eleanore of Acquitaine and Consanguinity?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Dana S. Leslie
eleanore of Acquitaine and Consanguinity?
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were, themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's [Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two oft repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were, themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's [Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two oft repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Gjest
Re: eleanore of Acquitaine and Consanguinity?
On 11 Aug., 17:46, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
According to "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by Alison Weir (Pimlico, 2000) at
p 23, Eleanor and Louis were fourth cousins.
One way of computing this is via the comital family of Burgundy, viz:
1. Otto William, Count of Burgundy
2. Agnes of Burgundy
3. William VIII of Aquitaine
4. William IX of Aquitaine
5. William X of Aquitaine
6. Eleanor of Aquitaine, married Louis VII of France
2. Renaud of Burgundy
3. William I of Burgundy
4. Gisela of Burgundy
5. Adelaide of Savoy
6. Louis VII of France, married Eleanor of Aquitaine (his
4th cousin)
Regards, Michael
wrote:
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have this data, or a link to where they can be found?
According to "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by Alison Weir (Pimlico, 2000) at
p 23, Eleanor and Louis were fourth cousins.
One way of computing this is via the comital family of Burgundy, viz:
1. Otto William, Count of Burgundy
2. Agnes of Burgundy
3. William VIII of Aquitaine
4. William IX of Aquitaine
5. William X of Aquitaine
6. Eleanor of Aquitaine, married Louis VII of France
2. Renaud of Burgundy
3. William I of Burgundy
4. Gisela of Burgundy
5. Adelaide of Savoy
6. Louis VII of France, married Eleanor of Aquitaine (his
4th cousin)
Regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: eleanore of Acquitaine and Consanguinity?
On 11 Aug., 17:46, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
I suspect it's worse than that:
1. Ermengarde of Anjou
married (a) Geoffrey, Count of the Gatinais
2. Fulk IV of Anjou
3. Fulk V of Anjou
4. Geoffrey of Anjou
5. Henry II of England, married Eleanor of Aquitaine
married (b) Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
2. Hildegard of Burgundy
3. William IX of Aquitaine
4. William X of Aquitaine
5. Eleanor of Aquitaine, married Henry II of England (her half-
third cousin)
MA-R
wrote:
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were, themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's [Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's father).
I suspect it's worse than that:
1. Ermengarde of Anjou
married (a) Geoffrey, Count of the Gatinais
2. Fulk IV of Anjou
3. Fulk V of Anjou
4. Geoffrey of Anjou
5. Henry II of England, married Eleanor of Aquitaine
married (b) Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
2. Hildegard of Burgundy
3. William IX of Aquitaine
4. William X of Aquitaine
5. Eleanor of Aquitaine, married Henry II of England (her half-
third cousin)
MA-R
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and
also half THIRD cousins once removed.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dJlvi.113483$dA7.10959@newsfe16.lga...
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of
Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But
none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I
have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have
this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were,
themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only
connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's
[Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX of
Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two oft
repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
also half THIRD cousins once removed.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dJlvi.113483$dA7.10959@newsfe16.lga...
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of
Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But
none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I
have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have
this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were,
themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only
connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's
[Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX of
Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two oft
repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Dana S. Leslie
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
Spencer,
Michael provided details on the 3rd half-cousins relationship. Can you give
details on the 3rd cousins once removed relationship? Thanks.
Dana
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:pPmvi.67$wi6.121@eagle.america.net...
Michael provided details on the 3rd half-cousins relationship. Can you give
details on the 3rd cousins once removed relationship? Thanks.
Dana
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:pPmvi.67$wi6.121@eagle.america.net...
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and
also half THIRD cousins once removed.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dJlvi.113483$dA7.10959@newsfe16.lga...
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of
Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But
none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I
have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have
this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were,
themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only
connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's
[Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX
of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's
father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two
oft repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
Leo and Peter can surely thrash it out -- playing the genealogical leapfrog
they so delight in.
There's more:
Eleanor and Louis VII were reportedly THIRD cousins, once removed.
Eleanor and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and also half THIRD
cousins once removed.
So, if that's true, she was more closely related to Henry than to Louis.
<g>
Slightly...
All Best Wishes,
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Exitus Acta Probat
---------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:ktnvi.126770$BX3.64407@newsfe13.lga...
Leo and Peter can surely thrash it out -- playing the genealogical leapfrog
they so delight in.
There's more:
Eleanor and Louis VII were reportedly THIRD cousins, once removed.
Eleanor and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and also half THIRD
cousins once removed.
So, if that's true, she was more closely related to Henry than to Louis.
<g>
Slightly...
All Best Wishes,
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Exitus Acta Probat
---------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:ktnvi.126770$BX3.64407@newsfe13.lga...
Spencer,
Michael provided details on the 3rd half-cousins relationship. Can you
give details on the 3rd cousins once removed relationship? Thanks.
Dana
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:pPmvi.67$wi6.121@eagle.america.net...
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and
also half THIRD cousins once removed.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dJlvi.113483$dA7.10959@newsfe16.lga...
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of
Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity.
But none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship,
and I have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does
anyone have this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were,
themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only
connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's
[Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX
of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's
father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two
oft repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Leticia Cluff
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Cutting & Runing?
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007, after a lot of top posting and replying to
himself, "David S. Hines" <panter@excelsior.com>, when asked a
question about a topic on which he knows nothing, wrote:
Hilarious!
Mr Hines cuts and runs in a fine admission of ignorance.
Maybe his twin-celled brain is exhausted after spending the last 24
hours waging a successful campaign to make readers feel sympathy for
Peter Stewart.
Tish
himself, "David S. Hines" <panter@excelsior.com>, when asked a
question about a topic on which he knows nothing, wrote:
I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
Hilarious!
Mr Hines cuts and runs in a fine admission of ignorance.
Maybe his twin-celled brain is exhausted after spending the last 24
hours waging a successful campaign to make readers feel sympathy for
Peter Stewart.
Tish
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Cheers,
John
On Aug 11, 2:45?pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Cheers,
John
On Aug 11, 2:45?pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
Spencer,
Michael provided details on the 3rd half-cousins relationship. Can you give
details on the 3rd cousins once removed relationship? Thanks.
Dana
"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in messagenews:pPmvi.67$wi6.121@eagle.america.net...
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II were reportedly half THIRD cousins and
also half THIRD cousins once removed.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dJlvi.113483$dA7.10959@newsfe16.lga...
I can find any number of sources that simply repeat that Eleanor of
Aquitaine and Louis VII were divorced on the grounds of consanguinity. But
none of them gives the exact details of the supposed relationship, and I
have not been able to discover them, in my own research. Does anyone have
this data, or a link to where they can be found?
Similarly, it is nearly as often repeated that Eleanor and Henry II were,
themselves, related in the same degree as Eleanor an Louis. But the only
connection I can find between them is that Ermengarde of Anjou (Fulk V's
[Henry's grandfather's] *half*-sister) was the *first* wife of William IX
of Aquitaine; and she was NOT even the mother of William X (Eleanor's
father).
Does anyone know if there are any more substantial grounds for these two
oft repeated claims of consanguinity?
Thank you.
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLes...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
-
Paul J Gans
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
In alt.history.british John P. Ravilious <therav3@aol.com> wrote:
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
Hilarious!
....And not true...
Certainly not so in France -- where he lived.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
....And not true...
Certainly not so in France -- where he lived.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british John P. Ravilious <therav3@aol.com> wrote:
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
-
Dana S. Leslie
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
As long as we're picking nits . . . the Robert at the head of this descent
should be Robert II the Pious (capetian), NOT Robert I the Strong
(Carolingian).
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british John P. Ravilious <therav3@aol.com> wrote:
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
As long as we're picking nits . . . the Robert at the head of this descent
should be Robert II the Pious (capetian), NOT Robert I the Strong
(Carolingian).
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Dana S. Leslie
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:1hPvi.45901$GO6.12532@newsfe21.lga...
OOPS! Robert I the Strong, of course, is NOT a Carolingian, but a Capetian.
What I meant to indicate, of course, is that he reigned prior to Hugh Capet,
prior to 987.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
news:1hPvi.45901$GO6.12532@newsfe21.lga...
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british John P. Ravilious <therav3@aol.com> wrote:
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
As long as we're picking nits . . . the Robert at the head of this descent
should be Robert II the Pious (capetian), NOT Robert I the Strong
(Carolingian).
OOPS! Robert I the Strong, of course, is NOT a Carolingian, but a Capetian.
What I meant to indicate, of course, is that he reigned prior to Hugh Capet,
prior to 987.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:avPvi.25791$lZ7.18722@newsfe20.lga...
<snip>
The convention nowadays is to call the dynasty 'Robertian' from Robert the
Strong (who was the father of King Robert I, not the same man) down to Hugo
Magnus (who wa sthe father of King Hugo Capet).
Calling Robert the Strong or his son Robert I Capetians is rather like
calling Hugo Capet a Bourbon - they are of the same agnatic line, and all
decendants of the Roberts in male line today trace through Hugo Capet, just
as all the latter's agnatic descendants today (I think - but there may be
some illegitimate offspring of the Courtenays) trace through the Bourbons.
Peter Stewart
news:avPvi.25791$lZ7.18722@newsfe20.lga...
<snip>
As long as we're picking nits . . . the Robert at the head of this
descent should be Robert II the Pious (capetian), NOT Robert I the Strong
(Carolingian).
OOPS! Robert I the Strong, of course, is NOT a Carolingian, but a
Capetian. What I meant to indicate, of course, is that he reigned prior to
Hugh Capet, prior to 987.
The convention nowadays is to call the dynasty 'Robertian' from Robert the
Strong (who was the father of King Robert I, not the same man) down to Hugo
Magnus (who wa sthe father of King Hugo Capet).
Calling Robert the Strong or his son Robert I Capetians is rather like
calling Hugo Capet a Bourbon - they are of the same agnatic line, and all
decendants of the Roberts in male line today trace through Hugo Capet, just
as all the latter's agnatic descendants today (I think - but there may be
some illegitimate offspring of the Courtenays) trace through the Bourbons.
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
Thank you kindly.
Vive la France!
DSH
------------------------------
"Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46bff175$0$5073$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
Vive la France!
DSH
------------------------------
"Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46bff175$0$5073$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
D. Spencer Hines a écrit dans le message ...
Hilarious!
...And not true...
Certainly not so in France -- where he lived.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
You are correct The father of Aliénor d'Aquitaine
is not known as William
JL
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
On Aug 13, 12:12 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
More backing and filling by Hines. The statement of Paul Gans was
perfectly true, Eleanor of Aquitaine's father IS widely known as
William. The English-speaking world is wide by any reckoning. And he
would not have regarded himself as living in "France".
Peter Stewart
Hilarious!
...And not true...
Certainly not so in France -- where he lived.
More backing and filling by Hines. The statement of Paul Gans was
perfectly true, Eleanor of Aquitaine's father IS widely known as
William. The English-speaking world is wide by any reckoning. And he
would not have regarded himself as living in "France".
Peter Stewart
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <g...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british John P. Ravilious <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Saturday, 11 August, 2007
Dear Dana, et al.,
The following gives the 3rd cousin 1x removed relationship
between Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Robert I, K of France
______________I________________
I I
Henry I of France Robert I, Duke of Burgundy
I I
I I
Philip I of France Hildegarde = Guillaume VIII
I ____I of Aquitaine
I I
Louis VI of France Guillaume IX of Aquitaine
I I
I I
I___________ Guillaume X of Aquitaine
I I
I I
Louis VII of France = 1) Eleanor of Aquitaine
Just a nit, but...
In my humble opinion it helps to be consistent. Since you
use the names "Eleanor" and "Henry", why not "William"
instead of Guillaume?
The ususal convention is that a person is known by the names
most often associated with them *today*. And Eleanor's
father is widely known today as William X of Aquitaine.
--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
-
gbh
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:44:19 +0200, "Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:
Where he lived is irrelevant.
The language in which you are writing is the relevant thing.
You should have written: 'In France the father of Aliénor d'Aquitaine
is not known as William.'
However, there are other countries in the world which speak other
languages than French. It has always been common practice to translate
names, especially the names of rulers, and especially when writing
about the Middle Ages..
So it is true to say in French that
Aliénor d'Aquitaine was the daughter of Guillaume
but in Catalan they say that
Elionor d'Aquitània was the daughter of Guillem
and in German they say that
Eleonore von Aquitanien was the daughter of Wilhelm
and in Czech they say that
Eleonora Akvitánská was the daughter of Vilém
and in Spanish they say that
Leonor de Aquitania was the daughter of Guillermo
and in Dutch they say that
Eleonora van Aquitanië was the daughter of Willem
and in Portuguese they say that
Leonor da Aquitânia was the daughter of Guilherme
and in Italian they say that
Eleonora d'Aquitania was the daughter of Guglielmo
and in Hungarian they say that
Aquitániai Eleonóra was the daughter of Vilmos
This topic is being discussed in English-language newsgroups, and
therefore it is perfectly acceptable to follow the time-honoured
practice of English historiography and say that
Eleanor of Aquitaine was the daughter of William.
And I for one will continue to call him William the Conqueror, not
Guillaume le Conquérant.
gbh
wrote:
D. Spencer Hines a écrit dans le message ...
Hilarious!
...And not true...
Certainly not so in France -- where he lived.
Where he lived is irrelevant.
The language in which you are writing is the relevant thing.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9o41k$kb1$1@reader2.panix.com...
You are correct The father of Aliénor d'Aquitaine
is not known as William
You should have written: 'In France the father of Aliénor d'Aquitaine
is not known as William.'
However, there are other countries in the world which speak other
languages than French. It has always been common practice to translate
names, especially the names of rulers, and especially when writing
about the Middle Ages..
So it is true to say in French that
Aliénor d'Aquitaine was the daughter of Guillaume
but in Catalan they say that
Elionor d'Aquitània was the daughter of Guillem
and in German they say that
Eleonore von Aquitanien was the daughter of Wilhelm
and in Czech they say that
Eleonora Akvitánská was the daughter of Vilém
and in Spanish they say that
Leonor de Aquitania was the daughter of Guillermo
and in Dutch they say that
Eleonora van Aquitanië was the daughter of Willem
and in Portuguese they say that
Leonor da Aquitânia was the daughter of Guilherme
and in Italian they say that
Eleonora d'Aquitania was the daughter of Guglielmo
and in Hungarian they say that
Aquitániai Eleonóra was the daughter of Vilmos
This topic is being discussed in English-language newsgroups, and
therefore it is perfectly acceptable to follow the time-honoured
practice of English historiography and say that
Eleanor of Aquitaine was the daughter of William.
And I for one will continue to call him William the Conqueror, not
Guillaume le Conquérant.
gbh
-
gbh
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:50:20 +0100, gbh <pisces@slices.com> wrote:
Malicious readers should not construe that to mean that I think it's
the same William
gbh
This topic is being discussed in English-language newsgroups, and
therefore it is perfectly acceptable to follow the time-honoured
practice of English historiography and say that
Eleanor of Aquitaine was the daughter of William.
And I for one will continue to call him William the Conqueror, not
Guillaume le Conquérant.
Malicious readers should not construe that to mean that I think it's
the same William
gbh
-
Dana S. Leslie
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
The convention nowadays is to call the dynasty 'Robertian' from Robert the
Strong (who was the father of King Robert I, not the same man) down to
Hugo Magnus (who wa sthe father of King Hugo Capet).
Once again, my bad! That's what I get for writing from memory, rather than
consulting my database first.
And, a propos of another current thread, I prefer to refer to *Hugh* Capet
(rather than Hugo or Hugues), and his great-uncle Odo (rather than Eudes,
Otto etc.)
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
-
erilar
Re: Eleanor of Aquitaine & Consanguinity?
In article <1186988869.579647.100110@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
It wasn't "France" until the northerners invaded and took over,
pretending it was a crusade.
--
Mary, biblioholic
bib-li-o-hol-ism : the habitual longing to purchase, read, store,
admire, and consume books in excess.
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Eleanor of Aquitaine's father IS widely known as
William. The English-speaking world is wide by any reckoning. And he
would not have regarded himself as living in "France".
It wasn't "France" until the northerners invaded and took over,
pretending it was a crusade.
--
Mary, biblioholic
bib-li-o-hol-ism : the habitual longing to purchase, read, store,
admire, and consume books in excess.
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo