Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

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Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jul 2007 18:43:58

The recent thread examining Iseult Pantulf's various marriages has
shown how little seems to be known about the chronology of the early
Pantulf family.

According to Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p 1059), Iseult's
grandfather, William Pantulf, was the son of Ivo Pantulf and Alice de
Verdun; he married Burga de Stuteville, with whom he founded a nunnery
at Langley, "circa 1150". His three legitimate sons, William, Roger
and Philip, were apparently named in a charter of 1166, so were born
before the latter date.

The entry for Ivo Pantulf states that he succeeded his father "before
c1137/1138" and died in 1175. By his first marriage, he had Hugh,
Hamelin and Brice, and by his second marriage (to Alice de Verdun) he
had William and Norman.

Hugh was his father's heir, inheriting the family's estate at Wem. He
is the subject of an ODNB article, which states he married Christiana
Fitzalan in 1170, and died in 1224.

These latter two dates seem to cast a question mark over the
activities of William, apparently his younger brother (in fact, two
other brothers seem to be between them). If Hugh married in 1170 and
died in 1224, is it likely that his younger brother should have been
married and founding priories by circa 1150?

I am also intrigued by the fact that Ivo Pantulf's apparent paternal
grandmother, the wife of the first William Pantulf, was named
Lesceline (see ODNB article on William). So far as I know, Lesceline
is a rather unusual name. Ivo's second wife, Alice de Verdon, was the
daughter of Norman de Verdun, whose wife was Lesceline, the daughter
of Geoffrey de Clinton by his wife Lesceline [DD, pp 402-3]. This is
strongly suggestive of an earlier connection between the Clintons and
the Pantulfs, and perhaps calls into further question the traditional
genealogy of the Pantulfs on consanguinity grounds.

Michael Andrews-Reading

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 25 jul 2007 19:22:04

Interesting:

I know of the following Lesceline's or possible variants:

1. m abt 1077 Wm Pantulf b abt 1042
2. m. abt 1085 Geoffrey de Mandeville b. abt 1053
3. m. est 1070 Otuel fitz Hugh D'Avranches b. est 1070
4. m. abt 1120 Geoffrey de Clinton b, abt 1090
5. m. est 1170 Roger fitz Alured b. est 1150

6. Lescila m. abt 1092 Goderic of Norfolk b. abt 1040
7. Lesca m. Robert le Despencer b abt 1051.

There may have been more of course and I do not know the parentage of
any of them, although some may been related.

Sorry I couldn't add more.

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jul 2007 23:56:45

On 25 Jul., 19:22, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Interesting:

I know of the following Lesceline's or possible variants:

1. m abt 1077 Wm Pantulf b abt 1042
2. m. abt 1085 Geoffrey de Mandeville b. abt 1053
3. m. est 1070 Otuel fitz Hugh D'Avranches b. est 1070
4. m. abt 1120 Geoffrey de Clinton b, abt 1090
5. m. est 1170 Roger fitz Alured b. est 1150

6. Lescila m. abt 1092 Goderic of Norfolk b. abt 1040
7. Lesca m. Robert le Despencer b abt 1051.

There may have been more of course and I do not know the parentage of
any of them, although some may been related.

Sorry I couldn't add more.

Doug Smith

Many thanks, Doug, that's a useful summary addition.

Another chronological point arises in relation to the Verdun family.
According to a post here by Peter Sutton on 4 August 2002, Mark Hagger
in his book "Fortunes of a Norman Family" shows that Bertram de Verdun
came of age between September 1158 and September 1159, and was thus
born 1137-1138. He was the son of Alice de Verdun, who is said to
have been the mother of William Pantulf, husband of Burga de
Stuteville by c1150. It seems unlikely (although not impossible) that
a twelve-year old should see his nephew married.

I wonder if:

(a) William Pantulf, husband of Burga de Stuteville has been correctly
identified as the son of Ivo Pantulf by Alice de Verdun, because of
the chronological difficulties it seems that placement gives rise to.

(b) Ivo Pantulf was in fact the son of Robert fitz William Pantulf as
is often stated (eg DD, p 1059; ODNB says he was "probably Robert's
son") given the possibility that his putative grandmother and his
second wife's mother shared an unusual Christian name.

MA-R

WJhonson

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 jul 2007 01:32:01

Other than these Lesceline's, I have an even *earlier* Lesceline to throw at you.

In my database, evidently spontaneously generated from the ether, is a Lesceline, wife to William de Ramsey of Penthievre uh..... Brittany ?

This William is supposed to be the son of Eudes (Odo) "Count of half of Brittany" who died 7 Jan 1078/9 by his wife Orguen

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2007 09:02:57

On 26 Jul., 01:47, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 07/25/07 16:00:43 Pacific Standard Time, mj...@btinternet.com writes:
He was the son of Alice de Verdun, who is said to
have been the mother of William Pantulf, husband of Burga de
Stuteville by c1150. It seems unlikely (although not impossible) that
a twelve-year old should see his nephew married.

I'm not following.
I have William and Bertram as brothers (or half-brothers), not uncle-nephew.

That is Alice de Verdon born 1095 to 1123 had at least two sons
William Pantulf married Berga de Stuteville by 1150 and
Bertram de Verdon, Senschal of Ireland b 1137/8, died 1192 in the Holy Land

Interesting, Bertram also has a daughter Lesceline doesn't he?
She married Hugh de Lacy, 1st Earl of Ulster

Will Johnson

I think a slight confusion has crept into your notes:

Alice de Verdon was the daughter and Norman de Verdon and Lesceline de
Clinton. She married (as his second wife) Ivo Pantulf, and is said to
be the mother of William Pantulf.

Bertram de Verdon was the son of Norman de Verdon and Lesceline de
Clinton - i.e. he was not Alice's son, but brother. Accordingly, he
is alleged to have been the uncle, not the brother, of William
Pantulf, married by c1150.

Additionally, I think the "about 1120" marriage date for Geoffrey de
Clinton and the elder Lesceline might be too late. According to his
article in ODNB, Geoffrey was active in the royal service by 1110, and
his nephew became Bishop of Coventry in 1129. We know from the
foundation charters of Kenilworth Priory that he was married with
children by 1124, and that his son and heir, the younger Geoffrey, was
a minor at his father's death in c1135.

MA-R

tallbloke

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av tallbloke » 26 jul 2007 13:34:12

WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in news:mailman.751.1185410009.5496.gen-
medieval@rootsweb.com:

William de Ramsey

According to this page:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... p27838.htm

He was the father of Emma who married Adam de Brusse. Their child according
to Collins Peerage was Robert III de Brus who was born at Skelton N. Yorks,
however John Ravillious isn't sure of this.

I have an Agatha de Brus marrying Ralf de Taillebois Grandson of Eudes of
Brittany (Son of Ribald of Middleham).

Skelton lies in Swaledale around 10 miles north of Middleham.



--
tallbloke
"Property is nine tenths of the problem" - Dr Winston 'O' Boogie

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 26 jul 2007 23:51:42

On Jul 26, 8:34 am, tallbloke <spamt...@tallbloke.net> wrote:
WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote in news:mailman.751.1185410009.5496.gen-
medie...@rootsweb.com:

William de Ramsey

According to this page:http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~havens5/p27838.htm

He was the father of Emma who married Adam de Brusse. Their child according
to Collins Peerage was Robert III de Brus who was born at Skelton N. Yorks,
however John Ravillious isn't sure of this.

I have an Agatha de Brus marrying Ralf de Taillebois Grandson of Eudes of
Brittany (Son of Ribald of Middleham).

Skelton lies in Swaledale around 10 miles north of Middleham.

--
tallbloke
"Property is nine tenths of the problem" - Dr Winston 'O' Boogie

From the page cited above, includes a number of assumptions:

"William de Ramsay of Brittany was also found as William de Ramsay of
Brittany.1
Birth* circa 1040 William de Ramsay was born circa 1040 at
Penthievre, Morbihan, Bretagne, France.1
!AInfoNew* 1041 Andrew, World Connect db=andwai, shows William
Ramsay as son of Conan by Ermengarde of Anjou. However chronology
would indicate that William was the younger son of Conan's son Eudes
by Orguen, shown on a chart in CP. This William is the only William
shown as a descendant of Conan Duke of Brittany.

Some say that he was a Duke of Brittany. CP doesn't give him a very
important role in the chart; he looks like a younger son (born in the
middle among about 8 others) of minor importance. He is given no
surname or title on the chart. I am assuming, given that people
believe he was of Brittany, that William de Ramsay is the William
indicated on CP's chart. (Jim Weber).1
Marriage* 1070 William de Ramsay of Brittany married Lesceline
1070.1"

Doug

Gjest

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2007 23:53:07

On 25 Jul., 23:56, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Another chronological point arises in relation to the Verdun family.
According to a post here by Peter Sutton on 4 August 2002, Mark Hagger
in his book "Fortunes of a Norman Family" shows that Bertram de Verdun
came of age between September 1158 and September 1159, and was thus
born 1137-1138. He was the son of Alice de Verdun,

Recte: *brother* - thanks to eagle-eyed Will Johnson for pointing this
out, and apologies for having led others astray!

MAR

who is said to
have been the mother of William Pantulf, husband of Burga de
Stuteville by c1150. It seems unlikely (although not impossible) that
a twelve-year old should see his nephew married.

tallbloke

Re: Pantulf chronology (or Lesceline: what's in a name?)

Legg inn av tallbloke » 27 jul 2007 10:48:09

WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in
news:mailman.791.1185490735.5496.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:

In a message dated 07/26/07 05:35:46 Pacific Standard Time,
spamtrap@tallbloke.net writes: According to this page:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... p27838.htm

He was the father of Emma who married Adam de Brusse. Their child
according to Collins Peerage was Robert III de Brus who was born at
Skelton N. Yorks, however John Ravillious isn't sure of this.
I have an Agatha de Brus marrying Ralf de Taillebois Grandson of Eudes
of Brittany (Son of Ribald of Middleham).

a seemingly well-documented page is... not at all well documented.

Which is why I treat such pages as sources of potentially useful
connections rather than definite data.

Stirnet, that other well known organ of veracity, also has copius notes on
it's
de Brusse page emphasising uncertainty about some aspects of the lineage.
Worth noting though that it has less equivocation about Agnes who married
Ralf de Taillebois being the grandaughter of Adam de Brusse and Emma of
Brittany.

I Just thought it worth the mention because Ralph de Taillebois was
himself grandson of Eudes of Brittany and Penthievre.

Her Brother Adam, lord of Skelton, married Joanna de Meschines daughter
of Runulph, 2nd earl of Chester.


--
tallbloke
"Property is nine tenths of the problem" - Dr Winston 'O' Boogie

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