers.

And the occasional right winger escaping from certain countries.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 23 aug 2007 21:13:54

On Aug 23, 4:05 pm, "Paul J. Adam" <n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message <DJczi.20255$mo.13...@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, William Black
william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> writes

The story goes that the intercept was taken transfering the German 'flag' to
a shore station.

The intelligence professionals, all civilians, knew this meant that the
whole German fleet was about to put to sea on a sortie they already had
intelligence on.

However a nameless Commander (funny how that rank is so assossiated with
cock-ups in this field) got hold of the original signal, read it and
decided that the signal was a real movement of the German fleet command
ashore and informed his superiours that only the German battle cruisers
would put to sea, as at the Battle of Dogger Bank, and so the Royal Navy
could ambush them with relative imopunity.

Jutland promptly followed...

Andrew Gordon's "Rules of the Game" goes into some detail. (Need to get
him to sign my copy, next time I run into him at Shrivenham :) )

Captain Thomas Jackson, Director of Operations, despised the
cryptographers in Room 40. On one of his very rare visits, he blustered
in and demanded to know the location of callsign DK, was told
"Wilhelmshaven" and left to pass that information on without further
investigating.

DK was Scheer's *harbour* callsign. It was *always* in Wilhelmshaven. On
that basis, though, Jackson reported to Rear-Admiral Oliver that the
High Seas Fleet was still tied up in the Jade, and this was signalled to
Jellicoe and Beatty, who were out intending to ambush Hipper's
battlecruisers.

Gordon analyses the consequences, which were less immediately awful than
sometimes claimed: Jellicoe might have made contact with the High Seas
Fleet sixteen minutes earlier had he increased speed rather than
continuing as he was. (More serious was the discount in credibility this
imposed on subsequent signals from the Admiralty during the battle).
Later, neither Jackson nor Oliver were present during the night action:
a junior watch officer, receiving the stream of decrypts from Room 40
and having no idea what they were, carefully filed them away out of
sight...

After that NO raw signals intelligence was allowed to be given to anyone
outside the intelligence services.

And Room 40 was moved from Operations to Intelligence. Sadly, it seems
Jackson was not cashiered for his incompetence. ("Ridiculous",
"blustering", "insufferable" and "buffoon" are among the terms the
usually measured and moderate Gordon uses to describe Jackson)
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk

I notice a similarity between Captain Jackson and another.

William Black

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av William Black » 23 aug 2007 21:58:43

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1187900034.532949.112970@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 23, 4:05 pm, "Paul J. Adam" <n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message <DJczi.20255$mo.13...@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, William Black
william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> writes

The story goes that the intercept was taken transfering the German
'flag' to
a shore station.

The intelligence professionals, all civilians, knew this meant that
the
whole German fleet was about to put to sea on a sortie they already had
intelligence on.

However a nameless Commander (funny how that rank is so assossiated with
cock-ups in this field) got hold of the original signal, read it and
decided that the signal was a real movement of the German fleet command
ashore and informed his superiours that only the German battle cruisers
would put to sea, as at the Battle of Dogger Bank, and so the Royal
Navy
could ambush them with relative imopunity.

Jutland promptly followed...

Andrew Gordon's "Rules of the Game" goes into some detail. (Need to get
him to sign my copy, next time I run into him at Shrivenham :) )

Captain Thomas Jackson, Director of Operations, despised the
cryptographers in Room 40. On one of his very rare visits, he blustered
in and demanded to know the location of callsign DK, was told
"Wilhelmshaven" and left to pass that information on without further
investigating.

DK was Scheer's *harbour* callsign. It was *always* in Wilhelmshaven. On
that basis, though, Jackson reported to Rear-Admiral Oliver that the
High Seas Fleet was still tied up in the Jade, and this was signalled to
Jellicoe and Beatty, who were out intending to ambush Hipper's
battlecruisers.

Gordon analyses the consequences, which were less immediately awful than
sometimes claimed: Jellicoe might have made contact with the High Seas
Fleet sixteen minutes earlier had he increased speed rather than
continuing as he was. (More serious was the discount in credibility this
imposed on subsequent signals from the Admiralty during the battle).
Later, neither Jackson nor Oliver were present during the night action:
a junior watch officer, receiving the stream of decrypts from Room 40
and having no idea what they were, carefully filed them away out of
sight...

After that NO raw signals intelligence was allowed to be given to anyone
outside the intelligence services.

And Room 40 was moved from Operations to Intelligence. Sadly, it seems
Jackson was not cashiered for his incompetence. ("Ridiculous",
"blustering", "insufferable" and "buffoon" are among the terms the
usually measured and moderate Gordon uses to describe Jackson)
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk

I notice a similarity between Captain Jackson and another.


So did I...

That's why I thought it was a Commander...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

The Highlander

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av The Highlander » 23 aug 2007 22:34:28

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:40:53 -0500, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Jack Linthicum wrote:


So he knew about al-Qaeda. He knew that al-Qaeda was determined to
attack. The CIA even flew to dubya's vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas
to personally call his attention to the PDB.

And yet he did nothing about it.


Yes, because the Clintonm left-overs WERE SO INCOMPETENT!!!


You can't blame 9/11 on Bush, no matter how hard you try.
Note again that Clinton HAD SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES TO
KILL bin LAND AND DECIDED NOT TO.

**THAT** is the bottom line. Bush is trying very hard
to fight terrorism .. Clinton tried very hard NOT
to fight terrorism!

Nothing you can do will change that.

Doug McDonald

<yawn>

When does Children's Hour finish? Isn't it time for your game show, or
whatever?

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 23 aug 2007 23:07:48

On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

<snip inanity>

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 23 aug 2007 23:32:15

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:



On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

Inanity is saying that in 2001 plan hijackings were anything but a
thing of the past, with the added point that in the past there were no
suicide hijackers.

The fact remains that in 2001 there were NO PRECEDENTS of hijackers
flying planes into buildings, it was an INNOVATION. Live with it.

There are many other probable innovative attacks no one has thought of
yet. And even when someone does; it doesn't constitute a clear and
present danger, and no one is going to spend billions of dollars in
preventive measures for less than that. (Unless you are Bush)

You are projecting your hindsight to a time when no one, including
you, expected what happened on 9/11.

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 23 aug 2007 23:34:30

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:



On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

As a pilot, faced with the killing of one or more people on your
flight, would you do what you would assume was their intent? IE Fly to
wherever they wanted to go? These were the first suicide runs, only
the people on the Flight 93 got an idea it wasn't just "let's go to
Cuba" time it was death. And they died despite what they did to avoid
it.

The reciprocity of returning hijackers back to the originating country
had cooled the operation for years. After 1996 it was a more or less
dead end effort.

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 24 aug 2007 19:51:51

On Aug 24, 2:19 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hmmmmmm...

Word has it that frozen water is usually referred to as ICE...

But that may just be a rumor.

DSH

"Dennis" <tsalagiNOS...@asus.net> wrote in message

news:Xns9995CA8B5BDF0tsalagiNOSPAMasusnet@130.133.1.4...

I do think I saw reports that frozen water was sometimes seen on
said pod, as on the Alfas, possibly suggesting superconducting machinery
- or is that just a frozen climate? Is any of that correct?

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 24 aug 2007 20:41:21

On Aug 23, 4:32 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

Inanity is saying that in 2001 plan hijackings were anything but a
thing of the past, with the added point that in the past there were no
suicide hijackers.

Inanity is arguing that the growing popularity of suicide bombing
could not have been foreseen to extend to airliners.

<snip further inanity>

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 24 aug 2007 20:45:51

On Aug 23, 4:34 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

As a pilot, faced with the killing of one or more people on your
flight, would you do what you would assume was their intent?

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.
Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 aug 2007 20:55:45

You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?

DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.

Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 aug 2007 20:57:38

You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?...

Or threatening to cut them and then dragging things out until they can have
their way?

Video cameras can be easily disabled.

DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.

Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 24 aug 2007 21:18:35

On Aug 24, 3:57 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?...

Or threatening to cut them and then dragging things out until they can have
their way?

Video cameras can be easily disabled.

DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.
Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

Do you know where the hydraulic lines are on a 757? Do you think that
an experienced pilot could land an aircraft with partial controls?

a la Flight 232? a DC-10, which lost all hydraulic due to an engine
explosion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232

and others?

* American Airlines Flight 96 (12 June 1972): One of the first
incidents involving DC-10 hydraulic damage was this incident. The
situation was similar to the late bombing of Flight 434. After taking
off, a cargo door blew out, and hydraulic systems were severely
damaged. Using engine thrust, the captain managed to line the plane up
with the runway, and, with the elevators still responding, the plane
was landing manually. There was a fault in the cargo doors, but Flight
96 would be blamed on an Douglas employee, who recklessly, almost
violently, slammed the door shut just before takeoff.

* United Airlines Flight 232 (July 19, 1989): Another DC-10 that
found itself in trouble was UA232. The number two engine on the tail
blew out, shredding the hydraulic lines on the tail fin. Originally
bound for Chicago, the plane, carrying 296 passengers, was flown to
Sioux City by Denny Fitch and Al Haynes. Seconds before landing,
however, the nose and right wing dropped. At 04:00:16PM, the plane hit
the runway and disintegrated. Fuel was spilled, sparking a fire. Of
the 296 people onboard, 111 were killed.

* Philippine Airlines Flight 434 11 December 1994): A bomb
exploded on board, planted by terrorist Ramzi Yousef. Whilst complete
hydraulic loss was never confirmed, an aileron and control of the
stabilizer was damaged, and use of throttles as a means of steering
had to be employed. The pilots did successfully land the plane, and
only one passenger was killed by the bomb blast.

* Air Transat Flight 236 (August 24, 2001): Flight 236, which ran
out of fuel 65 miles off the Azores, lost a considerable amount of
hydraulic pressure due to double engine failure, although the pilots
managed to successfully land the plane.

* DHL shootdown incident in Baghdad (22 November 2003): The first
time in aviation history in which a plane was landed without any
hydraulics. It was hit by an insurgent's surface to air missile, and
the left wing was damaged. It landed at Baghdad airport.

Dennis

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Dennis » 24 aug 2007 22:12:45

Jack Linthicum wrote:

On Aug 24, 2:19 am, "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
Hmmmmmm...

Word has it that frozen water is usually referred to as ICE...

But that may just be a rumor.

"Dennis" wrote

I do think I saw reports that frozen water was sometimes seen on
said pod, as on the Alfas, possibly suggesting superconducting
machinery - or is that just a frozen climate? Is any of that
correct?

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice, which freezes at around -1.8 deg C, lower than plain ice.
A cold machine would also freeze atmospheric water vapor, so that would be
plain ice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice

Dennis

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 24 aug 2007 23:23:58

On Aug 24, 1:55 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?

In the first place, what good would that do them in terms of an intent
to highjack and land somewhere, or highjack and do a "kamikaze"
attack?
Second, how would they know where the flight control lines are or how
to get to them? Would they just start digging through all those layers
of plastic, shielding and insulation with their car keys, like garden
moles?
It's no wonder that you support Bush.






DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...



The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.
Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 24 aug 2007 23:28:37

On Aug 24, 2:18 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
On Aug 24, 3:57 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:





You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?...

Or threatening to cut them and then dragging things out until they can have
their way?

Video cameras can be easily disabled.

DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.
Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

Do you know where the hydraulic lines are on a 757? Do you think that
an experienced pilot could land an aircraft with partial controls?

a la Flight 232? a DC-10, which lost all hydraulic due to an engine
explosion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232

and others?

* American Airlines Flight 96 (12 June 1972): One of the first
incidents involving DC-10 hydraulic damage was this incident. The
situation was similar to the late bombing of Flight 434. After taking
off, a cargo door blew out, and hydraulic systems were severely
damaged. Using engine thrust, the captain managed to line the plane up
with the runway, and, with the elevators still responding, the plane
was landing manually. There was a fault in the cargo doors, but Flight
96 would be blamed on an Douglas employee, who recklessly, almost
violently, slammed the door shut just before takeoff.

* United Airlines Flight 232 (July 19, 1989): Another DC-10 that
found itself in trouble was UA232. The number two engine on the tail
blew out, shredding the hydraulic lines on the tail fin. Originally
bound for Chicago, the plane, carrying 296 passengers, was flown to
Sioux City by Denny Fitch and Al Haynes. Seconds before landing,
however, the nose and right wing dropped. At 04:00:16PM, the plane hit
the runway and disintegrated. Fuel was spilled, sparking a fire. Of
the 296 people onboard, 111 were killed.

* Philippine Airlines Flight 434 11 December 1994): A bomb
exploded on board, planted by terrorist Ramzi Yousef. Whilst complete
hydraulic loss was never confirmed, an aileron and control of the
stabilizer was damaged, and use of throttles as a means of steering
had to be employed. The pilots did successfully land the plane, and
only one passenger was killed by the bomb blast.

* Air Transat Flight 236 (August 24, 2001): Flight 236, which ran
out of fuel 65 miles off the Azores, lost a considerable amount of
hydraulic pressure due to double engine failure, although the pilots
managed to successfully land the plane.

* DHL shootdown incident in Baghdad (22 November 2003): The first
time in aviation history in which a plane was landed without any
hydraulics. It was hit by an insurgent's surface to air missile, and
the left wing was damaged. It landed at Baghdad airport.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And even if they could cripple the systems, what good would that do
them in terms of plans to force the airliner to a new landing locale,
or to conduct a 911 type attack?
All these neocons share a certain ineptitude in understanding things
obvious even to a intelligent high schooler.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 25 aug 2007 02:22:24

On Aug 24, 3:41 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 23, 4:32 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:



On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

Inanity is saying that in 2001 plan hijackings were anything but a
thing of the past, with the added point that in the past there were no
suicide hijackers.

Inanity is arguing that the growing popularity of suicide bombing
could not have been foreseen to extend to airliners.

snip further inanity

And Ken adds the flourish of a strawman to camouflage his inane
argument.

NO ONE said that it could not have been foreseen. Therefore you are
now debating a point of your own invention.

You continue to fail to grasp that the mere perception of a threat
that IS NOT a clear and present great danger will not trigger multi-
billion spending anticipating it.

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .

What strawman will you think up next to prolong your inane argument?

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 25 aug 2007 02:24:10

On Aug 24, 1:18 am, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187908335.549893.322340@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The fact remains that in 2001 there were NO PRECEDENTS of hijackers
flying planes into buildings, it was an INNOVATION. Live with it.

but there was precedent of PLANES BEING HIJACKED.
you are an idiot tiglette

The precedent was but a memory. We didn't have a hijacking problem
in 2001 as we did in the 70s. Stupid ass.

Tiglath

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Tiglath » 25 aug 2007 02:29:11

On Aug 24, 3:57 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?...

Or threatening to cut them and then dragging things out until they can have
their way?

Video cameras can be easily disabled.


No Ken and Ray see it perfectly logic that because Black September
hijacked planes in the 70s -- their so called precedent -- 30 years
later all of a sudden airlines CEOs wake up one morning feeling a
compulsion to sink further into the red by ordering a general
refitting of cockpit doors, just in case.

How stupid can people get projecting their hindsight?

Now we know.










DSH

"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1187984751.047472.10840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

The discussion is focusing on having strong enough cockpit doors to
stop someone from breaking in; accompanied with a video camera of the
passenger compartment.
Then the pilot's decision is simply to declare an emergency an land as
soon as possible.

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 25 aug 2007 02:58:36

On Aug 24, 7:22 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 24, 3:41 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:





On Aug 23, 4:32 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:55 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 23, 11:13 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:31 am, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:18 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:

"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187818353.214431.135820@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 22, 3:07 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187801726.685952.112280@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Monday morning quarterbacking.

a term used to excuse continuing failure.
successful NFL teams look at what happened sunday on monday to see what
happened and what needs to be fixed.

Which doesn't apply to 9/11, because nothing had happened on "Sunday";
only after it happened clever trevors "saw it coming."

that and the assessment. "bin laden determined to attack" that bush ignored.

"Monday morning quarterbacking" doesn't mean "post-mortem, lessons-
learned review" as you imply.

It means criticizing with the benefit of hindsight those who without
it failed to act in a winning way, especially in reference to dealing
with unforseen circumstances.

To say that Bush should not have invaded Iraq is not it, because the
current difficulties were far from unforseen.

To say that all cockpits should have been made hijack proof is it, for
nobody anticipated 9/11, even though Tenet did urged Rice to attack Al-
Qaeda in Afghanistan -- not quite the same.

Let's say that someone lives in a bad neighborhood with a lot of home
intrusions going on. It's only common sense that using flimsy doors,
poor locks and lack of a door peephole only invites trouble.
That's not hindsight.

Agree. And your example is not analogous to 9/11 either.

In the wake of decades of highjackings and suicide attacks using cars
and trucks, only one lacking in common sense would think that barring
access of terrorists and the insane to airliners' cockpits was
hindsight.

snip inanity

Inanity is saying that in 2001 plan hijackings were anything but a
thing of the past, with the added point that in the past there were no
suicide hijackers.

Inanity is arguing that the growing popularity of suicide bombing
could not have been foreseen to extend to airliners.

snip further inanity

And Ken adds the flourish of a strawman to camouflage his inane
argument.

This isn't even a good strawman that you are trying to erect.
<snip further inanity>

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 25 aug 2007 03:03:41

On Aug 24, 7:29 pm, Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
On Aug 24, 3:57 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

You don't think terrorists are smart enough to play out that scenario with a
number of tactics -- one of which is cutting the hydraulic lines?...

Or threatening to cut them and then dragging things out until they can have
their way?

Video cameras can be easily disabled.

No Ken and Ray see it perfectly logic that because Black September
hijacked planes in the 70s -- their so called precedent -- 30 years
later all of a sudden airlines CEOs wake up one morning feeling a
compulsion to sink further into the red by ordering a general
refitting of cockpit doors, just in case.

How stupid can people get projecting their hindsight?

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.
You're showing your own stupidity in not recognizing that much or all
the impetus to effect such measures should have come from insurers and
re-insurers (as I pointed out in a prior post).
But go ahead and keep digging.

Andrew Swallow

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Andrew Swallow » 25 aug 2007 03:06:05

Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 24, 1:18 am, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187908335.549893.322340@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The fact remains that in 2001 there were NO PRECEDENTS of hijackers
flying planes into buildings, it was an INNOVATION. Live with it.
but there was precedent of PLANES BEING HIJACKED.
you are an idiot tiglette

The precedent was but a memory. We didn't have a hijacking problem
in 2001 as we did in the 70s. Stupid ass.

The fortified doors should have been fitted during the 1970s.

Andrew Swallow

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 aug 2007 03:45:01

Tiglath is quite correct here.

Pogue Gans doesn't understand these simple Truths either....

Because he is Willfully Ignorant.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------

"Tiglath" <temp5@tiglath.net> wrote in message
news:1188004944.976949.189640@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

And Ken adds the flourish of a strawman to camouflage his inane
argument.

NO ONE said that it could not have been foreseen. Therefore you are
now debating a point of your own invention.

You continue to fail to grasp that the mere perception of a threat
that IS NOT a clear and present great danger will not trigger multi-
billion spending anticipating it.

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .

What strawman will you think up next to prolong your inane argument?

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 25 aug 2007 04:26:50

Andrew Swallow wrote:
Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 24, 1:18 am, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187908335.549893.322340@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The fact remains that in 2001 there were NO PRECEDENTS of hijackers
flying planes into buildings, it was an INNOVATION. Live with it.
but there was precedent of PLANES BEING HIJACKED.
you are an idiot tiglette

The precedent was but a memory. We didn't have a hijacking problem
in 2001 as we did in the 70s. Stupid ass.

The fortified doors should have been fitted during the 1970s.

Some airlines did...El Al comes to mind.

Deirdre

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 25 aug 2007 04:29:11

Jack Linthicum wrote:

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice.

Deirdre

William Black

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av William Black » 25 aug 2007 10:33:52

"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.

No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 25 aug 2007 14:21:11

Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .



That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 25 aug 2007 14:21:11

Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .



That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 25 aug 2007 14:21:11

Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .



That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 25 aug 2007 14:21:11

Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .



That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 25 aug 2007 14:21:11

Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .



That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 25 aug 2007 16:05:04

On Aug 25, 3:33 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.

No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

That's not right either. People and organizations often pay for
various measures because the preventitve is so much cheaper than the
bad outcome. However, as I stated several times in this thread,
insurers, re-insurers and the US Federal Govt. also had interests in
airliner security and could have required systematic security measures
that would precluded anyone taking over an airliner cockpit.



--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 25 aug 2007 16:17:32

William Black wrote:
"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.

No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

When a corporate entity has costs they're invariably passed
along to the end consumer...just as the cost of industrial
pollution controls ended up being financed by the customers,
so too, the cost of airline security is paid by the passengers.
Anyway, it's cheaper to strengthen a door than to replace
a commandeered (and crashed) 747...and considerably less
of a public relations nightmare.

Deirdre

Jack Linthicum

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 25 aug 2007 16:19:00

On Aug 25, 11:05 am, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Aug 25, 3:33 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:

"Ken Wood" <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.

No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

That's not right either. People and organizations often pay for
various measures because the preventitve is so much cheaper than the
bad outcome. However, as I stated several times in this thread,
insurers, re-insurers and the US Federal Govt. also had interests in
airliner security and could have required systematic security measures
that would precluded anyone taking over an airliner cockpit.



They did, they are called "extradition treaties"

Ken Wood

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Ken Wood » 25 aug 2007 16:32:54

On Aug 24, 8:06 pm, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Tiglath wrote:
On Aug 24, 1:18 am, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message

news:1187908335.549893.322340@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 23, 6:07 pm, Ken Wood <ken_woo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The fact remains that in 2001 there were NO PRECEDENTS of hijackers
flying planes into buildings, it was an INNOVATION. Live with it.
but there was precedent of PLANES BEING HIJACKED.
you are an idiot tiglette

The precedent was but a memory. We didn't have a hijacking problem
in 2001 as we did in the 70s. Stupid ass.

The fortified doors should have been fitted during the 1970s.

Andrew Swallow

Correct. And the growing popularity of suicide bomber mass murders in
'80s and '90s made the need more obvious. Contrary to Condi Rice's
statements, this type of attack was foreseen by some security people
and some fiction writers. For people getting paid to assess risks and
maintain safety in the airline industry, it should not have been a big
leap. But we can see from the obtuseness of some of these posts, what
someone would have been up against in trying to get security improved.

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 25 aug 2007 16:48:42

Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
William Black wrote:
"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.
No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

When a corporate entity has costs they're invariably passed
along to the end consumer...

Actually not. this is one of the great myths presented routinely

If it were true doctors would not worry about health insurance costs
costs, they would just pass it on

Whether regulatory costs can be Passed on" depends on the demand for the
industry and whether the costs equally affect all producers

BA was just nailed for price fixing on fuel surcharges.



just as the cost of industrial
pollution controls ended up being financed by the customers,
so too, the cost of airline security is paid by the passengers.
Anyway, it's cheaper to strengthen a door than to replace
a commandeered (and crashed) 747...and considerably less
of a public relations nightmare.

Deirdre

Vince

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 aug 2007 18:43:20

On Aug 22, 9:22 am, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
a.spencer3 wrote:

It concluded that Tenet "did not use all of his authorities" in leading a
strategic effort against Osama bin Laden, and that "the management
approach"
within the CIA's counterterrorism center "had the effect of actively
reinforcing the separation of responsibilities" among the agency's
divisions.

Typical retrospective scapegoating.

The enture protection of the USA rested in one man?

Or were all those other suddenly-now-knowledgable people too scared to
mention possibilities to him?

What disgusting rubbish.

Its not rubbish. The various people and groups who might have
been able to prevent 9/11, as later attacks have been prevented, were
PREVENTED from doing so because of regulations prohibiting
data sharing, put in place during the Clinton administration. Tenet
was a holdover, of course. Bush had had neither the time nor
inclination to remedy this, indeed, while it was obviously
a serious mistake to not have agencies share information,
the immediate danger was not obvious because of the lack
on information sharing, thus leading to no urgency in
correcting the problem. Its thus a circular chain
of blundering stupidities which ultimately issued
from Bush's predecessors. Today at least we are not
acting like the proverbial ostrich. We can't be perfect, but
at least we do worry about being imperfect, as Clinton
most emphatically and disastrously for 3000 people did not.

Doug McDonald

My hunch is that some Reagan/Bush disciples dearly wanted something to
happen during Clinton's watch. When Egypt Air 990 was splashed and the
Seattle
Millenium bomber was caught at the border the Bushies were
disappointed. The
last chance was to sail the USS Cole into a known shithole of Yemen
and not post
any guard boats.

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 25 aug 2007 19:04:00

Vince wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

William Black wrote:
"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.
No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.

When a corporate entity has costs they're invariably passed
along to the end consumer...

Actually not. this is one of the great myths presented routinely

If it were true doctors would not worry about health insurance costs
costs, they would just pass it on

They _do_...why do you think an office visit which
was $45 fifteen years ago is $125 today? It isn't
because their infrastructure overhead has gone up
that much, it's because their malpractice rates have.

Whether regulatory costs can be Passed on" depends on the demand for the
industry and whether the costs equally affect all producers

They've _already_ managed to pass the cost of airport
security along to us. $18 in Airport Passenger Facility
Charges, $2.50 for a September 11th Security Fee (per
flight segment capping at a $10 max), $3.40 for Federal
Segment Fees _plus_ a $14.60 Travel Facilities Tax.

Do you not fly or examine at the line item charges on your
tickets? Airfare pricing is so volatile that you have no
way of knowing what costs an airline is burying in the
amount.

Deirdre

Andrew Swallow

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Andrew Swallow » 25 aug 2007 19:32:12

Ken Wood wrote:
[snip]

That's not right either. People and organizations often pay for
various measures because the preventitve is so much cheaper than the
bad outcome. However, as I stated several times in this thread,
insurers, re-insurers and the US Federal Govt. also had interests in
airliner security and could have required systematic security measures
that would precluded anyone taking over an airliner cockpit.

Governments and insurance companies are not inventors but they
do write regulations requiring you to copy someone else. Until
a normal airline fitted strong doors they could not order copying.

Andrew Swallow

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 25 aug 2007 20:02:33

Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
Vince wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
William Black wrote:
"Ken Wood" <ken_wood56@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188007421.427097.88800@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The expenses of installing strong doors and a video system were minor.
No expense is minor if it comes out of your own .pocket.
When a corporate entity has costs they're invariably passed
along to the end consumer...
Actually not. this is one of the great myths presented routinely

If it were true doctors would not worry about health insurance costs
costs, they would just pass it on

They _do_...why do you think an office visit which
was $45 fifteen years ago is $125 today? It isn't
because their infrastructure overhead has gone up
that much, it's because their malpractice rates have.

Don't swllow ama political bullshit

Malpractice is a very small part of office visit costs

But far more than that

All vendors, all vendors charge whatever the market will bear

NO MATTER WHAT THEIR COSTS ARE

General motors and Toyota both price cars by what the market will pay
for them

If for example you fine GM a million dollars for polluting the water,
they cant raise the price of cars over Toyota
Whether regulatory costs can be Passed on" depends on the demand for the
industry and whether the costs equally affect all producers

They've _already_ managed to pass the cost of airport
security along to us. $18 in Airport Passenger Facility
Charges, $2.50 for a September 11th Security Fee (per
flight segment capping at a $10 max), $3.40 for Federal
Segment Fees _plus_ a $14.60 Travel Facilities Tax.


nonsense. if yo were not paying these fees, you would be paying higher
fares. Air travel is priced at what the market will pay for such
travel. The passenger does not care if they are called fees or fares.

Do you not fly or examine at the line item charges on your
tickets? Airfare pricing is so volatile that you have no
way of knowing what costs an airline is burying in the
amount.


but you only pay the final amount so you don't care.

its like houses

if you increase the interst rate, prices go down.

Vince

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 25 aug 2007 21:20:47

Vince wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

Vince wrote:

Whether regulatory costs can be Passed on" depends on the demand for the
industry and whether the costs equally affect all producers

They've _already_ managed to pass the cost of airport
security along to us. $18 in Airport Passenger Facility
Charges, $2.50 for a September 11th Security Fee (per
flight segment capping at a $10 max), $3.40 for Federal
Segment Fees _plus_ a $14.60 Travel Facilities Tax.

nonsense. if yo were not paying these fees, you would be paying higher
fares.

At the risk of sounding obvious..."Duh". That's precisely
what I was saying...the cost are passed on to the consumer
or did you manage to lose track of what the discussion
was about?

its like houses

if you increase the interst rate, prices go down.

Interest rates have been steadily rising here...as have
purchase prices...maybe you just live in a lousy neigh-
bourhood.

Deirdre

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 25 aug 2007 21:55:20

Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
Vince wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
Vince wrote:

Whether regulatory costs can be Passed on" depends on the demand for the
industry and whether the costs equally affect all producers
They've _already_ managed to pass the cost of airport
security along to us. $18 in Airport Passenger Facility
Charges, $2.50 for a September 11th Security Fee (per
flight segment capping at a $10 max), $3.40 for Federal
Segment Fees _plus_ a $14.60 Travel Facilities Tax.
nonsense. if yo were not paying these fees, you would be paying higher
fares.

At the risk of sounding obvious..."Duh".

Teh risk is your sounign ignorant but I'll try again

That's precisely
what I was saying...the cost are passed on to the consumer
or did you manage to lose track of what the discussion
was about?

you are missing the point completely

you will pay 100 to fly boston to ny

no more

If the fare is 80 and the fees are 20 you pay 100

if the fees are 30 the fare drops to 70 or you dont fly

That is is the iron law of the demand curve

If we raise sales taxes prices drop until the sellers will no longer
sell the product

its like houses

if you increase the interst rate, prices go down.

Interest rates have been steadily rising here...as have
purchase prices...maybe you just live in a lousy neigh-
bourhood.

Deirdre

Fantasy land
They cant

or at least the houses don't sell





FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Debunking theese fantasies was our bread and butter


Vince

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 aug 2007 22:24:11

How successful do you think you were in teaching this very simple Consumer
Economics to students who may have previously been brain-washed by former
hippy, Marxist high-school teachers?...

Who simply taught them to hate and distrust "Big Business".

DSH

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:J-KdnSm0uLyiCk3bnZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@comcast.com...

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Debunking theese fantasies was our bread and butter.

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 25 aug 2007 23:14:19

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
How successful do you think you were in teaching this very simple Consumer
Economics to students who may have previously been brain-washed by former
hippy, Marxist high-school teachers?...

Who simply taught them to hate and distrust "Big Business".

DSH

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:J-KdnSm0uLyiCk3bnZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@comcast.com...

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Debunking theese fantasies was our bread and butter.


I taught them to worry about anyone who could kill them for a dollar and
bribe a legislator or a regulator to get away with it.

has nothing to do with Marxism or any other political philosophy

In the code of Hammurabi it says


If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it
properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then
that builder shall be put to death.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

Corporations are experts at buying off responsibility for disasters, so
are marxist governments


Vince

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 26 aug 2007 00:40:08

Vince wrote:

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think
readers can be forgiven for believing that your lack of
attention to detail wrt to things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life...thereby
explaining your inability to comprehend the simple
business paradigm of passing costs, plus a margin for
profit, along to the end consumer.

Debunking theese fantasies was our bread and butter

Given your diet seems to mainly be eating the cost of
doing business, I expect bread and butter makes for a
nice change.

Deirdre

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 26 aug 2007 00:44:50

Paul J Gans wrote:
In alt.history.british Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Jack Linthicum wrote:

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice.

Sea ice differs in its salt content by age. And the salt is
not distributed at all evenly throughout.

It's still frozen salt water...the lack of homogeneity
in a solid phase will not prevent it from being "salt
water" in a liquid one.

Deirdre

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 26 aug 2007 01:27:44

Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
Vince wrote:

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think
readers can be forgiven for believing that your lack of
attention to detail wrt to things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life

They would be wrong since Posting is an amusement

however I am an awful speller and have even worse handwriting

I am told I must have been an absolute legal genius to pass the bar
first time out with my handicaps in spelling grammar and handwriting
writing

Vince

Paul J Gans

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 26 aug 2007 01:39:03

In alt.history.british Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Jack Linthicum wrote:

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice.

Sea ice differs in its salt content by age. And the salt is
not distributed at all evenly throughout.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Dennis

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Dennis » 26 aug 2007 04:19:03

Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

Paul J Gans wrote:

In alt.history.british Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Jack Linthicum wrote:

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice.

Sea ice differs in its salt content by age. And the salt is
not distributed at all evenly throughout.

It's still frozen salt water...the lack of homogeneity
in a solid phase will not prevent it from being "salt
water" in a liquid one.

Nonetheless, what's the answer to the original question: do Russian
submarines contain superconducting machinery? I strongly suspect the
answer is 'no'.

Dennis

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 aug 2007 05:34:23

On Aug 25, 6:21 am, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:
Tiglath wrote:

I repeat, NOBODY, including yourself (unless you can produce posts
warning the world urgently of the danger of suicide hijackers dated
before 9/11 -- can you?) thought that suicide plane hijackers were an
imminent threat. Therefore, it is INANE to say that people should
have fortified planes to prevent such attacks when such attacks were
merely a possibility, foreseen by few if you will, but not as an
imminent threat warranting costly action worldwide action. .

That is good reasoning. In fact I personally HAD thought of
the exact 9/11 scenario before it happened .. along with
hundreds of other similar things. This is, even if the
"powers that be" had also done so, meaningless. The political
climate of the time was the "feel-good" period left over from
the end of the Clinton years ... remember the talk about
"the end of history"?

I had even worried, at the time, about what **I** would
have done to protect America. The list was very long, and
included, yes, protecting airplanes, but also ... which
still has not been done as far as I know, providing
antiaircraft and antimissle missle batteries protection for
iconic places (not just Washington DC or New York).
This includes the Golden Gate and San Francisco Bay
bridges, the Sears Tower, and the Upper Geyser Basin,
among many others, but those are the top ones.

One cannot blame Bush without blaming Clinton ...
and the whole gaggle of "opinion setting" press wags
of the day.

Remember that today we are not even trying to protect our borders.
No attempt at all is being made, and, in fact, there
are very strong efforts by the Left and even certain
elements of the Right to allow unlimited access to anybody who
can somehow get into Mexico. All the stuff at airports is
not even an attempt to keep out terrorists, rather, to
prevent another 9/11 clone attack.

Doug McDonald

There you go again. Aren't you the same guy who, just after 9/11, was
calling for the death of all Muslims & Arabs? I recall getting such
emails from you. When I pointed out that many of the people who died
in the 9/11 attacks were Muslims (other than the terrorists -
passengers, WTC workers & visitors, etc.), you put them into a
category different from others who died with them and said you felt
nothing for them. With such extreme views, you do not have the moral
authority to criticize anyone.

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 aug 2007 05:38:28

On Aug 25, 2:24 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
How successful do you think you were in teaching this very simple Consumer
Economics to students who may have previously been brain-washed by former
hippy, Marxist high-school teachers?...

Who simply taught them to hate and distrust "Big Business".

DSH

"Vince" <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote in message

news:J-KdnSm0uLyiCk3bnZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@comcast.com...



FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Debunking theese fantasies was our bread and butter.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Big Business? Oh, you mean the totalitarian wing of the US.

Gjest

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 aug 2007 05:41:45

On Aug 25, 5:27 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

Vince wrote:

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think
readers can be forgiven for believing that your lack of
attention to detail wrt to things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life

They would be wrong since Posting is an amusement

however I am an awful speller and have even worse handwriting

I am told I must have been an absolute legal genius to pass the bar
first time out with my handicaps in spelling grammar and handwriting
writing

Vince

In graduate school (lo, these many years ago...I am retired now) I
recall that the women were honing their writing & typing skills while
the men were learning how to get the women to do it for them! :)

Brian Sharrock

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Brian Sharrock » 26 aug 2007 09:25:56

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:Y5ydnX5ZkduaVE3bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

Vince wrote:

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland

Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think readers can be
forgiven for believing that your lack of attention to detail wrt to
things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life

They would be wrong since Posting is an amusement

however I am an awful speller and have even worse handwriting

I am told I must have been an absolute legal genius to pass the bar first
time out with my handicaps in spelling grammar and handwriting writing

Vince


Do you attribute your 'pass the bar' to your genius or Affirmative Action?

--

Brian

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 26 aug 2007 13:07:32

lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 25, 5:27 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:

Vince wrote:
FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland
Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think
readers can be forgiven for believing that your lack of
attention to detail wrt to things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life
They would be wrong since Posting is an amusement

however I am an awful speller and have even worse handwriting

I am told I must have been an absolute legal genius to pass the bar
first time out with my handicaps in spelling grammar and handwriting
writing

Vince

In graduate school (lo, these many years ago...I am retired now) I
recall that the women were honing their writing & typing skills while
the men were learning how to get the women to do it for them! :)


I married a medical student. She used to bring home these sharp little
bits and practice on me

Vince

Vince

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Vince » 26 aug 2007 13:13:25

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:Y5ydnX5ZkduaVE3bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
Vince wrote:

FWIW I was from 1977-1991 Lecturer, Assistant prof, Associate Professor
and Professor in the Consumer Economics program of the U of Maryland
Was your teaching as sloppy as your posts? I think readers can be
forgiven for believing that your lack of attention to detail wrt to
things like spelling and gram-
mar spills over into other areas of your life
They would be wrong since Posting is an amusement

however I am an awful speller and have even worse handwriting

I am told I must have been an absolute legal genius to pass the bar first
time out with my handicaps in spelling grammar and handwriting writing

Vince


Do you attribute your 'pass the bar' to your genius or Affirmative Action?


Grading the bar exam is anonymous

Vince

Paul J Gans

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 26 aug 2007 18:07:02

In alt.history.british Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Paul J Gans wrote:

In alt.history.british Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Jack Linthicum wrote:

What do you call "frozen salt water"?

Sea ice.

Sea ice differs in its salt content by age. And the salt is
not distributed at all evenly throughout.

It's still frozen salt water...the lack of homogeneity
in a solid phase will not prevent it from being "salt
water" in a liquid one.

The basic point (nobody seems to want to actually try it) is
that there is a phase separation on freezing. What solidifes
first is essentially pure water.

Eventually the remaining water reaches the saturation point
and what then freezes out is essentially pure water with an
admixture of salt It looks cloudy because of the solid salt
present.

This is what happens if you freeze the salt water slowly. If
you freeze it rapidly you do get "frozen salt water". But it
isn't in equilibrium and will slowly revert.

Ice water in the arctic, the older it is, the purer the ice since
the salt so to speak "works its way" to the surface.

Thus there is really no such thing as frozen salt water. What
you call it when it is melted has nothing to do with it.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

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