Fw: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 12 aug 2007 00:47:31

----- Original Message -----
From: "DaHoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:11 AM
Subject: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death


Looking for a primary source [s] (likely a chronicle) for the death
date of Adelaide of Savoy or Adelaide of Maurienne, wife Louis VII of
France. She died on November 18, 1154.

Thank you in advance for your help.


This request was made 24 April and on 19 April I had my bypass operation. I
am still catching up and there is a lot for me to catch up with.

It seems (I hope I am wrong) this request was ignored. Surely someone could
have said something?

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fuerstliche Haeuser 1961 page 12 gives
also she died 18 November 1154 (not where) and she was buried in Paris'
Abbey of Montmartre. Sadly, no sources are given.

Europaische Stammtafeln Volume II Tafel 11, here is told (so I understand)
that Adelaide founded Montmartre close to Paris. She is recorded as having
died 18 November 1154.(not where) Here as source is given Tafel 10 to 13 :
Mak von Pfarrer i.R. Hanswolf Buck/Lindau; Pere Anselme

David Williamson's "Debrett's Kings and Queens of Europe", page 66 again
Adelaide died 18 Noveber 1154 (not where), buried Montmartre.
On pages 204 and 205 is a rather large collection of sources

Marlyn Lewis in "The Ancestry of Elizabeth of York" has Adelaide as nr. 4109
and again her date of death is 18 November 1154 (again not where she died).
A source given is F. L. Weiss "Ancestral Roots of 60 Colonists" line 117

F. L. Weiss line 117, page 106, gives she died 1 August
1154----------------is Weiss wrong? I think so.
This book also has a considerable list of sources.


I have not found a primary source reference, maybe someone else still can?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia






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Peter Stewart

Re: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 aug 2007 03:07:06

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.338.1186876132.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaHoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:11 AM
Subject: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death


Looking for a primary source [s] (likely a chronicle) for the death
date of Adelaide of Savoy or Adelaide of Maurienne, wife Louis VII of
France. She died on November 18, 1154.

Thank you in advance for your help.


This request was made 24 April and on 19 April I had my bypass operation.
I am still catching up and there is a lot for me to catch up with.

It seems (I hope I am wrong) this request was ignored. Surely someone
could have said something?

The archive may be defective - I posted three times in respons to this -
copies below.

Peter Stewart


"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:M6kXh.18749$M.1206@news-server.bigpond.net.au...


"DaHoorn" <sbarnho...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1177377094.366051.272800@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Looking for a primary source [s] (likely a chronicle) for the death date
of Adelaide of Savoy or Adelaide of Maurienne, wife Louis VII of France.
She died on November 18, 1154.

You might be lucky, but I'm not sure that any contemporary source records
her death in 1154 - this was given by Duchesne in his work on the
Montmorenci family, taken from there by Père Anselme and repeated ever
since, without citing evidence that I can remember seeing. Very little is
known of Adelaide's life after the death of her first husband - who by the
way was Louis VI (the Fat), not VII.

She certainly died on 18 November, her death or anniversary is recorded on
this date in the obituaries of Saint-Denis, Sainte-Geneviève and
Saint-Martin-des-Champs.

On further checking, although there is no direct source for the date it is
certain that Adelaide died on 18 November 1154.

A charter of her son Louis VII states that she had died in the convent at
Montmartre, her own foundation, while he was on pilgrimage to Santiago -
"Amor Dei et votorum obligatio nos aliquando compulit ad sanctum Jacobum
apostolum et patronum nostrum peregrinari. Et dum essemus in itinere, bone
memorie Adelaidis regina Francie et mater nostra in sancta confessione
migravit a seculo apud Montem martirum, in colegio sanctarum feminarum, quam
sane abbaciam ipsa fundaverat".

This document is known from two versions, one a vidimus of 25 January 1487
that gives the date 1154, the other a copy in the cartulary of Saint-Pierre
de Montmartre giving 1153 instead. Whichever is correct the year AD would
observe Annunciation style, so from this evidence the charter could have
been written in the twelve months before 25 March in either 1154 or 1155 new
style.

Louis VII's pilgrimage to Spain took place in 1154. He married Constance of
Castile in 1153 before 18 November, as shown by a document of the military
order of Santiago - "Facta carta in Sauria XIIII. Kal. Dec. Era MCLXCI.
quando imperator nupsit filiam suam Constantiam Ludovico regi Franciae" (Era
1191 = 1153). [A third post corrected this: Apologies for the confusing
date - the symbol from another font did not paste correctly, and to make
sense it should be read as "Era MCLXXXXI....(Era 1191 = 1153)".] After their
marriage his court was troubled by rumours that the new queen had been born
to a concubine, and we are told by several sources that he went to Spain
partly to verify that her mother was Alfonso VII's first wife Berenguela,
which was confirmed to him by the latter's brother Count Ramon Berenguer IV
of Barcelona. At the end of 1154 or beginning of 1155 (new style) Louis was
at Toulouse on his way back from this trip. The charter for Montmartre was
dated at Paris, and consequently was written after this, in the early months
of 1155, securely placing his mother's death late in 1154.

Peter Stewart

DaHoorn

Re: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av DaHoorn » 12 aug 2007 17:10:07

A charter of her son Louis VII states that she had died in the convent
at
Montmartre, her own foundation, while he was on pilgrimage to Santiago
-
"Amor Dei et votorum obligatio nos aliquando compulit ad sanctum
Jacobum
apostolum et patronum nostrum peregrinari. Et dum essemus in itinere,
bone
memorie Adelaidis regina Francie et mater nostra in sancta
confessione
migravit a seculo apud Montem martirum, in colegio sanctarum
feminarum, quam
sane abbaciam ipsa fundaverat".


This document is known from two versions, one a vidimus of 25 January
1487
that gives the date 1154, the other a copy in the cartulary of Saint-
Pierre
de Montmartre giving 1153 instead. Whichever is correct the year AD
would
observe Annunciation style, so from this evidence the charter could
have
been written in the twelve months before 25 March in either 1154 or
1155 new
style.


Peter: Where can I find this info?

DaHoorn

Re: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av DaHoorn » 12 aug 2007 17:12:18

She certainly died on 18 November, her death or anniversary is
recorded on this date in the obituaries of Saint-Denis, Sainte-
Geneviève and Saint-Martin-des-Champs.


And where can I find this information?

Regards

Peter Stewart

Re: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 aug 2007 23:17:16

"DaHoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1186935138.971277.270400@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

[I had written:]
She certainly died on 18 November, her death or anniversary is
recorded on this date in the obituaries of Saint-Denis, Sainte-
Geneviève and Saint-Martin-des-Champs.

And where can I find this information?

_Obituaires de la province de Sens_, tome i. _Diocèses de Sens et de Paris_,
edited by Auguste Molinier (Paris, 1902), p. 331 (Saint-Denis), p. 469
(Saint-Martin-des-Champs) and p. 515 (Sainte-Geneviève).



Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Evidence of Adelaide of Maurienne's death

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 aug 2007 23:19:42

"DaHoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1186935007.268445.265770@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

[I had written:]
A charter of her son Louis VII states that she had died in the convent
at Montmartre, her own foundation, while he was on pilgrimage to
Santiago -

_Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye royale de Montmartre_, edited by Édouard de
Barthélemy (Paris, 1883), p. 89.



Peter Stewart

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