I am definitely not an expert, nor do I profess to have heard all rumours
about royal illegitimate children.
Without looking up anything, just as far as my memory goes, I understand
that Edward III was totally faithful to his Queen Philippa.
Which means that Alice Perrers became a part of his life after 15 August
1369. But in these three e-mails is suggested that Edward III fathered a
child by Alice Perrers circa 1364/1365. I understand Alice was very much
entrenched in the affection of Edward III (who died 21 June 1377) why would
she (and why would the king allow her) to marry William de Wyndsore between
19 December 1374 and April 1376?
Also I think Alice must have had more children. If I understand correctly
Douglas Richardson has found only a possible son and a possible daughter of
Alice, both presumed to be by the king.
Somewhere I read that Alice Perrers had (at least) a daughter by her first
husband and mother and daughter went to bed with Edward III who then caught
a disease from either. Also, thank you Douglas for mentioning her second
husband, according to a footnote in CP XII/2 Page 877, William de Wyndsore
died _s.p. or s.p. legit_ then the footnote Presumably his wife's
_daughters_(plural), if by him, were illegitimate.
Then a reference to page 880.
Here again in a footnote are mentioned the two daughters both named Joan.
_whose paternity and legitimacy are uncertain_
I would love to know whether Joan the Elder was that daughter who also slept
with Edward III, or was there another daughter?
Definitely a messy story and it is a great effort trying to unravel it.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,alt.history.british
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:36 AM
Subject: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her children
Dear Newsgroup ~
I recently had occasion to research the history of Alice [de] Perrers,
the notorious mistress of King Edward III of England, and her
children. The results of that research are found below. Due to the
excessive length of this post, the material will be broken up into
three parts. The information below both expands and corrects our
knowledge in many points regarding the history of Alice [de} Perrers
and her children. For instance, it has recently come to light that
Alice [de] Perrers was earlier the widow and executrix of Janyn
Perrers, of London, which Janyn was living 24 June 1360 [see Chaucer
Review, 40 (2006): 219-229]. This important new discovery by the
historian, Mark Ormrod, is a welcome new addition to the Wyndesore
account found in Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 877-880.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her children:
Part I
According to several modern historians, King Edward III of England
allegedly had two or three illegitimate children by his mistress,
Alice [de] Perrers (or Perers, Pereres, Perriers). See, for example,
Given-Wilson, Royal Bastards of Medieval England (1984): 136-137;
Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 119-120; Smith,
Human Biology & Hist. (Soc. for the Study of Human Biology Ser.: 42)
(2002): 66). Yet D.N.B. 15 (1909): 898-900 (biog. of Alice Perrers)
assigns none of Alice's children to King Edward III, and Bickley,
King's Favourites (1910): 62 says only the father of her two daughters
(both named Joan) "is a matter of dispute." According to Thomas
Walsingham, author of Chronicon Angliæ (a prejudiced source), Alice
was the daughter of an unnamed thatcher of Henney [presumably Hanney
in Berkshire], and that in her earlier life she had earlier been the
household drudge and concubine to a certain unnamed individual. In
contrast, Gyll, Hist. of Wraysbury (1862): 203-204 claimed that Alice
was "was not ignobly born, and was either daughter or granddaughter"
of Richard de Perrers, Knt. (died c.1340), of Knebworth,
Hertfordshire, Sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire. Evidence provided
in VCH Hertford, 3 (1912): 111-118 indicates, however, that the issue
of Sir Richard de Perrers was extinct before 1398, at which date Alice
de Perrers is known to have still been living. More recent research
by the historian, W.M. Ormrod, has shown that the king's mistress,
Alice de Perrers, was the widow and executrix of Janyn Perrers, of
London, who was living 24 June 1360 [see Chaucer Review 40 (2006): 219-
229]. Alice's Perrers marriage is further confirmed by a deed dated
10 Dec. 1374, in which she styled herself "Alice Perrier, widow" [see
Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 879, footnote a; Holmes The Good
Parliament (1975): 97, footnote 7]. Janyn Perrers' date of death is
unknown, but he was doubtless deceased sometime before 18 December
1362, when John de Mereworth, Knt., obtained a license to enfeoff
Alice Perrers and John de Hanneye, parson of Trottiscliffe, Kent, of
the manor of West Peckham, Kent, and for them to grant the same to him
for life. It is thought that the king's liaison with Alice began as
early as 1364, as on 9 Dec. 1364 John de Hatfeld, Gilbert Bonet,
vintner, and others citizens of London mainprised Richard Lyons "to
keep the peace with Alice de Perers, and not to interfere with her
going where she wished on the King's business and on her own." In
1365 Alice sued Richard de Kent, stockfishmonger, for the return of
200 marks which she had lent him; which debt was admitted by the
defendant and he was committed to prison; afterwards Alice consented
to his release. Sometime before 1366, Alice became a damsel of the
chamber to Queen Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III. In
that year she was granted two tuns of Gascon wine yearly "for long
service" to Queen Philippe. In 1367 the king granted Alice the
wardship of the lands of Robert de Tilliol, deceased, together with
the marriage of the heir; in 1370 the king "of his more abundant
grace" further granted Alice the keeping of the lands of Felice, late
widow of Robert de Tilliol, to hold during the minority of the heir.
In 1367 Alice acquired the manor of Ardington, Berkshire without
license from John de Cobham, Knt., and John of Gaunt, Duke of
Lancaster, for which action she was pardoned in 1368. In 1368 Alice
was granted license to enfeoff John de Hanneye, John de Ploufeld, and
William Gresleye, chaplains, with the manor of Ardington, Berkshire;
the same feoffees were likewise pardoned by the king for acquiring the
manor of Meonstoke, Hampshire from Thomas de la Bere without license
for the benefit of Alice. The same year Alice and her heirs were
granted a plot called 'Manylawes [Moneylaws],' Northumberland, then in
the king's hand as an escheat. In 1369 Alice, then styled of London,
was granted permission to grant two parts of the manor of Moneylaws,
Northumberland and the reversion of the third part to Henry del
Strother for life. In late 1369 or early 1370 Alan de Buxhall granted
to Alice the keeping of the lands of the Joan de Orreby, deceased, and
the marriage of Joan's heir; in May 1370 the king further granted
Alice the keeping of the lands of Margaret, mother of Joan de Orreby,
which Margaret had held in dower or for life of the inheritance of
Joan. In 1370 the manor of Compton Murdak, Warwickshire was conveyed
by Sir Thomas Murdak to William de Greseley, clerk, who in turn
conveyed it in 1373 to John Bernes of London and others, presumably
all of whom were acting as feoffees for Alice Perrers. In 1371 Alice
conveyed to the king all her lands and tenements in Dertford,
Wilmington, Stone, etc., Kent which she had of the gift of Nicholas de
Holbourne, citizen of London. The same year she sued John Straunge
for poaching in her free warren at Compton Murdak, Warwickshire.
Sometime before 1371, William de Salesby and Christina his wife,
William's mother, Joan, Alice de Perrers, and John Hanney, chaplain
purchased a messuage called the Fleur de Lis in Canterbury, Kent; in
1371, Joan and Alice released their right in the messuage to William
by a deed made at Pallingswick (in Fulham), Middlesex (then Alice's
residence). Sometime before 1372, Alice acquired the manor of
Philiberts (in Hanney), Berkshire. In 1372-1373 Alice acquired
various lands, rents, and services called 'Northbrokes' in Fulham,
Middlesex from John Flemmyng, of Norwich, and his wife, Margaret. In
1373-1374 Alice, William Mulsho, and John Freford, clerks, demised to
John Mory and John Badell the manor of Veisies in Stratford, Suffolk
for a term of 4 years. In 1374 she loaned £1,000 to John Brett, Knt.,
of Nottinghamshire. In November 1375 Walter Fitz Walter, Knt., 3rd
Lord Fitz Walter, being captured in the war in France, mortaged his
castle and lordship of Egremont, Cumberland to Alice for £1,000 to pay
his ransom, on condition that he repay the said £1,000 within ten
years. Alice married after Nov. 1375 (when it was confirmed by a jury
that she was single) but before April 1376 WILLIAM DE WINDSOR (or
WYNDESORE), Knt., Lord Windsor, of Grayrigg, Heversham, Holme, and
Morland, Westmorland, Joint Warden of the West March towards Scotland,
Sheriff of Cumberland and Keeper of Carlisle Castle, 1367-1368, King's
Lieutenant in Ireland, 1369-1372, 1373-1376, Keeper of the Castle and
Town of Cherbourg, son and heir of Alexander de Windsor, of Grayrigg,
Heversham, and Morland, Westmorland, by his wife, Elizabeth. He was
born 1322-1328 (of age before August 1349). In 1376 the Good
Parliament sentenced Alice to banishment and forfeiture, but in the
following year, the Bad Parliament reversed this sentence, and she
regained her possessions. In May 1377 Alice's feoffees, John de
Freton, clerk, Robert Brome (or Broun), and Hugh Cotyngham, clerk,
were granted the reversion of various manors in Devon and Cornwall
held for life by Sir James de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley. In the first
Parliament of King Richard II, she was brought before the lords at the
request of the commons, and the original sentence against her was
confirmed 22 Dec. 1377. On 5 Jan. 1378 King Richard II granted the
inn near the Thames and the houses adjoining its great gate in the
parish of All Hallows the Less, London "lately built by Alice de
Perieres" to his uncle, John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster. On 14
December 1379, the sentence against Alice was again revoked; she had
license to remain in the realm, though no concession was made for her
property. On 10 and 15 March 1379/80, William was placed in
possession of all the lands and reversions which Alice had held before
Dec. 1377, which grant was made conditional on his going to Brittany
with Thomas, Earl of Buckingham. He subsequently served in Brittany,
1380-1381. On 15 March 1380, the manor of Meonstoke, Hampshire
formerly held by Alice was granted in fee-simple to her husband,
William de Windsor, who in the following June, obtained licence from
the king to sell the manor to William of Wykeham, Bishop of
Winchester. In 1378 the king made a life grant to Adam de Colton of a
garden, dovecote, and meadow called La Hale in Bermondsey, Surrey,
which had been forfeited by Alice Perrers; in 1380 he granted the same
property to William de Windsor (Alice's husband), together with
another tenement in Bermondsey which she had also held. In 1378 Alice
held the manor of Southcote in Ruislip, Middlesex; after the
confiscation of her properties that year, the manor was leased to
Peter Petrewogh, who held it until 1379, when Alice's forfeited
properties were granted to her husband, William de Windsor. In 1381
William de Wyndesore and his wife, Alice, settled the manors of
Kingham, Oxfordshire, Compton Murdak, Warwickshire, and Drayton,
Berkshire on feoffees; the same year William de Wykeham, Bishop of
Winchester, received license to alienate the manor of Drayton,
Berkshire to the College of St. Mary of Winchester (now New College),
lately founded by him at Oxford. In 1382 John de Southbury conveyed
the manor of Southbury (in Hanney), Berkshire to feoffees, evidently
for the purpose of conveying the manor to Alice. In 1385 she
quitclaimed her interest in the manor of Marks (in Dagenham and
Havering), Essex to Alice Pertenhale, widow of Thomas Yonge, and
William Kelet and Alice his wife. SIR WILLIAM DE WINDSOR, Lord
Windsor, died at Heversham, Westmorland 15 Sept. 1384. He left a
nuncupative will dated 10 Sept. 1384, proved 22 October 1384. In 1386
his widow, Alice, was sued by Thomas Charlton and Alice, his wife, for
the manor of Gunnersbury (in Ealing), Middlesex. In 1389 she brought
a plaint of intrusion against John de Windsor, Esq. (her late
husband's nephew), John Elmeshall, and William Preston, touching her
free tenement in the parish of All Hallows the Less, London. The same
year she had a lawsuit with William de Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester,
as to jewels which she alleged she had pawned to him after her
indictment. In 1392 she sold the manor of Herons (in Wheathampstead),
Hertfordshire to John Sandhill, citizen and chandler of London. In
1393 John Windsor was in Newgate prison for a debt of £660 owed to
Gaultiero Bardi, citizen of London, and for detaining goods belonging
to Alice Windsor, valued at £3,000, and to Joan Windsor, valued at
£4,000. In 1397 Alice Windsor again petitioned for the reversal of
the judgement against her, and the matter was referred for the king's
decision, apparently without effect. Alice died at Upminster, Essex
shortly before 25 Nov. 1400 (commission of administration). She left
a will dated 20 Aug. 1400, proved 3 Feb. 1400/1, requesting burial in
the church of Upminster.
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Fw: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her
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Leo van de Pas
Fw: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her
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- ↳ Sunnfjord
- ↳ Askvoll
- ↳ Fjaler
- ↳ Flora
- ↳ Førde
- ↳ Gaular
- ↳ Jølster
- ↳ Naustdal
- ↳ Sunnfjord - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Ytre Sogn
- ↳ Gulen
- ↳ Hyllestad
- ↳ Høyanger
- ↳ Solund
- ↳ Ytre Sogn - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Sogn og Fjordane - ukjent sted
- ↳ Sør-Trøndelag
- ↳ Fosen
- ↳ Agdenes
- ↳ Bjugn
- ↳ Frøya
- ↳ Hemne
- ↳ Hitra
- ↳ Osen
- ↳ Rissa
- ↳ Roan
- ↳ Snillfjord
- ↳ Ørland
- ↳ Åfjord
- ↳ Fosen - ukjent kommune / hele regionen
- ↳ Gauldal
- ↳ Holtålen
- ↳ Melhus
- ↳ Midtre Gauldal
- ↳ Røros
- ↳ Gauldal - ukjent kommune / hele regionen
- ↳ Orkdal
- ↳ Meldal
- ↳ Oppdal
- ↳ Orkdal
- ↳ Rennebu
- ↳ Skaun
- ↳ Orkdal - ukjent kommune / hele regionen
- ↳ Strinda og Selbu
- ↳ Klæbu
- ↳ Malvik
- ↳ Selbu
- ↳ Tydal
- ↳ Strinda og Selbu-distriktet - ukjent kommune / hele regionen
- ↳ Trondheim
- ↳ Sør-Trøndelag - ukjent sted
- ↳ Telemark
- ↳ Kragerø-distriktet
- ↳ Drangedal
- ↳ Kragerø
- ↳ Kragerø-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Midt-Telemark
- ↳ Bø i Telemark
- ↳ Nome
- ↳ Sauherad
- ↳ Seljord
- ↳ Midt-Telemark - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Notodden-Rjukan-distriktet
- ↳ Hjartdal
- ↳ Notodden
- ↳ Tinn
- ↳ Notodden-Rjukan-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Skien-Porsgrunn-distriktet
- ↳ Bamble
- ↳ Porsgrunn
- ↳ Siljan
- ↳ Skien
- ↳ Skien-Porsgrunn-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Vest-Telemark
- ↳ Fyresdal
- ↳ Kviteseid
- ↳ Nissedal
- ↳ Tokke
- ↳ Vinje
- ↳ Vest-Telemark - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Telemark - ukjent sted
- ↳ Troms
- ↳ Indre Troms
- ↳ Balsfjord
- ↳ Bardu
- ↳ Målselv
- ↳ Indre Troms - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Nord-Troms
- ↳ Gaivuotna - Kåfjord
- ↳ Kvænangen
- ↳ Lyngen
- ↳ Nordreisa
- ↳ Skjervøy
- ↳ Storfjord
- ↳ Nord-Troms - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Senja
- ↳ Berg
- ↳ Dyrøy
- ↳ Lenvik
- ↳ Sørreisa
- ↳ Torsken
- ↳ Tranøy
- ↳ Senja - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Sør-Troms
- ↳ Bjarkøy
- ↳ Gratangen
- ↳ Harstad
- ↳ Ibestad
- ↳ Kvæfjord
- ↳ Lavangen
- ↳ Salangen
- ↳ Skånland
- ↳ Sør-Troms - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Tromsø-distriktet
- ↳ Karlsøy
- ↳ Tromsø
- ↳ Tromsø-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Troms - ukjent sted
- ↳ Vest-Agder
- ↳ Flekkefjord distriktet
- ↳ Flekkefjord
- ↳ Kvinesdal
- ↳ Sirdal
- ↳ Flekkefjord distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Kristiansand distriktet
- ↳ Kristiansand
- ↳ Songdalen
- ↳ Søgne
- ↳ Vennesla
- ↳ Kristiansand distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Mandal-Farsund distriktet
- ↳ Audnedal
- ↳ Farsund
- ↳ Hægebostad
- ↳ Lindesnes
- ↳ Lyngdal
- ↳ Mandal
- ↳ Marnardal
- ↳ Åseral
- ↳ Mandal-Farsund distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Vest-Agder - ukjent sted
- ↳ Vestfold
- ↳ Holmestrand-Horten-distriktet
- ↳ Hof
- ↳ Holmestrand
- ↳ Horten
- ↳ Re
- ↳ Sande i Vestfold
- ↳ Svelvik
- ↳ Holmestrand-Horten-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Larvik-distriktet
- ↳ Larvik
- ↳ Lardal
- ↳ Larvik-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Tønsberg-Sandefjord-distriktet
- ↳ Andebu
- ↳ Nøtterøy
- ↳ Sandefjord
- ↳ Stokke
- ↳ Tjøme
- ↳ Tønsberg
- ↳ Tønsberg-Sandefjord-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Vestfold - ukjent sted
- ↳ Østfold
- ↳ Fredrikstad-Sarpsborg-distriktet
- ↳ Fredrikstad
- ↳ Hvaler
- ↳ Sarpsborg
- ↳ Fredrikstad-Sarpsborg-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Halden-distriktet
- ↳ Aremark
- ↳ Halden
- ↳ Halden-distriktet - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Indre Østfold
- ↳ Askim
- ↳ Eidsberg
- ↳ Hobøl
- ↳ Marker
- ↳ Rakkestad
- ↳ Rømskog
- ↳ Skiptvet
- ↳ Spydeberg
- ↳ Trøgstad
- ↳ Indre Østfold - ukjent kommune
- ↳ Moss-distriktet
- ↳ Moss
- ↳ Rygge
- ↳ Råde
- ↳ Våler i Østfold
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- ↳ Østfold - ukjent sted
- ↳ Norge - ukjent fylke
- ↳ Hvor i Norge ligger stedet?
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- ↳ Immigrasjon til Norge (ikke etterlysn.)
- Nyhetsgrupper (arkiv)
- ↳ Google nyhetsgrupper
- Fora der du kan skrive norsk
- ↳ no.fritid.slektsforsking.etterlysing
- ↳ no.fritid.slektsforsking.diverse
- ↳ no.fritid.slektsforsking.it
- ↳ dk.videnskab.historie.genealogi
- ↳ dk.videnskab.historie.lokalhistorie
- ↳ se.hobby.genealogi
- Fora der du MÅ skrive engelsk
- ↳ alt.genealogy
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- Om Slektsforum
- ↳ Informasjon om Slektsforum
- ↳ Testforum
- ↳ Møre og Romsdal
- ↳ Aure: Gardtales i Aure
- ↳ Aure: Gardtales i Stemshaug
- ↳ Averøy: Averøy bygdebok
- ↳ Eide: Eideboka. Gard og slekt
- ↳ Frei: Gards- og ættesoge for Frei
- ↳ Gjemnes: Gards- og ættesoge for Gjemnes
- ↳ Gjemnes: Gards- og ættesoge for Tingvoll, bind 1
- ↳ Halsa: Halsaboka
- ↳ Halsa: Gardtales i Valsøyfjord
- ↳ Kristiansund: Befolkningen på Grip gjennom 300 år
- ↳ Rindal: Gards- og ættesoge for Rindal
- ↳ Smøla: Smøla bygdebok
- ↳ Sunndal: Heimar og ætter i Stangvik, bind 3
- ↳ Sunndal: Sunndalsboka
- ↳ Surnadal: Folk og heimar i Åsskard
- ↳ Surnadal: Gards- og ættesoge for Surnadal
- ↳ Surnadal: Heimar i Surnadal
- ↳ Surnadal: Heimar og ætter i Stangvik, bind 1-2
- ↳ Tingvoll: Gards- og ættesoga for Straumsnes
- ↳ Tingvoll: Gards- og ættesoge for Tingvoll, bind 2-3
- ↳ Tingvoll: Heimar og ætter i Stangvik, bind 3
- ↳ Tustna: Tustna bygdebok
- ↳ Kjøp og salg
- ↳ Funn
- ↳ Diskuter DIS-Norges programtester