I raise this matter again.
Leo mentions [sub. Catherine de Valois, Princess of France]"
"Around 1424, rumours about her [Catherine of France, Queen of England]
connection with Owen Tudor were heard."
Leo, I wonder if you could tell me the origin of that? As Michael Jones
in the _Oxford DNB_ claims, firm data about the beginning of
Catherine's first meeting and later liaison with Owen Tudor has yet to
come to light, although much legend has been hung on the event. Jones
says:
"Nevertheless, in spite of the council's precautions, some time between
1428 and 1432 Catherine did contract a morganatic marriage, though this
only became known after her death. Her new husband was a young Welsh
squire, Owen Tudor. The naming of their first child, Edmund Tudor, has
also led to serious speculation on whether Henry VII, Edmund Tudor's son
, Edmund Tudor's son, descended from Beauforts on both sides of his
pedigree[.]"
[Michael Jones, 'Catherine (1401-1437)', Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/4890, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
Edmund Tudor's birth date seems similarly vague:
"Tudor, Edmund [Edmund of Hadham], first earl of Richmond
([b.]c.1430)".
[R. S. Thomas, 'Tudor, Edmund , first earl of Richmond (c.1430-1456)',
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/27795, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
Since arguably Edmund Tudor might just have easily have been born from
say about 1427-1432, his father might well have been Edmund Beaufort,
known to have been a suitor for Queen Catherine at least in 1427/8.
Jones also says:
"[S]he [Queen Catherine] may have taken Tudor as her husband to prevent
her true love, Edmund Beaufort, suffering the penalties of the statute
of 1428, since Owen had so few possessions to forfeit."
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this? That the widowed
Queen Catherine's eldest son should be named Edmund - a name appearing
in neither the families of Owen Tudor nor the Valois - taken in
conjuction with the chronology, the vague dates, and the known
attraction c.1427/8 (at least) between Queen Catherine and Edmund
Beaufort is striking.
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Edmund Tudor a (Beaufort-) Plantagenet?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Edmund Tudor a (Beaufort-) Plantagenet?
On 11 Aug., 18:54, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
In fairness to Jones, the relevant paragraph in his ODNB article on
Catherine actually concludes:
"...on both sides of his pedigree, *though this seems improbable*" [my
emphasis].
Nevertheless, Jones does himself no favours by referrring to Catherine
and Owen's marriage as being "morganatic". The concept of a
morganatic marriage is unknown to English law. The adjective he was
perhaps looking for was "clandestine".
For what it is worth, Thomas also states in his article:
"Despite the speculations of some modern historians, there is no firm
evidence that Edmund Tudor was the illegitimate son of Edmund Beaufort
(or possibly his godson), and that, following Edmund Tudor's later
marriage to Margaret Beaufort (1443-1509), the 'Tudor' dynasty sprang
from Beaufort lines on both sides."
Tony, this is interesting speculation, but I find it unconvincing.
The suggestion that Edmund's name might indicate he had a Beaufort
godfather is just as logical. Furthermore, as far as I know neither
the Tudor nor the Valois families had previously had any history of
the use of the name Jasper - who should we suppose the Earl of
Pembroke's father to have been then?
Cheers, Michael
As Michael Jones
in the _Oxford DNB_ claims, firm data about the beginning of
Catherine's first meeting and later liaison with Owen Tudor has yet to
come to light, although much legend has been hung on the event. Jones
says:
"Nevertheless, in spite of the council's precautions, some time between
1428 and 1432 Catherine did contract a morganatic marriage, though this
only became known after her death. Her new husband was a young Welsh
squire, Owen Tudor. The naming of their first child, Edmund Tudor, has
also led to serious speculation on whether Henry VII, Edmund Tudor's son
, Edmund Tudor's son, descended from Beauforts on both sides of his
pedigree[.]"
In fairness to Jones, the relevant paragraph in his ODNB article on
Catherine actually concludes:
"...on both sides of his pedigree, *though this seems improbable*" [my
emphasis].
Nevertheless, Jones does himself no favours by referrring to Catherine
and Owen's marriage as being "morganatic". The concept of a
morganatic marriage is unknown to English law. The adjective he was
perhaps looking for was "clandestine".
[Michael Jones, 'Catherine (1401-1437)', Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/4890, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
Edmund Tudor's birth date seems similarly vague:
"Tudor, Edmund [Edmund of Hadham], first earl of Richmond
([b.]c.1430)".
[R. S. Thomas, 'Tudor, Edmund , first earl of Richmond (c.1430-1456)',
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/27795, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
For what it is worth, Thomas also states in his article:
"Despite the speculations of some modern historians, there is no firm
evidence that Edmund Tudor was the illegitimate son of Edmund Beaufort
(or possibly his godson), and that, following Edmund Tudor's later
marriage to Margaret Beaufort (1443-1509), the 'Tudor' dynasty sprang
from Beaufort lines on both sides."
Since arguably Edmund Tudor might just have easily have been born from
say about 1427-1432, his father might well have been Edmund Beaufort,
known to have been a suitor for Queen Catherine at least in 1427/8.
Jones also says:
"[S]he [Queen Catherine] may have taken Tudor as her husband to prevent
her true love, Edmund Beaufort, suffering the penalties of the statute
of 1428, since Owen had so few possessions to forfeit."
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this? That the widowed
Queen Catherine's eldest son should be named Edmund - a name appearing
in neither the families of Owen Tudor nor the Valois - taken in
conjuction with the chronology, the vague dates, and the known
attraction c.1427/8 (at least) between Queen Catherine and Edmund
Beaufort is striking.
Tony, this is interesting speculation, but I find it unconvincing.
The suggestion that Edmund's name might indicate he had a Beaufort
godfather is just as logical. Furthermore, as far as I know neither
the Tudor nor the Valois families had previously had any history of
the use of the name Jasper - who should we suppose the Earl of
Pembroke's father to have been then?
Cheers, Michael
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Edmund Tudor a (Beaufort-) Plantagenet?
Well, that's certainly a genealogical three-bank cushion shot.
Singularly Unconvincing.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
----------------------------------------------------
"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.320.1186854963.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Singularly Unconvincing.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
----------------------------------------------------
"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.320.1186854963.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I raise this matter again.
Leo mentions [sub. Catherine de Valois, Princess of France]"
"Around 1424, rumours about her [Catherine of France, Queen of England]
connection with Owen Tudor were heard."
Leo, I wonder if you could tell me the origin of that? As Michael Jones
in the _Oxford DNB_ claims, firm data about the beginning of
Catherine's first meeting and later liaison with Owen Tudor has yet to
come to light, although much legend has been hung on the event. Jones
says:
"Nevertheless, in spite of the council's precautions, some time between
1428 and 1432 Catherine did contract a morganatic marriage, though this
only became known after her death. Her new husband was a young Welsh
squire, Owen Tudor. The naming of their first child, Edmund Tudor, has
also led to serious speculation on whether Henry VII, Edmund Tudor's son
, Edmund Tudor's son, descended from Beauforts on both sides of his
pedigree[.]"
[Michael Jones, 'Catherine (1401-1437)', Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/4890, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
Edmund Tudor's birth date seems similarly vague:
"Tudor, Edmund [Edmund of Hadham], first earl of Richmond
([b.]c.1430)".
[R. S. Thomas, 'Tudor, Edmund , first earl of Richmond (c.1430-1456)',
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/27795, accessed 11 Aug 2007]
Since arguably Edmund Tudor might just have easily have been born from
say about 1427-1432, his father might well have been Edmund Beaufort,
known to have been a suitor for Queen Catherine at least in 1427/8.
Jones also says:
"[S]he [Queen Catherine] may have taken Tudor as her husband to prevent
her true love, Edmund Beaufort, suffering the penalties of the statute
of 1428, since Owen had so few possessions to forfeit."
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this? That the widowed
Queen Catherine's eldest son should be named Edmund - a name appearing
in neither the families of Owen Tudor nor the Valois - taken in
conjuction with the chronology, the vague dates, and the known
attraction c.1427/8 (at least) between Queen Catherine and Edmund
Beaufort is striking.
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562