Italian discrepancy? Este in question

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Leo van de Pas

Italian discrepancy? Este in question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jul 2007 22:11:49

Don McArthur asked me to check something and a weird situation came to light.

ES by the Prince von Isenburg, volume II Tafel 123 shows
Obizzo III d'Este 1294-1352
married (1) 1317 Elisabeth of Saxe-Wittenberg married (2) 1347 Lippa Ariosta
by the first wife he had
1332 Beatrix -x-Waldemar von Anhalt
1333 Alda -x-Luigi II Gonzaga
1334 Rinaldo II
1335 Aldobrandino III
1337 Alisia -x-Guio da Polenta
1338 Niccolo
1340 Azzo
1342 Folco

Otto Brenner in his Nachkommen Gorms des Alten, page 98 gives Elisabeth of Saxe-Wittenberg and Obizzo III the following children
1332 Beatrix -x-Waldemar von Anhalt
1333 Alda -x-Luigi II Gonzaga
1334 Rinaldo II
1335 Aldolbrandino III
1336 Alisia
1338 Niccolo
1340 Azzo
As Elisabeth according to Brenner died in 1341 she has no Folco born in 1342

Now comes ES Schwennicke Volume I.1 Tafel 32
Obbizzo III married (1) May 1317 Giacoma Pepoli (2) in 1347 his lover Lippa Ariosto
no children by the first wife and the children by the second wife were legitimated by the pope in 1346
Aldobrandino III born 1335
Rinaldo
Azzo
Alda
Beatrice -x- Waldemar von Anhalt
Niccolo born 1338
Alisia -(1) Rinaldo de Bonacolsi (2) Guido da Polenta
Ugo born 1344

An important difference is that in the latest version Alda is not married, even though this marriage was also recorded on Sardimpex. Can anyone shine some light on what is going on?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Peter Stewart

Re: Italian discrepancy? Este in question

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 30 jul 2007 05:05:42

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.87.1185743536.14018.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Don McArthur asked me to check something and a weird situation came to
light.

ES by the Prince von Isenburg, volume II Tafel 123 shows
Obizzo III d'Este 1294-1352
married (1) 1317 Elisabeth of Saxe-Wittenberg married (2) 1347 Lippa
Ariosta
by the first wife he had
1332 Beatrix -x-Waldemar von Anhalt
1333 Alda -x-Luigi II Gonzaga
1334 Rinaldo II
1335 Aldobrandino III
1337 Alisia -x-Guio da Polenta
1338 Niccolo
1340 Azzo
1342 Folco

Otto Brenner in his Nachkommen Gorms des Alten, page 98 gives Elisabeth
of
Saxe-Wittenberg and Obizzo III the following children
1332 Beatrix -x-Waldemar von Anhalt
1333 Alda -x-Luigi II Gonzaga
1334 Rinaldo II
1335 Aldolbrandino III
1336 Alisia
1338 Niccolo
1340 Azzo
As Elisabeth according to Brenner died in 1341 she has no Folco born in
1342

Now comes ES Schwennicke Volume I.1 Tafel 32
Obbizzo III married (1) May 1317 Giacoma Pepoli (2) in 1347 his lover
Lippa
Ariosto no children by the first wife and the children by the second wife
were
legitimated by the pope in 1346
Aldobrandino III born 1335
Rinaldo
Azzo
Alda
Beatrice -x- Waldemar von Anhalt
Niccolo born 1338
Alisia -(1) Rinaldo de Bonacolsi (2) Guido da Polenta
Ugo born 1344

An important difference is that in the latest version Alda is not married,
even though
this marriage was also recorded on Sardimpex. Can anyone shine some light
on what
is going on?

It appears that Schwennicke is right - according to Muratori, _Delle
antichità estensi ed italiane_ (Modena, 1717-1740, facsimile Bologna, 1984),
Obizzo III married first in May 1317 Giacoma, daughter of Romeo de' Peppoli
of Bologna. After her death, he married his mistress Lippa Ariosti, known as
'la Bella', shortly before she died on 27 November 1347. She was the mother
of his surviving sons Aldobrandino, Niccolo, Folco, Ugo and Alberto, as well
as Rinaldo and Azzo who had predeceased their father, and of his daughters
Alda, Beatrice, Alisia and Costanza.

Luciano Chiappini agrees with this in _Gli Estensi_, second edition (Milan,
1967), adding another son Giovanni who may have been by a different
mistress. The sons were legitimated by Pope Clement VI, disappointing the
hopes of their cousins for succession to Obizzo.

I don't see any information about the Gonzaga marriage for Alda in either of
these, or anything to account for the Saxe-Wittenberg wife given by
Isenburg, but I have not had time to check thoroughly.

Peter Stewart

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