Is Countess a given name? was Fw: Mother of Roger de Cliffor

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Leo van de Pas

Is Countess a given name? was Fw: Mother of Roger de Cliffor

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 aug 2007 08:35:29

The lady was French, her given name was Comtesse, do we have to translate
that into English? I don't think so.

Richardson maintains that _Countess_ is a given name. Can he give us an
example? This Countess of Loreto does not fill the bill, the name given to
her was _Comtesse_...................or do I see this wrong?

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra



---- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Mother of Roger de Clifford d. 1282


On Aug 6, 8:08 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
As a follow-up question, I'm not understanding how Contessa,
Countess of Loretto is related to the other people you named, the
Courtenay's, Dampierre's,etc.

I'm missing how they link together.

Will

There really isn't much of a mystery here. The given name of Sir
Roger de Clifford's second wife was Countess (or, if you prefer,
Comtesse). She was also styled Countess of Loretto. I can cite
English records which bear this out. Countess is a female given name
in this time period. It is also a title. In this case, the woman's
given name was Countess, and she also had the title of Countess. This
is a bit confusing, needless to say.

My guess is that Countess, wife of Sir Roger, was the surviving widow
of Raoul de Courtenay, Count of Chieti in Italy, who died in 1271.
Countess, wife of Sir Roger, would thus be the step-mother of Mahaut
de Courtenay, Countess of Chieti, who was the wife of Philip of
Flanders.

Countess, wife of Sir Roger de Clifford, died in 1301. Philip of
Flanders began appearing in English records as Count of Loretto in
1304, following Countess de Clifford's' death. I haven't yet
confirmed that Raoul de Courtenay, Philippe's father-in-law, was known
as Count of Loretto. My research so far indicates only that Raoul was
given Chieti in Italy in 1269, shortly before his death in 1271 by
King Charles of Naples. He may possible have been given Loretto at
the same time as Chieti.

Inasmuch as Countess and Sir Roger were married in France, it's likely
guess that Countess was of French origin like Raoul de Courtenay.
Beyond this, I have nothing fiurther to add to this discussion at this
time.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah





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