Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her chi

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Douglas Richardson

Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her chi

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 14 aug 2007 20:36:39

Dear Newsgroup ~

I recently had occasion to research the history of Alice [de] Perrers,
the notorious mistress of King Edward III of England, and her
children. The results of that research are found below. Due to the
excessive length of this post, the material will be broken up into
three parts. The information below both expands and corrects our
knowledge in many points regarding the history of Alice [de} Perrers
and her children. For instance, it has recently come to light that
Alice [de] Perrers was earlier the widow and executrix of Janyn
Perrers, of London, which Janyn was living 24 June 1360 [see Chaucer
Review, 40 (2006): 219-229]. This important new discovery by the
historian, Mark Ormrod, is a welcome new addition to the Wyndesore
account found in Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 877-880.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her children:
Part I

According to several modern historians, King Edward III of England
allegedly had two or three illegitimate children by his mistress,
Alice [de] Perrers (or Perers, Pereres, Perriers). See, for example,
Given-Wilson, Royal Bastards of Medieval England (1984): 136-137;
Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 119-120; Smith,
Human Biology & Hist. (Soc. for the Study of Human Biology Ser.: 42)
(2002): 66). Yet D.N.B. 15 (1909): 898-900 (biog. of Alice Perrers)
assigns none of Alice's children to King Edward III, and Bickley,
King's Favourites (1910): 62 says only the father of her two daughters
(both named Joan) "is a matter of dispute." According to Thomas
Walsingham, author of Chronicon Angliæ (a prejudiced source), Alice
was the daughter of an unnamed thatcher of Henney [presumably Hanney
in Berkshire], and that in her earlier life she had earlier been the
household drudge and concubine to a certain unnamed individual. In
contrast, Gyll, Hist. of Wraysbury (1862): 203-204 claimed that Alice
was "was not ignobly born, and was either daughter or granddaughter"
of Richard de Perrers, Knt. (died c.1340), of Knebworth,
Hertfordshire, Sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire. Evidence provided
in VCH Hertford, 3 (1912): 111-118 indicates, however, that the issue
of Sir Richard de Perrers was extinct before 1398, at which date Alice
de Perrers is known to have still been living. More recent research
by the historian, W.M. Ormrod, has shown that the king's mistress,
Alice de Perrers, was the widow and executrix of Janyn Perrers, of
London, who was living 24 June 1360 [see Chaucer Review 40 (2006): 219-
229]. Alice's Perrers marriage is further confirmed by a deed dated
10 Dec. 1374, in which she styled herself "Alice Perrier, widow" [see
Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 879, footnote a; Holmes The Good
Parliament (1975): 97, footnote 7]. Janyn Perrers' date of death is
unknown, but he was doubtless deceased sometime before 18 December
1362, when John de Mereworth, Knt., obtained a license to enfeoff
Alice Perrers and John de Hanneye, parson of Trottiscliffe, Kent, of
the manor of West Peckham, Kent, and for them to grant the same to him
for life. It is thought that the king's liaison with Alice began as
early as 1364, as on 9 Dec. 1364 John de Hatfeld, Gilbert Bonet,
vintner, and others citizens of London mainprised Richard Lyons "to
keep the peace with Alice de Perers, and not to interfere with her
going where she wished on the King's business and on her own." In
1365 Alice sued Richard de Kent, stockfishmonger, for the return of
200 marks which she had lent him; which debt was admitted by the
defendant and he was committed to prison; afterwards Alice consented
to his release. Sometime before 1366, Alice became a damsel of the
chamber to Queen Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III. In
that year she was granted two tuns of Gascon wine yearly "for long
service" to Queen Philippe. In 1367 the king granted Alice the
wardship of the lands of Robert de Tilliol, deceased, together with
the marriage of the heir; in 1370 the king "of his more abundant
grace" further granted Alice the keeping of the lands of Felice, late
widow of Robert de Tilliol, to hold during the minority of the heir.
In 1367 Alice acquired the manor of Ardington, Berkshire without
license from John de Cobham, Knt., and John of Gaunt, Duke of
Lancaster, for which action she was pardoned in 1368. In 1368 Alice
was granted license to enfeoff John de Hanneye, John de Ploufeld, and
William Gresleye, chaplains, with the manor of Ardington, Berkshire;
the same feoffees were likewise pardoned by the king for acquiring the
manor of Meonstoke, Hampshire from Thomas de la Bere without license
for the benefit of Alice. The same year Alice and her heirs were
granted a plot called 'Manylawes [Moneylaws],' Northumberland, then in
the king's hand as an escheat. In 1369 Alice, then styled of London,
was granted permission to grant two parts of the manor of Moneylaws,
Northumberland and the reversion of the third part to Henry del
Strother for life. In late 1369 or early 1370 Alan de Buxhall granted
to Alice the keeping of the lands of the Joan de Orreby, deceased, and
the marriage of Joan's heir; in May 1370 the king further granted
Alice the keeping of the lands of Margaret, mother of Joan de Orreby,
which Margaret had held in dower or for life of the inheritance of
Joan. In 1370 the manor of Compton Murdak, Warwickshire was conveyed
by Sir Thomas Murdak to William de Greseley, clerk, who in turn
conveyed it in 1373 to John Bernes of London and others, presumably
all of whom were acting as feoffees for Alice Perrers. In 1371 Alice
conveyed to the king all her lands and tenements in Dertford,
Wilmington, Stone, etc., Kent which she had of the gift of Nicholas de
Holbourne, citizen of London. The same year she sued John Straunge
for poaching in her free warren at Compton Murdak, Warwickshire.
Sometime before 1371, William de Salesby and Christina his wife,
William's mother, Joan, Alice de Perrers, and John Hanney, chaplain
purchased a messuage called the Fleur de Lis in Canterbury, Kent; in
1371, Joan and Alice released their right in the messuage to William
by a deed made at Pallingswick (in Fulham), Middlesex (then Alice's
residence). Sometime before 1372, Alice acquired the manor of
Philiberts (in Hanney), Berkshire. In 1372-1373 Alice acquired
various lands, rents, and services called 'Northbrokes' in Fulham,
Middlesex from John Flemmyng, of Norwich, and his wife, Margaret. In
1373-1374 Alice, William Mulsho, and John Freford, clerks, demised to
John Mory and John Badell the manor of Veisies in Stratford, Suffolk
for a term of 4 years. In 1374 she loaned £1,000 to John Brett, Knt.,
of Nottinghamshire. In November 1375 Walter Fitz Walter, Knt., 3rd
Lord Fitz Walter, being captured in the war in France, mortaged his
castle and lordship of Egremont, Cumberland to Alice for £1,000 to pay
his ransom, on condition that he repay the said £1,000 within ten
years. Alice married after Nov. 1375 (when it was confirmed by a jury
that she was single) but before April 1376 WILLIAM DE WINDSOR (or
WYNDESORE), Knt., Lord Windsor, of Grayrigg, Heversham, Holme, and
Morland, Westmorland, Joint Warden of the West March towards Scotland,
Sheriff of Cumberland and Keeper of Carlisle Castle, 1367-1368, King's
Lieutenant in Ireland, 1369-1372, 1373-1376, Keeper of the Castle and
Town of Cherbourg, son and heir of Alexander de Windsor, of Grayrigg,
Heversham, and Morland, Westmorland, by his wife, Elizabeth. He was
born 1322-1328 (of age before August 1349). In 1376 the Good
Parliament sentenced Alice to banishment and forfeiture, but in the
following year, the Bad Parliament reversed this sentence, and she
regained her possessions. In May 1377 Alice's feoffees, John de
Freton, clerk, Robert Brome (or Broun), and Hugh Cotyngham, clerk,
were granted the reversion of various manors in Devon and Cornwall
held for life by Sir James de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley. In the first
Parliament of King Richard II, she was brought before the lords at the
request of the commons, and the original sentence against her was
confirmed 22 Dec. 1377. On 5 Jan. 1378 King Richard II granted the
inn near the Thames and the houses adjoining its great gate in the
parish of All Hallows the Less, London "lately built by Alice de
Perieres" to his uncle, John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster. On 14
December 1379, the sentence against Alice was again revoked; she had
license to remain in the realm, though no concession was made for her
property. On 10 and 15 March 1379/80, William was placed in
possession of all the lands and reversions which Alice had held before
Dec. 1377, which grant was made conditional on his going to Brittany
with Thomas, Earl of Buckingham. He subsequently served in Brittany,
1380-1381. On 15 March 1380, the manor of Meonstoke, Hampshire
formerly held by Alice was granted in fee-simple to her husband,
William de Windsor, who in the following June, obtained licence from
the king to sell the manor to William of Wykeham, Bishop of
Winchester. In 1378 the king made a life grant to Adam de Colton of a
garden, dovecote, and meadow called La Hale in Bermondsey, Surrey,
which had been forfeited by Alice Perrers; in 1380 he granted the same
property to William de Windsor (Alice's husband), together with
another tenement in Bermondsey which she had also held. In 1378 Alice
held the manor of Southcote in Ruislip, Middlesex; after the
confiscation of her properties that year, the manor was leased to
Peter Petrewogh, who held it until 1379, when Alice's forfeited
properties were granted to her husband, William de Windsor. In 1381
William de Wyndesore and his wife, Alice, settled the manors of
Kingham, Oxfordshire, Compton Murdak, Warwickshire, and Drayton,
Berkshire on feoffees; the same year William de Wykeham, Bishop of
Winchester, received license to alienate the manor of Drayton,
Berkshire to the College of St. Mary of Winchester (now New College),
lately founded by him at Oxford. In 1382 John de Southbury conveyed
the manor of Southbury (in Hanney), Berkshire to feoffees, evidently
for the purpose of conveying the manor to Alice. In 1385 she
quitclaimed her interest in the manor of Marks (in Dagenham and
Havering), Essex to Alice Pertenhale, widow of Thomas Yonge, and
William Kelet and Alice his wife. SIR WILLIAM DE WINDSOR, Lord
Windsor, died at Heversham, Westmorland 15 Sept. 1384. He left a
nuncupative will dated 10 Sept. 1384, proved 22 October 1384. In 1386
his widow, Alice, was sued by Thomas Charlton and Alice, his wife, for
the manor of Gunnersbury (in Ealing), Middlesex. In 1389 she brought
a plaint of intrusion against John de Windsor, Esq. (her late
husband's nephew), John Elmeshall, and William Preston, touching her
free tenement in the parish of All Hallows the Less, London. The same
year she had a lawsuit with William de Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester,
as to jewels which she alleged she had pawned to him after her
indictment. In 1392 she sold the manor of Herons (in Wheathampstead),
Hertfordshire to John Sandhill, citizen and chandler of London. In
1393 John Windsor was in Newgate prison for a debt of £660 owed to
Gaultiero Bardi, citizen of London, and for detaining goods belonging
to Alice Windsor, valued at £3,000, and to Joan Windsor, valued at
£4,000. In 1397 Alice Windsor again petitioned for the reversal of
the judgement against her, and the matter was referred for the king's
decision, apparently without effect. Alice died at Upminster, Essex
shortly before 25 Nov. 1400 (commission of administration). She left
a will dated 20 Aug. 1400, proved 3 Feb. 1400/1, requesting burial in
the church of Upminster.

WJhonson

Re: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 aug 2007 23:18:36

<<In a message dated 08/14/07 12:40:57 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
In 1367 the king granted Alice the
wardship of the lands of Robert de Tilliol, deceased, together with
the marriage of the heir; in 1370 the king "of his more abundant
grace" further granted Alice the keeping of the lands of Felice, late
widow of Robert de Tilliol, to hold during the minority of the heir. >>

----------------

Since I had to look it up, I thought I'd share with all interested parties, how this Tilliol family is supposed to go:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OC3WZU ... iol+felice


Will Johnson

Alan Grey

Re: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her

Legg inn av Alan Grey » 14 aug 2007 23:35:31

I appreciate the interesting post, and have some observations to make.
(Bear in mind, though, that have not studied the Alice-Edward
relationship before, so some of my observations may bespeak ignorance
rather than substance.)

Douglas Richardson wrote:
... It is thought that the king's liaison with Alice began as
early as 1364, as on 9 Dec. 1364 John de Hatfeld, Gilbert Bonet,
vintner, and others citizens of London mainprised Richard Lyons "to
keep the peace with Alice de Perers, and not to interfere with her
going where she wished on the King's business and on her own." ...

If this is the evidence for the start of a relationship then it appears
relatively weak. That aside, does it mean "sometime before" rather than
"as early as"? If the relationship started "as early as" 1364, then
presumably a child could not be born before then. On the other hand, it
is said in the third part of the post that John de Surrey was "probably"
an illegitimate child of Edward III. In the absence of other
information, the timing of the relationship and the probable paternity
of John do not seem to match, given that in all the grants to John
around 1374-77 it was not stated that he was a minor, and no guardian
was mentioned. In the grant of 1374 he is called John de Surreye in his
own right, and held letters patent, which seems strange for a boy of ten
years or less (and why would a boy be called "of Surrey" instead of "son
of ..."?). Similarly, he alone petitioned the king for a range of
manors in 1377 and was granted them, again by letters patent. When the
grant of Bolton was revoked by the advice of the Council, there is no
indication that he was a minor. To me it seems highly unusual that a
boy, a legal minor, would appear in the records in this way without ever
any reference to another party, not even his mother. Therefore, was he
in fact somewhat older and the relationship between Alice and Edward III
started much earlier than 1364, or is he perhaps not Edward's son?

... Sometime before 1366, Alice became a damsel of the
chamber to Queen Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III. In
that year she was granted two tuns of Gascon wine yearly "for long
service" to Queen Philippe. ...

I wonder what "long service" means. The grant seems to imply that Alice
had been a damsel for quite some time. Is there a good record of
Philippa's damsels and when they were in her household? Perhaps Alice
was in the household while a single woman under another name (given that
Perrers seems to be a married name rather than a birth name).

Alan R Grey

Douglas Richardson

Re: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 aug 2007 01:40:01

Deat Alan ~

Thank you for your good response. It's much appreciated.

In the course of my research, I considered all of the points you have
raised. I also consulted at length with the historian, Mark Ormrod,
who is in the midst of preparing another article on Alice de Perrers.

Yes, you are certainly correct that the evidence is weak as to when
the affair of King Edward III and Alice de Perrers actually began.
About all anyone can do is surmise when it started. The affair must
have started after 1360, as Alice's first husband, Jankyn de Perrers,
was still living as of that date. Her husband evidently died soon
afterwards. By 1364 Alice was acting on behalf of the king, which
suggests that Alice was already involved with the king. Once the
affair began, the relationship became a rather a complex one. Alice
clearly comes across in the records as a very grasping and power
hungry woman. There are many references in connection with costly
jewels and the acquisition of lands. Most of her land acquisitions
can be easily traced. However, her acquisition of the reversion of
the Audley lands was overlooked by Mr. Ormrod, as her trustees handled
that matter for her, just as they did for many of her other land
acquisitions. As I recall, Alice ran into trouble before she ever
obtained possession of the Audley reversion. King Richard II
eventually granted the Audley lands to his half-brother, John Holand.

As to the approximate birth date of Alice's son, John de Surrey, it
appears he was a minor during the events you have cited, including his
knighthood, grant of lands, and petition to the king. While rare,
I've seen similar instances of minors involved in all these matters in
English records, including the granting of lands to a minor without
mention of a guardian. In fact, while I was doing my research on
Alice de Perrers, purely by accident, I encountered the petition of
yet another minor to the king, in which no mention is made that the
minor was under age. So a minor could and did petition the king.

In 1366 Alice was stated to have been long in service to Queen
Philippe. The adjective "long" tells us nothing of duration.
However, one can only speculate that it was more than at least two
years. Beyond that, it is anyone's guess.

As for the paternity of Alice de Perrers' two younger children, I'm
presently convinced that King Edward III was in fact their father.
King Edward's treatment of the son, John de Surrey, parallels the
treatment accorded Roger de Clarendon, the illegitimate son of King
Edward III's eldest son, Edward the Black Prince. Roger de Clarendon
was thus an illegitimate grandson of King Edward III.

For reasons not fully understood by me, in this time period, the crown
was evidently loath to acknowledge royal bastard children outright.
Roger de Clarendon, for example, is named in Edward the Black Prince's
will, but is not called his son. I've had to look elsewhere for
contemporary evidence which proves Roger's paternity.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

AdrianBnjmBurke

Re: Alice [de] Perrers, mistress of King Edward III, and her

Legg inn av AdrianBnjmBurke » 15 aug 2007 04:10:07

On Aug 14, 8:40 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Deat Alan ~

Thank you for your good response. It's much appreciated.

In the course of my research, I considered all of the points you have
raised. I also consulted at length with the historian, Mark Ormrod,
who is in the midst of preparing another article on Alice de Perrers.

Yes, you are certainly correct that the evidence is weak as to when
the affair of King Edward III and Alice de Perrers actually began.
About all anyone can do is surmise when it started. The affair must
have started after 1360, as Alice's first husband, Jankyn de Perrers,
was still living as of that date. Her husband evidently died soon
afterwards. By 1364 Alice was acting on behalf of the king, which
suggests that Alice was already involved with the king. Once the
affair began, the relationship became a rather a complex one. Alice
clearly comes across in the records as a very grasping and power
hungry woman. There are many references in connection with costly
jewels and the acquisition of lands. Most of her land acquisitions
can be easily traced. However, her acquisition of the reversion of
the Audley lands was overlooked by Mr. Ormrod, as her trustees handled
that matter for her, just as they did for many of her other land
acquisitions. As I recall, Alice ran into trouble before she ever
obtained possession of the Audley reversion. King Richard II
eventually granted the Audley lands to his half-brother, John Holand.

As to the approximate birth date of Alice's son, John de Surrey, it
appears he was a minor during the events you have cited, including his
knighthood, grant of lands, and petition to the king. While rare,
I've seen similar instances of minors involved in all these matters in
English records, including the granting of lands to a minor without
mention of a guardian. In fact, while I was doing my research on
Alice de Perrers, purely by accident, I encountered the petition of
yet another minor to the king, in which no mention is made that the
minor was under age. So a minor could and did petition the king.

In 1366 Alice was stated to have been long in service to Queen
Philippe. The adjective "long" tells us nothing of duration.
However, one can only speculate that it was more than at least two
years. Beyond that, it is anyone's guess.

As for the paternity of Alice de Perrers' two younger children, I'm
presently convinced that King Edward III was in fact their father.
King Edward's treatment of the son, John de Surrey, parallels the
treatment accorded Roger de Clarendon, the illegitimate son of King
Edward III's eldest son, Edward the Black Prince. Roger de Clarendon
was thus an illegitimate grandson of King Edward III.

For reasons not fully understood by me, in this time period, the crown
was evidently loath to acknowledge royal bastard children outright.
Roger de Clarendon, for example, is named in Edward the Black Prince's
will, but is not called his son. I've had to look elsewhere for
contemporary evidence which proves Roger's paternity.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Mr Richardson -

you write about minors acting with de facto legal capacity in the
middle ages - i am wondering if in your research you have come across
such an example but later in the middle ages, say 16th century as
opposed to 14th century?

Thanks

ADRIAN BENJAMIN BURKE

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»