Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

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Douglas Richardson

Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 aug 2007 15:27:05

Dear Newsgroup ~

I've copied below two alleged royal lines of descent for Governor
Stephen Goodyear. These descents were sent to me this past week by a
Goodyear family descendant. I'd appreciate comments from anyone
regarding these lines.

I see various problems with the earlier generations in both descents
below. Regardless, I've left the descents exactly as they were sent
to me without any corrections. Elsewhere on Ancestry World Tree, I
note that someone there has alleged that Edmund Butler and his wife,
Catherine Shile O'Carrol, listed below are ancestral to my own
immigrant ancestor, Edmund-1 Sherman, of New Haven, Connecticut. My
Edmund Sherman actually descends from the Butter family of Essex, NOT
the Butler family of Ireland. So the alleged Butler-Sherman descent
is entirely bogus. Hopefully the Goodyear lines below will prove to
be more sound.

I believe we learn just as much in disproving a bad line of descent,
as we do in proving a good one.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
Geoffrey de Mandeville to Stephen Goodyear

Geoffrey de Mandevlle (b. 1165 Essex, England; d. 2/23/1216 London,
England)
+Aveline de Clare (b. 1172 Hereford, England; d. 6/4/1225)
John de Mandeville (b. 1215 Surry, England; d. 11/23/1258)
+Isabel Bigod (b. 1222 Norfolk, England; d. 1239)
Joan de Mandeville (b. 1242 Surry, England; d. 5/26/1303)
+Theobald Boteler (b. b. 1252 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 1285 Wicklow,
Ireland)
Edmund Boteler (b. 1271 Kilhenny, Ireland; d. London, England,
9/13/1321)
+Joan Fitz-Gerald (b. 1281 Fermoy, Ireland)
James Butler (b. 1306 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 2/17/1337)
+Eleanor de Bottun (b. 10/17/1304 Yorkshire, England; d. 10/7/1363)
James Butler (b. 1331; d. 10/18/1382)
+Elizabeth Darcy (b. 1330 Knayth, Ireland; d. 3/24/1389)
James Butler (b. 1361; d. 9/7/1405)
+Anne de Wells (b. 1365; d. 1396)
Richard Butler (b. 1394 Wicklow, England)
+Catherine O'Reilly
Edmund Butler (b. 1415 Wickow England; d. 6/13/1464 Tipperay, Ireland)
+Catherine Shile O'Carrol (b. 1417; d. 1506)
James Butler (b. 1437; d. 1487)
+Sowe Sarah Sabine Kavanaugh (b. 1440; d. 1503)
Piers Butler (b. 1467)
+Margaret de Windsor (b. 1480; d. 8/9/1542)
Thomas Butler (b. 1500; m. 1520; d. 1555)
+Joanne
Margaret Butler (b. 1540; d. 5/17/1578)
+William Baxter (b. 1550; d. 5/16/1583)
Susanna Baxter (b. 1575; d. 7/5/1596)
+Zachary Goodyear (b. 1578; d. 7/23/1613)
Stephen Goodyear (b. 11/26/1598; d. 5/27/1658)
+Mary (b. 1603; d. 1646)

+ + + + + + + + + +
Charlemagne to Stephen Goodyear

Charlemagne (b.4/2/778 Ingelheim; d.1/28/814 Ingelheim)
+Hildegard (b.757 Prussia; d. 783 Prussia)
Louis (Ludwig) I (b. 778 Ingelheim; d. 10/6/877)
+Judith of Altdorf (b. 800 Bavaria)
Charles II "the Bald" (b. 823 Frankfort, Germany; d. 10/6/877)
+Ermentrude (b. 9/27/830 Orleans, France; d. 10/6/869 Seine, France)
Baldwin I (b. 837; m. 863; d. 879)
+Judith of France (b. 846)
Baldwin II (b. 863; d. 918)
Aefthryth (b. 877; d. 929)
Jean De Conteville (b. 971 Contville, France; d. 1087)
+Spouse Unknown
Harlowen deConteville (b. 1001 Normandy, France; d. 1087)
+Arlotte de Falaize (b. 1003 Falaize, France; d. 1059)
Robert de Montaigne (b. 1037 Conteville, France; m. 1039; d. 1091
France)
+Maltilda (Maud) de Montgomery (b. 1039 Normandy, France)
William de Montaigne (b. 1062 Cornwall, England; d. 1140)
+Isabel FitzRichard De Clare (b. 1080)
Aldhelm de Montigne (b. 1085)
+Agnes Capet (b. 1138)
William de Burgh (b. 1157 Norfolk, England; d. 1198)
+Juliana D'Aisnel (b. 1112)
Walter de Burgh (b. 1133; d. 1179)
+Alice
William de Burgh (b. 1158 Norfolk, England; d. 1198 Tipperay, Ireland)
+More O'Brien
Richard "the Younger" de Burgh (b. 1198 Galway, Ireland; m. 1225; d.
1198)
+Egidia De Lacy (b. 1202 Meath, Ireland; d. 5/20/1274)
William Laith de Burgh (b. 1234 Connaught, Ireland; d. 1270)
+Avelina Fitzjohn b. 1232; d. 5/20/1274)
William de Burgh (b. 1295 Connaught, Ireland; d. 1343)
+ Unknown Spouse
Richard de Burgh (d. 1387)
+ Unknown Spouse
William de Burgh (d. 1423)
+Egelina de Courtenay
Mary de Burgh (b. 1400; d. 1435)
+James de Windsor (d. 1463)
Joan de Windsor (d. 1486)
+Thomas de Windsor (b. 1421; d. 3/25/1477)
Gerald de Windsor (b. 1455 Kildare, Ireland; d. 1513 Offaly, Ireland)
+Allison Fitz-Eustance (b. 1464 Meath, Ireland; d. 11/22/1495)
Margaret de Windsor (b. 1480 Kildare, Ireland; d. 8/9/1542)
+Piers Butler (b. 1467 Essex, England; d. 11/22/1495)
Thomas Butler (b. 1500; m. 1520; d. 1555)
+Joanne
Margaret Butler (b. 1540; d. 5/17/1578)
+William Baxter (b. 1550; d. 5/16/1583)
Susanna Baxter (b. 1575; d. 7/5/1596)
+Zachary Goodyear (b. 1578; d. 7/23/1613)
Stephen Goodyear (b. 11/26/1598; d. 5/27/1658)
+Mary (b. 1603; d. 1646)

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 16:39:05

Doug,

there's a 1561 marriage license for William Baxter and Margaret
Butler ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=xTIEAA ... ret+butler

Gjest

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2007 17:01:23

On 8 Aug., 15:27, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Geoffrey de Mandeville to Stephen Goodyear

Geoffrey de Mandevlle (b. 1165 Essex, England; d. 2/23/1216 London,
England)
+Aveline de Clare (b. 1172 Hereford, England; d. 6/4/1225)
John de Mandeville (b. 1215 Surry, England; d. 11/23/1258)
+Isabel Bigod (b. 1222 Norfolk, England; d. 1239)
Joan de Mandeville (b. 1242 Surry, England; d. 5/26/1303)
+Theobald Boteler (b. b. 1252 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 1285 Wicklow,
Ireland)
Edmund Boteler (b. 1271 Kilhenny, Ireland; d. London, England,
9/13/1321)
+Joan Fitz-Gerald (b. 1281 Fermoy, Ireland)
James Butler (b. 1306 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 2/17/1337)
+Eleanor de Bottun (b. 10/17/1304 Yorkshire, England; d. 10/7/1363)
James Butler (b. 1331; d. 10/18/1382)
+Elizabeth Darcy (b. 1330 Knayth, Ireland; d. 3/24/1389)
James Butler (b. 1361; d. 9/7/1405)
+Anne de Wells (b. 1365; d. 1396)
Richard Butler (b. 1394 Wicklow, England)
+Catherine O'Reilly
Edmund Butler (b. 1415 Wickow England; d. 6/13/1464 Tipperay, Ireland)
+Catherine Shile O'Carrol (b. 1417; d. 1506)
James Butler (b. 1437; d. 1487)
+Sowe Sarah Sabine Kavanaugh (b. 1440; d. 1503)
Piers Butler (b. 1467)
+Margaret de Windsor (b. 1480; d. 8/9/1542)

Aside from numerous small errors, solecisms and extranea above, the
line seems to break here: Piers, 1st Earl of Ossory and 8th Earl of
Ossory (c1467-1538) married Margaret Fitzgerald [here quaintly called
'de Windsor'] and had a younger son, Thomas, who was killed in 1532
during his father's feud with the Earl of Kildare - see ODNB, sub
Piers Butler.

Thomas Butler (b. 1500; m. 1520; d. 1555)
+Joanne

Given that Thomas, son of Piers, died in 1532, he cannot have fathered
a daughter in 1540.

Margaret Butler (b. 1540; d. 5/17/1578)
+William Baxter (b. 1550; d. 5/16/1583)
Susanna Baxter (b. 1575; d. 7/5/1596)
+Zachary Goodyear (b. 1578; d. 7/23/1613)
Stephen Goodyear (b. 11/26/1598; d. 5/27/1658)
+Mary (b. 1603; d. 1646)

Regards, Michael

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 17:36:39

The NEHGR states that Zachary Goodyear and Susanna Baxter married 5
July 1596 at St. Michael's, Cornhill ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=QT-TSB ... ear&pgis=1

I find the following extracted records in the IGI:

Saint Gregory by Saint Paul, London

--[___] Goodyere, son of Zachary, born about 12 Oct. 1597 (died 12
Oct.)
--Stephen Goodyere, son of Zachary, bapt. 26 Nov. 1598
--John Goodyeare, son of Zacharie, bapt. 16 Dec. 1599

It might be helpful to remember the name was sometimes spelled
"Goodiere."

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 19:38:21

Doug, noticing that your original chart said Susannah Baxter was born
1575, I checked the extracted IGI and found the following group of
children:

St Mary Bothaw, London

--Lewys Baxter, son of William, bapt. 22 Sept. 1567
--Grace Bakxster, dau. of william, bapt. 20 March 1569
--Sara Baxter, dau. of William, bapt. 23 Sept. 1571
--Wyllm. Baxster, son of William, bapt. 20 Sept. 1573 (d. 29 April
1578)
--Susane Baxter, dau. of william, bapt. 22 April 1575
--Ellyne Baxter, dau. of William, bapt. 30 Nov. 1576
--Sara Baxter, dau. of William, bapt. 8 May 1580

Then there's the 1589 marriage license of "Robert Gregorye, of St
Lawrence, Old Jewry, Salter, & Grace Baxter of St. Mary Magdalen, Old
Fish Street, Spinster, dau. of William Baxter, late of City of London,
Mercht Taylor, decd ..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=xTIEAA ... %22+london

This might be a place to start.

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 19:41:27

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Geoffrey de Mandevlle (b. 1165 Essex, England; d. 2/23/1216 London,
England)
+Aveline de Clare (b. 1172 Hereford, England; d. 6/4/1225) >>
--------------------------
Or Geoffrey Fitz Peter, 4th Earl of Essex
who did not die 2/23/1216
but rather 14 Oct 1213
the former date being reserved for his son
Geoffrey de Mandeville who did die on that date, but who was not born on 1165
but rather between 1183 and 1188
and who
did not marry Aveline de Clare, since he father had already done that
but rather married firstly Maud de Valoins
and secondly Jan 1213/4 Isabella de Clare Countess of Gloucester the "set-aside" wife of King John

Will

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 19:49:41

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
John de Mandeville (b. 1215 Surry, England; d. 11/23/1258)
+Isabel Bigod (b. 1222 Norfolk, England; d. 1239) >>

----------------

It should be noted here that we have *no* document that states John de Mandeville's age, so 1215 is a fiction.

Secondly Isabel Bigod who was previously married to Gilbert de Lacy of Ewyas Lacy and was presumably the mother of Margery de Lacy, Lady Dulek, cannot have been born as late as 1222 since Margery was already married and having children before 1250.

Isabel certainly could not have died in 1239, since she had five surviving children by her last husband Sir John FitzGeoffrey, Lord of Shere, Justiciar of England and they could not have married until 1234 at the latest.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2007 19:52:23

On 8 Aug., 19:41, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalances...@msn.com writes:
Geoffrey de Mandevlle (b. 1165 Essex, England; d. 2/23/1216 London,
England)
+Aveline de Clare (b. 1172 Hereford, England; d. 6/4/1225)
--------------------------
Or Geoffrey Fitz Peter, 4th Earl of Essex
who did not die 2/23/1216
but rather 14 Oct 1213
the former date being reserved for his son
Geoffrey de Mandeville who did die on that date, but who was not born on 1165
but rather between 1183 and 1188
and who
did not marry Aveline de Clare, since he father had already done that
but rather married firstly Maud de Valoins
and secondly Jan 1213/4 Isabella de Clare Countess of Gloucester the "set-aside" wife of King John

Will

Listing the errors would take days - e.g.

Margaret Butler (b. 1540; d. 5/17/1578)
+William Baxter (b. 1550; d. 5/16/1583)

Their marriage licence is from 1561 - was he an 11 year old groom?

Susanna Baxter (b. 1575; d. 7/5/1596)
+Zachary Goodyear (b. 1578; d. 7/23/1613)

Stephen Goodyear (b. 11/26/1598; d. 5/27/1658)

Miraculously born more than two years after his mother's
"death" [actually, her marriage date].

Deconstructing stuff of the "Mrs Lady de Windsor" school of genealogy
isn't much of a challenge...

MAR

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 19:55:46

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Joan de Mandeville (b. 1242 Surry, England; d. 5/26/1303)
+Theobald Boteler (b. b. 1252 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 1285 Wicklow,
Ireland) >>

-------------------------------
We have nothing that tells us Joan's age (why do people insist on doing this? it drives me insane)

Leo states that Theobald was born "abt 1242" and certainly he must have been born sometime between 1235 and 1248 the later date when his father was already known to be dead. It would be difficult for him to be born 4 years later wouldn't it.

Joan had to be born between 1234 and 1252 and its doubtful to me that she was called Joan "de Mandeville". Theobald died on 26 Sep 1285 per Leo's site.

They had two children, the elder son succeeded his father but died unmarried 14 May 1299. I cannot say if he was in his majority when he succeeded or not.

The younger son became Edmund de Boteler, Earl of Carrick and had a son "abt 1305"
So that gives you the framework. Anything more specific requires specific citations.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 20:03:49

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Edmund Boteler (b. 1271 Kilhenny, Ireland; d. London, England,
9/13/1321)
+Joan Fitz-Gerald (b. 1281 Fermoy, Ireland)
James Butler (b. 1306 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 2/17/1337)
+Eleanor de Bottun (b. 10/17/1304 Yorkshire, England; d. 10/7/1363) >>

---------------------
There is nothing to my knowledge that tells us when either Edmund or his wife Joan was born exactly. Stirnet says they married IN 1302. Leo has the heir born "abt 1305" and Edmund the father died in 1321. That's it. Stop creating arbitrary mythical dates, they only serve to confuse not clarify the families.

Joan was born in the latter half of the 13th century, she had a kid in 1305 *that doesn't make her 20 at the time*~!!!

Okay to move on.

James Butler died 1337/8 not 1337
We do not know his wifes exact birthdate (to my knowledge), but maybe we do. If so from what source? I do agree that she was born around 1303/4

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 20:10:58

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
James Butler (b. 1306 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 2/17/1337)
+Eleanor de Bottun (b. 10/17/1304 Yorkshire, England; d. 10/7/1363)
James Butler (b. 1331; d. 10/18/1382)
+Elizabeth Darcy (b. 1330 Knayth, Ireland; d. 3/24/1389) >>

---------------
I missed one so I have to back up.
Is "Eleanor de Bottun" supposed to be a joke? She was a Bohun, the eldest child of Humphrey VIII Baron de Bohun Earl of Hereford and Essex by his wife the Princess Elizabeth of England daughter of Edward I

James Butler died *at* Knocktopher Castle and was buried at Gowran.

Someone has confused the *two* wives of James Butler.
His first wife was Elizabeth Darcy of whom he had a dispensation to marry her dated 15 May 1346 and they had at least or exactly four children before she died. Her parentage is unknown to me.

His second wife was Anne Darcy of whom he had a son James Butler, 3rd Earl of Ormonde. Anne died 24 Mar 1389/90. She was the dau of John 1st Baron Darcy of Knath by his wife Joan de Burgh and she afterward married Sir Robert de Hereford.

This situation is covered in AR7

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 20:13:45

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
James Butler (b. 1361; d. 9/7/1405)
+Anne de Wells (b. 1365; d. 1396) >>

---------------
We don't know exactly when James Butler was born

We don't know exactly when Anne de Welles was born AND we don't know exactly when she died. She died sometime between 1 Jan 1396 and 12 Nov 1405

She certainly was not born in 1365 since her father had been dead already four years by that time.

WJhonson

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 aug 2007 20:22:47

<<In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Richard Butler (b. 1394 Wicklow, England)
+Catherine O'Reilly
Edmund Butler (b. 1415 Wickow England; d. 6/13/1464 Tipperay, Ireland)
+Catherine Shile O'Carrol (b. 1417; d. 1506)
James Butler (b. 1437; d. 1487)
+Sowe Sarah Sabine Kavanaugh (b. 1440; d. 1503)
Piers Butler (b. 1467) >>
---------------------------
Gentle reader.
From here to here the birthyears are made up, based on nothing. Please do not copy them and continue the legends.

I have no idea what "Catherine Shile O'Carrol" is supposed to mean. It's very unlikely she had a middle name, so I suppose they are trying to say she was a widow, but it's an obscure way to do it.

I have a hard time with the idea that a woman was named Sow, her birthdate again is fiction.

The birthdate of Piers is stated on Leo's site and we know that he *called* himself the Earl of Ormonde from 1515 to 1528 although there was no official recognition of that until 1538 a year before he kicked the bucket.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 20:53:56

Deconstructing stuff of the "Mrs Lady de Windsor" school of genealogy
isn't much of a challenge...

MAR

Yes, it is pretty cheap and easy (and, therefore, I would have
thought, beneath you).

taf

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av taf » 08 aug 2007 21:06:11

On Aug 8, 7:27 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

I've copied below two alleged royal lines of descent for Governor
Stephen Goodyear. These descents were sent to me this past week by a
Goodyear family descendant. I'd appreciate comments from anyone
regarding these lines.


Baldwin II (b. 863; d. 918)
Aefthryth (b. 877; d. 929)
Jean De Conteville (b. 971 Contville, France; d. 1087)
+Spouse Unknown

You're kidding, right? You need comment on a line that shows a 94
year generation leading to a man with a 116 year lifespan?

Harlowen deConteville (b. 1001 Normandy, France; d. 1087)
+Arlotte de Falaize (b. 1003 Falaize, France; d. 1059)
Robert de Montaigne (b. 1037 Conteville, France; m. 1039; d. 1091
France)

This is, of course Robert of Mortain, brother of William the
Conqueror. What do you think of a descent showing male-line descent
from him?

+Maltilda (Maud) de Montgomery (b. 1039 Normandy, France)
William de Montaigne (b. 1062 Cornwall, England; d. 1140)
+Isabel FitzRichard De Clare (b. 1080)
Aldhelm de Montigne (b. 1085)

Oh, that's cute - when his mother was 5?

+Agnes Capet (b. 1138)
William de Burgh (b. 1157 Norfolk, England; d. 1198)
+Juliana D'Aisnel (b. 1112)

45 years younger than his wife?

Did you even bother to look at this before you posted it?

taf

Gjest

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2007 21:12:24

On 8 Aug., 17:01, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 8 Aug., 15:27, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:





Geoffrey de Mandeville to Stephen Goodyear

Geoffrey de Mandevlle (b. 1165 Essex, England; d. 2/23/1216 London,
England)
+Aveline de Clare (b. 1172 Hereford, England; d. 6/4/1225)
John de Mandeville (b. 1215 Surry, England; d. 11/23/1258)
+Isabel Bigod (b. 1222 Norfolk, England; d. 1239)
Joan de Mandeville (b. 1242 Surry, England; d. 5/26/1303)
+Theobald Boteler (b. b. 1252 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 1285 Wicklow,
Ireland)
Edmund Boteler (b. 1271 Kilhenny, Ireland; d. London, England,
9/13/1321)
+Joan Fitz-Gerald (b. 1281 Fermoy, Ireland)
James Butler (b. 1306 Wicklow, Ireland; d. 2/17/1337)
+Eleanor de Bottun (b. 10/17/1304 Yorkshire, England; d. 10/7/1363)
James Butler (b. 1331; d. 10/18/1382)
+Elizabeth Darcy (b. 1330 Knayth, Ireland; d. 3/24/1389)
James Butler (b. 1361; d. 9/7/1405)
+Anne de Wells (b. 1365; d. 1396)
Richard Butler (b. 1394 Wicklow, England)
+Catherine O'Reilly
Edmund Butler (b. 1415 Wickow England; d. 6/13/1464 Tipperay, Ireland)
+Catherine Shile O'Carrol (b. 1417; d. 1506)
James Butler (b. 1437; d. 1487)
+Sowe Sarah Sabine Kavanaugh (b. 1440; d. 1503)
Piers Butler (b. 1467)
+Margaret de Windsor (b. 1480; d. 8/9/1542)

Aside from numerous small errors, solecisms and extranea above, the
line seems to break here: Piers, 1st Earl of Ossory and 8th Earl of
Ossory

Recte - 8th Earl of *Ormonde*

[thanks to Will 'Eagle-Eyed' Johnson]

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 21:23:42

Did you even bother to look at this before you posted it?

taf

Toddy (:-)), all the dates are whacky if you look closely (for
instance Zachary Goodyear (b. 1578), husband of Susanna Baxter (b.
1575), daughter of William Baxter (b. 1550), husband of Margaret
Butler (b. 1540). Yet the known dates for the Baxter-Butler and
Goodyear-Baxter marriages are, respectively, 1561 and 1596.

I think the stuff I posted above is all that can be concluded (if even
that) -- but maybe someone knows of an aristocratically descended
Margaret Butler who married a Mr. Baxter, merchant taylor, in this
period.

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 aug 2007 22:25:44

Margaret Butler (b. 1540; d. 5/17/1578)
+William Baxter (b. 1550; d. 5/16/1583)

The following PCC will looks interesting (notice that the dates even
agree, sorta) ...

Will of William Baxster, Merchant Tailor of London 24 May 1583
PROB 11/65

Leo van de Pas

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 08 aug 2007 23:03:20

See below

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent


In a message dated 08/08/07 07:30:20 Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Richard Butler (b. 1394 Wicklow, England)
+Catherine O'Reilly
Edmund Butler (b. 1415 Wickow England; d. 6/13/1464 Tipperay, Ireland)
+Catherine Shile O'Carrol (b. 1417; d. 1506)
James Butler (b. 1437; d. 1487)
+Sowe Sarah Sabine Kavanaugh (b. 1440; d. 1503)
Piers Butler (b. 1467)
---------------------------
Gentle reader.
From here to here the birthyears are made up, based on nothing. Please do
not copy them and continue the legends.

I have no idea what "Catherine Shile O'Carrol" is supposed to mean. It's
very unlikely she had a middle name, so I suppose they are trying to say
she was a widow, but it's an obscure way to do it.

I have a hard time with the idea that a woman was named Sow, her birthdate
again is fiction.

The birthdate of Piers is stated on Leo's site and we know that he
*called* himself the Earl of Ormonde from 1515 to 1528 although there was
no official recognition of that until 1538 a year before he kicked the
bucket.

Will Johnson

The year 1467 as year of birth for Piers Butler, I found in Gerald Paget's
book on the ancestors of HRH Prince Charles. Because of this message I
looked up the Complete Peerage Volume X page 133. Here is stated that he was
_de Jure_ Earl of Ormond since 1515 and this was confirmed in 1538. Again
his year of birth is given as 1467 with an interesting footnote.

The marriage of Sir Piers's parents was preceded by a royal letter of
denization in May 1467, releasing Sabine and "all the issue between them
begotten ands to be begotten "from all" Irish servitude." As James and
Sabine were within the forbidden degrees of affinity, Sir Piers obtained in
1513 a papal declaration validating their marriage. Sir Piers had two elder
brothers , born after their parents betrothal but "before the spousels
betwixte them".An act passed by the Irish parliament in 1468 legitimated
these two brothers, Edmund and Theobald, but their father in his will refers
to Piers "my natural and lawful son, my true heir."

Can we read in this that Piers was born "after May 1467" ? And his parents
married "about May 1467" ?

With best wishes,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



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Peter Stewart

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 aug 2007 23:37:00

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1186603571.988151.165750@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 8, 7:27 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

I've copied below two alleged royal lines of descent for Governor
Stephen Goodyear. These descents were sent to me this past week by a
Goodyear family descendant. I'd appreciate comments from anyone
regarding these lines.

<snip>

Did you even bother to look at this before you posted it?

Why would the trained, professional charlatan bother to look over the
rubbish he was sent before posting it? Presumably this was sent to him by a
client, whom he can now gyp either by charging for the time & effort of
others at correcting the nonsense, or by representing this as a favour on
his own part?

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 aug 2007 07:45:27

As clearly stated in Mr. Richardson's post today on Governor
Goodyear's ALLEGED royal ancestry, the information was offered without
ANY correction or modification. The alleged royal descents were taken
from UNSOURCED, UNATTRIBUTED, and likely UNRELIEABLE material The
purpose of the post was to solicit helpful followup responses like
those which were subsequently posted by Mr. Brandon. Kudos to John
Brandon.

Peter Stewart

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 aug 2007 09:52:21

<Joan.E.Richardson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186641927.872097.133870@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
As clearly stated in Mr. Richardson's post today on Governor
Goodyear's ALLEGED royal ancestry, the information was offered without
ANY correction or modification. The alleged royal descents were taken
from UNSOURCED, UNATTRIBUTED, and likely UNRELIEABLE material The
purpose of the post was to solicit helpful followup responses like
those which were subsequently posted by Mr. Brandon. Kudos to John
Brandon.

More rot, from the man himself or a family member. "Mr Richardson" indeed.

The purpose of the post was not to learn anything, but to earn something.
That is perfectly obvious from the stupidity of the material posted, beneath
even Richardson's level of foolishness much less any professional dignity.
He couldn't bother doing the look-up chores for himself, so decided to
exploit the willingness of SGM readers to correct all the mistakes, or at
least enough to make him look thorough & conscientious when he passes back
the results to his unsuspecting client, most probably seeking a misbegotten
fee for himself in return for input solicited from others under an absurd
false pretext ("I believe we learn just as much in disproving a bad line of
descent, as we do in proving a good one" - the fraudster's code for "I
believe I can earn just as much from other people's work as from my own").

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av John Brandon » 09 aug 2007 15:36:07

rubbish he was sent before posting it? Presumably this was sent to him by a
client, whom he can now gyp either by charging for the time & effort of

Try not to be racist, okay? We know it must be hard for a dyed-in-the-
wool aristocratic snob such as yourself. Also, I don't see at all why
it must be "presumed" (? assumed) the original information was sent
to Doug by a client.

He must be doing something right if his innocent-enough posting is
sending you into a meltdown of rage and disdain ... =_)

pj.evans

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av pj.evans » 09 aug 2007 17:41:27

On Aug 9, 1:52 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Joan.E.Richard...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1186641927.872097.133870@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

As clearly stated in Mr. Richardson's post today on Governor
Goodyear's ALLEGED royal ancestry, the information was offered without
ANY correction or modification. The alleged royal descents were taken
from UNSOURCED, UNATTRIBUTED, and likely UNRELIEABLE material The
purpose of the post was to solicit helpful followup responses like
those which were subsequently posted by Mr. Brandon. Kudos to John
Brandon.

More rot, from the man himself or a family member. "Mr Richardson" indeed.

The purpose of the post was not to learn anything, but to earn something.
That is perfectly obvious from the stupidity of the material posted, beneath
even Richardson's level of foolishness much less any professional dignity.
He couldn't bother doing the look-up chores for himself, so decided to
exploit the willingness of SGM readers to correct all the mistakes, or at
least enough to make him look thorough & conscientious when he passes back
the results to his unsuspecting client, most probably seeking a misbegotten
fee for himself in return for input solicited from others under an absurd
false pretext ("I believe we learn just as much in disproving a bad line of
descent, as we do in proving a good one" - the fraudster's code for "I
believe I can earn just as much from other people's work as from my own").

Peter Stewart


Did you miss the part near the beginning?
I see various problems with the earlier generations in both descents
below. Regardless, I've left the descents exactly as they were sent
to me without any corrections.

I suspect he was wondering if the Richardson-bashers can do more than
just bash Richardson.
(No, I wouldn't have done something like this without first working on
it myself. YMMV.)

taf

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av taf » 09 aug 2007 18:44:18

On Aug 8, 11:45 pm, Joan.E.Richard...@gmail.com wrote:
As clearly stated in Mr. Richardson's post today on Governor
Goodyear's ALLEGED royal ancestry, the information was offered without
ANY correction or modification.

Yes, quite. Why would that be? posting a line with obvious blatant
errors, without the least indication of the nature of these problems.
Not a very helpful.

The alleged royal descents were taken
from UNSOURCED, UNATTRIBUTED, and likely UNRELIEABLE material The
purpose of the post was to solicit helpful followup responses like
those which were subsequently posted by Mr. Brandon.

Indeed. To solicit helpful responses, without himself being helpful.
Looks a bit like a one-way street, taking but not giving (well, that
or treating the group as nothing but an acting troupe, with no other
role than to perform for him).


By the way, Google Groups shows just one other post to
soc.genealogy.medieval coming from this Joan E. Richardson, on April
29 (thread "Lady Joan Pleche . . ."). That post, from this very same
gmail account was signed "DR". It's text was identical, word for word,
to a second post in that thread coming from "Douglas Richardson".
However, here we read of "Mr. Richardson", as if he were entirely
unknown to the poster - curious that, "Joan".

All in all, not a good way to make friends.

taf

John Brandon

Re: Transvestites was Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal d

Legg inn av John Brandon » 09 aug 2007 20:21:39

Perhaps we should take up a subscription to pay for Douglas to complete his sex change. There is a claim that not all transvestites really want a sex change, but I'm not sure it's scientific. I wonder how tall Douglas is? I've never really felt that transsexuals over 6'2" were able to pass.

And then there's the matter of how large his hands are. A really good transvestite needs small hands, otherwise it's too obvious.

Will
--------------------------------

Yeah, yeah, cute and all, but don't get too carried away. It's well
known that Doug's daughters are named Elizabeth, Mary, Avyette, and
Joan:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIR ... PR5-IA2,M1

John Brandon

Re: Transvestites was Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal d

Legg inn av John Brandon » 09 aug 2007 21:16:13

I don't understand how Douglas can possibly find time to write these large books with six children. How old is Douglas anyway?

Will


I assume the following cataloging data is correct ...

100 1 Richardson, Douglas, 1951-
245 1 4 The Eno and Enos family in America : descendants of James Eno
of Windsor, Conn. /

But how old are you, Will, and how many children do you have?

John Brandon

Re: Transvestites was Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal d

Legg inn av John Brandon » 09 aug 2007 21:40:37

I am thirty thirteen and have no children.

3013 -- now that's elderly!

Peter Stewart

Re: Stephen Goodyear's alleged royal descent

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 aug 2007 23:09:47

"pj.evans" <pj.evans.gen@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1186677687.270844.27630@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 9, 1:52 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Joan.E.Richard...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1186641927.872097.133870@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

As clearly stated in Mr. Richardson's post today on Governor
Goodyear's ALLEGED royal ancestry, the information was offered without
ANY correction or modification. The alleged royal descents were taken
from UNSOURCED, UNATTRIBUTED, and likely UNRELIEABLE material The
purpose of the post was to solicit helpful followup responses like
those which were subsequently posted by Mr. Brandon. Kudos to John
Brandon.

More rot, from the man himself or a family member. "Mr Richardson"
indeed.

The purpose of the post was not to learn anything, but to earn something.
That is perfectly obvious from the stupidity of the material posted,
beneath
even Richardson's level of foolishness much less any professional
dignity.
He couldn't bother doing the look-up chores for himself, so decided to
exploit the willingness of SGM readers to correct all the mistakes, or at
least enough to make him look thorough & conscientious when he passes
back
the results to his unsuspecting client, most probably seeking a
misbegotten
fee for himself in return for input solicited from others under an absurd
false pretext ("I believe we learn just as much in disproving a bad line
of
descent, as we do in proving a good one" - the fraudster's code for "I
believe I can earn just as much from other people's work as from my
own").

Peter Stewart


Did you miss the part near the beginning?
I see various problems with the earlier generations in both descents
below. Regardless, I've left the descents exactly as they were sent
to me without any corrections.

Um no, of course I didn't miss this - it makes absolutley no difference.
Richardson obviously wasn't going to pretend that the trash was his own work
or endorsed by him, and was just as obviously going to draw attention to its
multiple errors in order to attract the interest of readers.

I suspect he was wondering if the Richardson-bashers can do more than
just bash Richardson.

Oh yes, that makes sense - Richardson would post here with a strikingly
obvious ulterior motive just to see if anyone saw through him, then rely on
the few who can't to defend him with preposterous suggestions such as this.

(No, I wouldn't have done something like this without first working on
it myself. YMMV.)

And why would not Richardson, if his motives were honest & he didn't have
time to make corrections himself, simply advise the correspondent about the
helpfulness of SGM and suggest posting the material here personally? Why
whould he take this on himself, making a fool of himself in the process, in
order to pass back the answers unless he was intending to represent these as
his own work?

It's truly astonishing that anyone here can't see Richardson for the
deceitful parasite that he is.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Stephen Goodyear's Alleged Royal Descent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 aug 2007 05:01:13

Peter is indeed a VERY desperate and spiteful man.

Pitifully So...

DSH

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:LgMui.17679$4A1.11676@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

It's truly astonishing that anyone here can't see Richardson for the
deceitful parasite that he is.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Stephen Goodyear's Alleged Royal Descent

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 aug 2007 08:56:55

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:wqRui.23$wi6.219@eagle.america.net...
Peter is indeed a VERY desperate and spiteful man.

Pitifully So...

DSH

Ho hum - no crossposting for a change. Hines is still as forgetful as he is
contemptible. Try the messages from him copied below, before he mortally
wounded his own pride by displaying his ignorance of Latin. The archive has
LOTS more of these to regale us, for as long as the idiot wishes to
continue.....

Peter Stewart


From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemidden@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Guillaume de Fiennes and his wife, Agnes de Dammartin
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:27:00 +0100
References: <5cf47a19.0407121321.12f36d2b@posting.google.com>
<5cf47a19.0407131656.2f1a7e46@posting.google.com>
<R02Jc.300$K53.85@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
<5cf47a19.0407140823.3dd80c0e@posting.google.com>
Hilarious!

Richardson is STILL trying to get SGM/GEN-MEDIEVAL regulars to write his
next book for him -- and serve as unpaid research assistants.

Fools, and there ARE a few here, will fall right into his trap.

Great Entertainment!

Watch DR The Con-Artist At Work.

He's even trying to poach off Leo van de Pas's website and get folks to
digitize the data for him in order to make his copy-editing far easier.

The last thing Richardson wants to do is buckle down and do some HONEST
digging and focused scholarly work in Genealogy and History.

As many of you will remember, I tried to tutor Richardson and lead him
into paths of righteousness and honorable behavior ---- but he would not
cooperate and simply turned the techniques I taught him to dishonest and
nefarious ends -- including the use of sock-puppets as shills and
"beaters" [similar to the beaters who flush out pheasant or grouse for
the hunters].

A Sad Performance By Richardson -- A Sad Performance Indeed.

And Now He's Trying To Wheedle More Genuine Genealogical Information Out
Of Peter Stewart, By Guile, Chicanery And Goading.

D. Spencer Hines


From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemidden@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Guillaume de Fiennes and his wife, Agnes de Dammartin
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:59:27 +0100
References: <5cf47a19.0407121321.12f36d2b@posting.google.com>
<5cf47a19.0407131656.2f1a7e46@posting.google.com>
<R02Jc.300$K53.85@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
<5cf47a19.0407140823.3dd80c0e@posting.google.com>
<NQdJc.283$ac7.7920@eagle.america.net>
<5cf47a19.0407141506.68b2440e@posting.google.com>
Nonsense... Vide infra pro risibus.

I tutored Richardson quite extensively for well over two years -- in
private emails, which contained much frank critique, with the bark both
on and off -- and public encouragement.

I taught him how to research, write, edit and market his book, PA3, and
gave him all sorts of Management and Marketing 101 hints as to how to
proceed to attract buyers.

I also taught him how to proceed with scholarly integrity, accuracy and
honest forthrightness.

He was so grateful he promised me a copy of PA3 ---- but I never trusted
his word on that ---- and I was quite right of course. He reneged.

From what I hear of the book, I'm not missing anything significant ----
because he did not take my lessons to heart.

He simply used them to carry out a fraudulent Marketing Campaign on
SGM/GEN-MEDIEVAL and deep-sixed the substance I had taught him about
doing things The Right Way ---- with scholarly integrity and hard work.

Therefore the resultant book is reportedly very uneven indeed and filled
with many errors that should have been corrected either in the drafting
or in proof.

Richardson seems to have a severe personality defect in that he dearly
loves to pick people's brains and get them to provide _gratis_ services
to him, but then wants to toot his own horn exclusively and take credit
for the work of others.

It's a well-known character flaw of Richardson's, which others here have
already extensively commented upon.

Peter Stewart has no such problems or character flaws -- as anyone who
reads his posts carefully and seriously can readily see for him or
herself.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Douglas Richardson" < royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news: 5cf47a19.0407141506.68b2440e@posting.google.com...

| No offense, Spencer, but I'm doing quite well without any tutoring
| from you. I do think Peter Stewart could use some help, though.
| Peter is infamous for his "sketchy and incomplete research." Perhaps
| you can share some of your valuable research techniques with him. I
| know he'd be a better man for it.
|
| Now how about if we get back to discussing the Fiennes family. You
| were saying .....
|
| Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Svar

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