A Question about how to become legitimate and what did that

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Leo van de Pas

A Question about how to become legitimate and what did that

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 09 aug 2007 11:22:49

Someone approached me with a very interesting possibility within the Nassau family. This brought up some questions about what it means to be legitimised.

When John of Gaunt married Katherine Swynford they already had four children. Was there a legal document which made those four "legitimised"? Or was the marriage of their parents sufficient to make them "legitimate"? If there was a document to legitimise the four children, were all four mentioned? Did all four _have_ to be mentioned? Or if one was legitimised it followed that the others were also? I understand they became legitimised and only some years later did Henry IV declare they were not in line for the throne. Without that declaration, were they legally in line? The laws in England and Scotland are very different in regards to children whose parents married _after_ the children were born, which really means Henry IV need not have made that declaration .

In 1464 Louis de Bourbon, not as yet a priest but who was bishop of Liege, married secretly without permission of the king. It took many years before his children were declared to be legitimate, but because the king's permission had not been asked, they were not in line for the French crown.

Henri IV of France legitimised his children by Gabrielle d'Estrees, but made it clear that their son Cesar was not in line for the French crown.

This whole exercise is really about two illigitimately born children of Henry III Count of Nassau.

Dr. Dek in his book on the House of Nassau has that Henry III married three times and had illegitimate children by three different mistresses.
Usually he places these illigitmate children in order of birth, but here strangely he doesn't.
by Elisabeth van Roosenbach
1.Alexis born 1511
by Margaretha van Schoondonck
2.Elisabeth born circa 1510
by Marie de Reval
3.Lodewijk Philips born between 1531 and 1538

Dr. Dek tells that Alexis born in 1511, was legitimised 9 April 1545. He was chamberlain of the Emperor and Governor of Mezieres.
Dr. Dek does not mention a legitimation for Elisabeth or Lodewijk Philips.

Now I am told that Alexis was born more likely in 1501 and Elisabeth has the same mother as he has. Also I am told that Elisabeth was legitimised on 7 July 1530, (and in her legitimation papers is mentioned that her mother was Elisabeth van Roosenbach and not Margaretha van Schoondonck) some fourteen/fifteen years before her "full" brother Alexis. Did they have to be legitimised separately? And why not both at the same time?

Also it is suggested that Henry III and Elisabeth van Roosenbach went (possibly in 1500) through a "marriage ceremony" not accepted by the church nor the law, and that she lived with him for a very long time, even though Henry III in 1503 married Francoise de Savoie and in 1515 Claude de Chalon.

Also I am told that Alexis in 1521 was made governor of Mouzon, this is not mentioned by Dr. Dek. If Dr. Dek is correct and Alexis was born in 1511, then when he was made governor of Mouzon he was only ten? If he was born in 1501 then he would have been twenty, which makes more sense. That he was made governor of Mouzon is mentioned in the memories of Martin du Bellay who was alive at the time, but this does not mean he was correct.

What did those legitimations mean? It was implied to me that had Alexis been legitimised in 1530 with his sister, he would/could have been heir to his half brother Rene de Chalon, and he would have inherited the Nassau properties in The Netherlands and likely Rene would have willed him Orange, as Rene did to William the Silent.Rene de Chalon had inherited Orange from his mother's brother, and so there was no blood link to Alexis, but neither was there to William the Silent. What would have happened had Rene de Chalon not made a will? Would Orange have reverted to his mother's family?

Can anyone shine some light on what really was happening?

Elisabeth van Nassau is an ancestor of Albert II, Prince of Monaco; Prince Philippe of Belgium; Hans Adam II of Liechtenstein; Henri Grand Duke of Luxembourg; and many other prominent people today.


With many thanks
Leo van de Pas

DaHoorn

Re: A Question about how to become legitimate and what did t

Legg inn av DaHoorn » 09 aug 2007 17:00:56

When John of Gaunt married Katherine Swynford they already had four children. Was there a legal document which made those four "legitimised"? Or was the marriage of their parents sufficient to make them "legitimate"? If there was a document to legitimise the four children, were all four mentioned? Did all four _have_ to be mentioned?

John of Gaunt's 3rd marriage and its issue were declared legitimate by
the Pope (Cal. Papal Letters, vol. iv, p. 545), and the Beauforts
legitimated Feb. 1397 by Act of Parl., in which they are described as
*vos gui magne probitatis ingenio vite ac morum honestate fulgetis*
(Rolls of Parl., vol. iii, p. 343).

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