Dear Newsgroup ~
Sir Roger Clarendon (died 1402) has been alleged in various printed
sources to have been an illegitimate son of Edward of Woodstock (also
known as Edward the Black Prince), Prince of Wales (died 1376), the
son and heir apparent of King Edward III of England. Sir Roger was
certainly a legatee in the will of the Black Prince, who bequeathed
him a silk bed, but he is not there styled the prince's son
[Reference: Nichols, Coll. of All the Wills (1780): 66-82]. Nor is
Sir Roger's parentage given in any crown record of the time period
that I've searched.
Elsewhere, however, I've located three sources which directly refer to
Sir Roger Clarendon as the Black Prince's son, namely:
1. Harris, The Reg, of the Guild of the Holy Trinity, St. Mary, St.
John the Baptist and St. Katherine of Coventry 1 (Dugdale Soc. 13)
(1935): x, xxiii-xxiv, 59, 107, which source gives a contemporary
listing of the membership in Trinity Guild, in Coventry, Warwickshre.
The entry for Sir Roger Clarendon reads as follows:
"Die mercurii proximo post festum Annunciacionis beate Marie, Anno
domini Millesimo CCCmo septuagesimo sexto, Dominus Rogerus de
Claryngdon, miles, filius excellentissimi domini nostri, Princicipis
Wall' ").
2. Walsingham, Historia Anglicana 2 (Rolls Ser. 28) (1864): 249, which
relates sub A.D. 1402 the following information:
"Suspensus est etiam eo tempore miles Rogerus de Clarindon, filius, ut
dicebatur, nothus quondam nobilis Principis Edwardi, filii Regis
Edwardi, Tertii a Conquæstu; et, cum eo, suus armiger et valectus; eo
quod accusati de proditione, defecerunt in purgatione.").
3. Fox, Book of Martyrs (1813): 716, which indicates that a list of
articles were set upon church doors against King Henry the Fourth in
1405: "... Seventhly, We depose, &c., against the said Lord Henry, that
not only he caused to be put to death the lords spiritual and other
religious men, but also divers of the lords temporal and nobility of
the realm, .... Amongst all other of the nobility, these first he put to
death; the earl of Salisbury, the earl of Huntingdon, the earl of
Gloucester, the Lord Roger Clarendon, the king's brother [i.e., half-
brother of King Richard II], with divers other knights and esquires,
....").
This same manifesto is also mentioned in J. Raine, ed., The historians
of the church of York and its archbishops, 2 Rolls Series 71): 300.
Sir Roger Clarendon's mother was a certain Edith de Willesford. She
was living 8 May 1385 [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1381-1385
(1897): 562. Her history is obscure.
The new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states that Sir Roger
Clarendon "married Margaret Roches, a minor in the king's wardship and
heir to the barony of Rock in Pembroke." This information is
misleading. Margaret was actually the daughter and heiress of Mariot,
who in turn was the daughter and heiress of William de la Roche. Thus
it was Margaret's mother who was a Roche, not Margaret herself.
Margaret's father's name remains unknown to me.
Lastly, the journalist Thomas Costain in his best-selling work, The
Three Edwards (1958), pg. 356, states that Edward the Black Prince
also had an illegitimate daughter. He says: "Historians have ignored
her existence." He states she married "one" Waleran de Luxembourg,
Count of Ligny and St. Pol, and that little is known of her. Actually
this woman was Edward the Black Prince's well documented step-
daughter, Maud de Holand. She married (1st) by marriage settlement
dated 3 Oct. 1362 (dispensation dated 29 August 1363, they being
related in the 3rd and 4th degree of kindred) (as his 2nd wife) Hugh
de Courtenay, of Sutton Courtenay, Berkshire, son and heir of Hugh de
Courtenay, Knt., by Elizabeth, daughter of John de Vere, Earl of
Oxford. They had no issue. Following his death in 1374, she married
(2nd) at Windsor, Berkshire in Easter week, 1380 (as his 1st wife)
Waleran (or Valeran) III de Luxembourg, Count of Saint-Pol and Ligny,
seigneur of Fiennes, châtelain of Lille, Constable of France. Maud
had no issue by either marriage. She was buried at Westminster Abbey
23 April 1392. For further details of Maud de Holand's life, see
Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Illegitimate child of Edward of Woodstock, by a mistress, Edith de
Willesford. She was living 8 May 1385. C.P.R. 1381-1385 (1897): 562.
i. ROGER CLARENDON (or CLARYNDON), Knt., in right of his wife, of
Roch and Pull, Pembrokeshire, Wales, King's knight, Knight of the
Chamber. He married MARGARET _____, daughter and heiress of Mariot,
daughter and heiress of William de la Roche. She was heiress of the
barony of Roch in Pembrokeshire, Wales. They had no issue. In 1372
King Edward III granted him an annuity of £100 at the Exchequer. In
1376 he joined the Trinity Guild of Coventry, Warwickshire. The same
year he was a legatee in the will of his father, Edward the Black
Prince, who bequeathed him a silk bed. In 1377 he and John Charnels
owed 500 marks to William Brampton, citizen and stockfishmonger of
London. The same year he, John Charnold, and John Laffield owed £400
to Peter de Veel, Knt. In 1379 he failed to appear in court in London
regarding a debt of £200 he owed to Peter de Veel, Knt. His wife,
Margaret, died before 20 March 1386. In 1390 King Richard II
cancelled his annuity of £100, and granted him the same sum from the
subsidy of the ulnage of cloth in the county of Bristol. In 1396
Thomas Neville, Knt., lord of Hallamshire, and Thomas Musgrove, Knt.,
of Westmorland failed to appear in court in Middlesex to answer him
touching a debt of £30 each. In 1398 he killed Sir William Drayton in
a duel. He was subsequently indicted for murder, but absconded,
remaining a fugitive for several years. In 1399 John Charnell, Esq.
petitioned the king, requesting that he be pardoned of all of his
forfeitures to the value of 10 marks, he being outlawed at the king's
suit for the debt of Roger Clarendon; also that he be pardoned £6 of
the issues and amercements made before the justices in Warwickshire in
1393-1394. In 1402 Roger and various Franciscan friars engaged in a
conspiracy against King Henry IV by spreading rumors that King Richard
II was still alive. SIR ROGER CLARENDON was arrested 19 May 1402 by
the Mayor of London. He failed to justify himself, was attainted, and
subsequently executed at Tyburn with his esquire and a servant. His
execution was made the subject of one of the articles exhibited by
Archbishop Scrope against King Henry IV in 1405.
[Note: Sir Roger de Clarendon is alleged to be the ancestor of Sir
Edward Bowyer-Smyth, of Essex, born 1785 [see Hoare Modern Wiltshire
(): 171; Dod The Peerage, Baronetage, and Knightage of Great Britain &
Ireland: Eighth Year (repr. 2001): 416; but Gentleman's Mag.n.s. 34
(1850): 435 considers the Smith family's claimed descent from Sir
Roger Clarendon to be "apocryphal"].
References:
Nichols, Coll. of All the Wills (1780): 66-82. Fox, Book of Martyrs
(1813): 716 (list of articles set upon church doors against King Henry
the Fourth in 1405: "... Seventhly, We depose, &c., against the said
Lord Henry, that not only he caused to be put to death the lords
spiritual and other religious men, but also divers of the lords
temporal and nobility of the realm, .... Amongst all other of the
nobility, these first he put to death; the earl of Salisbury, the earl
of Huntingdon, the earl of Gloucester, the Lord Roger Clarendon, the
king's brother, with divers other knights and esquires, ..."). Banks,
The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 4 (1837): 335. Montagu, A
Guide to the Study of Heraldry (1840): 44 (arms of Roger de Clarendon:
Or, on a bend sable, three ostrich feathers, the pen fixed in a
scroll, argent). Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the
Garter (1841): 17, footnote 1. Walsingham, Historia Anglicana 2
(Rolls Ser. 28) (1864): 249 (sub A.D. 1402: "Suspensus est etiam eo
tempore miles Rogerus de Clarindon, filius, ut dicebatur, nothus
quondam nobilis Principis Edwardi, filii Regis Edwardi, Tertii a
Conquæstu; et, cum eo, suus armiger et valectus; eo quod accusati de
proditione, defecerunt in purgatione."). Banks Baronia Anglica
Concentrata (1844): 123 (Roche pedigree). Gairdner, The Houses of
Lancaster & York (1875): 73. Notes & Queries, 7th ser. 11 (1891): 433-
434. C.P.R. 1377-1381 (1895): 260-261, 389. C.P.R. 1381-1385 (1897):
562. C.P.R. 1385-1389 (1900): 459. C.P.R. 1388-1392 (1902): 305,
312, 339. C.P.R. 1399-1401 (1903): 331. C.P.R. 1405-1408 (1907): 425-
426. D.N.B. 4 (1908): 398 (biog. of Sir Roger Clarendon). C.P.R.
1396-1399 (1909): 128-129. C.F.R. 10 (1929): 137. C.F.R. 11 (1929):
279. C.F.R. 12 (1931): 51, 118, 127. Harris, The Reg, of the Guild
of the Holy Trinity, St. Mary, St. John the Baptist and St. Katherine
of Coventry 1 (Dugdale Soc. 13) (1935): x, xxiii-xxiv, 59 (list of the
members of Trinity Guild: "Die mercurii proximo post festum
Annunciacionis beate Marie, Anno domini Millesimo CCCmo septuagesimo
sexto, Dominus Rogerus de Claryngdon, miles, filius excellentissimi
domini nostri, Princicipis Wall' "), 107. The Antiquaries Journal
(1937): 205. C.P.R. 1377-1399 (1976): 124. C. Given-Wilson and A.
Curteis The royal bastards of medieval England (1984): 143-147. Cal.
IPMs 17 (1988): 68-69. Bevan, Henry IV (1994): 93-94, 119. Leese
Blood Royal (1996): 140. Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete
Genealogy (1999): 94. PRO Document, SC 8/249/12415 (petition by John
Charnell, Esq. to the king dated 1399) (abstract of document available
online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Sir Roger Clarendon, bastard son of Edward the Black Prince
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
WJhonson
Re: Sir Roger Clarendon, bastard son of Edward the Black Pri
<<In a message dated 08/17/07 09:50:25 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Maud de Holand. She married (1st) by marriage settlement
dated 3 Oct. 1362 (dispensation dated 29 August 1363, they being
related in the 3rd and 4th degree of kindred) (as his 2nd wife) Hugh
de Courtenay, of Sutton Courtenay, Berkshire, son and heir of Hugh de
Courtenay, Knt., by Elizabeth, daughter of John de Vere, Earl of
Oxford. They had no issue. Following his death in 1374, she married
(2nd) at Windsor, Berkshire in Easter week, 1380 (as his 1st wife)
Waleran (or Valeran) III de Luxembourg, Count of Saint-Pol and Ligny,
seigneur of Fiennes, châtelain of Lille, Constable of France. Maud
had no issue by either marriage. She was buried at Westminster Abbey
23 April 1392.>>
-----------------------
Douglas can you confirm for us *how* you know that Maud had no issue by either marriage?
Leo is showing
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 3&tree=LEO
that she had a daughter Joan (Jean)
Thanks
Will Johnson
Maud de Holand. She married (1st) by marriage settlement
dated 3 Oct. 1362 (dispensation dated 29 August 1363, they being
related in the 3rd and 4th degree of kindred) (as his 2nd wife) Hugh
de Courtenay, of Sutton Courtenay, Berkshire, son and heir of Hugh de
Courtenay, Knt., by Elizabeth, daughter of John de Vere, Earl of
Oxford. They had no issue. Following his death in 1374, she married
(2nd) at Windsor, Berkshire in Easter week, 1380 (as his 1st wife)
Waleran (or Valeran) III de Luxembourg, Count of Saint-Pol and Ligny,
seigneur of Fiennes, châtelain of Lille, Constable of France. Maud
had no issue by either marriage. She was buried at Westminster Abbey
23 April 1392.>>
-----------------------
Douglas can you confirm for us *how* you know that Maud had no issue by either marriage?
Leo is showing
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 3&tree=LEO
that she had a daughter Joan (Jean)
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Sir Roger Clarendon, bastard son of Edward the Black Pri
Deat Newsgrouo ~
As a followup to my earlier post on Edward the Black Prince's bastard
son, Sir Roger Clarendon, I recently found a pedigree in the book,
Llyfr Baglan, based on research done in the periiod, 1600-1607, by
John Williams, which pedigree alleges that Sir Roger Clarendon left
issue. The text reads specifically as follows:
"Edward, the Black Prince, had issue reputed Sr Roger de Clarinton,
knight, had issue Gru[ffudd]', father to Ph[ilip]'e, father to Ievan,
father to g'll'm, father to Howell, father to Roger, father to Jenkin
who ma. Maude, da. to G'll'm Popkin of Trevelddey, esq. and had issue
Thomas ..." [Reference: Williams Llyfr Baglan (1910): 149 (Berthoellye
pedigree)].
This same family is found in the modern work by Peter Bartrum entitled
Welsh Genealogies. 300-1400 (1980) [Adam ap Ifor 1, 3]. However,
Bartrum gives an entirely different male line ancestry for this Welsh
family. Bartrum's charts make no reference either to Sir Roger
Clarendon or to Edward the Black Prince. As such, I believe we can
label the Llyfr Baglan claim regarding Sir Roger Clarendon's potential
issue as being false.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
As a followup to my earlier post on Edward the Black Prince's bastard
son, Sir Roger Clarendon, I recently found a pedigree in the book,
Llyfr Baglan, based on research done in the periiod, 1600-1607, by
John Williams, which pedigree alleges that Sir Roger Clarendon left
issue. The text reads specifically as follows:
"Edward, the Black Prince, had issue reputed Sr Roger de Clarinton,
knight, had issue Gru[ffudd]', father to Ph[ilip]'e, father to Ievan,
father to g'll'm, father to Howell, father to Roger, father to Jenkin
who ma. Maude, da. to G'll'm Popkin of Trevelddey, esq. and had issue
Thomas ..." [Reference: Williams Llyfr Baglan (1910): 149 (Berthoellye
pedigree)].
This same family is found in the modern work by Peter Bartrum entitled
Welsh Genealogies. 300-1400 (1980) [Adam ap Ifor 1, 3]. However,
Bartrum gives an entirely different male line ancestry for this Welsh
family. Bartrum's charts make no reference either to Sir Roger
Clarendon or to Edward the Black Prince. As such, I believe we can
label the Llyfr Baglan claim regarding Sir Roger Clarendon's potential
issue as being false.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Sir Roger Clarendon, bastard son of Edward the Black Pri
Deat Newsgrouo ~
As a followup to my earlier post on Edward the Black Prince's bastard
son, Sir Roger Clarendon, I recently found a pedigree in the book,
Llyfr Baglan, based on research done in the periiod, 1600-1607, by
John Williams, which pedigree alleges that Sir Roger Clarendon left
issue. The text reads specifically as follows:
"Edward, the Black Prince, had issue reputed Sr Roger de Clarinton,
knight, had issue Gru[ffudd]', father to Ph[ilip]'e, father to Ievan,
father to g'll'm, father to Howell, father to Roger, father to Jenkin
who ma. Maude, da. to G'll'm Popkin of Trevelddey, esq. and had issue
Thomas ..." [Reference: Williams Llyfr Baglan (1910): 149 (Berthoellye
pedigree)].
This same family is found in the modern work by Peter Bartrum entitled
Welsh Genealogies. 300-1400 (1980) [Adam ap Ifor 1, 3]. However,
Bartrum gives an entirely different male line ancestry for this Welsh
family. Bartrum's charts make no reference either to Sir Roger
Clarendon or to Edward the Black Prince. As such, I believe we can
label the Llyfr Baglan claim regarding Sir Roger Clarendon's potential
issue as being false.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
As a followup to my earlier post on Edward the Black Prince's bastard
son, Sir Roger Clarendon, I recently found a pedigree in the book,
Llyfr Baglan, based on research done in the periiod, 1600-1607, by
John Williams, which pedigree alleges that Sir Roger Clarendon left
issue. The text reads specifically as follows:
"Edward, the Black Prince, had issue reputed Sr Roger de Clarinton,
knight, had issue Gru[ffudd]', father to Ph[ilip]'e, father to Ievan,
father to g'll'm, father to Howell, father to Roger, father to Jenkin
who ma. Maude, da. to G'll'm Popkin of Trevelddey, esq. and had issue
Thomas ..." [Reference: Williams Llyfr Baglan (1910): 149 (Berthoellye
pedigree)].
This same family is found in the modern work by Peter Bartrum entitled
Welsh Genealogies. 300-1400 (1980) [Adam ap Ifor 1, 3]. However,
Bartrum gives an entirely different male line ancestry for this Welsh
family. Bartrum's charts make no reference either to Sir Roger
Clarendon or to Edward the Black Prince. As such, I believe we can
label the Llyfr Baglan claim regarding Sir Roger Clarendon's potential
issue as being false.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah