Simon de Montforts?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Dana S. Leslie
Simon de Montforts?
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
Thank you.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
Thank you.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Simon de Montforts?
Check this site...
<http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/catalog.html>
Many of your questions will be answered -- but not all.
It's stronger on British nobility and royalty.
You are a Princeton graduate -- a tigress?
DSH
-------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:212wi.77819$g86.32188@newsfe14.lga...
<http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/catalog.html>
Many of your questions will be answered -- but not all.
It's stronger on British nobility and royalty.
You are a Princeton graduate -- a tigress?
DSH
-------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:212wi.77819$g86.32188@newsfe14.lga...
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
Thank you.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
CE Wood
Re: Simon de Montforts?
See both the Roglo database at http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=121577
As well as Jim Weber's site at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I01935
CE Wood
On Aug 13, 12:11 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
As well as Jim Weber's site at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I01935
CE Wood
On Aug 13, 12:11 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
Thank you.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideashttp://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Simon de Montforts?
Yes.
It takes some beating of on-line sources against each other.
DSH
-----------------------------------
"CE Wood" <wood_ce@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1187037520.643968.174470@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
See both the Roglo database at
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=121577
As well as Jim Weber's site at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I01935
CE Wood
On Aug 13, 12:11 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
It takes some beating of on-line sources against each other.
DSH
-----------------------------------
"CE Wood" <wood_ce@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1187037520.643968.174470@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
See both the Roglo database at
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=121577
As well as Jim Weber's site at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I01935
CE Wood
On Aug 13, 12:11 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
Thank you.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideashttp://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Gjest
Re: Simon de Montforts?
On 13 Aug., 21:27, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Dana
The Hull database, as has been pointed out here many times in the
past, was set up to test database usage; the fact that it purports to
contain information about royalty is a by-product. It is not designed
to be a reference source for genealogy. It is riddled with errors and
it does not cite its sources.
Serious researchers should therefore stay well clear of it.
If you wish to try a website, you could do worse than Leo van de Pas's
at http://www.genealogics.org, which allows for a "person search" at the top
left of the home-page. It has the major advantage of citing its
sources, so you can check them. Many of them will necessarily be
secondary in nature, but they may point you towards the primary
sources.
Best methodology, as you will probably appreciate, it to use primary
sources, and to be able to cite them. Failing this, *reliable*
secondary sources or large caveats!
If you are fortunate, someone with much greater expertise in this time
period - such as Peter Stewart - may be able to provide some primary
details for you.
Kind regards, Michael
Check this site...
http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/catalog.html
Many of your questions will be answered -- but not all.
It's stronger on British nobility and royalty.
Dana
The Hull database, as has been pointed out here many times in the
past, was set up to test database usage; the fact that it purports to
contain information about royalty is a by-product. It is not designed
to be a reference source for genealogy. It is riddled with errors and
it does not cite its sources.
Serious researchers should therefore stay well clear of it.
If you wish to try a website, you could do worse than Leo van de Pas's
at http://www.genealogics.org, which allows for a "person search" at the top
left of the home-page. It has the major advantage of citing its
sources, so you can check them. Many of them will necessarily be
secondary in nature, but they may point you towards the primary
sources.
Best methodology, as you will probably appreciate, it to use primary
sources, and to be able to cite them. Failing this, *reliable*
secondary sources or large caveats!
If you are fortunate, someone with much greater expertise in this time
period - such as Peter Stewart - may be able to provide some primary
details for you.
Kind regards, Michael
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Simon de Montforts?
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:212wi.77819$g86.32188@newsfe14.lga...
The birthdates of all these men are unknown.
Simon I died in the same year as William the Conqueror according to Orderic,
so in 1087 or possibly early in 1088. The date is not known - ES III/4 table
642 gives the same date (25 September) for both Simon I and Simon II, but
this correctly refers to the latter.
Several obituaries record a man of this name on 24 or 25 September. The
earlier date is given in two records, the latter in one where he is called
"Symon de Monteforti" without title, adding a note of a donation that was
given in the time of Simon II. In the 24 September entries he is called
"Simon, miles de Monteforti" in one but "Simon, comes Montisfortis" in the
other. This is evidently a posthumous promotion to the rank of his brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. They were both sons of Simon I by Agnes
of Evreux. Simon II died after 1104.
Simon III died on 11 (one record), 12 (three records, but one of them
transposed into February and another into May by scribal errors) or 13 (one
record) March. This was evidently in 1181 (new style), see CP VII Appendix
D, p. 715 note (h) for discussion of this.
Peter Stewart
news:212wi.77819$g86.32188@newsfe14.lga...
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
The birthdates of all these men are unknown.
Simon I died in the same year as William the Conqueror according to Orderic,
so in 1087 or possibly early in 1088. The date is not known - ES III/4 table
642 gives the same date (25 September) for both Simon I and Simon II, but
this correctly refers to the latter.
Several obituaries record a man of this name on 24 or 25 September. The
earlier date is given in two records, the latter in one where he is called
"Symon de Monteforti" without title, adding a note of a donation that was
given in the time of Simon II. In the 24 September entries he is called
"Simon, miles de Monteforti" in one but "Simon, comes Montisfortis" in the
other. This is evidently a posthumous promotion to the rank of his brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. They were both sons of Simon I by Agnes
of Evreux. Simon II died after 1104.
Simon III died on 11 (one record), 12 (three records, but one of them
transposed into February and another into May by scribal errors) or 13 (one
record) March. This was evidently in 1181 (new style), see CP VII Appendix
D, p. 715 note (h) for discussion of this.
Peter Stewart
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Simon de Montforts?
This thread and the recent "Matilda, wife of Simon de Montfort, Count of
Evreux" from May 2007 have got me scratching my head regarding the
conflicting numbering and relations between these various Simons.
Leo van de Pas' database shows the following reconstruction, which I
have understood to be the current status-
1. Simon I de Montfort d. c 1087/Agnes d'Evreux
2. Amaury de Montfort d. c 1137/Agnes de Garlande
3. Simon III? de Montfort/Maud (Matilda) N.
4. Simon IV? de Montfort d. 1181/Amicie de Beaumont
5. Simon V? de Montfort d. 1218/Alix or Amicie de Montmorency
Peter Stewart's reply below identifies my #1 as Simon I, but his Simon
III would appear to be my #4, which Leo has numbered Simon IV. Peter's
Simon II (who died after 1104) seems to have been the brother of #2
Amaury, based on his information below. However the aforementioned
"Matilda" thread, indicates Matilda's husband was the brother of an
Amaury/Amalric both apparently sons of #2 above. (As an aside, the roglo
database combines #3 and 4 as Simon III with two marriages).
I feel like I've just written a logic problem, but if anyone can make
sense of this, please help.
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
Evreux" from May 2007 have got me scratching my head regarding the
conflicting numbering and relations between these various Simons.
Leo van de Pas' database shows the following reconstruction, which I
have understood to be the current status-
1. Simon I de Montfort d. c 1087/Agnes d'Evreux
2. Amaury de Montfort d. c 1137/Agnes de Garlande
3. Simon III? de Montfort/Maud (Matilda) N.
4. Simon IV? de Montfort d. 1181/Amicie de Beaumont
5. Simon V? de Montfort d. 1218/Alix or Amicie de Montmorency
Peter Stewart's reply below identifies my #1 as Simon I, but his Simon
III would appear to be my #4, which Leo has numbered Simon IV. Peter's
Simon II (who died after 1104) seems to have been the brother of #2
Amaury, based on his information below. However the aforementioned
"Matilda" thread, indicates Matilda's husband was the brother of an
Amaury/Amalric both apparently sons of #2 above. (As an aside, the roglo
database combines #3 and 4 as Simon III with two marriages).
I feel like I've just written a logic problem, but if anyone can make
sense of this, please help.
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:212wi.77819$g86.32188@newsfe14.lga...
Can anyone give me birth and death dates for the first three Simon de
Montforts? Also, is Simon II the son of Simon I and Agnes d'Eveux?
The birthdates of all these men are unknown.
Simon I died in the same year as William the Conqueror according to Orderic,
so in 1087 or possibly early in 1088. The date is not known - ES III/4 table
642 gives the same date (25 September) for both Simon I and Simon II, but
this correctly refers to the latter.
Several obituaries record a man of this name on 24 or 25 September. The
earlier date is given in two records, the latter in one where he is called
"Symon de Monteforti" without title, adding a note of a donation that was
given in the time of Simon II. In the 24 September entries he is called
"Simon, miles de Monteforti" in one but "Simon, comes Montisfortis" in the
other. This is evidently a posthumous promotion to the rank of his brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. They were both sons of Simon I by Agnes
of Evreux. Simon II died after 1104.
Simon III died on 11 (one record), 12 (three records, but one of them
transposed into February and another into May by scribal errors) or 13 (one
record) March. This was evidently in 1181 (new style), see CP VII Appendix
D, p. 715 note (h) for discussion of this.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Simon de Montforts?
I suppose the ordinals for these Simons may be different in various
secondary works and databases. The numbering I gave was from their
succession as seigneurs of Montfort, as below:
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.697.1187319344.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Agnes was his third wife, he was first married to Isabelle daughter of Hugo
Bardoul, then to a lady of unknown name, then to Agnes.
This Agnes was a second wife - Amaury had married first Richelda of Hainaut,
daughter of Count Balduin II by Ida of Louvain. My Simon II was elder
brother and imemdiate predecessor as seigneur to this Amaury.
This agrees with my previous message. Simon III had en elder brother Amaury
(died 1140) who was seigneur of Montfort & count of Evreux before him.
Again agreed - this Simon (known as the Bald) also had an elder brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. Simon IV was seigneur of Montfort &
count of Rochefort.
Also agreed - this Simon was called count of Montfort as well as Rochefort,
and became earl of Leicester, then later count of Toulouse & duke of
Narbonne, etc.
Peter Stewart
secondary works and databases. The numbering I gave was from their
succession as seigneurs of Montfort, as below:
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.697.1187319344.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
This thread and the recent "Matilda, wife of Simon de Montfort, Count of
Evreux" from May 2007 have got me scratching my head regarding the
conflicting numbering and relations between these various Simons.
Leo van de Pas' database shows the following reconstruction, which I have
understood to be the current status-
1. Simon I de Montfort d. c 1087/Agnes d'Evreux
Agnes was his third wife, he was first married to Isabelle daughter of Hugo
Bardoul, then to a lady of unknown name, then to Agnes.
2. Amaury de Montfort d. c 1137/Agnes de Garlande
This Agnes was a second wife - Amaury had married first Richelda of Hainaut,
daughter of Count Balduin II by Ida of Louvain. My Simon II was elder
brother and imemdiate predecessor as seigneur to this Amaury.
3. Simon III? de Montfort/Maud (Matilda) N.
This agrees with my previous message. Simon III had en elder brother Amaury
(died 1140) who was seigneur of Montfort & count of Evreux before him.
4. Simon IV? de Montfort d. 1181/Amicie de Beaumont
Again agreed - this Simon (known as the Bald) also had an elder brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. Simon IV was seigneur of Montfort &
count of Rochefort.
5. Simon V? de Montfort d. 1218/Alix or Amicie de Montmorency
Also agreed - this Simon was called count of Montfort as well as Rochefort,
and became earl of Leicester, then later count of Toulouse & duke of
Narbonne, etc.
Peter Stewart
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Simon de Montforts?
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
I suppose the ordinals for these Simons may be different in various
secondary works and databases. The numbering I gave was from their
succession as seigneurs of Montfort, as below:
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.697.1187319344.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
This thread and the recent "Matilda, wife of Simon de Montfort, Count of
Evreux" from May 2007 have got me scratching my head regarding the
conflicting numbering and relations between these various Simons.
Leo van de Pas' database shows the following reconstruction, which I have
understood to be the current status-
1. Simon I de Montfort d. c 1087/Agnes d'Evreux
Agnes was his third wife, he was first married to Isabelle daughter of Hugo
Bardoul, then to a lady of unknown name, then to Agnes.
2. Amaury de Montfort d. c 1137/Agnes de Garlande
This Agnes was a second wife - Amaury had married first Richelda of Hainaut,
daughter of Count Balduin II by Ida of Louvain. My Simon II was elder
brother and imemdiate predecessor as seigneur to this Amaury.
3. Simon III? de Montfort/Maud (Matilda) N.
This agrees with my previous message. Simon III had en elder brother Amaury
(died 1140) who was seigneur of Montfort & count of Evreux before him.
4. Simon IV? de Montfort d. 1181/Amicie de Beaumont
Again agreed - this Simon (known as the Bald) also had an elder brother
Amaury, who became count of Evreux. Simon IV was seigneur of Montfort &
count of Rochefort.
5. Simon V? de Montfort d. 1218/Alix or Amicie de Montmorency
Also agreed - this Simon was called count of Montfort as well as Rochefort,
and became earl of Leicester, then later count of Toulouse & duke of
Narbonne, etc.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Simon de Montforts?
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.699.1187322989.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I hadn't noticed this before - Simon III died on 11,12 or 13 March in 1181,
as in my previous post, and his son Simon IV on 18 July "before the year
1188" according to CP, but also in 1181 according to other secondary sources
(I'm not sure if this is correct, I will post again if I find out).
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.699.1187322989.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means Simon
II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only discrepancy
with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who died in 1181, and
Simon III-- an unknown date?
I hadn't noticed this before - Simon III died on 11,12 or 13 March in 1181,
as in my previous post, and his son Simon IV on 18 July "before the year
1188" according to CP, but also in 1181 according to other secondary sources
(I'm not sure if this is correct, I will post again if I find out).
Peter Stewart
-
WJhonson
Re: Simon de Montforts?
<<In a message dated 08/16/07 20:56:33 Pacific Standard Time, leblancr@mts.net writes:
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc >>
----------------
Roger I do not believe we know what year this Simon died.
He died on 25 Sep "sometime after 1104"
He died d.s.p.m. or d.s.p. as his heir to the Seigneurie of Montfort was his brother.
Will Johnson
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc >>
----------------
Roger I do not believe we know what year this Simon died.
He died on 25 Sep "sometime after 1104"
He died d.s.p.m. or d.s.p. as his heir to the Seigneurie of Montfort was his brother.
Will Johnson
-
WJhonson
Re: Simon de Montforts?
<<In a message dated 08/16/07 20:56:33 Pacific Standard Time, leblancr@mts.net writes:
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc >>
----------------
Roger I do not believe we know what year this Simon died.
He died on 25 Sep "sometime after 1104"
He died d.s.p.m. or d.s.p. as his heir to the Seigneurie of Montfort was his brother.
Will Johnson
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc >>
----------------
Roger I do not believe we know what year this Simon died.
He died on 25 Sep "sometime after 1104"
He died d.s.p.m. or d.s.p. as his heir to the Seigneurie of Montfort was his brother.
Will Johnson
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Simon de Montforts?
Thank you Will. Looking again at Peter's original posting I see that he
also had written after 1104. My mistake.
Roger LeBlanc
WJhonson wrote:
also had written after 1104. My mistake.
Roger LeBlanc
WJhonson wrote:
In a message dated 08/16/07 20:56:33 Pacific Standard Time, leblancr@mts.net writes:
Thank you for the reply Peter. It is really very helpful. This means
Simon II (d. 1104) is not in the direct ancestral line. The only
discrepancy with your original post then is that it was Simon IV who
died in 1181, and Simon III-- an unknown date?
Roger LeBlanc
----------------
Roger I do not believe we know what year this Simon died.
He died on 25 Sep "sometime after 1104"
He died d.s.p.m. or d.s.p. as his heir to the Seigneurie of Montfort was his brother.
Will Johnson