Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

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Gjest

Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2007 22:28:16

Paget's 1977 work on the ancestry of the present Royal Family provides
some details of the Leek/Leake family of Nottinghamshire.

However, one of the links appears to be incorrect.

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

a. Thomas Leek of Hasland, had issue:

b. Elizabeth Leek, married John Hardwick; issue:

c. Elizabeth Hardwick - 'Bess of Hardwick', married (1) Robert Barlow,
(2) Sir William Cavendish, (3) Sir Willam St Loe, (4) Gilbert, 6th
Earl of Shrewsbury.

According to Paget, Thomas Leek was the son of William Leek, who was
son of John Leek and Alice Grey. He continues by stating that John
was son of an earlier Sir John Leek, of Cotham, Notts. This is
presumably based on the Leek details contained in the Hercy pedigree
in the Nottinghamshire Visitations. Unfortunately, this pedigree is
unreliable in a number of respects (eg it calls Sir John Leek's father
"Sir John" when he is known to have been named Simon; it states his
granddaughter Ann was a nun, whereas extant legal papers show she
married Richard Willoughby).

However, Roskell et al in 'History of Parliament 1386-1421', vol III
sub Leek, states that John (the grandfather of Thomas Leek) was the
son and heir of Ralph Leek, who was living in 1399. According to HoP,
John was "probably a nephew of Sir John Leek", and elsewhere it calls
him nephew of Sir John's younger brother, William Leek.

That there was a close family relationship is borne out by the legal
records linking the various Leeks in joint feoffeeships, sureties,
wardships etc. A further clue is offered by the heraldic evidence
from Bess of Hardwick's own tomb in Derby Cathedral.

This shows her parents' impaled coat of arms, with Hardwick impaling
Leek (argent, on a saltire engrailed sable, nine annulets or) which is
charged with a crescent for difference. This is the cadency mark for
a second son. We know that Bess's grandfather, Thomas Leek, was
eldest son of William, eldest son of John, eldest son of Ralph, so it
seems that the inference is Ralph was a second son.

If HoP is right in their tentative placement of this branch of the
Leeks, Ralph would be the second son of Sir Simon Leek by his wife
Margaret de Vaux, and brother of Sir John Leek, William Leek MP, and
Margaret, successively wife of Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas
Rempston, KG.

MA-R

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Leek/Leake Ancestry Of Her Majesty The Queen

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 aug 2007 22:31:54

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

SO, this probably makes them ANCESTORS of PETER STEWART as well.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------------------

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1187299696.730744.280150@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

Paget's 1977 work on the ancestry of the present Royal Family provides
some details of the Leek/Leake family of Nottinghamshire.

However, one of the links appears to be incorrect.

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

a. Thomas Leek of Hasland, had issue:

b. Elizabeth Leek, married John Hardwick; issue:

c. Elizabeth Hardwick - 'Bess of Hardwick', married (1) Robert Barlow,
(2) Sir William Cavendish, (3) Sir Willam St Loe, (4) Gilbert, 6th
Earl of Shrewsbury.

According to Paget, Thomas Leek was the son of William Leek, who was
son of John Leek and Alice Grey. He continues by stating that John
was son of an earlier Sir John Leek, of Cotham, Notts. This is
presumably based on the Leek details contained in the Hercy pedigree
in the Nottinghamshire Visitations. Unfortunately, this pedigree is
unreliable in a number of respects (eg it calls Sir John Leek's father
"Sir John" when he is known to have been named Simon; it states his
granddaughter Ann was a nun, whereas extant legal papers show she
married Richard Willoughby).

However, Roskell et al in 'History of Parliament 1386-1421', vol III
sub Leek, states that John (the grandfather of Thomas Leek) was the
son and heir of Ralph Leek, who was living in 1399. According to HoP,
John was "probably a nephew of Sir John Leek", and elsewhere it calls
him nephew of Sir John's younger brother, William Leek.

That there was a close family relationship is borne out by the legal
records linking the various Leeks in joint feoffeeships, sureties,
wardships etc. A further clue is offered by the heraldic evidence
from Bess of Hardwick's own tomb in Derby Cathedral.

This shows her parents' impaled coat of arms, with Hardwick impaling
Leek (argent, on a saltire engrailed sable, nine annulets or) which is
charged with a crescent for difference. This is the cadency mark for
a second son. We know that Bess's grandfather, Thomas Leek, was
eldest son of William, eldest son of John, eldest son of Ralph, so it
seems that the inference is Ralph was a second son.

If HoP is right in their tentative placement of this branch of the
Leeks, Ralph would be the second son of Sir Simon Leek by his wife
Margaret de Vaux, and brother of Sir John Leek, William Leek MP, and
Margaret, successively wife of Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas
Rempston, KG.

MA-R

John Higgins

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av John Higgins » 18 aug 2007 19:43:29

In addition to the snippet of the Leek family in the Hercy pedigree in the
visitation of Nottinghamshire, there are two slightly more extensive
pedigrees of the family in "The Genealogist" [new series], 7:228-230,
apparently from a visitation of Derbyshire in 1569 and/or 1611. Although
these pedigrees have some of the same errors that Michael mentioned in the
Notts visitation pedigree, they do agree as to the placement of John Leek
who mar. Alice Grey as the brother of Sir Simon Leek of Cotham who mar. Joan
Talbot. No mention of a Ralph Leek. If so, John would indeed be a nephew
of William Leek the MP as Roskell indicates, but a son rather than a nephew
of Sir John the MP (who mar. Isabel Towers).

[For the sake of full disclosure, I must mention that the Derbyshire
pedigree has this interesting note added, apparently from the original
visitation: "To this descent Sir Francis Leeke is not willing to put his
hand, because he doubteth whether it be true or no although it were taken
from his father's relation the last Visitation." !!]

I can't readily check the sources that Roskell gives for his suggested
parentage of the younger John, but I wonder if perhaps he simply confused a
reference to John son of Ralph and inferred that this was the John he was
looking for. I note that Thoroton's "Antiquities of Nottinghamshire", vol.
1, has pedigree information on the family (although perhaps just the Notts
branch), but I don't have access to it at present.

There is also a pedigree (unsourced) of the family in Simon Payling,
"Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottinghamshire". It starts with Sir Simon (m. Margaret Vaux) and his two
sons the MPs Sir John (m. Isabel Towers) and William (m. Avice Stockton).
For Sir John, it gives as children Simon (m. Joan Talbot), Margaret (m.
Foljambe and Rempston), and John, (m. Alice Grey). It continues John's line
one generation to William who m. Katherine Chaworth.

As to the cadency mark for a second son in the arms of the father of Bess of
Hardwick, the Derbyshire visitation pedigree says explicitly that Thomas
Leek of Hasland, father of Elizabeth who mar. John Hardwick, was the second
son, not the first. If this is accurate, it would explain the cadency mark
without having to go back a few more generations. Also, the pedigree in
Payling suggests by placement (although not explicitly stating it) that John
Leek who mar. Alice Grey was also a second son - another explanation for the
cadency mark which doesn't require that his possible father Ralph (per
Roskell) be a second son.

It's an interesting problem....

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


Paget's 1977 work on the ancestry of the present Royal Family provides
some details of the Leek/Leake family of Nottinghamshire.

However, one of the links appears to be incorrect.

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

a. Thomas Leek of Hasland, had issue:

b. Elizabeth Leek, married John Hardwick; issue:

c. Elizabeth Hardwick - 'Bess of Hardwick', married (1) Robert Barlow,
(2) Sir William Cavendish, (3) Sir Willam St Loe, (4) Gilbert, 6th
Earl of Shrewsbury.

According to Paget, Thomas Leek was the son of William Leek, who was
son of John Leek and Alice Grey. He continues by stating that John
was son of an earlier Sir John Leek, of Cotham, Notts. This is
presumably based on the Leek details contained in the Hercy pedigree
in the Nottinghamshire Visitations. Unfortunately, this pedigree is
unreliable in a number of respects (eg it calls Sir John Leek's father
"Sir John" when he is known to have been named Simon; it states his
granddaughter Ann was a nun, whereas extant legal papers show she
married Richard Willoughby).

However, Roskell et al in 'History of Parliament 1386-1421', vol III
sub Leek, states that John (the grandfather of Thomas Leek) was the
son and heir of Ralph Leek, who was living in 1399. According to HoP,
John was "probably a nephew of Sir John Leek", and elsewhere it calls
him nephew of Sir John's younger brother, William Leek.

That there was a close family relationship is borne out by the legal
records linking the various Leeks in joint feoffeeships, sureties,
wardships etc. A further clue is offered by the heraldic evidence
from Bess of Hardwick's own tomb in Derby Cathedral.

This shows her parents' impaled coat of arms, with Hardwick impaling
Leek (argent, on a saltire engrailed sable, nine annulets or) which is
charged with a crescent for difference. This is the cadency mark for
a second son. We know that Bess's grandfather, Thomas Leek, was
eldest son of William, eldest son of John, eldest son of Ralph, so it
seems that the inference is Ralph was a second son.

If HoP is right in their tentative placement of this branch of the
Leeks, Ralph would be the second son of Sir Simon Leek by his wife
Margaret de Vaux, and brother of Sir John Leek, William Leek MP, and
Margaret, successively wife of Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas
Rempston, KG.

MA-R


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Kelly Leighton

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Kelly Leighton » 18 aug 2007 21:38:47

Listers,

I know that the first volume of Thoroton's work was available on Googlebooks
on the 14th of July 2007, because I downloaded it and am looking at it now.
35.5 MB.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gz4uAA ... simon+leek

Take care,

Kelly in RI

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Gen-Med" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


In addition to the snippet of the Leek family in the Hercy pedigree in the
visitation of Nottinghamshire, there are two slightly more extensive
pedigrees of the family in "The Genealogist" [new series], 7:228-230,
apparently from a visitation of Derbyshire in 1569 and/or 1611. Although
these pedigrees have some of the same errors that Michael mentioned in the
Notts visitation pedigree, they do agree as to the placement of John Leek
who mar. Alice Grey as the brother of Sir Simon Leek of Cotham who mar.
Joan
Talbot. No mention of a Ralph Leek. If so, John would indeed be a nephew
of William Leek the MP as Roskell indicates, but a son rather than a
nephew
of Sir John the MP (who mar. Isabel Towers).

[For the sake of full disclosure, I must mention that the Derbyshire
pedigree has this interesting note added, apparently from the original
visitation: "To this descent Sir Francis Leeke is not willing to put his
hand, because he doubteth whether it be true or no although it were taken
from his father's relation the last Visitation." !!]

I can't readily check the sources that Roskell gives for his suggested
parentage of the younger John, but I wonder if perhaps he simply confused
a
reference to John son of Ralph and inferred that this was the John he was
looking for. I note that Thoroton's "Antiquities of Nottinghamshire",
vol.
1, has pedigree information on the family (although perhaps just the Notts
branch), but I don't have access to it at present.

There is also a pedigree (unsourced) of the family in Simon Payling,
"Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottinghamshire". It starts with Sir Simon (m. Margaret Vaux) and his two
sons the MPs Sir John (m. Isabel Towers) and William (m. Avice Stockton).
For Sir John, it gives as children Simon (m. Joan Talbot), Margaret (m.
Foljambe and Rempston), and John, (m. Alice Grey). It continues John's
line
one generation to William who m. Katherine Chaworth.

As to the cadency mark for a second son in the arms of the father of Bess
of
Hardwick, the Derbyshire visitation pedigree says explicitly that Thomas
Leek of Hasland, father of Elizabeth who mar. John Hardwick, was the
second
son, not the first. If this is accurate, it would explain the cadency
mark
without having to go back a few more generations. Also, the pedigree in
Payling suggests by placement (although not explicitly stating it) that
John
Leek who mar. Alice Grey was also a second son - another explanation for
the
cadency mark which doesn't require that his possible father Ralph (per
Roskell) be a second son.

It's an interesting problem....

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


Paget's 1977 work on the ancestry of the present Royal Family provides
some details of the Leek/Leake family of Nottinghamshire.

However, one of the links appears to be incorrect.

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

a. Thomas Leek of Hasland, had issue:

b. Elizabeth Leek, married John Hardwick; issue:

c. Elizabeth Hardwick - 'Bess of Hardwick', married (1) Robert Barlow,
(2) Sir William Cavendish, (3) Sir Willam St Loe, (4) Gilbert, 6th
Earl of Shrewsbury.

According to Paget, Thomas Leek was the son of William Leek, who was
son of John Leek and Alice Grey. He continues by stating that John
was son of an earlier Sir John Leek, of Cotham, Notts. This is
presumably based on the Leek details contained in the Hercy pedigree
in the Nottinghamshire Visitations. Unfortunately, this pedigree is
unreliable in a number of respects (eg it calls Sir John Leek's father
"Sir John" when he is known to have been named Simon; it states his
granddaughter Ann was a nun, whereas extant legal papers show she
married Richard Willoughby).

However, Roskell et al in 'History of Parliament 1386-1421', vol III
sub Leek, states that John (the grandfather of Thomas Leek) was the
son and heir of Ralph Leek, who was living in 1399. According to HoP,
John was "probably a nephew of Sir John Leek", and elsewhere it calls
him nephew of Sir John's younger brother, William Leek.

That there was a close family relationship is borne out by the legal
records linking the various Leeks in joint feoffeeships, sureties,
wardships etc. A further clue is offered by the heraldic evidence
from Bess of Hardwick's own tomb in Derby Cathedral.

This shows her parents' impaled coat of arms, with Hardwick impaling
Leek (argent, on a saltire engrailed sable, nine annulets or) which is
charged with a crescent for difference. This is the cadency mark for
a second son. We know that Bess's grandfather, Thomas Leek, was
eldest son of William, eldest son of John, eldest son of Ralph, so it
seems that the inference is Ralph was a second son.

If HoP is right in their tentative placement of this branch of the
Leeks, Ralph would be the second son of Sir Simon Leek by his wife
Margaret de Vaux, and brother of Sir John Leek, William Leek MP, and
Margaret, successively wife of Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas
Rempston, KG.

MA-R


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message



John Higgins

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av John Higgins » 19 aug 2007 01:29:02

Thanks for pointing out the availability of at least vol. 1 of Thoroton on
Google Books. I had checked there a few months ago and couldn't locate it -
it's nice to know it's been added.

The Leek pedigree on p. 49 shows John who m. Alice Grey as brother of Simon
who m. Joan Talbot and both as sons of John who m. Isabel Towers. However,
in the enxt earlier generation it seems to err in the same way as Michael
indicated the visitation pedigrees do, by assigning a John rather than Simon
as the father of the elder John.

BTW [to Michael, maybe?], what is the source aside from HoP that assigns
Simon as the father of the elder John Leek?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


Listers,

I know that the first volume of Thoroton's work was available on
Googlebooks
on the 14th of July 2007, because I downloaded it and am looking at it
now.
35.5 MB.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gz4uAA ... simon+leek

Take care,

Kelly in RI

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: "Gen-Med" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


In addition to the snippet of the Leek family in the Hercy pedigree in
the
visitation of Nottinghamshire, there are two slightly more extensive
pedigrees of the family in "The Genealogist" [new series], 7:228-230,
apparently from a visitation of Derbyshire in 1569 and/or 1611.
Although
these pedigrees have some of the same errors that Michael mentioned in
the
Notts visitation pedigree, they do agree as to the placement of John
Leek
who mar. Alice Grey as the brother of Sir Simon Leek of Cotham who mar.
Joan
Talbot. No mention of a Ralph Leek. If so, John would indeed be a
nephew
of William Leek the MP as Roskell indicates, but a son rather than a
nephew
of Sir John the MP (who mar. Isabel Towers).

[For the sake of full disclosure, I must mention that the Derbyshire
pedigree has this interesting note added, apparently from the original
visitation: "To this descent Sir Francis Leeke is not willing to put
his
hand, because he doubteth whether it be true or no although it were
taken
from his father's relation the last Visitation." !!]

I can't readily check the sources that Roskell gives for his suggested
parentage of the younger John, but I wonder if perhaps he simply
confused
a
reference to John son of Ralph and inferred that this was the John he
was
looking for. I note that Thoroton's "Antiquities of Nottinghamshire",
vol.
1, has pedigree information on the family (although perhaps just the
Notts
branch), but I don't have access to it at present.

There is also a pedigree (unsourced) of the family in Simon Payling,
"Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottinghamshire". It starts with Sir Simon (m. Margaret Vaux) and his
two
sons the MPs Sir John (m. Isabel Towers) and William (m. Avice
Stockton).
For Sir John, it gives as children Simon (m. Joan Talbot), Margaret (m.
Foljambe and Rempston), and John, (m. Alice Grey). It continues John's
line
one generation to William who m. Katherine Chaworth.

As to the cadency mark for a second son in the arms of the father of
Bess
of
Hardwick, the Derbyshire visitation pedigree says explicitly that Thomas
Leek of Hasland, father of Elizabeth who mar. John Hardwick, was the
second
son, not the first. If this is accurate, it would explain the cadency
mark
without having to go back a few more generations. Also, the pedigree in
Payling suggests by placement (although not explicitly stating it) that
John
Leek who mar. Alice Grey was also a second son - another explanation for
the
cadency mark which doesn't require that his possible father Ralph (per
Roskell) be a second son.

It's an interesting problem....

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


Paget's 1977 work on the ancestry of the present Royal Family provides
some details of the Leek/Leake family of Nottinghamshire.

However, one of the links appears to be incorrect.

The Leeks were ancestral to the Cavendish family, Dukes of Devonshire,
thus:

a. Thomas Leek of Hasland, had issue:

b. Elizabeth Leek, married John Hardwick; issue:

c. Elizabeth Hardwick - 'Bess of Hardwick', married (1) Robert Barlow,
(2) Sir William Cavendish, (3) Sir Willam St Loe, (4) Gilbert, 6th
Earl of Shrewsbury.

According to Paget, Thomas Leek was the son of William Leek, who was
son of John Leek and Alice Grey. He continues by stating that John
was son of an earlier Sir John Leek, of Cotham, Notts. This is
presumably based on the Leek details contained in the Hercy pedigree
in the Nottinghamshire Visitations. Unfortunately, this pedigree is
unreliable in a number of respects (eg it calls Sir John Leek's father
"Sir John" when he is known to have been named Simon; it states his
granddaughter Ann was a nun, whereas extant legal papers show she
married Richard Willoughby).

However, Roskell et al in 'History of Parliament 1386-1421', vol III
sub Leek, states that John (the grandfather of Thomas Leek) was the
son and heir of Ralph Leek, who was living in 1399. According to HoP,
John was "probably a nephew of Sir John Leek", and elsewhere it calls
him nephew of Sir John's younger brother, William Leek.

That there was a close family relationship is borne out by the legal
records linking the various Leeks in joint feoffeeships, sureties,
wardships etc. A further clue is offered by the heraldic evidence
from Bess of Hardwick's own tomb in Derby Cathedral.

This shows her parents' impaled coat of arms, with Hardwick impaling
Leek (argent, on a saltire engrailed sable, nine annulets or) which is
charged with a crescent for difference. This is the cadency mark for
a second son. We know that Bess's grandfather, Thomas Leek, was
eldest son of William, eldest son of John, eldest son of Ralph, so it
seems that the inference is Ralph was a second son.

If HoP is right in their tentative placement of this branch of the
Leeks, Ralph would be the second son of Sir Simon Leek by his wife
Margaret de Vaux, and brother of Sir John Leek, William Leek MP, and
Margaret, successively wife of Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas
Rempston, KG.

MA-R


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Matthew Hovius

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 19 aug 2007 08:19:42

I've studied this branch of the Leek family as part of an article I'm
preparing, and can cite at least one document extracted in A2A naming
Simon rather than another John as the origin of the Cotham line:

Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck (1st Deposit): Deeds and
Estate Papers
Reference: 157 DD/P/8/1
Creation dates: 31 Jan. 1412/13
Language: lan


Scope and Content
Gift: Sir John of Leekes of Cotom to John Tullyva, chaplain:-- parcel
of land at the N. end of Cotom with a dovehouse and other buildings;
and 2 bovates land and meadow in Cotom (of which John, son of Geoffrey
held one and Robert of Normanton the other, from Sir Simon of Leekes,
father of Sir John) except ½ac. land against the church between the
lands of Roger Nychol and John Cundy. Also 5½ marks annual rent from
the manor of Cotom --: for life of J.T. who is to celebrate divine
service (vespers, matins and mass) throughout the year in the chapel
of Blessed Mary in Cotom church, praying for the souls of Sir Siion,
Sir John, their ancestors and all faithful departed. Witn. Sir Hugh
Husee, William of Compton, William of Sybthorp, Hugh of Wymbish, John
of Eyleston. Given at Cotom. Tues. before Purification B.V.M. 14 Hen.
IV.

Note that I've corrected the spelling: the original extract in A2A
actually reads 'Sir Simon of Deekes, further of Sir John'!



On Aug 19, 2:29 am, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the availability of at least vol. 1 of Thoroton on
Google Books. I had checked there a few months ago and couldn't locate it -
it's nice to know it's been added.

The Leek pedigree on p. 49 shows John who m. Alice Grey as brother of Simon
who m. Joan Talbot and both as sons of John who m. Isabel Towers. However,
in the enxt earlier generation it seems to err in the same way as Michael
indicated the visitation pedigrees do, by assigning a John rather than Simon
as the father of the elder John.

BTW [to Michael, maybe?], what is the source aside from HoP that assigns
Simon as the father of the elder John Leek?

Gjest

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 08:26:52

On 19 Aug., 01:29, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the availability of at least vol. 1 of Thoroton on
Google Books. I had checked there a few months ago and couldn't locate it -
it's nice to know it's been added.

The Leek pedigree on p. 49 shows John who m. Alice Grey as brother of Simon
who m. Joan Talbot and both as sons of John who m. Isabel Towers. However,
in the enxt earlier generation it seems to err in the same way as Michael
indicated the visitation pedigrees do, by assigning a John rather than Simon
as the father of the elder John.

BTW [to Michael, maybe?], what is the source aside from HoP that assigns
Simon as the father of the elder John Leek?

First of all - to John and Kelly, many thanks for advancing this so
considerably.

Secondly, I have been contact off-list by Hugh Savage, who has very
generously shared his research in this matter, providing further
useful details of Thomas Leek's ascent.

(1) I do not know of any source other than HoP which shows the elder
Simon Leek was father of the elder John Leek. HoP as usual
conglomerate their references, which is extremely unhelpful. I
suspect the primary source for this may be found in the grant of joint
custody of the estate of the younger Godfrey Foljambe in "autumn 1382"
- perhaps one of the CFR references in the jumble at footnote 3on p
585 of vol III.

(2) Of Thomas's position in the family, Hugh writes:

"Was there not a John Leeke, Esq. (d.1504, buried in Sutton Church),
of Sutton-in-the-Dale, Derbs., who was the oldest son of William Leeke
(d.1458), and this John Leeke, Esq. (d.1504) married Elizabeth Savage,
daughter of Sir John Savage, K.B. (d1495), of Clifton in Cheshire ?

In 1459, a marriage settlement was arranged for Elizabeth, the
daughter of John IV Savage, Esq. (d.1495),
and John Leeke, the son aged 7, of William Leeke of Sutton in the
Dale, Derbyshire :

On 13th January, 1458-59, GRANT by Alice who was wife of John Leeke of
Lanforth, esq., to John IV Savage, Esq., the younger, of the marriage
of John Leek, son and heir of William Leek, aged 7, to be married at
such time as the said John shall ordain, to Elizabeth, his daughter;
and the said Alice agrees to grant to the said John Savage, Richard
Carlele, Arnold Savage and Thomas Oldfeld, as estate to the annual
value of x marks in the town of Sondeacre, to hold for the life of the
said Elizabeth; and the said Agnes agrees that all the manors, lands
etc: which she has been seised of in Lanforth, Hickling, Harston,
Sondeacre, Kirk Hallum, Sutton in le Dale, Dalderby and Gunthorpe,
except the lands and tenements purchased by the said John Leeke and
Alice in Lanforth Sutton, shall come, after her death, to the said
John Leek, son of William, in fee simple, or to the feoffees to his
use, and that all the lands and tenements which Thomas Leeke holds for
life in Crownest and Regiall in the parish of Wichenford and of St.
John of Bedwardine, shall after his decease come to the said John or
the feoffees to his use; and if the said feoffees shall be disturbed
in their possession, the said Alice, her executors or administrators
will pay them £40. Given, 13th January, 37 Hen. VI (A2A : DCH/E/
291).

[Note : John IV Savage, Esq. (d.1495), the younger was not knighted
until 1465, and his father John III Savage, Esq., died in 1463.]

Could it not have been the Thomas Leeke of Hasland who used the
cresent for second son cadency?"

As noted by John above, I erred in assuming that Thomas of Hasland was
the minor son and heir of William Leek who is mentioned (unnamed) in
HoP, vol III, p 583.

(3) I agree it is difficult to ascertain why HoP says the younger John
was son of Ralph, rather than son of Sir John. The only information
given about Ralph is that Sir John was surety for him in October 1399
in relation to the farm of the manor of Mansfield.

I will post separately about the chronology of the family.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 08:42:35

On 18 Aug., 19:43, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
In addition to the snippet of the Leek family in the Hercy pedigree in the
visitation of Nottinghamshire, there are two slightly more extensive
pedigrees of the family in "The Genealogist" [new series], 7:228-230,
apparently from a visitation of Derbyshire in 1569 and/or 1611. Although
these pedigrees have some of the same errors that Michael mentioned in the
Notts visitation pedigree, they do agree as to the placement of John Leek
who mar. Alice Grey as the brother of Sir Simon Leek of Cotham who mar. Joan
Talbot. No mention of a Ralph Leek. If so, John would indeed be a nephew
of William Leek the MP as Roskell indicates, but a son rather than a nephew
of Sir John the MP (who mar. Isabel Towers).

[For the sake of full disclosure, I must mention that the Derbyshire
pedigree has this interesting note added, apparently from the original
visitation: "To this descent Sir Francis Leeke is not willing to put his
hand, because he doubteth whether it be true or no although it were taken
from his father's relation the last Visitation." !!]

I can't readily check the sources that Roskell gives for his suggested
parentage of the younger John, but I wonder if perhaps he simply confused a
reference to John son of Ralph and inferred that this was the John he was
looking for. I note that Thoroton's "Antiquities of Nottinghamshire", vol.
1, has pedigree information on the family (although perhaps just the Notts
branch), but I don't have access to it at present.

There is also a pedigree (unsourced) of the family in Simon Payling,
"Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottinghamshire". It starts with Sir Simon (m. Margaret Vaux) and his two
sons the MPs Sir John (m. Isabel Towers) and William (m. Avice Stockton).
For Sir John, it gives as children Simon (m. Joan Talbot), Margaret (m.
Foljambe and Rempston), and John, (m. Alice Grey). It continues John's line
one generation to William who m. Katherine Chaworth.

This too raises an interesting problem, in that it names Margaret, the
wife of Godfrey Foljambe and then of Sir Thomas Rempston, KG, as the
daughter of Sir John Leek, rather than his sister, as per HoP.

I was looking at the chronology of the Leeks during the week, and was
struck by how much younger Margaret must have been than her brothers.
This makes me wonder whether Payling is correct.

Sir Simon Leek (I here assume that HoP and Payling are correct in
assigning him as the progenitor) was married and possibly had children
before 1351. Of his children:

(a) Sir John was active by 1376, and his son Simon was of age by
1390. It therefore seems likely he was born by the early 1350s at the
latest.

(b) William was married by 1385, and active by 1388 (collector of a
tax).

Furthermore, John, grandson of Sir Simon, was active by 1400 (farmer
of the estates of William Hamsterley).

However, Margaret Leek married Godfrey Foljambe (born circa 1367)
after 1382; her first child was born in 1387, and she survived until
1454.

Interestingly, the Visitation of Cambridgeshire (sub Cheney), which is
relatively reliable, states that the elder Sir Thomas Rempton married
"Margarett d. of John Leek".

It was thus seem likely that HoP has placed Margaret a generation to
high in the Leek pedigree.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 09:36:14

On 19 Aug., 08:19, Matthew Hovius <dominus_mattha...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
I've studied this branch of the Leek family as part of an article I'm
preparing, and can cite at least one document extracted in A2A naming
Simon rather than another John as the origin of the Cotham line:

Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck (1st Deposit): Deeds and
Estate Papers
Reference: 157 DD/P/8/1
Creation dates: 31 Jan. 1412/13
Language: lan

Scope and Content
Gift: Sir John of Leekes of Cotom to John Tullyva, chaplain:-- parcel
of land at the N. end of Cotom with a dovehouse and other buildings;
and 2 bovates land and meadow in Cotom (of which John, son of Geoffrey
held one and Robert of Normanton the other, from Sir Simon of Leekes,
father of Sir John) except ½ac. land against the church between the
lands of Roger Nychol and John Cundy. Also 5½ marks annual rent from
the manor of Cotom --: for life of J.T. who is to celebrate divine
service (vespers, matins and mass) throughout the year in the chapel
of Blessed Mary in Cotom church, praying for the souls of Sir Siion,
Sir John, their ancestors and all faithful departed. Witn. Sir Hugh
Husee, William of Compton, William of Sybthorp, Hugh of Wymbish, John
of Eyleston. Given at Cotom. Tues. before Purification B.V.M. 14 Hen.
IV.

Matthew

Brilliant find - well done!

Cheers, Michael

jonathan kirton

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 19 aug 2007 11:54:29

I was very interested to see these postings, and believe I can show a
Radulphus (Ralph) de Leek.
From Thoroton's (pages 244-252) there is mention of the William de
Leek who married Avicia de Stockton, dau. of John de Stockton and his
wife (given name still not known) de Kyrton, who was the eldest
daughter of Thomas de Kirketon of Kirketon Hall, Screveton, Notts.,
and the eldest sister and co-heir of her brother Walter de Kirketon /
Kyrton of Screveton, Notts., and of Biddenham, Beds. who had died
s.p.. The younger sister and co-heir was Grace de Kyrton, who married
Thomas Boteler of Biddenham, and inherited from her brother some
lands in Biddenham which her brother had originally purchased from
William Boteler, the father of the above mentioned Thomas. Avicia
de Stockton thus brought Kirketon / Kirton Hall to her marriage to
William de Leek, their only son being Radulphus de Leek of Kirketon
Hall, Screveton, who married Agnes Babington, eldest daughter of Sir
William Babington, Chief Justice. Radulphus died s.p. after his only
son, John de Leek, predeceased his father, seised of the manor of
Kirketon, so that Kirketon Hall passed to his nephew, known as Thomas
Leek of Kirketon, Esq., of Kirketon Hall, Screveton and Car Colston,
Notts., who was still living in 1479. He married a Jane, with whom
they had a daughter, Elizabeth Leek, who married Richard Whalley,
Esq., of Darleston, com Staffs., beginning a line of six generations
of Whalleys of Kirton (as they called themselves), of Kirketon /
Kirton Hall at Screveton.
(There is still a memorial tomb to Richard Whalley of Kirton,
grandson of the above Richard, in St. Wilfrid's, the Screveton Parish
Church, which stood very close to Kirton Hall until the Hall was
dismantled in 1823-4).
Thomas de Kirketon bore the blazon: Argent, a fesse and a chevron in
chief, Gules, which had been inherited from his great-great-
grandfather, Gilbert de Kirketon, when he had been serving in
Westmorland. This blazon was repeatedly quartered so that by 1580
the Whalley of Kirton arms consisted of 12 quarterings: Walley /
Moybray / Leek / Kirton / Hatfield / Mallet / Warde / Francis /
Selioke. By agreement with the Herald's office this was reduced to
quarterings including: Whalley / Leek or Leake / Moybray /
FitzArcher / Kirton, and by 1583 when the last mentioned Richard
died, the arms had been reduced again to just four quarterings,
including: Whalley, Moybray and Leeke.
Grace de Kyrton, as co-heir, brought her father's blazon to
Biddenham, Beds., where, quartered with those of Boteler, they may
still be seen on a 1601 memorial in the Biddenham Parish Church,
while the blazon intact was inherited by Alan de Kirketon or Kirton,
also of Biddenham,
escheator, who was probably a cousin to Walter de Kirketon.
Jonathan Kirton, Canada

Gjest

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 13:46:49

On 19 Aug., 11:54, jonathan kirton <jonathankir...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
I was very interested to see these postings, and believe I can show a
Radulphus (Ralph) de Leek.

Jonathan

Thanks for an interesting and informative post.

From Thoroton's (pages 244-252) there is mention of the William de
Leek who married Avicia de Stockton, dau. of John de Stockton and his
wife (given name still not known) de Kyrton, who was the eldest
daughter of Thomas de Kirketon of Kirketon Hall, Screveton, Notts.,
and the eldest sister and co-heir of her brother Walter de Kirketon /
Kyrton of Screveton, Notts., and of Biddenham, Beds. who had died
s.p.. The younger sister and co-heir was Grace de Kyrton, who married
Thomas Boteler of Biddenham, and inherited from her brother some
lands in Biddenham which her brother had originally purchased from
William Boteler, the father of the above mentioned Thomas. Avicia
de Stockton thus brought Kirketon / Kirton Hall to her marriage to
William de Leek, their only son being Radulphus de Leek

This is at odds with what Roskell et al say in History of Parliament
1386-1421. vol III, p 587:

"[In 1418 William Leek] made a new settlement of his wife's
inheritance, entailing a reversionary interest upon the issue of his
two younger sons. Such a precaution proved unnecessary, even so, for
he was succeeded not long afterwards by William Leek, their elder
brother" (citing Thoroton, vol I, pp 248-9 and PRO E 179/159/48 -
possibly an IPM?)

of Kirketon
Hall, Screveton, who married Agnes Babington, eldest daughter of Sir
William Babington, Chief Justice. Radulphus died s.p. after his only
son, John de Leek, predeceased his father, seised of the manor of
Kirketon, so that Kirketon Hall passed to his nephew,

Would not the fact that he had a nephew named Leek also be indicative
of his having at least one brother?

known as Thomas
Leek of Kirketon, Esq., of Kirketon Hall, Screveton and Car Colston,
Notts., who was still living in 1479. He married a Jane, with whom
they had a daughter, Elizabeth Leek, who married Richard Whalley,
Esq., of Darleston, com Staffs., beginning a line of six generations
of Whalleys of Kirton (as they called themselves), of Kirketon /
Kirton Hall at Screveton.

(snip)

Kind regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 13:57:31

On 19 Aug., 13:46, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 19 Aug., 11:54, jonathan kirton <jonathankir...@sympatico.ca
wrote:

I was very interested to see these postings, and believe I can show a
Radulphus (Ralph) de Leek.

In fact, Thoroton (vol I p 249) also muddies the water further for us,
telling us that William Leek of Screveton put his wife's estates into
the hands of feoffees in 6 Henry V. These he names as:

1. Simon de Leek
2. Ralph, his own son
3. Joan, his wife [ie Ralph's wife]
4. Ralph his brother
5. John, his said brother's son
6. Nicholas his brother
7. Thomas, son of that Nicholas.

This would seem to support the contention advanced in HoP that Sir
Simon Leek had at least three sons: Sir John (father of Simon);
William (of Screveton) and Ralph, father a John. It also adds a
fourth (Nicholas).

MA-R

John Higgins

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av John Higgins » 19 aug 2007 22:15:29

Actually, after reviewing this note, I'm inclined to think that HoP, not
Payling, is right and that Margaret Leek, the wife successively of Sir
Godfrey Foljambe and Sir Thomas Rempston, was the sister and not the
daughter of the MP Sir John Leek who mar. Isabel Towers. The only support I
can readily find for Payling's position is the sketchy reference to her as
dau. of Sir John in the pedigree of the Cheney family (into which her
Rempston grandaughter married) in the Visitations of Cambridgeshire (HSP 41)
that you mention.

OTOH, several HoP articles (Leek, Rempston, Plumpton) say that she was the
sister of Sir John, not his daughter. The narrative in the HoP article on
Sir John regarding her marriage contracts is pretty detailed and these are
presumably well-documented - as is, no doubt, the marriage contract of
Margaret's Foljambe daughter Isabel, who is said by HoP to be Sir John's
niece, not his granddaughter. If Margaret's father was in fact Sir Simon
and had already died, it would make sense that Sir John as her brother was
making all these arrangements.

Admittedly the chronology can work in either direction, it's not implausible
chronologically to see Margaret as the sister of Sir John. If her daughter
Isabel was born in 1387 (as per HoP - Plumpton), Margaret must have been
born no later than ca. 1370 - possibly 18-20 years younger than Sir John and
maybe 10 (or fewer) years younger than his brother William. Admittedly she
was long-lived (dying in 1454), but that doesn't necessarily mean that she
was born later.

These Leeks are certainly a hard bunch to track down....maybe we need a
plumber.... [groan!!]

BTW, for those who may be interested, Margaret Leek is one of a select group
of folks who are ancestors of Princes William and Harry by each of at least
two spouses.


----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen


On 18 Aug., 19:43, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


There is also a pedigree (unsourced) of the family in Simon Payling,
"Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottinghamshire". It starts with Sir Simon (m. Margaret Vaux) and his
two
sons the MPs Sir John (m. Isabel Towers) and William (m. Avice
Stockton).
For Sir John, it gives as children Simon (m. Joan Talbot), Margaret (m.
Foljambe and Rempston), and John, (m. Alice Grey). It continues John's
line
one generation to William who m. Katherine Chaworth.

This too raises an interesting problem, in that it names Margaret, the
wife of Godfrey Foljambe and then of Sir Thomas Rempston, KG, as the
daughter of Sir John Leek, rather than his sister, as per HoP.

I was looking at the chronology of the Leeks during the week, and was
struck by how much younger Margaret must have been than her brothers.
This makes me wonder whether Payling is correct.

Sir Simon Leek (I here assume that HoP and Payling are correct in
assigning him as the progenitor) was married and possibly had children
before 1351. Of his children:

(a) Sir John was active by 1376, and his son Simon was of age by
1390. It therefore seems likely he was born by the early 1350s at the
latest.

(b) William was married by 1385, and active by 1388 (collector of a
tax).

Furthermore, John, grandson of Sir Simon, was active by 1400 (farmer
of the estates of William Hamsterley).

However, Margaret Leek married Godfrey Foljambe (born circa 1367)
after 1382; her first child was born in 1387, and she survived until
1454.

Interestingly, the Visitation of Cambridgeshire (sub Cheney), which is
relatively reliable, states that the elder Sir Thomas Rempton married
"Margarett d. of John Leek".

It was thus seem likely that HoP has placed Margaret a generation to
high in the Leek pedigree.

MA-R


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