Plantagenet Ancestry

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D. Spencer Hines

Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 aug 2007 22:50:55

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.

We usually hit it a glancing blow, questions are asked -- some tentative,
partial, answers are given. Some stock quotations from the _Complete
Peerage_ are trotted out. Misimpressions are created and locked in and we
move on. Typical newsgroup behaviour. Similar to a singles bar, with hard
rock drowning out any serious conversations -- as the body exchange rolls
on. Vide the Saga of Hippo-Troll and "La Nilita" -- far more interesting
than the passion of _Tristan And Isolde.

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete explanation.

So, in the spirit of Henry V [1387-1422] at Harfleur, "Once more unto the
breach, dear friends, once more; Or close up the wall with our English
dead!" [Henry V, III, i, 1-2.] I humbly provide the following explanation
of the History of 'Plantagenet' as a sobriquet transformed into a surrogate
surname. [N.B. Henry V is the 7th great-grandson of Geoffroi V 'le Bel',
comte d'Anjou et Maine.]

Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.

Although the practice is well-established, it has little historical
justification. The name Plantagenet seems to have originated as a sobriquet
or nickname for Count Geoffrey. It has variously been explained as
referring to his practice of wearing a sprig or branch of yellow broom
(Latin: [planta] genista; Old French: plante genêt) in his helm, or more
probably to his habit of planting brooms to improve his hunting cover.

[N.B. Birds will nest under the small broom bushes or shrubs and hunters may
hide behind them.] Both explanations may well be true ---- as they are by
no means mutually exclusive.

"Plantagenet" was not, by any means, a hereditary surname and Geoffrey's
progeny remained without one for more than 300 years, although surnames
became common outside the Royal Family.

Henry II 'Curtmantle' FitzEmpress [1133-1189] [son of Geoffrey and Matilda
The Empress] and his own sons, Richard I and John I, are now generally
styled by historians as the Angevin (from Anjou) kings. For want of a
better name, their successors, notably Henry III, Edward I, Edward II,
Edward III, and Richard II are still described as Plantagenets.

Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI may properly be called the House of
Lancaster; while Edward IV, Edward V and Richard III constitute the monarchs
of the House of York. Edward V, of course, is a quite special case who
hardly "reigned" as king and reportedly died in the Tower of London at 12,
one of the two 'Princes in the Tower.'

The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House of
York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House of York was later
identified with the White Rose and the House of Lancaster with the Red Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.

The legitimate male issue, in the agnatic line, of Count Geoffrey
'Plantagenet' and Matilda The Empress became extinct with the death, in
1499, of Edward, [1475-1499] 18th Earl of Warwick, grandson of Richard, 3rd
Duke of York.

He was the son of George [1449-1478], Duke of Clarence, who allegedly met
his end in the Tower of London as did his son, but George was supposedly
drowned in the famous butt of Malmsey. The Madeira Wine, "Duke of Clarence"
is named after this event. It is quite palatable, with good body and a bit
of a nose.

Henry VII resented Edward, 18th Earl of Warwick's proximity to the throne
and he was executed at the Tower of London on 28 Nov 1499. Edward was
imprisoned for many years and not allowed to have a tutor, according to some
accounts. Therefore, Henry VII allegedly kept him ignorant and
uneducated -- by design. Clever fellow -- and Machiavellian Prince
indeed -- was that rogue Henry Tudor.

Vide the second edition of George Edward Cokayne's [1825-1911] _The Complete
Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom,
Extant, Extinct or Dormant_; Microprint Edition (half-size in 6 volumes,
condensed from 13); 26 cm; LOC CS421 .C7 1982; Dewey # 929.7/2 19; ISBN
(set) 0904387828; Nobility -- British Isles [First Edition: (1887-1898);
Second Edition (1910-1959). New York, Saint Martin's Press, 1984,
[Reprinted from the British (Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd.) version] 13
volumes in 6; also, previously, Gloucester: A. Sutton, 1982 (also 13 v. in
6; 26 cm)

[The Sutton version is a reprint of the Second Edition], Volume I
(originally published in 1910), p. 183, note (c):

"It is much to be wished that the surname "Plantagenet," which, since the
time of Charles II, has been freely given to all the descendants of Geoffrey
of Anjou, had some historical basis which would justify its use, for it
forms a most convenient method of referring to the Edwardian kings and their
numerous descendants. The fact is, however, as has been pointed out by Sir
James Ramsay and other writers of our day, that the name, although a
personal emblem [N. B. Latin *planta genista* = broom --- DSH] of the
aforesaid Geoffrey, was never borne by any of his descendants before Richard
Plantagenet, Duke of York (father of Edward IV), [N.B. and also of Richard
III --- DSH] who assumed it, apparently about 1448. V.G."

"V.G." is Vicary Gibbs, one of the Editors of the Second Edition of the
Complete Peerage.

This is obviously a quite complex and multi-faceted account ---- subject to
differing interpretations and shadings. Corrections, additions and
clarifications are most welcome and should be posted to the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth.... This
is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond itself."
Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]

Illegitimis Non Carborundum.

"For by diligent perusing the actes of great men, by considering all the
circumstances of them, by composing Counseiles and Meanes with events, a man
may seem to have lived in all ages, to have been present at all enterprises,
to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement, to have attained a greater
experience than the longest life can possibly afford."

John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman Kings of England, William the
First, William the Second and Henry I__, London, 1612, Preface

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Fortem Posce Animum

Deus Vult

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Pax Vobiscum

Sholem Aleichem

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved

wjhonson

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av wjhonson » 01 aug 2007 23:31:13

On Aug 1, 2:50 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House of
York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House of York was later
identified with the White Rose and the House of Lancaster with the Red Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.

-----------------------

There was a book by Carew which uses the name, and claims that it's
copying details from the Conquest of Ireland by some Thomas Bray,
although a later commentor noted that there is nothing in the
manuscript to indicate who wrote it. Interesting that Plantagenet is
in the index.

Lambeth Palace Library: Manuscripts [MSS 113 - 600]
Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. MSS
Creator(s):
Lambeth Palace Library


FILE - ENGLISH VOYAGES ETC. - ref. MSS 250 - date: n.d
[from Scope and Content] 2 Historical account of the Black Prince
in the hand of George Carew apparently written in 1610 (f.28). Begins:
'Edward Plantagenet the first sonne unto that prudent, religious and
triumphant monarche kinge Edward the third'. It ends with the siege of
Calais, and is followed (f.54) by notes from Froissart and Stow
apparently intended for a continuation (ff.25-28v).

Carew Manuscripts

FILE - Carew Manuscript - ref. MS 596 [n.d.]
item: NAMES mentioned in the CHRONICLE, and other documents
contained in this volume. - ref. MS 596. not paged [n.d.]
[from Scope and Content] Pheipo. Plantagenet, co. Lanc.
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet, fil. Regis. Power.

FILE - Carew Manuscript: Chronicle of the Conquest of Ireland -
ref. MS 598 - date: c1400
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet, D. Lancaster. Plant., Pr.
Wales.
item: A LIST OF NAMES in the Manuscript of the CONQUEST OF
IRELAND [by Bray]. - ref. MS 598, p. 1 - date: Undated
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet. Power.

Peter Jason

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Jason » 02 aug 2007 00:23:31

Curious, how centuries of obfuscation, gilded
manuscripts, venal pandering, religious
alliances, snobisme, poor memories, and venal
real-politique can disguise the action of
rapacious bandits, murderers, bullies, inbred
half-wits, anal-retentives and paranoid
lunatics.

Richard III was the only good one among them
all.


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com>
wrote in message
news:Pf7si.275$in6.2031@eagle.america.net...
"Plantagenet." This matter comes up
regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.

We usually hit it a glancing blow,
questions are asked -- some tentative,
partial, answers are given. Some stock
quotations from the _Complete
Peerage_ are trotted out. Misimpressions
are created and locked in and we
move on. Typical newsgroup behaviour.
Similar to a singles bar, with hard
rock drowning out any serious
conversations -- as the body exchange rolls
on. Vide the Saga of Hippo-Troll and "La
Nilita" -- far more interesting
than the passion of _Tristan And Isolde.

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve
a more complete explanation.

So, in the spirit of Henry V [1387-1422] at
Harfleur, "Once more unto the
breach, dear friends, once more; Or close
up the wall with our English
dead!" [Henry V, III, i, 1-2.] I humbly
provide the following explanation
of the History of 'Plantagenet' as a
sobriquet transformed into a surrogate
surname. [N.B. Henry V is the 7th
great-grandson of Geoffroi V 'le Bel',
comte d'Anjou et Maine.]

Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of
Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a
surname, is commonly applied to
members of the Royal House of England
between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union
between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda,
[1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ----
he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first
wife, Matilda of Scotland.

Although the practice is well-established,
it has little historical
justification. The name Plantagenet seems
to have originated as a sobriquet
or nickname for Count Geoffrey. It has
variously been explained as
referring to his practice of wearing a
sprig or branch of yellow broom
(Latin: [planta] genista; Old French:
plante genêt) in his helm, or more
probably to his habit of planting brooms to
improve his hunting cover.

[N.B. Birds will nest under the small broom
bushes or shrubs and hunters may
hide behind them.] Both explanations may
well be true ---- as they are by
no means mutually exclusive.

"Plantagenet" was not, by any means, a
hereditary surname and Geoffrey's
progeny remained without one for more than
300 years, although surnames
became common outside the Royal Family.

Henry II 'Curtmantle' FitzEmpress
[1133-1189] [son of Geoffrey and Matilda
The Empress] and his own sons, Richard I
and John I, are now generally
styled by historians as the Angevin (from
Anjou) kings. For want of a
better name, their successors, notably
Henry III, Edward I, Edward II,
Edward III, and Richard II are still
described as Plantagenets.

Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI may properly
be called the House of
Lancaster; while Edward IV, Edward V and
Richard III constitute the monarchs
of the House of York. Edward V, of course,
is a quite special case who
hardly "reigned" as king and reportedly
died in the Tower of London at 12,
one of the two 'Princes in the Tower.'

The first official use of the surname
Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd
Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard
Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of
England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His
attempts to gain power for his House of
York, coupled with many other personal,
dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses
(1455-1485). The House of York was later
identified with the White Rose and the
House of Lancaster with the Red Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York,
was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.

The legitimate male issue, in the agnatic
line, of Count Geoffrey
'Plantagenet' and Matilda The Empress
became extinct with the death, in
1499, of Edward, [1475-1499] 18th Earl of
Warwick, grandson of Richard, 3rd
Duke of York.

He was the son of George [1449-1478], Duke
of Clarence, who allegedly met
his end in the Tower of London as did his
son, but George was supposedly
drowned in the famous butt of Malmsey. The
Madeira Wine, "Duke of Clarence"
is named after this event. It is quite
palatable, with good body and a bit
of a nose.

Henry VII resented Edward, 18th Earl of
Warwick's proximity to the throne
and he was executed at the Tower of London
on 28 Nov 1499. Edward was
imprisoned for many years and not allowed
to have a tutor, according to some
accounts. Therefore, Henry VII allegedly
kept him ignorant and
uneducated -- by design. Clever fellow --
and Machiavellian Prince
indeed -- was that rogue Henry Tudor.

Vide the second edition of George Edward
Cokayne's [1825-1911] _The Complete
Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland,
Great Britain and the United Kingdom,
Extant, Extinct or Dormant_; Microprint
Edition (half-size in 6 volumes,
condensed from 13); 26 cm; LOC CS421 .C7
1982; Dewey # 929.7/2 19; ISBN
(set) 0904387828; Nobility -- British Isles
[First Edition: (1887-1898);
Second Edition (1910-1959). New York,
Saint Martin's Press, 1984,
[Reprinted from the British (Alan Sutton
Publishing, Ltd.) version] 13
volumes in 6; also, previously, Gloucester:
A. Sutton, 1982 (also 13 v. in
6; 26 cm)

[The Sutton version is a reprint of the
Second Edition], Volume I
(originally published in 1910), p. 183,
note (c):

"It is much to be wished that the surname
"Plantagenet," which, since the
time of Charles II, has been freely given
to all the descendants of Geoffrey
of Anjou, had some historical basis which
would justify its use, for it
forms a most convenient method of referring
to the Edwardian kings and their
numerous descendants. The fact is,
however, as has been pointed out by Sir
James Ramsay and other writers of our day,
that the name, although a
personal emblem [N. B. Latin *planta
genista* = broom --- DSH] of the
aforesaid Geoffrey, was never borne by any
of his descendants before Richard
Plantagenet, Duke of York (father of Edward
IV), [N.B. and also of Richard
III --- DSH] who assumed it, apparently
about 1448. V.G."

"V.G." is Vicary Gibbs, one of the Editors
of the Second Edition of the
Complete Peerage.

This is obviously a quite complex and
multi-faceted account ---- subject to
differing interpretations and shadings.
Corrections, additions and
clarifications are most welcome and should
be posted to the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines,
All Rights Reserved

"The final happiness of man consists in the
contemplation of truth.... This
is sought for its own sake, and is directed
to no other end beyond itself."
Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa
Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]

Illegitimis Non Carborundum.

"For by diligent perusing the actes of
great men, by considering all the
circumstances of them, by composing
Counseiles and Meanes with events, a man
may seem to have lived in all ages, to have
been present at all enterprises,
to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement,
to have attained a greater
experience than the longest life can
possibly afford."

John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman
Kings of England, William the
First, William the Second and Henry I__,
London, 1612, Preface

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Fortem Posce Animum

Deus Vult

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Pax Vobiscum

Sholem Aleichem

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines,
All Rights Reserved


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 aug 2007 01:11:57

Yes...

Interesting...

I simply pointed out that Richard, 3rd Duke of York, according to Vicary
Gibbs, was the first to officially adopt the SURNAME of Plantagenet -- NOT
the first person who was labeled with it by a much later writer who USED it
to refer to The Black Prince.

Edward Prince of Wales [1330-1376], later called _The Black Prince_, did not
officially use the surname Plantagenet.

The fact that George Carew called him _Edward Plantagenet in 1610 is
interesting but irrelevant.

Apples & Oranges.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1186007473.989804.194950@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 1, 2:50 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of
Count Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York
[1411-1460], claimed the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet."
[N.B. Yes, there was no standard spelling of English in 1460.]

Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House
of York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical
factors, precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House
of York was later identified with the White Rose and the House of
Lancaster with the Red Rose.

As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.

-----------------------

There was a book by Carew which uses the name, and claims that it's
copying details from the Conquest of Ireland by some Thomas Bray,
although a later commentor noted that there is nothing in the
manuscript to indicate who wrote it. Interesting that Plantagenet is
in the index.

Lambeth Palace Library: Manuscripts [MSS 113 - 600]
Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. MSS
Creator(s):
Lambeth Palace Library

FILE - ENGLISH VOYAGES ETC. - ref. MSS 250 - date: n.d
[from Scope and Content] 2 Historical account of the Black Prince
in the hand of George Carew apparently written in 1610 (f.28). Begins:
'Edward Plantagenet the first sonne unto that prudent, religious and
triumphant monarche kinge Edward the third'. It ends with the siege of
Calais, and is followed (f.54) by notes from Froissart and Stow
apparently intended for a continuation (ff.25-28v).

Carew Manuscripts

FILE - Carew Manuscript - ref. MS 596 [n.d.]
item: NAMES mentioned in the CHRONICLE, and other documents
contained in this volume. - ref. MS 596. not paged [n.d.]
[from Scope and Content] Pheipo. Plantagenet, co. Lanc.
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet, fil. Regis. Power.

FILE - Carew Manuscript: Chronicle of the Conquest of Ireland -
ref. MS 598 - date: c1400
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet, D. Lancaster. Plant., Pr.
Wales.
item: A LIST OF NAMES in the Manuscript of the CONQUEST OF
IRELAND [by Bray]. - ref. MS 598, p. 1 - date: Undated
[from Scope and Content] Plantagenet. Power.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 aug 2007 01:18:01

Nonsense...

Consider Henry II as just one salient counter example to your amusing,
eminently predictable, rant.

DSH

"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:f8r4lm$2icr$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

Curious, how centuries of obfuscation, gilded manuscripts, venal
pandering, religious alliances, snobisme, poor memories, and venal
real-politique can disguise the action of rapacious bandits, murderers,
bullies, inbred half-wits, anal-retentives and paranoid lunatics.

Richard III was the only good one among them all.


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:Pf7si.275$in6.2031@eagle.america.net...

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.

We usually hit it a glancing blow, questions are asked -- some tentative,
partial, answers are given. Some stock quotations from the _Complete
Peerage_ are trotted out. Misimpressions are created and locked in and
we
move on. Typical newsgroup behaviour. Similar to a singles bar, with
hard
rock drowning out any serious conversations -- as the body exchange rolls
on. Vide the Saga of Hippo-Troll and "La Nilita" -- far more interesting
than the passion of _Tristan And Isolde.

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete explanation.

So, in the spirit of Henry V [1387-1422] at Harfleur, "Once more unto the
breach, dear friends, once more; Or close up the wall with our English
dead!" [Henry V, III, i, 1-2.] I humbly provide the following
explanation
of the History of 'Plantagenet' as a sobriquet transformed into a
surrogate
surname. [N.B. Henry V is the 7th great-grandson of Geoffroi V 'le Bel',
comte d'Anjou et Maine.]

Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied
to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.

Although the practice is well-established, it has little historical
justification. The name Plantagenet seems to have originated as a
sobriquet
or nickname for Count Geoffrey. It has variously been explained as
referring to his practice of wearing a sprig or branch of yellow broom
(Latin: [planta] genista; Old French: plante genêt) in his helm, or more
probably to his habit of planting brooms to improve his hunting cover.

[N.B. Birds will nest under the small broom bushes or shrubs and hunters
may
hide behind them.] Both explanations may well be true ---- as they are
by
no means mutually exclusive.

"Plantagenet" was not, by any means, a hereditary surname and Geoffrey's
progeny remained without one for more than 300 years, although surnames
became common outside the Royal Family.

Henry II 'Curtmantle' FitzEmpress [1133-1189] [son of Geoffrey and
Matilda
The Empress] and his own sons, Richard I and John I, are now generally
styled by historians as the Angevin (from Anjou) kings. For want of a
better name, their successors, notably Henry III, Edward I, Edward II,
Edward III, and Richard II are still described as Plantagenets.

Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI may properly be called the House of
Lancaster; while Edward IV, Edward V and Richard III constitute the
monarchs
of the House of York. Edward V, of course, is a quite special case who
hardly "reigned" as king and reportedly died in the Tower of London at
12,
one of the two 'Princes in the Tower.'

The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of
Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House
of
York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House of York was
later
identified with the White Rose and the House of Lancaster with the Red
Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.

The legitimate male issue, in the agnatic line, of Count Geoffrey
'Plantagenet' and Matilda The Empress became extinct with the death, in
1499, of Edward, [1475-1499] 18th Earl of Warwick, grandson of Richard,
3rd
Duke of York.

He was the son of George [1449-1478], Duke of Clarence, who allegedly met
his end in the Tower of London as did his son, but George was supposedly
drowned in the famous butt of Malmsey. The Madeira Wine, "Duke of
Clarence"
is named after this event. It is quite palatable, with good body and a
bit
of a nose.

Henry VII resented Edward, 18th Earl of Warwick's proximity to the throne
and he was executed at the Tower of London on 28 Nov 1499. Edward was
imprisoned for many years and not allowed to have a tutor, according to
some
accounts. Therefore, Henry VII allegedly kept him ignorant and
uneducated -- by design. Clever fellow -- and Machiavellian Prince
indeed -- was that rogue Henry Tudor.

Vide the second edition of George Edward Cokayne's [1825-1911] _The
Complete
Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United
Kingdom,
Extant, Extinct or Dormant_; Microprint Edition (half-size in 6 volumes,
condensed from 13); 26 cm; LOC CS421 .C7 1982; Dewey # 929.7/2 19; ISBN
(set) 0904387828; Nobility -- British Isles [First Edition: (1887-1898);
Second Edition (1910-1959). New York, Saint Martin's Press, 1984,
[Reprinted from the British (Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd.) version] 13
volumes in 6; also, previously, Gloucester: A. Sutton, 1982 (also 13 v.
in
6; 26 cm)

[The Sutton version is a reprint of the Second Edition], Volume I
(originally published in 1910), p. 183, note (c):

"It is much to be wished that the surname "Plantagenet," which, since the
time of Charles II, has been freely given to all the descendants of
Geoffrey
of Anjou, had some historical basis which would justify its use, for it
forms a most convenient method of referring to the Edwardian kings and
their
numerous descendants. The fact is, however, as has been pointed out by
Sir
James Ramsay and other writers of our day, that the name, although a
personal emblem [N. B. Latin *planta genista* = broom --- DSH] of the
aforesaid Geoffrey, was never borne by any of his descendants before
Richard
Plantagenet, Duke of York (father of Edward IV), [N.B. and also of
Richard
III --- DSH] who assumed it, apparently about 1448. V.G."

"V.G." is Vicary Gibbs, one of the Editors of the Second Edition of the
Complete Peerage.

This is obviously a quite complex and multi-faceted account ---- subject
to
differing interpretations and shadings. Corrections, additions and
clarifications are most welcome and should be posted to the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This
is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."
Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]

Illegitimis Non Carborundum.

"For by diligent perusing the actes of great men, by considering all the
circumstances of them, by composing Counseiles and Meanes with events, a
man
may seem to have lived in all ages, to have been present at all
enterprises,
to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement, to have attained a greater
experience than the longest life can possibly afford."

John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman Kings of England, William the
First, William the Second and Henry I__, London, 1612, Preface

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Fortem Posce Animum

Deus Vult

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Pax Vobiscum

Sholem Aleichem

Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved

Ian Goddard

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 02 aug 2007 10:48:23

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.


The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

There appears to be a gap of over 3 centuries between the application to
Geoffrey & its adoption by Richard. Presumably there must have been
some tradition of using the term during this interval otherwise
Richard's use of it would have been meaningless.

Peter Stewart

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 aug 2007 11:07:29

"Ian Goddard" <goddai01@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gfidnXd8gd36NSzbnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@pipex.net...
D. Spencer Hines wrote:


Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied
to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.


The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of
Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]

There appears to be a gap of over 3 centuries between the application to
Geoffrey & its adoption by Richard. Presumably there must have been some
tradition of using the term during this interval otherwise Richard's use
of it would have been meaningless.

There was a tradition of applying the name to Geoffrey over the centuries
until his descendant who assumed it - he remained a notable historic figure
and wasn't suddenly rediscovered at the time of Richard.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 aug 2007 18:11:42

Errant Twaddle...

'Nuff Said.

DSH

"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an undergraduate
education already knows everything in your post.

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 03 aug 2007 21:48:52

"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post. The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood line
of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the convenience of
writers and historians for a period of history before surnames came
into common use. It could just as easily have been called the House of
Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German culture,
often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf 'Ganger' was
probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given name or patronymic
'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a sense in German culture
that sobriquets were both more unique and earned and therefore of
greater value than either given names or patronymics with which one is
born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Alan Crozier

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 03 aug 2007 23:02:57

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post. The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line
of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the convenience of
writers and historians for a period of history before surnames came
into common use. It could just as easily have been called the House
of
Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture,
often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf 'Ganger' was
probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given name or
patronymic
'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a sense in German
culture
that sobriquets were both more unique and earned and therefore of
greater value than either given names or patronymics with which one
is
born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just Göngu
since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have made any
sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

The Highlander

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 04 aug 2007 05:15:38

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:02:57 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post. The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line
of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the convenience of
writers and historians for a period of history before surnames came
into common use. It could just as easily have been called the House
of
Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture,
often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf 'Ganger' was
probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given name or
patronymic
'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a sense in German
culture
that sobriquets were both more unique and earned and therefore of
greater value than either given names or patronymics with which one
is
born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just Göngu
since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have made any
sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

I was going to remark on that too.

Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden
|
Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710
|
Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.
|
Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).
|
Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered 894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!


The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 04 aug 2007 08:25:48

The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:ipt7b35dk1bkpvdrq8v0gsmeka0075qsk2@4ax.com:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:02:57 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post. The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line
of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the convenience of
writers and historians for a period of history before surnames came
into common use. It could just as easily have been called the House
of
Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture,
often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf 'Ganger' was
probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given name or
patronymic
'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a sense in German
culture
that sobriquets were both more unique and earned and therefore of
greater value than either given names or patronymics with which one
is
born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just Göngu
since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have made any
sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

I was going to remark on that too.

Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden
|
Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710
|
Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.
|
Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).
|
Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered 894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!


The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!


That Hrolf the Ganger was the same person as Rollo cannot be adequately
supported by the documentary evidence. Other than that, you seem to have
it pretty much correct.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Soren Larsen

Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Soren Larsen » 04 aug 2007 09:31:18

The Highlander wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:02:57 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post. The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the
convenience of writers and historians for a period of history
before surnames came into common use. It could just as easily have
been called the House of Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture, often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf
'Ganger' was probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given
name or patronymic 'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a
sense in German culture that sobriquets were both more unique and
earned and therefore of greater value than either given names or
patronymics with which one is born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a
Dane?(opinions vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just
Göngu since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have
made any sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

I was going to remark on that too.

Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered 894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen



--
History is not what it used to be.

Hal

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Hal » 04 aug 2007 15:21:23

On Aug 1, 7:23 pm, "Peter Jason" <p...@jostle.com> wrote:
Curious, how centuries of obfuscation, gilded
manuscripts, venal pandering, religious
alliances, snobisme, poor memories, and venal
real-politique can disguise the action of
rapacious bandits, murderers, bullies, inbred
half-wits, anal-retentives and paranoid
lunatics.

Richard III was the only good one among them
all.

I thought you were talking about the Popes until I saw 'Richard III'

and checked the thread title.

Hal

hippo

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av hippo » 04 aug 2007 20:05:00

"Alan Crozier" wrote in message

[.]

German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just Göngu
since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have made any
sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

I should have used the term 'Germanic'.

Why wouldn't he have been called 'the walker' or 'he who walks' in the
nominative case (depending on use)? I'm not talking about in genealogical or
historic writing, but in common use by the people around him. The sagas are
filled with men called only by their nicknames once introduced - at least in
translation. -the Troll

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 05 aug 2007 04:17:37

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:02:57 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post.
The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing
but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the
convenience of writers and historians for a period of history
before surnames came into common use. It could just as easily
have
been called the House of Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture, often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf
'Ganger' was probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given
name or patronymic 'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a
sense in German culture that sobriquets were both more unique
and
earned and therefore of greater value than either given names or
patronymics with which one is born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a
Dane?(opinions vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind
of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called
Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just
Göngu since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have
made any sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names
and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

I was going to remark on that too.

Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga Saga, the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

Well, there you go. I didn't commission it and I didn't pay for it, so
I'm not bothered either way.

Of course, anything further back than living memory
is always dubious and in his defence, he did note that it was
conjectural.

"Legendary" would maybe be a better word than "conjectural".

I have no idea. Genealogy is not one of my interests.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 aug 2007 04:36:02

Steven [sic] (Greek Stephanos) of Blois changed the pattern, but he was not
in the direct line from Rollo. -the Troll

Nonsense...

King Stephen was the grandson of William The Conqueror and certainly was "in
the direct line". His mother was Adela of Normandy, William's daughter.

If you mean in the agnatic line, say so.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:46b4c08c$0$16385$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...

The Norwegian, Danes, and continental Germans, to include the Franks, were
Germanic peoples that had a remarkably homogenous culture up to the
third-fourth centuries CE.. Gallo-Roman naming practices had not
influenced the naming practices in Normandy by the eleventh century. Even
kings had only given names, often with a sobriquet, in common usage. The
given names of the direct line of Norman dukes and kings, Rollo (Hrolfr),
William (Wilhelm), Richard (Ricohard), Robert (Hrodbhert), and Henry
(Heinrich) are of Germanic derivation. Steven (Greek Stephanos) of Blois
changed the pattern, but he was not in the direct line from Rollo. -the
Troll

Alan Crozier

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 05 aug 2007 11:39:05

"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:46b4ca14$0$16509$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...
"Alan Crozier" wrote in message

[.]

German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a
Dane?(opinions
vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just
Göngu
since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have made any
sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

I should have used the term 'Germanic'.

Why wouldn't he have been called 'the walker' or 'he who walks' in the
nominative case (depending on use)?

Because the people who gave him the epithet spoke Old Norse, not Modern
English. They made their nicknames in different ways from us.

I'm not talking about in genealogical or
historic writing, but in common use by the people around him. The
sagas are
filled with men called only by their nicknames once introduced - at
least in
translation. -the Troll

Any examples?

Alan

mof

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av mof » 06 aug 2007 06:02:17

I recall one nickname used on its own. It is Craccaben, for Olav
Tryggvasson. You can find it somewhere around chapter 2:40, and note
26 of Adam of Bremen's work Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum.
(There are different versions of the extant texts.)

However, Adam was probably from South Germany, and he wrote in latin.
We are still some distance away from how the nickname would have been
used by a Norse speaker.

Parts of Swedish place names may consist of a nickname. A typical
example is Utvängstorp. In English it'd be something like
Unwashedthorpe, so in these cases we also have nicknames not actually
used together with a real name. I think such examples at least makes
it worthwhile to consider the possibility of nicknames being used
alone.

I think Alan is on to something though, and in the sagas it could
possibly be very difficult to find examples of people being called
only by their nicknames.

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 06 aug 2007 12:56:48

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:02:57 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9981825CCE07FSim@216.196.97.136...
"hippo" <south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:46b15615$0$16374$88260bb3@news.teranews.com:


"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of
pogueish newsgroups.

[.]

Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete
explanation.

Why do you blather on about nothing? Everyone here with an
undergraduate education already knows everything in your post.
The
only question is where the nickname came from. You did nothing
but
repeat the same tired old possibilities.

'Plantagent' is used to denote the kings of England of the blood
line of Geoffrey 'the Fair' for no other reason than the
convenience of writers and historians for a period of history
before surnames came into common use. It could just as easily
have
been called the House of Anjou.

Nicknames, or sobriquets if you insist, were common in German
culture, often replacing given names in common usage. Hrolf
'Ganger' was probably called 'Ganger' more often than his given
name or patronymic 'Rogenwaldson', even to his face. There was a
sense in German culture that sobriquets were both more unique
and
earned and therefore of greater value than either given names or
patronymics with which one is born. -the Troll



German culture having what to do with a Norwegian or a
Dane?(opinions vary on which Hrolf was.)


Indeed. In Old Norse usage it would be very strange if this kind
of
nickname was used without the given forename.

Anyway, he wasn't called Hrolf 'Ganger'. He was called
Göngu-Hrólfr,
i.e. 'Walking-Rolf'. He could not possible have been called just
Göngu since that genitive form of the word 'ganga' would not have
made any sense on its own.

You can't discuss this matter using modern translations of names
and
putting people in the wrong culture - he wasn't German.

Alan

I was going to remark on that too.

Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga Saga, the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable source?
It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than condescension,
which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity; given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Of course, anything further back than living memory
is always dubious and in his defence, he did note that it was
conjectural.

"Legendary" would maybe be a better word than "conjectural".

Once it reaches closer to our times, it becomes much more
accurate.

My mother's tree, which reaches back only as far as 1320, when an
ancestor assumed the Lordship of Liddesdale, is supported by the
historical record and is therefore much more reliable, I feel. His
ancestors have long since been lost to posterity, although we do know
where the lucky lord originated.

My mother's and father's family trees are today the family tree of
countless thousands, so little prestige accrues personally, apart from
a brief note of one's birth and the crested ring I wear.

The only other matter that ever caught my attention was when my
grandfather was given a genealogy by a man he detested which I
gathered claimed a close relationship between him and the donor.

My grandfather, not a man noted for his quiet acceptance of reality,
read several pages and then threw the book across the room, shouting,
"It's a bloody lie!" No one else seemed interested in pursuing the
matter, so I never did find out what had so upset my grandfather.

So much for the vagaries of genealogy...


Indeed

rest snipped

Alan


The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Alan Crozier

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 06 aug 2007 14:42:45

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun, the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.


It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources. I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity; given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 07 aug 2007 16:08:54

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun, the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.


It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources. I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity; given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive for
my peremptory tone.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Alan Crozier

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 07 aug 2007 17:53:53

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.


It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed. E.g.
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I16165
and under F in this list of royal nicknames:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan

Jane Margaret Laight

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Jane Margaret Laight » 07 aug 2007 18:51:02

On Aug 7, 12:53 pm, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...





On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed. E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... v4is&id=...
and under F in this list of royal nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A slight deviation from the topic--

A transcript from the late Dudley Moore and the late Peter Cook in
their personae "Derek & Clive"

"Ross McPharter"
[ from the album "Come Again" (1977) ]

DEREK:
(farting noise)

CLIVE:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to produce one of the greatest farters
of all time. I'm talking of none other than Ross McPharter who, er,
does wonderful farts, er, for live audiences throughout the world.

DEREK:
Hi.

CLIVE:
Er, Ross, um, I'd like to hear, um, live one of your famous farts,
and, er, oh, .....

DEREK:
Well, I think first of all, er, Barry, I think, you know, it should be
explained that farting is no laughing matter.

CLIVE:
No, it's, it's a live art.

DEREK:
It's a-, an art which, er, has been handed down from generation to
generation.

CLIVE:
Let's try and get the accent right for a start.

DEREK:
I come from mixed background, you see, and, er, (sniggers) the thing
is that, er, most people take farting far too lightly.

CLIVE:
I-

DEREK:
If you'll pardon the 'far-too-lightly', er, expression.

CLIVE:
Well, huh-huh, Barry, that's a-, that's an in-joke for farters .....

DEREK:
No, but seriously, .....

CLIVE:
...... and I like it.

DEREK:
Yes, it certainly is, but of course, er, there aren't many, errr,
societies nowadays that, er, devote their-, their entire time and
interest to farting.

CLIVE:
Well, er-

DEREK:
And this saddens me a great deal because I think that farting is a
very important part of Scottish life.

CLIVE:
Well, it takes, um, a great deal of our time up here in Scotland,
'cause, er .....

DEREK:
It certainly does.

CLIVE:
...... there's certainly very little else to do .....

DEREK:
Exactly.

CLIVE:
...... apart from listen to Billy Connolly.

DEREK:
Well, when you live in Scotland - and especially in Glamorgan -
there's not very much you have, er-er, at your disposal except the
T.V. .....

CLIVE:
Well, if you're in Scotland AND in Glamorgan you're in trouble.

DEREK:
...... T.V. and farting. Er, you know, there's Saturday night, of
course, down the pub.

CLIVE:
No, no, if I-, I could ask you a straight question.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course.

CLIVE:
Could we have for the-, for the viewers point of view, and for the
listener's point of view a straightforward fart.

DEREK:
You'd like a straightforward fart. Yes, well, hold on a second would
you, please?

CLIVE:
One of the farts that comes straight forward .....

DEREK:
One of the f-

CLIVE:
...... which is difficult to do because most of them come straight
backwards.

DEREK:
Yes, of course, er, one, it's certainly-, you have to be a c-, a
little double-jointed but I'll see what I can do.

(no discernable noise)

Did you c- (laughs) did you catch that one?

CLIVE:
That was a very good fart and one of the best I've ever heard and,
er, .....

DEREK:
Now, of course-, I'm limbering up now, of course. That's what I'd
normally start my act with, er, slightly off-mic.

CLIVE:
But could you give us a really big, what you might call, umm, a fart-
t .....

DEREK:
What? a show-stopper?

CLIVE:
A show-stopper.

DEREK:
Yes, certainly, of course, certainly.

CLIVE:
One that should enable the audience to leave the auditorium without
any trouble at all.

DEREK:
Certainly. Most of them get carried away, as it were. Here we go.
bbbbrrrp-bbbBBRRRRPPP- OWW!! BBRPPHHH-BRPHH-BRRPP-PP-PP-PP-PP-PP-
PPRRPP
I'm sorry. There's, er, there's a certain amount of, er, .....

CLIVE:
Now, I believe that was one of your well known 'liquid farts' .....

DEREK:
That was a liquid fart, er .....

CLIVE:
...... in which we see absolute shit stream down you.

DEREK:
That is, of course, where the, er, the normal-

CLIVE:
Could you give us, could you give us, for the more squeamish amongst
us, the, er, what is known as the, the, the 'dry fart'.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course, of course. Well, it's not very impressive, of
course. It's a more sophisticated audience. It depends where I'm
playing ..... (laughs) If I'm playing the Al-

CLIVE:
The 'dry fart' for Barry, Marry-, Barry McDermott.

DEREK:
Barry McDermott and all the cancer patients in, er, the Glamorgan
testicle ward.

CLIVE:
Ward three.

DEREK:
(laughs)

CLIVE:
Well, that's a very poor fart indeed. I-, I-, I- .....

DEREK:
I forgot to tell you it was a silent one.

CLIVE:
A silent fart.

DEREK:
Yes, a silent fart.

CLIVE:
Well, all can say to Barry is, um, keep up the good work .....

DEREK:
Thank you, Bruce.

CLIVE:
...... and, er, it's nice to be in town with you.

DEREK:
What's-

CLIVE:
In the meantime, um, .....

DEREK:
Well I-, can I leave you with, er, .....

CLIVE:
Err .....

DEREK:
...... one of my specialities, ah, that I'd normally, er, end the
first, er, the first half with.

CLIVE:
The first act ends with, um, .....

DEREK:
With, er, .....
phh-bbbb-BBBRRRRRRPPPPPP


JML
who also notes that in the history of flatulence, it is told that
ancient Irish nobles hired professional farters to entertain at
parties. To quote "Wikipedia"--"The professional farters of medieval
Ireland were called braigetori. They are listed together with other
performers and musicians in the 12th century Tech Midchúarda, a
diagram of the banqueting hall of Tara. As entertainers, these
braigetori ranked at the lower end of a scale headed by bards, fili
and harpers." Hopefully very few of their descendants subscribe to
any of the listed newsgroups....

Alan Crozier

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 07 aug 2007 20:33:22

"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186509062.570165.182490@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 7, 12:53 pm, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...





On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early
8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl
of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d.
927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is
now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to
record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how
the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the
Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of
inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from
a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by
implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's
use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version
were
the only two references available; implying that he simply
"lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the
herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary
sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being
brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity
was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something,
the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to
heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating
and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th
c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest
that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or
speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to
have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have
worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive
for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an
ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed.
E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... =dav4is&id

=...
and under F in this list of royal
nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can
find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two
reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not
give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A slight deviation from the topic--

A transcript from the late Dudley Moore and the late Peter Cook in
their personae "Derek & Clive"

"Ross McPharter"
[ from the album "Come Again" (1977) ]

DEREK:
(farting noise)

CLIVE:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to produce one of the greatest farters
of all time. I'm talking of none other than Ross McPharter who, er,
does wonderful farts, er, for live audiences throughout the world.

DEREK:
Hi.

CLIVE:
Er, Ross, um, I'd like to hear, um, live one of your famous farts,
and, er, oh, .....

DEREK:
Well, I think first of all, er, Barry, I think, you know, it should be
explained that farting is no laughing matter.

CLIVE:
No, it's, it's a live art.

DEREK:
It's a-, an art which, er, has been handed down from generation to
generation.

CLIVE:
Let's try and get the accent right for a start.

DEREK:
I come from mixed background, you see, and, er, (sniggers) the thing
is that, er, most people take farting far too lightly.

CLIVE:
I-

DEREK:
If you'll pardon the 'far-too-lightly', er, expression.

CLIVE:
Well, huh-huh, Barry, that's a-, that's an in-joke for farters .....

DEREK:
No, but seriously, .....

CLIVE:
...... and I like it.

DEREK:
Yes, it certainly is, but of course, er, there aren't many, errr,
societies nowadays that, er, devote their-, their entire time and
interest to farting.

CLIVE:
Well, er-

DEREK:
And this saddens me a great deal because I think that farting is a
very important part of Scottish life.

CLIVE:
Well, it takes, um, a great deal of our time up here in Scotland,
'cause, er .....

DEREK:
It certainly does.

CLIVE:
...... there's certainly very little else to do .....

DEREK:
Exactly.

CLIVE:
...... apart from listen to Billy Connolly.

DEREK:
Well, when you live in Scotland - and especially in Glamorgan -
there's not very much you have, er-er, at your disposal except the
T.V. .....

CLIVE:
Well, if you're in Scotland AND in Glamorgan you're in trouble.

DEREK:
...... T.V. and farting. Er, you know, there's Saturday night, of
course, down the pub.

CLIVE:
No, no, if I-, I could ask you a straight question.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course.

CLIVE:
Could we have for the-, for the viewers point of view, and for the
listener's point of view a straightforward fart.

DEREK:
You'd like a straightforward fart. Yes, well, hold on a second would
you, please?

CLIVE:
One of the farts that comes straight forward .....

DEREK:
One of the f-

CLIVE:
...... which is difficult to do because most of them come straight
backwards.

DEREK:
Yes, of course, er, one, it's certainly-, you have to be a c-, a
little double-jointed but I'll see what I can do.

(no discernable noise)

Did you c- (laughs) did you catch that one?

CLIVE:
That was a very good fart and one of the best I've ever heard and,
er, .....

DEREK:
Now, of course-, I'm limbering up now, of course. That's what I'd
normally start my act with, er, slightly off-mic.

CLIVE:
But could you give us a really big, what you might call, umm, a fart-
t .....

DEREK:
What? a show-stopper?

CLIVE:
A show-stopper.

DEREK:
Yes, certainly, of course, certainly.

CLIVE:
One that should enable the audience to leave the auditorium without
any trouble at all.

DEREK:
Certainly. Most of them get carried away, as it were. Here we go.
bbbbrrrp-bbbBBRRRRPPP- OWW!! BBRPPHHH-BRPHH-BRRPP-PP-PP-PP-PP-PP-
PPRRPP
I'm sorry. There's, er, there's a certain amount of, er, .....

CLIVE:
Now, I believe that was one of your well known 'liquid farts' .....

DEREK:
That was a liquid fart, er .....

CLIVE:
...... in which we see absolute shit stream down you.

DEREK:
That is, of course, where the, er, the normal-

CLIVE:
Could you give us, could you give us, for the more squeamish amongst
us, the, er, what is known as the, the, the 'dry fart'.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course, of course. Well, it's not very impressive, of
course. It's a more sophisticated audience. It depends where I'm
playing ..... (laughs) If I'm playing the Al-

CLIVE:
The 'dry fart' for Barry, Marry-, Barry McDermott.

DEREK:
Barry McDermott and all the cancer patients in, er, the Glamorgan
testicle ward.

CLIVE:
Ward three.

DEREK:
(laughs)

CLIVE:
Well, that's a very poor fart indeed. I-, I-, I- .....

DEREK:
I forgot to tell you it was a silent one.

CLIVE:
A silent fart.

DEREK:
Yes, a silent fart.

CLIVE:
Well, all can say to Barry is, um, keep up the good work .....

DEREK:
Thank you, Bruce.

CLIVE:
...... and, er, it's nice to be in town with you.

DEREK:
What's-

CLIVE:
In the meantime, um, .....

DEREK:
Well I-, can I leave you with, er, .....

CLIVE:
Err .....

DEREK:
...... one of my specialities, ah, that I'd normally, er, end the
first, er, the first half with.

CLIVE:
The first act ends with, um, .....

DEREK:
With, er, .....
phh-bbbb-BBBRRRRRRPPPPPP




What's the worst job you ever had?

Alan

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 08 aug 2007 06:43:45

On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 19:33:22 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186509062.570165.182490@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 7, 12:53 pm, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...





On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early
8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl
of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d.
927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is
now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to
record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how
the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the
Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of
inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from
a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by
implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's
use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version
were
the only two references available; implying that he simply
"lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the
herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary
sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being
brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity
was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something,
the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to
heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating
and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th
c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest
that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or
speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to
have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have
worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive
for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an
ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed.
E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... =dav4is&id
=...
and under F in this list of royal
nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can
find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two
reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not
give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A slight deviation from the topic--

A transcript from the late Dudley Moore and the late Peter Cook in
their personae "Derek & Clive"

"Ross McPharter"
[ from the album "Come Again" (1977) ]

DEREK:
(farting noise)

CLIVE:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to produce one of the greatest farters
of all time. I'm talking of none other than Ross McPharter who, er,
does wonderful farts, er, for live audiences throughout the world.

DEREK:
Hi.

CLIVE:
Er, Ross, um, I'd like to hear, um, live one of your famous farts,
and, er, oh, .....

DEREK:
Well, I think first of all, er, Barry, I think, you know, it should be
explained that farting is no laughing matter.

CLIVE:
No, it's, it's a live art.

DEREK:
It's a-, an art which, er, has been handed down from generation to
generation.

CLIVE:
Let's try and get the accent right for a start.

DEREK:
I come from mixed background, you see, and, er, (sniggers) the thing
is that, er, most people take farting far too lightly.

CLIVE:
I-

DEREK:
If you'll pardon the 'far-too-lightly', er, expression.

CLIVE:
Well, huh-huh, Barry, that's a-, that's an in-joke for farters .....

DEREK:
No, but seriously, .....

CLIVE:
..... and I like it.

DEREK:
Yes, it certainly is, but of course, er, there aren't many, errr,
societies nowadays that, er, devote their-, their entire time and
interest to farting.

CLIVE:
Well, er-

DEREK:
And this saddens me a great deal because I think that farting is a
very important part of Scottish life.

CLIVE:
Well, it takes, um, a great deal of our time up here in Scotland,
'cause, er .....

DEREK:
It certainly does.

CLIVE:
..... there's certainly very little else to do .....

DEREK:
Exactly.

CLIVE:
..... apart from listen to Billy Connolly.

DEREK:
Well, when you live in Scotland - and especially in Glamorgan -
there's not very much you have, er-er, at your disposal except the
T.V. .....

CLIVE:
Well, if you're in Scotland AND in Glamorgan you're in trouble.

DEREK:
..... T.V. and farting. Er, you know, there's Saturday night, of
course, down the pub.

CLIVE:
No, no, if I-, I could ask you a straight question.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course.

CLIVE:
Could we have for the-, for the viewers point of view, and for the
listener's point of view a straightforward fart.

DEREK:
You'd like a straightforward fart. Yes, well, hold on a second would
you, please?

CLIVE:
One of the farts that comes straight forward .....

DEREK:
One of the f-

CLIVE:
..... which is difficult to do because most of them come straight
backwards.

DEREK:
Yes, of course, er, one, it's certainly-, you have to be a c-, a
little double-jointed but I'll see what I can do.

(no discernable noise)

Did you c- (laughs) did you catch that one?

CLIVE:
That was a very good fart and one of the best I've ever heard and,
er, .....

DEREK:
Now, of course-, I'm limbering up now, of course. That's what I'd
normally start my act with, er, slightly off-mic.

CLIVE:
But could you give us a really big, what you might call, umm, a fart-
t .....

DEREK:
What? a show-stopper?

CLIVE:
A show-stopper.

DEREK:
Yes, certainly, of course, certainly.

CLIVE:
One that should enable the audience to leave the auditorium without
any trouble at all.

DEREK:
Certainly. Most of them get carried away, as it were. Here we go.
bbbbrrrp-bbbBBRRRRPPP- OWW!! BBRPPHHH-BRPHH-BRRPP-PP-PP-PP-PP-PP-
PPRRPP
I'm sorry. There's, er, there's a certain amount of, er, .....

CLIVE:
Now, I believe that was one of your well known 'liquid farts' .....

DEREK:
That was a liquid fart, er .....

CLIVE:
..... in which we see absolute shit stream down you.

DEREK:
That is, of course, where the, er, the normal-

CLIVE:
Could you give us, could you give us, for the more squeamish amongst
us, the, er, what is known as the, the, the 'dry fart'.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course, of course. Well, it's not very impressive, of
course. It's a more sophisticated audience. It depends where I'm
playing ..... (laughs) If I'm playing the Al-

CLIVE:
The 'dry fart' for Barry, Marry-, Barry McDermott.

DEREK:
Barry McDermott and all the cancer patients in, er, the Glamorgan
testicle ward.

CLIVE:
Ward three.

DEREK:
(laughs)

CLIVE:
Well, that's a very poor fart indeed. I-, I-, I- .....

DEREK:
I forgot to tell you it was a silent one.

CLIVE:
A silent fart.

DEREK:
Yes, a silent fart.

CLIVE:
Well, all can say to Barry is, um, keep up the good work .....

DEREK:
Thank you, Bruce.

CLIVE:
..... and, er, it's nice to be in town with you.

DEREK:
What's-

CLIVE:
In the meantime, um, .....

DEREK:
Well I-, can I leave you with, er, .....

CLIVE:
Err .....

DEREK:
..... one of my specialities, ah, that I'd normally, er, end the
first, er, the first half with.

CLIVE:
The first act ends with, um, .....

DEREK:
With, er, .....
phh-bbbb-BBBRRRRRRPPPPPP




What's the worst job you ever had?

Alan
Cleaning the windows of an old building in Edinburgh for five pounds -

a week's wages in those days. It took me a whole week - seven days.



The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Jane Margaret Laight

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Jane Margaret Laight » 08 aug 2007 08:40:33

On Aug 7, 3:33 pm, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1186509062.570165.182490@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 7, 12:53 pm, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:> "The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early
8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl
of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d.
927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is
now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to
record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how
the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the
Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of
inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from
a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by
implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's
use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version
were
the only two references available; implying that he simply
"lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the
herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary
sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being
brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity
was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something,
the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to
heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating
and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th
c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest
that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or
speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to
have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have
worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive
for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an
ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed.

E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... =dav4is&id
=...> and under F in this list of royal

nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F



These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can
find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two
reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not
give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A slight deviation from the topic--

A transcript from the late Dudley Moore and the late Peter Cook in
their personae "Derek & Clive"

"Ross McPharter"
[ from the album "Come Again" (1977) ]

DEREK:
(farting noise)

CLIVE:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to produce one of the greatest farters
of all time. I'm talking of none other than Ross McPharter who, er,
does wonderful farts, er, for live audiences throughout the world.

DEREK:
Hi.

CLIVE:
Er, Ross, um, I'd like to hear, um, live one of your famous farts,
and, er, oh, .....

DEREK:
Well, I think first of all, er, Barry, I think, you know, it should be
explained that farting is no laughing matter.

CLIVE:
No, it's, it's a live art.

DEREK:
It's a-, an art which, er, has been handed down from generation to
generation.

CLIVE:
Let's try and get the accent right for a start.

DEREK:
I come from mixed background, you see, and, er, (sniggers) the thing
is that, er, most people take farting far too lightly.

CLIVE:
I-

DEREK:
If you'll pardon the 'far-too-lightly', er, expression.

CLIVE:
Well, huh-huh, Barry, that's a-, that's an in-joke for farters .....

DEREK:
No, but seriously, .....

CLIVE:
..... and I like it.

DEREK:
Yes, it certainly is, but of course, er, there aren't many, errr,
societies nowadays that, er, devote their-, their entire time and
interest to farting.

CLIVE:
Well, er-

DEREK:
And this saddens me a great deal because I think that farting is a
very important part of Scottish life.

CLIVE:
Well, it takes, um, a great deal of our time up here in Scotland,
'cause, er .....

DEREK:
It certainly does.

CLIVE:
..... there's certainly very little else to do .....

DEREK:
Exactly.

CLIVE:
..... apart from listen to Billy Connolly.

DEREK:
Well, when you live in Scotland - and especially in Glamorgan -
there's not very much you have, er-er, at your disposal except the
T.V. .....

CLIVE:
Well, if you're in Scotland AND in Glamorgan you're in trouble.

DEREK:
..... T.V. and farting. Er, you know, there's Saturday night, of
course, down the pub.

CLIVE:
No, no, if I-, I could ask you a straight question.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course.

CLIVE:
Could we have for the-, for the viewers point of view, and for the
listener's point of view a straightforward fart.

DEREK:
You'd like a straightforward fart. Yes, well, hold on a second would
you, please?

CLIVE:
One of the farts that comes straight forward .....

DEREK:
One of the f-

CLIVE:
..... which is difficult to do because most of them come straight
backwards.

DEREK:
Yes, of course, er, one, it's certainly-, you have to be a c-, a
little double-jointed but I'll see what I can do.

(no discernable noise)

Did you c- (laughs) did you catch that one?

CLIVE:
That was a very good fart and one of the best I've ever heard and,
er, .....

DEREK:
Now, of course-, I'm limbering up now, of course. That's what I'd
normally start my act with, er, slightly off-mic.

CLIVE:
But could you give us a really big, what you might call, umm, a fart-
t .....

DEREK:
What? a show-stopper?

CLIVE:
A show-stopper.

DEREK:
Yes, certainly, of course, certainly.

CLIVE:
One that should enable the audience to leave the auditorium without
any trouble at all.

DEREK:
Certainly. Most of them get carried away, as it were. Here we go.
bbbbrrrp-bbbBBRRRRPPP- OWW!! BBRPPHHH-BRPHH-BRRPP-PP-PP-PP-PP-PP-
PPRRPP
I'm sorry. There's, er, there's a certain amount of, er, .....

CLIVE:
Now, I believe that was one of your well known 'liquid farts' .....

DEREK:
That was a liquid fart, er .....

CLIVE:
..... in which we see absolute shit stream down you.

DEREK:
That is, of course, where the, er, the normal-

CLIVE:
Could you give us, could you give us, for the more squeamish amongst
us, the, er, what is known as the, the, the 'dry fart'.

DEREK:
Certainly, of course, of course. Well, it's not very impressive, of
course. It's a more sophisticated audience. It depends where I'm
playing ..... (laughs) If I'm playing the Al-

CLIVE:
The 'dry fart' for Barry, Marry-, Barry McDermott.

DEREK:
Barry McDermott and all the cancer patients in, er, the Glamorgan
testicle ward.

CLIVE:
Ward three.

DEREK:
(laughs)

CLIVE:
Well, that's a very poor fart indeed. I-, I-, I- .....

DEREK:
I forgot to tell you it was a silent one.

CLIVE:
A silent fart.

DEREK:
Yes, a silent fart.

CLIVE:
Well, all can say to Barry is, um, keep up the good work .....

DEREK:
Thank you, Bruce.

CLIVE:
..... and, er, it's nice to be in town with you.

DEREK:
What's-

CLIVE:
In the meantime, um, .....

DEREK:
Well I-, can I leave you with, er, .....

CLIVE:
Err .....

DEREK:
..... one of my specialities, ah, that I'd normally, er, end the
first, er, the first half with.

CLIVE:
The first act ends with, um, .....

DEREK:
With, er, .....
phh-bbbb-BBBRRRRRRPPPPPP

What's the worst job you ever had?

Alan


working in the public library system of a major city in the American
Deep South in one of the most educationally & intellectually blighted
sections of my country--I sought to impart knowledge and the folks who
ran things wanted to maintain the status quo. I lasted eighteen
months.

JML
who also worked security in a dance hall--fancy footwork and a left
hook works all the time

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 aug 2007 09:03:42

Hmmmmmmmmm...

How much do you weigh?

DSH

"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186558833.040322.148020@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

working in the public library system of a major city in the American
Deep South in one of the most educationally & intellectually blighted
sections of my country--I sought to impart knowledge and the folks who
ran things wanted to maintain the status quo. I lasted eighteen
months.

JML

who also worked security in a dance hall--fancy footwork and a left
hook works all the time.

Inger E

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Inger E » 08 aug 2007 10:14:08

The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C. (Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre, murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927, who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun, the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.


It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources. I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

Snorri isn't trustworthy when it comes to persons living more than 100 years
before his own time. However more than what's been told in these groups when
it comes to Scandinavian 8th-10th century history can be traced piece by
piece in sources from 875 AD up to 1000 AD.
More than told can also be traced back in history to 650 AD.... however
there IS a gap in contemporary documents between late 6th century up to 654
AD. Of course most of the information been lost over the centuries. But
there are over 80 still remaining annals, monestry books and others from
King Alfred the Great's Alfred's Orosius up to 1100 AD. (some older)
The best works about those days are to be found in Arabic language where
several books about the World and the persons living was written in
geographic works from 7th century. Alone they give small but essential
pieces of information due to confirming information written more than 50
years after events in different parts of Europe. Some of them give good
information for Scandinvia, Baltics and northern Russia of today.
My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity; given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations and
portray them as amended fact.

That A -> B doesn't necessarily mean that all B comes from A.
One of the logic problems involved in Snorri's work. Now the Norwegian work
was put together in 1180's with parts of it going back to early 1000's. For
information re. Norway north of Bergen it's hard to find good documentation
for persons and events before 900 AD.

Inger E

Jane Margaret Laight

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Jane Margaret Laight » 08 aug 2007 10:17:32

On Aug 8, 4:03 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmmm...

How much do you weigh?

DSH

Why? Worried you may want to sweep a woman off her feet only to find
out you can't lift her?

JML

<snip>

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 09 aug 2007 02:29:57

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:36:52 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:puejb3p0dfjcokkf1ge685lshtojr751pr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:53:53 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagnijo@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early
8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the
Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl
of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d.
927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the
norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is
now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to
record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how
the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the
Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in
their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of
inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned
pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended
from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by
implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's
use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version
were
the only two references available; implying that he simply
"lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a
matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought
up.


It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the
herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary
sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being
brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity
was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something,
the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about
the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary
or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to
heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating
and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late
9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest
that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to
be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or
speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to
have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in
my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have
worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive
for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein
Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an
ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed. E.g.

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... v4is&id=I1
6165
and under F in this list of royal nicknames:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can
find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two
reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not
give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan

Absolutely not! In fact I don't go to the bathroom at all. Instead, as
befits a direct descendant of the God Freyr, I have everything removed
by caesarean section in early Spring and donate my offering to the
Chelsea Flower Show, where elderly tradition bearers from Raumarike
hand-model it into three-quarter life-sized garden gnomes, or trolls
as we call them before a rapt audience of onlookers, while I stroll
around in my Viking helmet making witty remarks like "Kan du snakke
gammel Norsk?". (Do you speak old Norse?) and "Du ha bra bryster - bli
med meg!" (You have nice tits - follow me!) Needless to say, the crowd
laps it up.

The trolls are hardened by a special expoxy gel squeezed from rare
Lappland seagulls found only in coastal Lapland, surprisingly, painted
in bold colours and sold to members of the English middleclass who
proudly position them in their gardens, next to the obligatory
mini-pond with the withered lily pads and the two sickly-looking
goldfish. For another £5, a revolving flashing light can be installed
to keep cats and the homeless away from the goldfish.

There was tremendous excitement two years ago when Her Majesty paused
by the exhibit and examined one of the trolls with avid interest. It
was rumoured that a loyal retainer from her entourage slipped back
later and purchased two for the gardens at Sandringham, but as I
always refuse to involve myself with the horror of commerce, I cannot
confirm or deny the rumour.

However, it would be a wonderful boost for my social standing if I
were able to display a small plaque affixed to my colostomy at dinner
parties, proudly announcing, "By Royal Appointment"!

And, indeed, regarding your enquiry about the Eysteinian complaint, I
have been known to attatch a small Norwegian bagpipe to the wonder
baggie during the more lively parties and entertain the guests with
medieval tunes from Tromso, always a popular item, apart from the
unfortunate smell that seems to accompany anything played in A flat,
or as Prince Charles remarked, "A Flatulence" - dutiful laughter all
round, bless his elephantine jug-like ears.

Currently. a small, discreet stamp on the underside of each troll
warrants it as a genuine Raumarike hand-shaped artifact, and indeed in
recent years there has been more demand than I can supply.

I'm not sure how much of that I should believe...

There is a standing stone in the Highlands, which has engraved on it
in Ogham writing, "Never let the facts get in the way of a good
story..." There is also a smaller insscription which says in Vikibg
Runes, "Snorri lied/lay here" There is some dispute as to which verb
was intended.
This is why I have been hanging around soc.culture.medieval in the
hope of picking up a partner who can help me meet demand. In
particular I am hoping to persuade Mr. Hines to join me in this
cultural venture as all those I have discreetly contacted have assured
me that he is an unlimited source of the required building material.

That last bit is true. He's been in my killfile for a long time, but
here in shm I see plenty of his manure at nth hand.

Alan

Alas, so did we, and indeed the current crossposting between this
group and yours is his legacy.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 09 aug 2007 03:32:49

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:46:04 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:shkjb31u3dg6hjtemlomne9t8ivmsllli2@4ax.com...
big snips

The Scottish Declaration of Arbroath, drawn up in Arbroath Abbey on
the 6th April 1320, mentions that we came from "Upper Scythia" (around
the Dnestr River which runs through Moldova and thence to Odessa on
the Black Sea) and records from other cultures suggest that we were
the Hell's Angels of the time and rented ourselves out as mercenaries
- a tradition that existed into the 18th century.

Does anyone know the earliest evidence for the identification of Scots
and Scythians? And when did Andrew, the apostle of the Scythians, become
adopted as the patron saint of the Scots?

There's even a mountain on my home island called Trollaval. To date,
no trolls have yet revealed themselves...

They're all here on the Isle of Usenet now.

Alan

LOL!

Someone called WJhobsion@W aol.com sent me an offensive email which
said:
-------------------------
We're still trying to discover what Celts were doing in China in the
6th c BCE. The Chinese records mention that we introduced them to the
war chariot; undertones of the Assyrians. >>


It won't help your case to drift from fantasy into utter lunacy.
-------------------------

Apart from noting that AOL is a well-known acronym for "Arseholes On
Line", I don't care to be emailed by such people and never respond to
them. However, the Ulumqi dig is well known - it's an American dig -
and recently (ish) there were disputes between them and the Chinese.

There is also an excellent BBC documentary which deal with much of
this in detail some years ago and even showed what were clearly
western corpses preserved in the Gobi with hair, beards and eyelashes
intact. They were all red heads, so they may have been Scandinavians,
Germans or Celts, but one interesting fact was mentioned, that some
strands of weaving were found which employed a technique still, and
exclusively, used by Harris Tweed makers in the Hebrides.

Interesting little tidbits, I thought.

Here are the relevent passages from the Declaration of Arbroath
translated into English. They include a mention of St. Andrew.

I have posted the original Latin below, which I am sure you will
recognize as not being classical Latin, but close enough to be read
and understood easily. In those days Gaelic and the two daughter
languages of Old Northumbrian; Scots and English; were spoken quite
widely, although Gaelic was probably already giving way in the south
to Scots. The last example of south Scottish Gaelic was spoken in
Galloway, close to the Englosh border, which still forms a large part
f the Gaelic of the Isle of Man.

Man's last native speaker, Mr. Ned Maddrell, died in 1974, but the
language is being revived in Manx Schools. Indeed, I was seriously
considering replying to an advertisement seeking a Manx teacher for
Manx schools, but decided that I'd as soon stay in Canada. Manx, Scots
and Irish Gaelic are essentially mutually intelligible, certainly for
any Gaelic scholar and also for older Gaels who spoke a much purer
form of the language than that heard today; which includes numerous
calques/idioms borrowed from English such as "fionnar" meaning
temperate but now also used for the English "Cool!" as in "Right on!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books
of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the
Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from
Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of
Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most
savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however
barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of
Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still
live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly
destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the
Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many
victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear
witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their
kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own
royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.

The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not
otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of
kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and
Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts
of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor would He
have them confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of
His Apostles -- by calling, though second or third in rank -- the most
gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's brother, and desired him to
keep them under his protection as their patron forever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And the original:

Scimus, Sanctissime Pater et Domine, et ex antiquorum gestis et libris
Colligimus quod inter Ceteras naciones egregias nostra scilicet
Scottorum nacio multis preconijs fuerit insignita, que de Maiori
Schithia per Mare tirenium et Columpnas Herculis transiens et in
Hispania inter ferocissimas gentes per multa temporum curricula
Residens a nullis quantumcumque barbaricis poterat allicubi gentibus
subiugari. Indeque veniens post mille et ducentos annos a transitu
populi israelitici per mare rubrum sibi sedes in Occidente quas nunc
optinet, expulsis primo Britonibus et Pictis omnino deletis, licet per
Norwagienses, Dacos et Anglicos sepius inpugnata fuerit, multis cum
victorijs et Laboribus quamplurimis adquisuit, ipsaque ab omni
seruitute liberas, vt Priscorum testantur Historie, semper tenuit. In
quorum Regno Centum et Tredescim Reges de ipsorum Regali prosapia,
nullo alienigena interueniente, Regnauerunt.

Quorum Nobilitates et Merita, licet ex aliis non clarerent, satis
patenter effulgent ex eo quod Rex Regum et dominancium dominus Jhesus
Christus post passionem suam et Resurreccionem ipsos in vltimis terre
finibus constitutos quasi primos ad suam fidem sanctissimam
conuocauit. Nec eos per quemlibet in dicta fide confirmari voluit set
per suum primum apostolum vocacione quamuis ordine secundum vel
tercium, sanctum Andream mitissimum beati Petri Germanum, quem semper
ipsis preesse voluit vt Patronum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Féachadóir

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Féachadóir » 09 aug 2007 10:18:19

Scríobh "Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com>:
"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:shkjb31u3dg6hjtemlomne9t8ivmsllli2@4ax.com...
big snips

The Scottish Declaration of Arbroath, drawn up in Arbroath Abbey on
the 6th April 1320, mentions that we came from "Upper Scythia" (around
the Dnestr River which runs through Moldova and thence to Odessa on
the Black Sea) and records from other cultures suggest that we were
the Hell's Angels of the time and rented ourselves out as mercenaries
- a tradition that existed into the 18th century.

Does anyone know the earliest evidence for the identification of Scots
and Scythians?

AIUI it goes back at least to Isidore of Seville, so 1500 years or so
at least.

And when did Andrew, the apostle of the Scythians, become
adopted as the patron saint of the Scots?

There's even a mountain on my home island called Trollaval. To date,
no trolls have yet revealed themselves...

They're all here on the Isle of Usenet now.

Alan

--
'Donegal: Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

Alan Crozier

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 09 aug 2007 10:42:55

"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:2vllb392v29gq29au8lldkkgla0kdda1f7@4ax.com...
Scríobh "Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com>:
"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:shkjb31u3dg6hjtemlomne9t8ivmsllli2@4ax.com...
big snips

The Scottish Declaration of Arbroath, drawn up in Arbroath Abbey on
the 6th April 1320, mentions that we came from "Upper Scythia"
(around
the Dnestr River which runs through Moldova and thence to Odessa on
the Black Sea) and records from other cultures suggest that we were
the Hell's Angels of the time and rented ourselves out as
mercenaries
- a tradition that existed into the 18th century.

Does anyone know the earliest evidence for the identification of
Scots
and Scythians?

AIUI it goes back at least to Isidore of Seville, so 1500 years or so
at least.

Thanks. No surprise that it comes from that untrustworthy etymologist.

And when did Andrew, the apostle of the Scythians, become
adopted as the patron saint of the Scots?


Alan

Gjest

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 aug 2007 03:12:40

On Aug 7, 9:53 am, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...





On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed. E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... v4is&id=...
and under F in this list of royal nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I recall seeing Eystein with the name "Glumra". I assumed that this
was an onamanop --- oh hell - one of those words that sounds like a
sound. Like "beep" . Or "honk". - Bronwen

Alan Crozier

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Alan Crozier » 10 aug 2007 06:49:10

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186711960.955542.223140@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

I recall seeing Eystein with the name "Glumra". I assumed that this
was an onamanop --- oh hell - one of those words that sounds like a
sound. Like "beep" . Or "honk". - Bronwen



That's a different man from our pétomane. That's Eystein Glumra Ivarsson
and the eipthet does indeed mean noisy. Some editions of Heimskringla
suggest that it refers to the din of battle, but your hypothesis is
interesting too.

Alan

The Highlander

Re: Ynglingatal Was: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av The Highlander » 10 aug 2007 06:50:03

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:12:40 -0700, lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:

On Aug 7, 9:53 am, "Alan Crozier" <name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:
"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:5t1hb3lf5s2v1ltmf13suls1krp3jbs9ma@4ax.com...





On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:42:45 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:i7vdb3pib22qv5ch9uipjkoddm1pul7q5i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:15:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
name1.na...@telia.com> wrote:

"The Highlander" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ikh9b39ksaehb07eqqbci78btupoqiigl4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 10:31:18 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:

The Highlander wrote:
Here's Rolf "the Ganger"'s lineage:

King Ingiald "Ill-Ruler" 7th C, Uppsala, Sweden

Olaf "Tree-Hewer", King of Wermaland, Norway, ?710

Halfdan "Whiteleg", King of the Norway Upplanders, early 8th
C.

Eystein "The Fart" King in Raumarike, Norway, 8th C.
(Raumarike
still
exists as a village, about 15 km south of Oslo).

Halfdan "The Stingy", King in Vestfold, 8th C.

(The tree continues with Godfrey, "The Proud, King in
Vestfold,
Raumarike, Vestmarar, k. 810. etc. but Halfdan the Stingy's
younger
son Ivarr, Jarl of the Upplanders had a son, Eystein, Jarl of
the
Upplanders and his son, Ranald "The Wise" Jarl of Möre,
murdered
894
was the father of Rolf "the Ganger", Count of Rouen, d. 927,
who
was
the ancestor of the Dukes of Normandy and the Kings of
England.

I think I've got all that right - hope it helps!

The worst blunder seems to be your acceptance of the
connection in Ynglingatal between the Swedish Ynglingar
and the Norwegian "Ynglingar". Then there is the matter
of which area was the heartland of the norwegian"ynglingar";½
Vestfold or Oppland?.

Finally there is the matter of Ynglingatal's dating and
context,
allthough the prevailing opinion indeed seems to be that it
is a norwegian work from the late 9th c and not an
icelandic work from the 12th c.

Soren Larsen

Unfortunately the Scottish herald who prepared the above is now
dead,
or I would advise him of your comments as it purports to record
my
father's ancestry.

The Scottish herald simply took this geneaology from Ynglinga
Saga,
the
first section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.

I have been thinking for some days about your comments and would
like
to raise a couple of points about them.

Ynglingatal is attributed to the Norwegian 9th century skald
Þjóðólfr
of Hvinir. As you know of course, it's the original saga of how the
gods arrived in Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish
Yngling
dynasty at Uppsala.

Snorri wrote his version in the 12th c as that was the period of
his
lifetime, and if saga and myth of the Scandinavians are anything
like
the sagas and myths of the Irish and Scottish Gaels and the Nishga
people of British Columbia, then he would have copied them
accurately
as they would have probably still existed in folk memory in their
original form as far as the salient details were concerned.

Like just about any medieval writer, Snorri was capable of inventing
things. Most scholars accept for example that his account of the
immigration from Asia is his own invention, based on a learned pun,
the
similarity of the name Asia and the word As meaning a god.

So, given the above, what are your grounds for implying that the
first
section of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla is not a reliable
source?

Even if Snorri passed on the stories faithfully, it does not mean
that
the stories are reliable historical accounts. I don't believe, for
instance, that the early kings of Norway were really descended from a
god called Freyr.

It seems to me that unless you have an alternative source which
contradicts the Ynglinga Saga, you cannot dismiss (by implication)
Snorri Sturluson's account? and thefrom, the Scottish herald's use
of
them, in particular because the herald was honest enough to
describe
Snorri's version as "conjectural".

I bring this up because in my opinion, the herald was a man of
unimpeachable probity, and if Ynglingatal and Snorri's version were
the only two references available; implying that he simply "lifted"
them is in effect an ad hominem attack on his integrity; a matter
of
considerable importance in the culture in which I was brought up.

It seems to me that he follows Snorri's version very closely, with
the
addition of some dates and geographical info. I said that the herald
"took" the genealogy from Snorri. The more negative sounding word
"lifted" is yours. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources.
I
just pointed out what the herald's ultimate primary source was.

My immediate reaction to your comments was that I was being brushed
off as someone unworthy to be treated with other than
condescension,

Sorry, that's one of the dangers of the Usenet medium. My brevity was
not intended as hostility.

which I felt was unfair, as in fact as I happen to be an
intelligent
person who has been led to understand by various people in the
field
of intelligence testing that if I do not understand something, the
only possible reason is that it has either been improperly
explained
to me or obfuscated for the source's personal reasons.

I realize that Snorri lived some three hundred years after the
original Ynglingatal was written down, but I am dubious about the
implication that Snorri's account may be inaccurate, imaginary or
invented?

I am dubious about all ancient and medieval genealogies that trace
dynasties or tribes back to legendary or divine ancestors, to heroes
of
the Trojan War or sons of Noah.

The fact that "prevailing opinion" is that Ynglingatal's dating and
context seems to be that it is a Norwegian work from the late 9th c
and not an Icelandic work from the 12th c. obviolusly suggest that
as
it is closer to the original events, and unless Snorri Sturluson
was
known to reinvent events, the reference to the possibility of it
having been an Icelandic work created 300 years later seems to be
immaterial in terms of certifying or denying its authenticity;
given
of course that Snorri did not add his own thoughts or speculations
and
portray them as amended fact.

I am writing this post at close to 5.00 am as my time seems to have
been eaten up by other matters, so if I have not been clear in my
review of your facts, I apologize on the grounds that I have worked
a
long day and have another ahead of me.

Hope you've had a good sleep by the time you read this.

Alan

A good four hours! Thank you for your courtesy and please forgive for
my peremptory tone.

No problem. I must have sounded just as peremptory.

Incidentally, one of the kings in the genealogy above is Eystein Fart.
An Internet search reveals that lots of people claim him as an ancestor.
There are also people who explain the epithet as the Norwegian word
"fart" meaning speed. E.g.http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... v4is&id=...
and under F in this list of royal nicknames:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname#F

These are just some examples of the copious misinformation you can find
on the net. This euphemistic explanation is impossible for two reasons.
First, the word Norwegian "fart" is a much later loan from German.
Second, the oldest source, I think, where this name appears is the
interpolated Prologue to Íslendingabók, where he is called Eysteinn
fretr, which indeed suggests that he let rip a lot. Snorri does not give
him this flatulent epithet.

Have you inherited the complaint?

:-)
Alan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I recall seeing Eystein with the name "Glumra". I assumed that this
was an onamanop --- oh hell - one of those words that sounds like a
sound. Like "beep" . Or "honk". - Bronwen

Onomatopoeia.

What a fascinating insight into your private life. Do your family
members make a sound like "glumra" when breaking wind?

It must be rather exotic. Is your family musical, perchance?

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Jane Margaret Laight

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Jane Margaret Laight » 10 aug 2007 19:54:29

On Aug 10, 1:44 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Jane Margaret Laight"...

Just another frustrated blimp on USENET.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

The story is told of a fox strolling through a verdant wood.

As he passes, he looks up and spies a bunch of grapes hanging from a
high branch.

"Umm, they look good," he thought to himself. "I bet that they will
taste good."

He backed up and took a running start, and jumped.

He did not get high enough.

He went back to his starting spot and tried again.

He almost got high enough this time, but not quite.

He tried and tried, again and again, but just couldn't get high enough
to grab the grapes.

Finally, he gave up.

As he walked away, he put his nose in the air and said: "I am sure
those grapes are sour."

The moral of the story, dear friends?

"It is easy to despise what you cannot get."


JML
ascendo tuum

Robert Peffers.

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Robert Peffers. » 11 aug 2007 00:17:00

"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186772069.588136.22810@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 10, 1:44 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Jane Margaret Laight"...

Just another frustrated blimp on USENET.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

The story is told of a fox strolling through a verdant wood.

As he passes, he looks up and spies a bunch of grapes hanging from a
high branch.

"Umm, they look good," he thought to himself. "I bet that they will
taste good."

He backed up and took a running start, and jumped.

He did not get high enough.

He went back to his starting spot and tried again.

He almost got high enough this time, but not quite.

He tried and tried, again and again, but just couldn't get high enough
to grab the grapes.

Finally, he gave up.

As he walked away, he put his nose in the air and said: "I am sure
those grapes are sour."

The moral of the story, dear friends?

"It is easy to despise what you cannot get."


JML
ascendo tuum

I remember a schoolyard incident that made me laugh at the time and every

time I think on it I still have to smile.
Picture this - Two lads in heated debate over a game of marbles, (bools).
They are in dispute over who won the last set.
The little guy is actually in the right but the big guy will not give in
that he is in the wrong.
Little guy gets frustrated and storms off in high dudgeon saying, over his
shoulder, "Ach! Keep the bliddy bool - an Ah hope yer bliddy rabbits dee".
This last part, "An Ah hope yer rabbits dee", became the standard parting
shot of those admitting defeat in the entire school, and, even now, in my
own family.
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).

Jane Margaret Laight

Re: Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Jane Margaret Laight » 11 aug 2007 06:12:54

On Aug 10, 7:17 pm, "Robert Peffers." <peff...@btinternet.com> wrote:
"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1186772069.588136.22810@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...



On Aug 10, 1:44 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Jane Margaret Laight"...

Just another frustrated blimp on USENET.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

The story is told of a fox strolling through a verdant wood.

As he passes, he looks up and spies a bunch of grapes hanging from a
high branch.

"Umm, they look good," he thought to himself. "I bet that they will
taste good."

He backed up and took a running start, and jumped.

He did not get high enough.

He went back to his starting spot and tried again.

He almost got high enough this time, but not quite.

He tried and tried, again and again, but just couldn't get high enough
to grab the grapes.

Finally, he gave up.

As he walked away, he put his nose in the air and said: "I am sure
those grapes are sour."

The moral of the story, dear friends?

"It is easy to despise what you cannot get."

JML
ascendo tuum

I remember a schoolyard incident that made me laugh at the time and every
time I think on it I still have to smile.
Picture this - Two lads in heated debate over a game of marbles, (bools).
They are in dispute over who won the last set.
The little guy is actually in the right but the big guy will not give in
that he is in the wrong.
Little guy gets frustrated and storms off in high dudgeon saying, over his
shoulder, "Ach! Keep the bliddy bool - an Ah hope yer bliddy rabbits dee".
This last part, "An Ah hope yer rabbits dee", became the standard parting
shot of those admitting defeat in the entire school, and, even now, in my
own family.
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thanks--I could not have better expressed it myself!

JML

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