Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

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Dana S. Leslie

Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 22 aug 2007 00:56:38

In both Leo's database and most other sources I've consulted, BOTH the
father AND son of Alfonse Jourdain, Count of Toulouse, are styled Raymond V,
and the Raymond before the earlier fifth is the fourth, and the Raymond
after the later fifth is the sixth. Can anyone explain this oddity? Thank
you.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Peter Stewart

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 01:25:34

On Aug 22, 9:56 am, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
In both Leo's database and most other sources I've consulted, BOTH the
father AND son of Alfonse Jourdain, Count of Toulouse, are styled Raymond V,
and the Raymond before the earlier fifth is the fourth, and the Raymond
after the later fifth is the sixth. Can anyone explain this oddity? Thank
you.

The numbering of counts of toulouse named Raymond was never definite,
and this has been complicated further in the past few decades by the
discovery of another, earlier, namesake who was formerly not
identified separately.

The consequence of this is that Alfonse Jourdain's father is now
usually called Raymond VI. He became count of Toulouse in 1088 and
died near Tripoli on 28 February 1105. Alfonse Jourdain was the only
son of his third marriage, the mother being Elvira who was daughter of
King Alfonso VI of Castile by a mistress.

Alfonse Jourdain became count of Toulouse ca 1108/12 (when his elder
half-brother departed on crusade, to be count of Tripoli), and was
himself murdered at Caesarea on 16 April 1148.

His son and successor is normally called Raymond VII today.

Peter Stewart

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 22 aug 2007 02:55:46

Peter,

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1187742334.197330.308940@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 22, 9:56 am, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
In both Leo's database and most other sources I've consulted, BOTH the
father AND son of Alfonse Jourdain, Count of Toulouse, are styled Raymond
V,
and the Raymond before the earlier fifth is the fourth, and the Raymond
after the later fifth is the sixth. Can anyone explain this oddity? Thank
you.

The numbering of counts of toulouse named Raymond was never definite,
and this has been complicated further in the past few decades by the
discovery of another, earlier, namesake who was formerly not
identified separately.

The consequence of this is that Alfonse Jourdain's father is now
usually called Raymond VI. He became count of Toulouse in 1088 and
died near Tripoli on 28 February 1105. Alfonse Jourdain was the only
son of his third marriage, the mother being Elvira who was daughter of
King Alfonso VI of Castile by a mistress.

Alfonse Jourdain became count of Toulouse ca 1108/12 (when his elder
half-brother departed on crusade, to be count of Tripoli), and was
himself murdered at Caesarea on 16 April 1148.

His son and successor is normally called Raymond VII today.

I assume, then, that the Raymond of Toulouse who married Joan Plantagenet
is, nowadays, styled Raymond VIII?

can you help me straighten out the numbering of the Raymonds of Toulouse who
preceded William III Taillefer?

Thank you,.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Peter Stewart

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 03:43:48

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:oIMyi.55454$rH6.11837@newsfe22.lga...
Peter,

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1187742334.197330.308940@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 22, 9:56 am, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
In both Leo's database and most other sources I've consulted, BOTH the
father AND son of Alfonse Jourdain, Count of Toulouse, are styled
Raymond V,
and the Raymond before the earlier fifth is the fourth, and the Raymond
after the later fifth is the sixth. Can anyone explain this oddity?
Thank
you.

The numbering of counts of toulouse named Raymond was never definite,
and this has been complicated further in the past few decades by the
discovery of another, earlier, namesake who was formerly not
identified separately.

The consequence of this is that Alfonse Jourdain's father is now
usually called Raymond VI. He became count of Toulouse in 1088 and
died near Tripoli on 28 February 1105. Alfonse Jourdain was the only
son of his third marriage, the mother being Elvira who was daughter of
King Alfonso VI of Castile by a mistress.

Alfonse Jourdain became count of Toulouse ca 1108/12 (when his elder
half-brother departed on crusade, to be count of Tripoli), and was
himself murdered at Caesarea on 16 April 1148.

His son and successor is normally called Raymond VII today.

I assume, then, that the Raymond of Toulouse who married Joan Plantagenet
is, nowadays, styled Raymond VIII?

can you help me straighten out the numbering of the Raymonds of Toulouse
who preceded William III Taillefer?

Dana, I think the most useful help I can give is to suggest that you search
the archive for posts from Todd Farmerie and Nat Taylor on this subject.
There is a fair bit of confusion around the succession of counts in
Toulouse, even in recent printed works, and they are the experts in sorting
this out.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av taf » 22 aug 2007 06:00:55

On Aug 21, 6:55 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
can you help me straighten out the numbering of the Raymonds of Toulouse who
preceded William III Taillefer?

For more detail, you can check the archives, but there is little
debate down to Raymond Pons, traditionally Raymond III. He was said by
the vast majority of older sources to have been father of William III,
in spite of long chronology. However, this reconstruction was
rendered obsolete by the discovery of a couple of charters which
suggest at least one intervening Raymond, while the Codice de Roda
(previously dismissed as erroneous for not showing William III as son
of Raymond Pons, but now viewed in a different light) appears to
suggest two overlooked Raymonds between Raymond Pons and William.

Further, because of the unusual double name, some renderings have
chosen to refer to the third simply as Raymond Pons, and then his
successor as Raymond III.

Thus, in recent material, I have seen the following (new Raymonds
marked with +):

Previous consensus:
Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond IV, etc.

A. Raymond II
Raymond Pons
+ Raymond III
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond IV, etc.

B. Raymond II
Raymond Pons
+ Raymond III
+ Raymond IV
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond V, etc.

C. Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
+ Raymond IV
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond V, etc.

D. Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
+ Raymond IV
+ Raymond V
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond VI, etc.

I find the argument in favor of two new Raymonds to be the stronger
(based on the Roda Codex), and think leaving one Raymond out of the
numbering to be arbitrary. That being said, a renumbering at this
point is sure to result in confusion every time anyone looks at an
older resource.

Something similar took place with the Lusignan Hughs, but most authors
have preferred to keep the old numbering, and leave the new Hugh
unnumbered. Similarly, a new king Alfonso has been put forward for the
Asturias/Leon/Castile kingdom (still debated), but even those who
favor his addition to the kings list prefer to leave him unnumbered so
as not to disrupt the established system.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 06:28:58

Talk about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Hilarious!

Only a mediocre academic gone to seed could think an issue such as this
worth laboring over, explicating -- and then renumbering the Raymonds.

but even those who favor his addition to the kings list prefer to
leave him unnumbered so as not to disrupt the established system.

Thank God for a few sensible people who choose that quite laudable view

DSH
-------------------------

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1187758855.257509.3750@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 21, 6:55 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:

can you help me straighten out the numbering of the Raymonds of Toulouse
who
preceded William III Taillefer?

For more detail, you can check the archives, but there is little
debate down to Raymond Pons, traditionally Raymond III. He was said by
the vast majority of older sources to have been father of William III,
in spite of long chronology. However, this reconstruction was
rendered obsolete by the discovery of a couple of charters which
suggest at least one intervening Raymond, while the Codice de Roda
(previously dismissed as erroneous for not showing William III as son
of Raymond Pons, but now viewed in a different light) appears to
suggest two overlooked Raymonds between Raymond Pons and William.

Further, because of the unusual double name, some renderings have
chosen to refer to the third simply as Raymond Pons, and then his
successor as Raymond III.

Thus, in recent material, I have seen the following (new Raymonds
marked with +):

Previous consensus:
Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond IV, etc.

A. Raymond II
Raymond Pons
+ Raymond III
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond IV, etc.

B. Raymond II
Raymond Pons
+ Raymond III
+ Raymond IV
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond V, etc.

C. Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
+ Raymond IV
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond V, etc.

D. Raymond II
Raymond III Pons
+ Raymond IV
+ Raymond V
William III
Pons
William IV
Raymond VI, etc.

I find the argument in favor of two new Raymonds to be the stronger
(based on the Roda Codex), and think leaving one Raymond out of the
numbering to be arbitrary. That being said, a renumbering at this
point is sure to result in confusion every time anyone looks at an
older resource.

Something similar took place with the Lusignan Hughs, but most authors
have preferred to keep the old numbering, and leave the new Hugh
unnumbered. Similarly, a new king Alfonso has been put forward for the
Asturias/Leon/Castile kingdom (still debated), but even those who
favor his addition to the kings list prefer to leave him unnumbered so
as not to disrupt the established system.

taf

Peter Stewart

Re: Raymond V, Count of Toulouse?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 06:42:05

On Aug 22, 3:28 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Talk about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Hilarious!

Only a mediocre academic gone to seed could think an issue such as this
worth laboring over, explicating -- and then renumbering the Raymonds.

What? Jean-Pierre Poly is no "mediocre academic gone to seed" and of
course the history of Toulouse is worth labouring over and
explicating, including the succession of its rulers - just as surely
as the queens of Hawaii are worth getting right.

Peter Stewart

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