Fw: Maiden name of Joan Champernoun, wife of Robert Gamage,

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Maiden name of Joan Champernoun, wife of Robert Gamage,

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 11 aug 2007 23:13:58

Here is another example of Richarson's sloppy if not dishonest approach to
the information he presents.

See below:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:23 AM
Subject: Maiden name of Joan Champernoun, wife of Robert Gamage, Esq., of
Coity,Glamorgan, Wales


Dear Newsgroup ~

There has been some confusion regarding the maiden name of Joan, wife
of Robert Gamage, Esq., of Coity, Glamorgan, and Rogiet,
Monmouthshire, Wales, which couple were married shortly before 1531.
Joan Gamage is the paternal grandmother of the well known Elizabethan
lady, Barbara Gamage (died 1621), Countess of Leicester. One account
places Joan as the daughter of an unidentified Sir Philip Seymour
[see, for example, Clark, Limbus Patrum Morganiæ et Glamorganiæ
(1886): 390], but elsewhere I find Joan is usually placed as a
daughter of Sir Philip Champernoun, of Devonshire. This post will
discuss the evidence concerning Joan's correct maiden name.

Nicholas, Annals and antiquities of the counties and county families
of Wales (1872): 567 identifies Joan, wife of Robert Gamage, as the
daughter of "Philip Champernon, of Darlington" (see also Clark, Limbus
Patrum Morganiæ et Glamorganiæ (1886): 390). Heard, Glamorganshire
Peds. (1845): 4-5 similarly asserts that "Robert Gamadge, Esqr. Lord
of Coyty, married Joan, daughter to Sir Phillip Champernon, Knt."
Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 5th Ser. 8 (1932-34): 207-208 provides a Gamage
pedigree which states: "Rob. Gamage de Coyte et de Rogiade. = Jana
filia Philippi Champernon alias de Campo Arnolphi in Com. Devonsh.").
A pedigree of the Gamage family in a contemporary visitation dated
1531 further states "Robert Gamage maryed Jane, doughter to Sir
Phellip Chamber [sic] of Devon, and had yssue Marget." (see Siddons,
Visitations by the Heralds in Wales (H.S.P. n.s. 14) (1996): 63-64).
St. John, Life of Sir Walter Raleigh, 1552-1618 1 (1868): 124-125
gives the following detailed information in support of Robert Gamage's
marriage to a daughter of Sir Philip Champernoun: "Without climbing
genealogical trees, I may observe that Sir Philip Chambernoun, of
Modbury, in Devonshire, had two daughters, one of whom was married to
Raleigh's father, the other to a Mr. Gamage, a man of Norman descent
and of large possessions in Glamorganshire. The offspring of this
marriage, John Gamage, died young, leaving behind him Barbara, an only
daughter, the heiress of all his estates. Barbara, it is said, was
still more remarkable for her beauty than her riches, so that her hand
was sought eagerly by numerous suiters, among whom was Philip Sidney's
younger brother Robert, in whose behalf Raleigh was induced to
interest himself with his cousin. To render success in negotiations
more sure, Walsingham directed the guardian to send up Barbara to
London forthwith, that she might be under the eye of her nearest
relatives, [George Carey] the Lord Hunsdon and Mr. Raleigh." (citing
Stradling Correspondence, pg. 23). Thus, Barbara Gamage, the
granddaughter and heiress of Robert and Joan Gamage, is known to have
been near related to Sir Walter Raleigh, whose mother Katherine was a
daughter of Sir Philip Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon. Robert
Gamage's wife's maiden name is further attested in a pedigree prepared
in 1608 by Robert and Joan's granddaughter, Barbara Gamage, Countess
of Leicester, which pedigree identifies Robert's wife's name as "Joan
Champernoun of Devonshire" (see Hannay et al. Domestic Politics and
Family Absence (2005): 9). Vivian, Vis. of Devon 1531, 1564 & 1620
(1895): 162 confirms that Sir Philip Champernoun had a daughter named
Joan, but states that Joan married Sir Anthony Denny [see DENNY 16],
not Robert Gamage, Esq. Since the existence of Joan Champernoun, wife
of Sir Anthony Denny, can be readily confirmed from other sources [see
ODBN sub Sir Anthony Denny],

it seems apparent that Sir Philip
Champernoun had two daughters named Joan (or Jane), one who married
Sir Anthony Denny, and the other who married Robert Gamage, Esq.

===== The way this reads is that it is a proposition by Richardson that Sir
Philip had two daughters "named Joan (or Jane)".

Go to Burke's Peerage, 1937 edition page 383 and here we find Sir Philip as
father of six daughters :
2.Joan married to Sir Anthony Denny
6.Joan married to Robert Gamage

to confuse genealogists further, Sir Philip also had two daughters called
Katherine
3.Katherine married (1) Sir Otho Gilbert (2) Walter Raleigh
5.Katherine married to John Astley, she became as Kate Astley governess of
the young Elizabeth I
===These details can be seen on Genealogics, where they have been for a
considerable time.

When someone publicly claims to be "a trained historian and genealogist",
surely they should do their homework before going public.
Asking questions on gen-med should be done if you are unable yourself to
find an answer, Gen-Med should be a last resort, not the first stop hoping
others will do your work for you.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia







One last brief comment: The new Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography [ODNB] states that Sir Walter Raleigh (died 1618), the
famous Elizabethan courtier and explorer, was the uncle of Barbara
Gamage (died 1621), Countess of Leicester. This information is
misleading. Sir Walter Raleigh was actually Barbara Gamage's near
kinsman as stated above. Sir Walter's mother and Barbara Gamager's
grandmother were Champernoun sisters, thus making them first cousins
once removed, not uncle and niece.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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