Lady Godiva

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Leo van de Pas

Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 12 aug 2007 10:24:13

Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.

Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son

------------------------------------
I found a reference indicating that there is a reputed line of descend from Lady Godiva. Somehow the link has to be entered somewhere amongst the following line:

Harold de Vaux, born about 1065
/
Hubert de Vaux, born about 1091, married Grace/Grecia
/
Robert de Vaux, married Ada d'Engaine
/
Sir Herbert de Vaux, married Grace
/
Beatrice de Valle/de Vaux, married Sir William de Briwere
/
Grace de Briwere, married Reginald de Braose.

The indication I found was that Grace de Briwere descended via her mother from Lady Godiva.

Would anyone know how that link clould go?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 12 aug 2007 16:05:02

I have the final son named Burgheard. Don't remember the source from which I
copied this. HTH.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.354.1186910677.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of
Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married
Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar,
the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.

Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her
1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son

------------------------------------
I found a reference indicating that there is a reputed line of descend from
Lady Godiva. Somehow the link has to be entered somewhere amongst the
following line:

Harold de Vaux, born about 1065
/
Hubert de Vaux, born about 1091, married Grace/Grecia
/
Robert de Vaux, married Ada d'Engaine
/
Sir Herbert de Vaux, married Grace
/
Beatrice de Valle/de Vaux, married Sir William de Briwere
/
Grace de Briwere, married Reginald de Braose.

The indication I found was that Grace de Briwere descended via her mother
from Lady Godiva.

Would anyone know how that link clould go?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 12 aug 2007 16:34:58

Apropos of the marriage of Ealdgyth and Harold II Godwinsson, does anyone
know if Ulf Godwinsson is the son of Ealdgyth, or of Eadgyth Swan-neck,
Harold's other partner? The source I had was confused on this point. Thank
you.

Dana


"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.354.1186910677.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of

Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married
Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar,
the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.

Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her
1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son

------------------------------------
I found a reference indicating that there is a reputed line of descend from
Lady Godiva. Somehow the link has to be entered somewhere amongst the
following line:

Harold de Vaux, born about 1065
/
Hubert de Vaux, born about 1091, married Grace/Grecia
/
Robert de Vaux, married Ada d'Engaine
/
Sir Herbert de Vaux, married Grace
/
Beatrice de Valle/de Vaux, married Sir William de Briwere
/
Grace de Briwere, married Reginald de Braose.

The indication I found was that Grace de Briwere descended via her mother
from Lady Godiva.

Would anyone know how that link clould go?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 aug 2007 16:44:27

Ulf is usually credited to Eadgyth Swan-neck.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:uMFvi.204483$LE1.122016@newsfe13.lga...

Apropos of the marriage of Ealdgyth and Harold II Godwinsson, does anyone
know if Ulf Godwinsson is the son of Ealdgyth, or of Eadgyth Swan-neck,
Harold's other partner? The source I had was confused on this point. Thank
you.

Dana

CE Wood

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av CE Wood » 12 aug 2007 18:53:33

I trace it through Reginald de Braose, Grace's husband:

Lady GODIVA & LEOFRIC III
|
|
AELFGAR & AELFGIFU
|
|
AELDGYTH AElfgarsdottir & GRUFFYDD ap Llywelyn
|
|
NESTA ferch Gruffydd & OSBERN FitzRichard
|
|
NESTA ferch Osbern & BERNARD de Neufmarché
|
|
SYBIL de Neufmarché & MILES FitzWalter
|
|
BERTA FitzMiles of Gloucester & WILLIAM II de Braose
|
|
WILLIAM III de Braose & MATILDA de St. Valéry Lady of la Haie
|
|
REGINALD de Braose Lord of Abergavenny & GRACIA de Briwere


CE Wood


On Aug 12, 2:24 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.

Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son

------------------------------------
I found a reference indicating that there is a reputed line of descend from Lady Godiva. Somehow the link has to be entered somewhere amongst the following line:

Harold de Vaux, born about 1065
/
Hubert de Vaux, born about 1091, married Grace/Grecia
/
Robert de Vaux, married Ada d'Engaine
/
Sir Herbert de Vaux, married Grace
/
Beatrice de Valle/de Vaux, married Sir William de Briwere
/
Grace de Briwere, married Reginald de Braose.

The indication I found was that Grace de Briwere descended via her mother from Lady Godiva.

Would anyone know how that link clould go?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Hovite

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Hovite » 16 aug 2007 00:04:56

The above link however, on searches for Godiva, Godgifu, Aelfgar and Leofric turned up nothing on the family. Perhaps there's another way to search it?

It isn't finished yet, but Godgifu and Leofric are present. You need
this index page:

http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html

Then (for example) click on G, then select Godgifu, then "Godgifu 2 -
e/m xi (Wife of Leofric 49, fl. 1033x1038)"

One can only hope that the site will improve

Another source:

http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/old/pase/Leve ... ml#Godgifu

Hovite

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Hovite » 16 aug 2007 00:37:31

On Aug 16, 12:16 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/15/07 16:05:17 Pacific Standard Time, paulvhe...@gmail.com writes:http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html

------------
Thanks Paul, now it makes perfect sense.
On this particular case, I note that the Pase site says that Charter S1223 states "Leofric comes and Godgifu his wife" (dating to 1033x1038) or at least they say this in the index. But then in the description they merely say "Leofric comes to Evesham..."

Frustrating!
Maybe there is some place where this charter is actually laid out in full?

The original is in the British Library and it has been printed four
times, once by Kemble. Notice that it is regarded as of "authentic
basis" or "possibly authentic basis", which suggests that although it
may been altered somewhat, at least it isn't a blatant forgery. The
charters are being republished in "approximately 30 volumes", but
progress is slow, more details here:

http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/chartwww/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 aug 2007 01:58:07

Wednesday, 15 August, 2007


Dear Will, Leo, Todd, Terry, et al.,

In the listing provided in Domesday Book (1086) of the lands
of the Church of Coventry, in Stanley Hundred, there is a
description of the land of Binley. The text states in part,
"Aldgid, the wife of Grifin, held this land. The Abbey bought it
of Osbern the son of Richard " [1].

As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.

Chronologically, these generations appear to provide no
problem. Assuming Nest, daughter of Gruffydd (evidently by
Ealdgyth) was born say 1060, and married to Osbern fitz Richard
say 1075-1080, the gift of part of her lands in or before 1086
(possibly after her death - ?) by Osbern to the Abbey would
surely work. Nest, daughter of Osbern fitz Richard by his wife
Nest, born say 1075-1085 (as well as her siblings Hugh and
Cecilia), could well have then been married to Bernard de
Neufmarche and producing issue (at least a daughter Sibyl) say
1095-1105.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] William Reades, trans. Domesday Book, for the County of
Warwick (Coventry: W. Reader, 1835), p. 14:

' Ipsa eccl'a ten' BILVEIE. Ibi sunt iii hidae
T'ra e' viii car'. In d'nio e' una car' et iiii serui et x uill'i et
vi
bord' eu' v car'. Ibi viii ac' p'ti. Silua dimid' leu'u l'g' et una
q'rent' lat'. T. R. E. et modo ual' LX solid'.
Hanc tra' tenuit. Aldgid uxor Grifin. Hanc abb' emit ab 0' filio
Ricardi.
Ipsa eccl'a ten' in CONDONE iii virg' t'rae. T'ra e' ii car'.
Ibi sunt iiii uill'i et vi bord' eu' ii car' et i fiemo. Silua iii
q'r'
et xxx p'tic' l'g' et iii q'rent' lat'. Valuit et ual' xx solid'.'


This can be found online courtesy of Googlebooks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zQMIAA ... ISO-8859-1




* John P. Ravilious






On Aug 15, 8:11?pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/15/07 17:04:19 Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
You will be enlightened to know that this source is *also* online herehttp://books.google.com/books?id=gWUNAAAAIAAJ

"The History of the Norman Conquest of England: Its Causes and its Results", by Edward Augustus Freeman
---------------------
Will excellent find, but may I slightly correct you, the above link is only *one* of the volumes.

Freeman, an "exceedingly boring individual at cocktail parties", wrote his History over many volumes. Many.... Many.
At any rate see herehttp://books.google.com/books?q=edi ... lXJ&id=5...

Will Johnson

Hovite

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Hovite » 16 aug 2007 07:59:46

5. ? Lucia, married Ivo Taillebois.

This daughter was obviously regarded as doubtful even by Searle, and
the sources he cited do not inspire confidence: "Ingulf", which
apparently means "Croylandensis historia Ingulphus", and "EAF ij 682",
which seems to mean "E A Freeman: The history of the Norman Conquest,
volume 2, 3rd edition, 1877, page 682". Neither of those are of any
value.

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 16 aug 2007 12:16:07

On Aug 15, 11:59 pm, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
5. ? Lucia, married Ivo Taillebois.

This daughter was obviously regarded as doubtful even by Searle, and
the sources he cited do not inspire confidence: "Ingulf", which
apparently means "Croylandensis historia Ingulphus", and "EAF ij 682",
which seems to mean "E A Freeman: The history of the Norman Conquest,
volume 2, 3rd edition, 1877, page 682". Neither of those are of any
value.

Much, much ink has been spilled over Lucy, which is usually a good
indication that the primary documents are not up to the task.

taf

John P. Ravilious

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 aug 2007 17:21:17

Dear Will,

In addition to Orderic Vitalis, we also have a statement by
William of Jumièges concerning the parentage and marriages of
Ealdyth. E. A. Freeman quoted William of Jumièges (vii. 31) in
stating that Harold Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl
Al[f]gar, after the death of her 1st husband Gruffydd:

" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [1]

As I previously mentioned, the account of Orderic has noticeable
errors mixed in with facts. I'm not sure whether he drew part of his
version of the career of Ealdgyth from William of Jumièges, but
perhaps Todd and/or others would care to weigh in on the matter of his
reliability.

Cheers,


John



[1] E. A. Freeman, The History of the Norman Conquest of England
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1870), II:659




On Aug 15, 9:25 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3 writes:
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.

----------------------------------------

Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.

My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to a woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married Griffin.

So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.

I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd find the primary one instead of finding silence.

Will Johnson

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 17 aug 2007 02:24:58

John,

Thanks for your note - it helped steer me the right way. Here's some further
information and thoughts.

"Florence of Worcester" notes that in 1071, Aelfgar's sons Earl Edwin and
Earl Morcar revolted against King William, with Earl Edwin being killed by
his own people. http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=177

Subsequent to that event, about 1072 the King began 'dismantling' Earl
Edwin's properties - which were extensive and largely in Richmond - and
granted them to Count Alan 'the Red', who is believed to have accompanied
William in the invasion. See a discussion of this in Paul Dalton's
'Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154' at
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_G ... Q#PPA67,M1.

As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties. A reasonable (but not perfect) facsimile
of Count Alan's dates and titles can be found in Doyle's "Official Baronage
of England" at http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105. He
also appears in a chart in CP X, page 781, which shows him as 'Lord of
Richmond'. CP apparently states (not seen) he dsp. 4 Aug 1089, a late enough
date for his extensive land grants from King William to be shown in the
Domesday book .

I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red' establishes a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's widow in
1066 since the Earl was by then dead (abt 1062 per DNB) - passed to their
son, Earl Edwin, sometime before 1071. The Domesday property record would
thus not only confirm the name of Edwin's father - Earl Aelfgar - but
confirm that the name of his mother (and Aelfgar's wife) was
Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation can be verified -
would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the names Ealdgyth and
Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in turn would lend
increased support to the later secondary sources which claim that Aelfgar's
wife m. (or at least 'had a relationship with') (2), King Harold II who d.
in the Battle of Hastings.

I apologize for not having access to the primary source to confirm all the
details and spellings in the Domesday record as provided by UK Archives.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Dear Terry,

Re: the identification of Count Alan, he was one of the more
important tenants in chief of King William at the time of Domesday
Book (1086). He was a younger son of Eudo, count of Penthievre (also
designated 'count of Brittany'). He has been identified as one of the
few certain participants in the Battle of Hastings (or Senlac Hill as
your prefer). See Complete Peerage XII, Appendix L, p. 48.

Count Alan, also called 'Alan the Red', has no known
descendants. However, his younger brother and heir Stephen, lord of
the honour of Richmond (d. 21 Apr 1135) has myriad descendants,
including Ela of Salisbury (countess of Salisbury, wife of William
Longespee)), the Dukes of Brittany (from 1356 on), the Mowbray and
Howard Dukes of Norfolk, and far too many others to contemplate.

Cheers,

John



On Aug 16, 5:41 pm, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Will,

I purchased another Domesday record, for Cambridgeshire, hoping it might
have more insight. The primary source summarized, per UK archives, would
be
Great Domesday Book; Folio
194R.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... sult.asp...

The record was in pdf format which I printed but didn't save (dumb!), so
I
will summarize and retype what seems most important. I cannot vouch for
the
quality of the transcription or translation from Latin.

Essentially everything on the page had once been owned by Eadgifu (name
mentioned 18 times, including once as "Eadgifu the Fair"). Some of her
ownership is noted as TRE (from Edward's time), but one suspects it all
might have been. But at Domesday time, almost all the land was held by
"Count Alan" (noted to have 10 burgesses in Cambridgeshire). The
properties
are identified as in Linton, Little Linton, Whittlesford Hundred,
Thriplow
Hundred, Arringford Hundred and Bassingbourn. When Eadgifu owned it, she
held it by various means including providing 8 watchmen for the sheriff
and
5 cartage-dues. A total of 32 sokemen are listed (UK Archives defines
them
as "Freeman who nevertheless had to attend their lord's court." -
presumably
they're like sharecroppers). Some of the Sokemen were noted as
responsible
for providing the watchmen and cartage-dues.

The most interesting property is Bassingbourn where Earl Aelfgar is
named,
it also has a high property value:
"Count Alan himself holds 7 hides and 1 1/2 virgates in Bassignbourn.
There
is land for 18 ploughs. In demesne are 4 hides, and there are 5 ploughs,
and
there can be two more. There are 8 villans and 11 bordars and 10 cottars
with 11 ploughs. There are 3 slaves, and 2 mills rendering 20s, and
meadow
for 5 ploughs. In all it is worth 301; when received 261, and as much TRE
[i.e. same value in King Edward's time]. Eadgifu held this manor, and
there
were 10 sokemen, and 8 of them, men of Eadgifu, could sell their land,
but
the soke remained with her; and the other 2, the men of Earl Aelfgar,
provided 4 watchmen for the sheriff, and they themselves could sell their
land."

A preceding property in Arringford Hundred, is also of potential interest
because of the names :
"In Croydon Almaer holds 2 1/2 virgates under the count. There is land
for 6
oxen, and there are 6 oxen, with 1 border and 1 cottar. It is and was
worth
10s; TRE 15s. Godgifu [this is prob not Countess Godgifu, who seems
usually
identified as such] held this land under Eadgifu, and could depart. In
the
same vill Fulchei holds 1 virgate of land from the count. It is and was
worth 5s. Leofgifu [the nun?] held this land under Eadgifu, and could
depart."

Can anyone identify Count Alan or a possible relationship?

Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva

In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3
writes:
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.

----------------------------------------

Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.

My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to a
woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married
Griffin.

So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.

I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd
find
the primary one instead of finding silence.

Will Johnson

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TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 17 aug 2007 15:02:17

Excuse me.

The paragraph below should read :

I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red' establishes a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's
[daughter] in 1066 since both the Earl (abt 1062 per DNB) and Ealdgyth's
husband were dead. They then passed to [her] son, Earl Edwin, sometime
before 1071. The Domesday property record would thus not only confirm the
name of Edwin's [grand]father - Earl Aelfgar - but confirm that the name of
his mother was Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation
can be verified - would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the
names Ealdgyth and Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in
turn would lend increased support to the later secondary sources which claim
that Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's widow m. (or at least 'had a relationship with')
(2), King Harold II who d. in the Battle of Hastings.

Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


John,

Thanks for your note - it helped steer me the right way. Here's some
further
information and thoughts.

"Florence of Worcester" notes that in 1071, Aelfgar's sons Earl Edwin and
Earl Morcar revolted against King William, with Earl Edwin being killed by
his own people. http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=177

Subsequent to that event, about 1072 the King began 'dismantling' Earl
Edwin's properties - which were extensive and largely in Richmond - and
granted them to Count Alan 'the Red', who is believed to have accompanied
William in the invasion. See a discussion of this in Paul Dalton's
'Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154' at
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_G ... Q#PPA67,M1.

As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties. A reasonable (but not perfect) facsimile
of Count Alan's dates and titles can be found in Doyle's "Official
Baronage
of England" at http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105. He
also appears in a chart in CP X, page 781, which shows him as 'Lord of
Richmond'. CP apparently states (not seen) he dsp. 4 Aug 1089, a late
enough
date for his extensive land grants from King William to be shown in the
Domesday book .

I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red' establishes
a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's widow
in
1066 since the Earl was by then dead (abt 1062 per DNB) - passed to their
son, Earl Edwin, sometime before 1071. The Domesday property record would
thus not only confirm the name of Edwin's father - Earl Aelfgar - but
confirm that the name of his mother (and Aelfgar's wife) was
Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation can be
verified -
would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the names Ealdgyth
and
Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in turn would lend
increased support to the later secondary sources which claim that
Aelfgar's
wife m. (or at least 'had a relationship with') (2), King Harold II who d.
in the Battle of Hastings.

I apologize for not having access to the primary source to confirm all the
details and spellings in the Domesday record as provided by UK Archives.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Dear Terry,

Re: the identification of Count Alan, he was one of the more
important tenants in chief of King William at the time of Domesday
Book (1086). He was a younger son of Eudo, count of Penthievre (also
designated 'count of Brittany'). He has been identified as one of the
few certain participants in the Battle of Hastings (or Senlac Hill as
your prefer). See Complete Peerage XII, Appendix L, p. 48.

Count Alan, also called 'Alan the Red', has no known
descendants. However, his younger brother and heir Stephen, lord of
the honour of Richmond (d. 21 Apr 1135) has myriad descendants,
including Ela of Salisbury (countess of Salisbury, wife of William
Longespee)), the Dukes of Brittany (from 1356 on), the Mowbray and
Howard Dukes of Norfolk, and far too many others to contemplate.

Cheers,

John



On Aug 16, 5:41 pm, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Will,

I purchased another Domesday record, for Cambridgeshire, hoping it might
have more insight. The primary source summarized, per UK archives, would
be
Great Domesday Book; Folio
194R.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... sult.asp...

The record was in pdf format which I printed but didn't save (dumb!), so
I
will summarize and retype what seems most important. I cannot vouch for
the
quality of the transcription or translation from Latin.

Essentially everything on the page had once been owned by Eadgifu (name
mentioned 18 times, including once as "Eadgifu the Fair"). Some of her
ownership is noted as TRE (from Edward's time), but one suspects it all
might have been. But at Domesday time, almost all the land was held by
"Count Alan" (noted to have 10 burgesses in Cambridgeshire). The
properties
are identified as in Linton, Little Linton, Whittlesford Hundred,
Thriplow
Hundred, Arringford Hundred and Bassingbourn. When Eadgifu owned it, she
held it by various means including providing 8 watchmen for the sheriff
and
5 cartage-dues. A total of 32 sokemen are listed (UK Archives defines
them
as "Freeman who nevertheless had to attend their lord's court." -
presumably
they're like sharecroppers). Some of the Sokemen were noted as
responsible
for providing the watchmen and cartage-dues.

The most interesting property is Bassingbourn where Earl Aelfgar is
named,
it also has a high property value:
"Count Alan himself holds 7 hides and 1 1/2 virgates in Bassignbourn.
There
is land for 18 ploughs. In demesne are 4 hides, and there are 5 ploughs,
and
there can be two more. There are 8 villans and 11 bordars and 10 cottars
with 11 ploughs. There are 3 slaves, and 2 mills rendering 20s, and
meadow
for 5 ploughs. In all it is worth 301; when received 261, and as much
TRE
[i.e. same value in King Edward's time]. Eadgifu held this manor, and
there
were 10 sokemen, and 8 of them, men of Eadgifu, could sell their land,
but
the soke remained with her; and the other 2, the men of Earl Aelfgar,
provided 4 watchmen for the sheriff, and they themselves could sell
their
land."

A preceding property in Arringford Hundred, is also of potential
interest
because of the names :
"In Croydon Almaer holds 2 1/2 virgates under the count. There is land
for 6
oxen, and there are 6 oxen, with 1 border and 1 cottar. It is and was
worth
10s; TRE 15s. Godgifu [this is prob not Countess Godgifu, who seems
usually
identified as such] held this land under Eadgifu, and could depart. In
the
same vill Fulchei holds 1 virgate of land from the count. It is and was
worth 5s. Leofgifu [the nun?] held this land under Eadgifu, and could
depart."

Can anyone identify Count Alan or a possible relationship?

Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva

In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3
writes:
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.

----------------------------------------

Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.

My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to
a
woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married
Griffin.

So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.

I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd
find
the primary one instead of finding silence.

Will Johnson

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TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 18 aug 2007 17:52:30

Will,

Your initiative to document what is certain and what is improbable
aboutGodgifu and her alleged descendants is of great value to all of us -
thank
you.

Here are 2 items to add to the 'Chronicles of Florence' list of primary
source citations on your 'Aelfgar' page. These citations prove that Aelfgar
had a dau named Aldgitha/Eldgitha/Ealdgyth, and that
Aldgitha/Eldgitha/Ealdgyth m. King Harold.

p. 170 "Harold reigned nine months and as many days. The earls Edwin and
Morcar, who had withdrawn with their troops from the battle on hearing that
he was dead, went off to London, and sent off their sister, queen Elgitha,
to Chester . .
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA170,M1

p. 456 "By his choice and gift, he [Edward King of England] was succeeded by
earl Harold, son of Godwin earl of Wessex, by Gytha, sister of Sweyn, king
of Denmark, father of St. Canute, the martyr. He [king Harold] had a son
named Harold by his queen Aldgitha, daughter of earl Algar: the same year he
fell in battle with William earl of Normandy, who succeeded him in the
kingdom."
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA456,M1

Ealdgyth's marriage to Gruffydd ap Llywelyn is proven by Ravilious's 'aldgid
uxor grifin' Domesday record - a primary source. John Ravilious' below post
would seem to prove that Aldgyth and Ealdgyth were the same person. See also
the Freeman 'Conquest' link below where he translates Domesday's Latin as
stating that Ealdgyth the widow had d. bef 1086. This is consistent w
Osbern's inheriting her property bef 1086. Here also is her 1885 DNB entry:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ECsJAA ... #PPA245,M1.

Your great http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... es#England
website let me search the index of Freeman's 'History of the Norman
Conquest' and find his 4 page genealogy from Leofric through the Nesta who
m. Bernard Neufmarche (albeit missing the Osbern/Nesta generation). Leo
might find Freeman's discussion interesting:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-4kJAA ... #PPA658,M1.

Freeman made much use of Domesday records, and provides answers to my 17 Aug
post questions about a Cambridgeshire record. He identifies 'Eadgifu' as
Aelfgar's widow (dying bef the 1086 census). He favors 'Eadgifu the fair' as
Eadgyth 'swan neck' Swannesha, but notes others have her as Aelfgar's widow.

Since Freeman, AR and others have apparently discovered no primary records
which show Godgifu's date of birth or date of marriage to Leofric, it seems
unlikely we will. But I also have not found any primary records which prove
Leofric had a first wife, or that support the view (myth?) that Godgifu was
previously married. Absent those, we are left with 2 primary source
statements - earl Leofric had a wife named Godgifu, and earl Leofric had
earl Aelfgar as a son. While these alone do not prove Godgifu was Aelfgar's
mother, the probabilities would seem to greatly favor Godgifu over any
unproven first wife or first husband theories. Consistent with this view,
and presuming a more reasonable birthdate for Ealdgyth of abt 1040, I would
like to suggest for group consideration that Godgifu's birthdate was "prob
abt 1000", rather than the AR Line 176A-3 est. of "prob abt 1010".

Perhaps you or others would conclude differently or have additional records
to contradict this.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Dear Will,

In addition to Orderic Vitalis, we also have a statement by
William of Jumièges concerning the parentage and marriages of
Ealdyth. E. A. Freeman quoted William of Jumièges (vii. 31) in
stating that Harold Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl
Al[f]gar, after the death of her 1st husband Gruffydd:

" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [1]

As I previously mentioned, the account of Orderic has noticeable
errors mixed in with facts. I'm not sure whether he drew part of his
version of the career of Ealdgyth from William of Jumièges, but
perhaps Todd and/or others would care to weigh in on the matter of his
reliability.

Cheers,


John



[1] E. A. Freeman, The History of the Norman Conquest of England
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1870), II:659




On Aug 15, 9:25 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3
writes:
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.

----------------------------------------

Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.

My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to a
woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married Griffin.

So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.

I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd find
the primary one instead of finding silence.

Will Johnson





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 04:04:33

Are you certain of this placement?
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of Eudo.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties.

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 21 aug 2007 06:29:50

You are right, Stephen did have a son Alan 'the Black'. But he also had
brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited CP
XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
participants in the Battle of Hastings.

See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
Baronage',
http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAA ... #PPA105,M1. The
entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen. The
next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
Black'.

The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart at
CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Are you certain of this placement?
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
Eudo.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties.

-------------------------------
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Hovite

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Hovite » 21 aug 2007 07:52:56

On Aug 21, 4:04 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Are you certain of this placement?
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of Eudo.

Will Johnson

The is a pedigree in the Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 10, page 780.
The family contained an abundance of Alans.

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 21 aug 2007 17:50:01

The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.

The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because its
free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of death'
to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in letters to
Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates the letters to
1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's overlapping years. DNB
then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would follow that she recovered
from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union with earl Leofric was a
second marriage."

This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAA ... s=1#search
suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.

Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good dates
for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can the
marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
there is no proof the woman ever recovered?

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


You are right, Stephen did have a son Alan 'the Black'. But he also had
brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited CP
XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
participants in the Battle of Hastings.

See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
Baronage',
http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAA ... #PPA105,M1. The
entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen. The
next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
Black'.

The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart
at
CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Are you certain of this placement?
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
Eudo.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties.

-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 21:58:13

<<In a message dated 08/21/07 13:51:21 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can the
marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
there is no proof the woman ever recovered? >>

---------------
Not commenting on the rest, but I think the above is slippery. Silence is not a great source to use for a proof.

Will

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 23 aug 2007 16:04:07

Is there noone who can provide the the full (latin) description of the
'Godiva of Ely' in the Liber Eliensis record(s) noted in the below posting?

Godgifu's alleged 2nd marriage relies solely on the interpretation of this
record.

DNB 2004 (Vol 22 page 574) completely reverses its interpretation of the
1890 DNB Godgifu entry I had posted (which had suggested the Coventry and
Ely Godgifu's were identical). "She [Leofric's wife] must be distinguished
from three contemporaries of the same name : Godgifu, benefactress of Ely
Abbey in the 1020s; Godgifu, or Gode (d. c.1049), sister of Edward the
Confessor; and Godgifu, or Godgyth (d. bef 1055), wife of Earl Siward and
benefactress of Peterborough Abbey. The name is very common; critics of the
marriage of Henry I with the English princess Edith nicknamed the royal
couple 'Godric and Godgify'."

The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890.

The Liber Eliensis record is important enough that this group should reach
its own consensus.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.

The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because
its
free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of
death'
to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in letters to
Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates the letters
to
1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's overlapping years.
DNB
then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would follow that she recovered
from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union with earl Leofric was a
second marriage."

This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAA ... s=1#search
suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.

Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good
dates
for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can
the
marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
there is no proof the woman ever recovered?

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


You are right, Stephen did have a son Alan 'the Black'. But he also had
brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited
CP
XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
participants in the Battle of Hastings.

See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
Baronage',
http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAA ... #PPA105,M1. The
entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen.
The
next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
Black'.

The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart
at
CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Are you certain of this placement?
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
Eudo.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was
granted
some of his brother's properties.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 20:06:56

<<In a message dated 08/23/07 09:52:05 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890. >>

-------------------
Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the *grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units while she was evidently *yet* living.

Perhaps I shouldn't rush to judgement but what the heck, if DNB can do it....

"We only know of one wife to Leofric" is a false argument, as there are many many Earls for whom we don't know of *any* wife for them and yet they had children. Leofric may have been married many times for all we know.

At any rate, we know of at least a few charters which are apparently not spurious and which name her. They however aren't early enough to satisfactorily show that she was Leofric sole wife. And he apparently does not appear with a wife in any earlier charters to show that he did or didn't have any other one.

The Liber E would be a nice addition to my Godiva page should anyone find a copy online or elsewhere.

Will

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 23 aug 2007 21:09:52

On Aug 23, 12:06 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/23/07 09:52:05 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net writes:
The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890.

-------------------
Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the *grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units while she was evidently *yet* living.


They were commanding troops, but this should not be compared to
earlier or later times when such a command had to be earned and the
commanders older. Their appointments as Ealdormen were political - the
elder probably to appease a large political bloc that had been loyal
to his father and grandfather, the younger arising out of a sticky
political crisis, where an easily manipulated teen was just what the
local power-broakers wanted, it has been argued. The military command
just went along with the titles. They are thought to have been in the
range of 18 and 16. Certainly it is not unusual for the *grand*mother
of an 18-year-old to be *yet* living.

We discussed the situation of the Ealdormen in soc.hist.med a few
years ago. Due to political more than tactical concerns, Harold had
appointed teenagers to three of the Ealdordoms, and the other three
went to his immediate family members. With two of the three teenagers
being his brothers-in-law (the other reputed to be a kinsman), it was
an unprecedented centralization of political power, but at the expense
of military efficiency - he basically made the national power
structure as well as the military leadership an entirely personal
affair, and in so doing made conquest by decapitation the almost
inevitable consequence of a single military defeat.

taf

TJ Booth

Dates for Earl Aelfgar

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 24 aug 2007 01:35:37

Aelfgar the Earl's son ('Alfger þe Erles sune') appears as a witness in ASC
document S1531 (Will of Thurstan, son of Wine) dated (1043 x 1045) - noted
as probably authentic. Unless it can be shown this is not earl Leofric's
son, it would be the earliest record for him
http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1531. He is also a
witness as 'Aelfgar nobilis' in the 'probably authentic' S1019 (dated to
1049) which his father 'Leofric dux' as well as 'Godwine dux' and 'Harold
dux' also witnessed http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1019.
The 1049 date suggests that assigning him an earldom before then is probably
incorrect, and that Florence is probably right in dating the start of
Aelfgar's 'temporary' earlship to Sep 1051 (after Godwine had fled to
Flanders).

ASC document S1042 (20/24 May 1065) - noted as probably authentic - may be
the earliest mention of son Eadwine as earl - 'Eadwine dux'. This record
would also prove that Morcar had not yet been named to replace earl
Tostig/Tosti. http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1042. This
is consistent with ASC's statement that Morcar/Morkar was named earl 'the
eve of St. Simon's and St. Jude's mass' in 1965
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jEIAA ... #PPA438,M1, which
Florence dates to 28 Oct 1065
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA167,M1.

If one presumes that Aelfgar's sons Eadwine and Morcar were both of age when
acting as earls in 1065 (one being of course older), and that dau
Aeldgyth/Ealdgyth was a mother abt 1057, Aelfgar was prob a father and m. by
1040 if not earlier. If Aelfgar was the witness to the 1045 will (which
presumably required him to be of age), that suggests he was b. at least by
1025. He was d. bef 20/24 May 1065, when his son Eadwine had succeeded him
as earl.

If one instead accepts the suggestion that Eadwine and Morcar were mere 16
and 18 year-old teenagers when named earls (proof not seen), they would have
been b. as late as 1046 and 1048. This could move Aelfgar's marriage date
closer to 1045 dependant on the birthdate presumed for Ealdgyth. The
brothers would then be 17 and 19 when Florence writes that on the eve of 20
Sep 1066, "before the king's arrival, the two brothers, Edwin and Morcar, at
the head of a large army, fought a battle with the Norwegians on the
northern bank of the river Ouse, near York.". If they were indeed brash
young teenagers who wouldn't take advice from anyone, that could explain why
they lost that battle. 5 days later, Harold defeated the same enemy at
Stanford Bridge. Killing, among others, 'earl Tosti', the man whose earldom
of Northumbria had been granted Morcar les than a year earlier.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 24 aug 2007 04:38:00

On Aug 23, 1:24 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/23/07 13:10:38 Pacific Standard Time, farme...@interfold.com writes:
We discussed the situation of the Ealdormen in soc.hist.med a few
years ago. Due to political more than tactical concerns, Harold had
appointed teenagers to three of the Ealdordoms, and the other three
went to his immediate family members.
--------------------
Todd what is the proof that they were teenagers?

It came from a secondary source, and I now have to report abject
failure in trying to find anything primary - not just nothing primary
referring to the age of these Ealdormen, but practically nothing
primary at all - it was the first I looked at the local collection,
and I was certainly not impressed.

taf

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 24 aug 2007 10:29:54

Suggesting that DNB is 'trying desperately' to prove Godgifu was a mother
seems a bit strong. Until 'Liber Eliensis' and its primary sources can be
reviewed, we instead seem in the odd position of accepting DNB's 1890
statement that Godgifu was married before, while rejecting DNB's more recent
2004 statements out of hand.

Suggesting that Leofric's case is the same as Earls with no known wives is
comparing apples and oranges. If none of an earl's wife(s) and/or mistresses
are known, then the odds are 100% the mother of any of his children is
unknown. But Leofric did have a wife whose first name is known from many
primary sources, so his is a different case - unless of course it can be
proved that Godgifu married Leofric too late to have born his son.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois



----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


In a message dated 08/23/07 09:52:05 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890.

-------------------
Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove
that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the
*grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units
while she was evidently *yet* living.

Perhaps I shouldn't rush to judgement but what the heck, if DNB can do
it....

"We only know of one wife to Leofric" is a false argument, as there are
many many Earls for whom we don't know of *any* wife for them and yet they
had children. Leofric may have been married many times for all we know.

At any rate, we know of at least a few charters which are apparently not
spurious and which name her. They however aren't early enough to
satisfactorily show that she was Leofric sole wife. And he apparently
does not appear with a wife in any earlier charters to show that he did or
didn't have any other one.

The Liber E would be a nice addition to my Godiva page should anyone find
a copy online or elsewhere.

Will

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Peter Stewart

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 aug 2007 13:31:21

"TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.949.1187729439.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.

The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because
its free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of
death' to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in
letters to Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates
the letters to 1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's
overlapping years. DNB then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would
follow that she recovered from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union
with earl Leofric was a second marriage."

This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAA ... s=1#search
suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.

Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good
dates for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus?
Can the marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of
death', and there is no proof the woman ever recovered?

Having some free time to go into this thread further, Terry's post prompted
me to return to Ernest Blake's edition of _Liber Eliensis_ and check for the
details above, that are different from those in the passage given before as
the only mention of an earl's widow named Godiva.

However, the same woman with a devotion to the nun Ætheldreth is clearly the
subject of a second chapter, no. 83 in book 2 (page 151), as follows:

"Tunc restat edicere, qualiter fidelis Domini Godiva Ælfricum episcopum et
Leofricum abbatem de Ely per scripta salutavit et quod de salute sua eis
ostendere voluit. Sic quoque ait: O domini mei, ego infelix mulier, quamvis
circa salutem anime mee minus provide intenderim et tempus exitus mei
instat, cum adhuc licet operari, beatitudini vestre insinuo, quid ad dominam
meam sacratissimam virginem Æðeldreðam in Ely constituo fieri de bonis meis
atque concedo. Hoc est, terram de Berchinges, que mihi iuris est parentum
hereditate, illic perpetualiter impertior, ut apud eos mei iugiter memoria
sit."

(Then it remains to establish how the Lord's faithful Godiva greeted Bishop
Ælfric and Abbot Leofric of Ely in writing, and what she determined to lay
before them with regard to her salvation. She expressed herself thus: O my
lords, I, an unhappy woman, with however little prescience I have exerted
myself to save my soul, now that the time of my death is near, since making
amends is allowed me, I put to your reverences what I am arranging to be
done with my possessions and what I am bequeathing to my lady the most holy
virgin Ætheldreth in Ely. This is, the estate of Barking, which is mine by
right of parental inheritance, is granted in perpetuity, in order that my
memory may be held amongst them always).

Blake noted to this passage, "Perhaps the same as the Godgifu of ch. 81" -
this seems more than likely to me - "The bishop is probably Ælfric II of
Elmham who succeeded sometime after 1022 and died in 1038...and the outer
limits for the date of this bequest are no more closely defined than by the
probable dates of Leofric's tenure of the abbacy 1022 x 1029".

Given the specific indications twice over that this Godiva lived in the time
of Abbot Leofric, and the account that she wrote to him and to a named
bishop who was dead in 1038, it appears that Godiva the countess of Earl
Leofric of Mercia cannot be the woman in question. The late 12th-century
monk was probably taking his information from records, copies or originals,
held in the abbey, including this lady's will that he mentioned as written
in English and perhaps her letter that if quoted directly was a separate
document, or maybe a translation prepared for her in Latin because it was
intended for important churchmen and not for her family.

It's also possible that this Godiva was childless, since "infelix" used by
women can mean "barren" as well as "unhappy", and that might make sense in
the context of her testament, although describing oneself as miserable over
not being better prepared spiritually for the afterlife was conventional.

Peter Stewart

Bob Turcott

RE: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 25 aug 2007 13:41:06

Hey I still think the man that has the chocolate factory named his factory and rand name after the lady godiva , hey its godiva chocolates man!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=wi ... &form=QBRE

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 25 aug 2007 15:08:50

Peter,

Many thanks for your assistance on this.

Great scholarship, great translation - couldn't ask for more.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


"TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.949.1187729439.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.

The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because
its free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on
Thomas of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow
of an earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect
of death' to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in
letters to Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates
the letters to 1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's
overlapping years. DNB then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would
follow that she recovered from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union
with earl Leofric was a second marriage."

This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAA ... s=1#search
suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both
earl Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.

Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good
dates for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus?
Can the marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of
death', and there is no proof the woman ever recovered?

Having some free time to go into this thread further, Terry's post
prompted me to return to Ernest Blake's edition of _Liber Eliensis_ and
check for the details above, that are different from those in the passage
given before as the only mention of an earl's widow named Godiva.

However, the same woman with a devotion to the nun Ætheldreth is clearly
the subject of a second chapter, no. 83 in book 2 (page 151), as follows:

"Tunc restat edicere, qualiter fidelis Domini Godiva Ælfricum episcopum et
Leofricum abbatem de Ely per scripta salutavit et quod de salute sua eis
ostendere voluit. Sic quoque ait: O domini mei, ego infelix mulier,
quamvis circa salutem anime mee minus provide intenderim et tempus exitus
mei instat, cum adhuc licet operari, beatitudini vestre insinuo, quid ad
dominam meam sacratissimam virginem Æðeldreðam in Ely constituo fieri de
bonis meis atque concedo. Hoc est, terram de Berchinges, que mihi iuris
est parentum hereditate, illic perpetualiter impertior, ut apud eos mei
iugiter memoria sit."

(Then it remains to establish how the Lord's faithful Godiva greeted
Bishop Ælfric and Abbot Leofric of Ely in writing, and what she determined
to lay before them with regard to her salvation. She expressed herself
thus: O my lords, I, an unhappy woman, with however little prescience I
have exerted myself to save my soul, now that the time of my death is
near, since making amends is allowed me, I put to your reverences what I
am arranging to be done with my possessions and what I am bequeathing to
my lady the most holy virgin Ætheldreth in Ely. This is, the estate of
Barking, which is mine by right of parental inheritance, is granted in
perpetuity, in order that my memory may be held amongst them always).

Blake noted to this passage, "Perhaps the same as the Godgifu of ch. 81" -
this seems more than likely to me - "The bishop is probably Ælfric II of
Elmham who succeeded sometime after 1022 and died in 1038...and the outer
limits for the date of this bequest are no more closely defined than by
the probable dates of Leofric's tenure of the abbacy 1022 x 1029".

Given the specific indications twice over that this Godiva lived in the
time of Abbot Leofric, and the account that she wrote to him and to a
named bishop who was dead in 1038, it appears that Godiva the countess of
Earl Leofric of Mercia cannot be the woman in question. The late
12th-century monk was probably taking his information from records, copies
or originals, held in the abbey, including this lady's will that he
mentioned as written in English and perhaps her letter that if quoted
directly was a separate document, or maybe a translation prepared for her
in Latin because it was intended for important churchmen and not for her
family.

It's also possible that this Godiva was childless, since "infelix" used by
women can mean "barren" as well as "unhappy", and that might make sense in
the context of her testament, although describing oneself as miserable
over not being better prepared spiritually for the afterlife was
conventional.

Peter Stewart




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