Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
The Wikipedia entry for "Converso" states that Sancha de Ayala (d.
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
Thanks,
Mark Bridge
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
Thanks,
Mark Bridge
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
Do they give names for those conversos? Or is it a stab in the dark?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mark_bridge@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:39 PM
Subject: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mark_bridge@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:39 PM
Subject: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
The Wikipedia entry for "Converso" states that Sancha de Ayala (d.
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
Thanks,
Mark Bridge
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Gjest
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
The article -- citing Roth -- states that the "founders" of Sancha's
father's family, "Gome Perez [Mayor of Toledo] and his wife Horabuena
(Ora Buena)", were conversos. Gome was apparently Sancha's great-great
grandfather in the male line.
The article also states that Sancha's mother Ines de Ayala was "from
another important Jewish converso family who also had among her
ancestors high 'Old Christian' aristocracy". No source is given for
this statement.
Best,
Mark
On Jul 22, 1:21 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
father's family, "Gome Perez [Mayor of Toledo] and his wife Horabuena
(Ora Buena)", were conversos. Gome was apparently Sancha's great-great
grandfather in the male line.
The article also states that Sancha's mother Ines de Ayala was "from
another important Jewish converso family who also had among her
ancestors high 'Old Christian' aristocracy". No source is given for
this statement.
Best,
Mark
On Jul 22, 1:21 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Do they give names for those conversos? Or is it a stab in the dark?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
In article <1185100775.408249.247880@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bridge@hotmail.com wrote:
In article <1185108124.194401.213650@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bridge@hotmail.com wrote:
Given the poor quality of this Wikipedia article I am doubtful Roth's
book makes any such claims but will be interested to see what is in it.
Even if any of Sancha's ancestors in Toledo were converted Jews, they
would ordinarily not be called 'conversos', as this term is usually
understood to describe the forced converts of the era of persecution
after 1391. It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Spain before that date, got so heavily written into this bad wikipedia
article which misrepresents an important subject.
According to the most comprehensive local scholarship (e.g. stuff like
Javier Rodriquez Marquina, "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo," in
_Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias y Comunicaciones Presentadas al I
Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo 1975_ [Toledo,
1981]), Sancha de Ayala's father's ancestors in Toledo were a mixed bag
of Toledan families. Some were most likely Mozarabic
families--Christians who had been living under Muslim rule before the
annexation of Toledo by Alfonso VI. An example is Abdul Aziz ibn
Lampader, surely Sancha's ancestor, who was alcalde of the city in 1125.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
...._, but don't find it). The bottom line is that it is conventional to
say all the apparently native urban families who bore Muslim names in
the time of Alfonso VI were Mozarabic Christians, but some of them may
have been Jews. But in this early era (11th-early 12th c) there was no
organized persecution or forced conversion and the label 'Converso'
which connotes a distinct circumstance and era is simply wrong.
Todd spent a great deal of time snooping in these Toledo families, and
maybe he has more to say on specific possibilities of real or alleged
Jewish ancestry.
Turning to Sancha's mother's side I don't see any evidence or assertions
that the lords of Ayala or any allied family (Haro, Ceballos, Carrillo,
Osorio, etc.) have been identified as converted Jews.
By the way, on Tuesday afternoon I had the chance (for five minutes: the
kids were twitchy) to inspect the tomb of Sancha de Ayala's brother, now
in the Museu Fredric Mares in Barcelona. A very fine alabaster effigy,
like that of his uncle Pero Lopes de Ayala and those of his grandparents
Fernan Perez de Ayala and Elvira de Ceballos, at Quejana (Alava). The
triple-towered castles of his paternal arms flank the arms of the Orden
de la Banda on the visible side of the tomb. The inscription was
preserved as well, and reads:
AQUI:YAZ:PERO:SUARES:ALC
ALDE:MAYOR:DE:TOLEDO:QUE
DIOS:PDONE:FIIO:DE:DON:DIEGO:G
OMEZ:ALCALDE:MAYOR:DE:TO
LEDO:QUE:DIOS:PDONE:E:DE:DO
NAN:YNES:DE:AYALA:E:FINO
EN:SERVICIO:DEL:REY:DON:IU
AN:EN:LA:BATALLA:DE:TRON
COSO:MARTES:XXVIII:DIAS:DE
L:MES:DE:MAYO:ANO:DEL:NUE
STRO:SALVADOR:IHI:XPO:DE:MIL
E:CCC:E:LXXX:E:CINCO:ANOS
I'll stick a photo of the tomb (but alas not the inscription--there was
no postcard and my camera was broken) on my blog.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
mark_bridge@hotmail.com wrote:
The Wikipedia entry for "Converso" states that Sancha de Ayala (d.
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
In article <1185108124.194401.213650@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bridge@hotmail.com wrote:
The article -- citing Roth -- states that the "founders" of Sancha's
father's family, "Gome Perez [Mayor of Toledo] and his wife Horabuena
(Ora Buena)", were conversos. Gome was apparently Sancha's great-great
grandfather in the male line.
The article also states that Sancha's mother Ines de Ayala was "from
another important Jewish converso family who also had among her
ancestors high 'Old Christian' aristocracy". No source is given for
this statement.
Given the poor quality of this Wikipedia article I am doubtful Roth's
book makes any such claims but will be interested to see what is in it.
Even if any of Sancha's ancestors in Toledo were converted Jews, they
would ordinarily not be called 'conversos', as this term is usually
understood to describe the forced converts of the era of persecution
after 1391. It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Spain before that date, got so heavily written into this bad wikipedia
article which misrepresents an important subject.
According to the most comprehensive local scholarship (e.g. stuff like
Javier Rodriquez Marquina, "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo," in
_Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias y Comunicaciones Presentadas al I
Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo 1975_ [Toledo,
1981]), Sancha de Ayala's father's ancestors in Toledo were a mixed bag
of Toledan families. Some were most likely Mozarabic
families--Christians who had been living under Muslim rule before the
annexation of Toledo by Alfonso VI. An example is Abdul Aziz ibn
Lampader, surely Sancha's ancestor, who was alcalde of the city in 1125.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
...._, but don't find it). The bottom line is that it is conventional to
say all the apparently native urban families who bore Muslim names in
the time of Alfonso VI were Mozarabic Christians, but some of them may
have been Jews. But in this early era (11th-early 12th c) there was no
organized persecution or forced conversion and the label 'Converso'
which connotes a distinct circumstance and era is simply wrong.
Todd spent a great deal of time snooping in these Toledo families, and
maybe he has more to say on specific possibilities of real or alleged
Jewish ancestry.
Turning to Sancha's mother's side I don't see any evidence or assertions
that the lords of Ayala or any allied family (Haro, Ceballos, Carrillo,
Osorio, etc.) have been identified as converted Jews.
By the way, on Tuesday afternoon I had the chance (for five minutes: the
kids were twitchy) to inspect the tomb of Sancha de Ayala's brother, now
in the Museu Fredric Mares in Barcelona. A very fine alabaster effigy,
like that of his uncle Pero Lopes de Ayala and those of his grandparents
Fernan Perez de Ayala and Elvira de Ceballos, at Quejana (Alava). The
triple-towered castles of his paternal arms flank the arms of the Orden
de la Banda on the visible side of the tomb. The inscription was
preserved as well, and reads:
AQUI:YAZ:PERO:SUARES:ALC
ALDE:MAYOR:DE:TOLEDO:QUE
DIOS:PDONE:FIIO:DE:DON:DIEGO:G
OMEZ:ALCALDE:MAYOR:DE:TO
LEDO:QUE:DIOS:PDONE:E:DE:DO
NAN:YNES:DE:AYALA:E:FINO
EN:SERVICIO:DEL:REY:DON:IU
AN:EN:LA:BATALLA:DE:TRON
COSO:MARTES:XXVIII:DIAS:DE
L:MES:DE:MAYO:ANO:DEL:NUE
STRO:SALVADOR:IHI:XPO:DE:MIL
E:CCC:E:LXXX:E:CINCO:ANOS
I'll stick a photo of the tomb (but alas not the inscription--there was
no postcard and my camera was broken) on my blog.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
I wrote:
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/66
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
By the way, on Tuesday afternoon I had the chance (for five minutes: the
kids were twitchy) to inspect the tomb of Sancha de Ayala's brother, now
in the Museu Fredric Mares in Barcelona. A very fine alabaster effigy,
like that of his uncle Pero Lopes de Ayala and those of his grandparents
Fernan Perez de Ayala and Elvira de Ceballos, at Quejana (Alava). The
triple-towered castles of his paternal arms flank the arms of the Orden
de la Banda on the visible side of the tomb. The inscription was
preserved as well, and reads:
AQUI:YAZ:PERO:SUARES:ALC
ALDE:MAYOR:DE:TOLEDO:QUE
DIOS:PDONE:FIIO:DE:DON:DIEGO:G
OMEZ:ALCALDE:MAYOR:DE:TO
LEDO:QUE:DIOS:PDONE:E:DE:DO
NAN:YNES:DE:AYALA:E:FINO
EN:SERVICIO:DEL:REY:DON:IU
AN:EN:LA:BATALLA:DE:TRON
COSO:MARTES:XXVIII:DIAS:DE
L:MES:DE:MAYO:ANO:DEL:NUE
STRO:SALVADOR:IHI:XPO:DE:MIL
E:CCC:E:LXXX:E:CINCO:ANOS
I'll stick a photo of the tomb (but alas not the inscription--there was
no postcard and my camera was broken) on my blog.
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/66
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Gjest
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
Thank you for a fascinating answer, Nat. I look forward to dipping
into the works you mention. I'll also have a look at Roth when I get a
chance. I guess it's possible that he has found something of interest
on the family.
Thanks also for posting the details and photo of Sancha's brother's
tomb.
Best,
Mark
On Jul 22, 5:33 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
into the works you mention. I'll also have a look at Roth when I get a
chance. I guess it's possible that he has found something of interest
on the family.
Thanks also for posting the details and photo of Sancha's brother's
tomb.
Best,
Mark
On Jul 22, 5:33 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Given the poor quality of this Wikipedia article I am doubtful Roth's
book makes any such claims but will be interested to see what is in it.
Even if any of Sancha's ancestors in Toledo were converted Jews, they
would ordinarily not be called 'conversos', as this term is usually
understood to describe the forced converts of the era of persecution
after 1391. It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Spain before that date, got so heavily written into this bad wikipedia
article which misrepresents an important subject.
According to the most comprehensive local scholarship (e.g. stuff like
Javier Rodriquez Marquina, "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo," in
_Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias y Comunicaciones Presentadas al I
Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo 1975_ [Toledo,
1981]), Sancha de Ayala's father's ancestors in Toledo were a mixed bag
of Toledan families. Some were most likely Mozarabic
families--Christians who had been living under Muslim rule before the
annexation of Toledo by Alfonso VI. An example is Abdul Aziz ibn
Lampader, surely Sancha's ancestor, who was alcalde of the city in 1125.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
..._, but don't find it). The bottom line is that it is conventional to
say all the apparently native urban families who bore Muslim names in
the time of Alfonso VI were Mozarabic Christians, but some of them may
have been Jews. But in this early era (11th-early 12th c) there was no
organized persecution or forced conversion and the label 'Converso'
which connotes a distinct circumstance and era is simply wrong.
Todd spent a great deal of time snooping in these Toledo families, and
maybe he has more to say on specific possibilities of real or alleged
Jewish ancestry.
Turning to Sancha's mother's side I don't see any evidence or assertions
that the lords of Ayala or any allied family (Haro, Ceballos, Carrillo,
Osorio, etc.) have been identified as converted Jews.
By the way, on Tuesday afternoon I had the chance (for five minutes: the
kids were twitchy) to inspect the tomb of Sancha de Ayala's brother, now
in the Museu Fredric Mares in Barcelona. A very fine alabaster effigy,
like that of his uncle Pero Lopes de Ayala and those of his grandparents
Fernan Perez de Ayala and Elvira de Ceballos, at Quejana (Alava). The
triple-towered castles of his paternal arms flank the arms of the Orden
de la Banda on the visible side of the tomb. The inscription was
preserved as well, and reads:
AQUI:YAZ:PERO:SUARES:ALC
ALDE:MAYOR:DE:TOLEDO:QUE
DIOS:PDONE:FIIO:DE:DON:DIEGO:G
OMEZ:ALCALDE:MAYOR:DE:TO
LEDO:QUE:DIOS:PDONE:E:DE:DO
NAN:YNES:DE:AYALA:E:FINO
EN:SERVICIO:DEL:REY:DON:IU
AN:EN:LA:BATALLA:DE:TRON
COSO:MARTES:XXVIII:DIAS:DE
L:MES:DE:MAYO:ANO:DEL:NUE
STRO:SALVADOR:IHI:XPO:DE:MIL
E:CCC:E:LXXX:E:CINCO:ANOS
I'll stick a photo of the tomb (but alas not the inscription--there was
no postcard and my camera was broken) on my blog.
Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net
-
taf
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
On Jul 22, 9:33 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Speaking of the writings (ca. 1449) of Fernan Diaz de Toledo "a
converso counsellor and secretary of the king":
"Of great interest is Diaz's statement that "D. Juan Gomez,"
archbishop of Toledo, was a converso and son of a Jew (_judio_; read
perhaps _judia_?) of Toledo (246). No such name appears in any list of
the bishops of the city, and the only possibility seems to be the
archbishop Gutierre Gomez (1310-19), who was in fact the son of Gome
Perez, alguacil mayor of Toledo, and his wife Horabuena (Ora buena).
[ref. 25] That name is so exclusively Jewish in medieval Spain, and
particularly Toledo, that there can be little doubt as to her
background. The archbiship's brother, interestingly, was Fernand
Gomez, chancellor of Fernando IV and frequently involved with the Jew
Samuel who was in the service of that king. It happens that Fernan
Alvarez de Toledo (d. ca. 1460), the conde de Alba, was a nephew of
Gutierre Gomez and also of Inigo Lopez de Mendoza, which further
supports the possibility of the converso background of the
archbishop." p. 94-5
(This last appears to relate to the statement of the previous page,
referring to the writings of Lope de Barrientos, d. 1469: "Of great
significance is the list he gives of prominent Christian families who
have converso members or are of converso descent. This reads like a
veritable 'Who's Who' of Spanish nobility: the Manriques, Mendozas,
Rojas, Sarabias, Pimenteles, Lujanes, SOlis, Mirandas, Ororios,
Saucedos (Salcedos), and others, including relatives of Hurtado de
Mendoza, _mayordomo_ of the king, and the _mariscal_ Diego Fernandez
de Cordoba. p. 93)
[note 25] "Another remote possibility might be Gutierre Alvarez, also
called Gomez de Toledo, who was archbishop in 1442 and died in
1446. . . . Nevertheless, the strongest suspicion falls on Gutierre
Gomez, because both his mother's name and the relationship of the
family to other conversos, on which see Fernando de Pulgar, _Claros
varones_, ed. R. Brian Tate (Oxford, 1971, 87 n. 77)
So we have an argument based on three points. First, we have the
direct attestation, but using the wrong name. Second, we have the name
of the mother. The author provides no basis for his statement that
the name is exclusively Jewish. I have seen the name in Christian
families, but who knows, they might have descended from a conversa of
the same name. Finally we have the "related to a person who is
related to another person who is in a list of those "descended from or
related to" conversos. This last is of no value whatsoever. All in
all, it looks pretty poor to me.
That being said, the article makes several factual errors. First, Roth
in no way suggests that Gomez Perez himself was a converso, just his
wife. (In fact, Gomez Perez is almost certainly son of alguacil mayor
Pedro Suarez). Second, it calls him "Mayor" which was not his title.
Third, it uses the name Gomez de Toledo for the family, which with an
overdose of generosity could be called anachronistic, but is in
reality just plain wrong. Fourth, it relates that Ines de Ayala was a
converso, for which there is no evidence whatsoever (Roth, for
example, calls both her brother and nephew "old Castillian".) That is
apart from the inappropriateness of such a section, which provides
little understanding of the subject of the article, even were it
accurate.
Roth certainly uses it more broadly.
It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Misleading, yes, but not weird, at least by Wiki standards. Someone
descending from Sancha and lacking a sense of proportionality has
decided this is the place to go into a complete account of her descent
and descendants. Sort of par for the course for Wiki. Someone should
have deleted it years ago.
.. . . to be used with care. I am not entirely convinced that this
particular connection is authentic.
Earliest ancestor is Pedro Juanez, IIRC. The problem is that the
conversos almost always adopted traditional Christian names in their
entirety, so names provide no guide whatsoever. This is a point
seemingly missed by some who look at every unusual name, such as
Illan, as evidence of converso origins.
The bottom line is that it is conventional to
The situation is the same as with Muslim converts. There are almost
certainly numerous muslims in the pedigrees of the medieval spanish
families, but that is an entirely different conclusion than pointing
to a particular line and saying that this particular line is converso.
The latter requires proof.
I have seen a lot of vague claims, but with the exception of the one
above these appear simply in the form of bold-faced statements without
the slightest hint of their basis.
For Osorio, see above. This brings up another problem. At what point
does a converso family cease to be conversos and just become part of
the culture. Even if there is a Jew somewhere back the pedigree, does
that make every descendant through every line a converso, after 25
generations or more? This is turning the pure blood standard on its
head. There is an undercurrent in such analyses that anyone with a
single Jewish ancestor, no matter how far back, is Jewish (also, by
the way, seen in the "Queen Elizabeth is African" claims that
frequently make their appearances).
Along these lines, Lope de Barrientos made the following observation,
(Roth, p. 93) ". . . since virtually all of the Jews in Visigothic
Spain converted to Christianity, who among the Christians of Spain
could be certain that he is not a descendant of those conversos
(197)?"
taf
wrote:
In article <1185100775.408249.247...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bri...@hotmail.com wrote:
The Wikipedia entry for "Converso" states that Sancha de Ayala (d.
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
In article <1185108124.194401.213...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bri...@hotmail.com wrote:
The article -- citing Roth -- states that the "founders" of Sancha's
father's family, "Gome Perez [Mayor of Toledo] and his wife Horabuena
(Ora Buena)", were conversos. Gome was apparently Sancha's great-great
grandfather in the male line.
The article also states that Sancha's mother Ines de Ayala was "from
another important Jewish converso family who also had among her
ancestors high 'Old Christian' aristocracy". No source is given for
this statement.
Given the poor quality of this Wikipedia article I am doubtful Roth's
book makes any such claims but will be interested to see what is in it.
Speaking of the writings (ca. 1449) of Fernan Diaz de Toledo "a
converso counsellor and secretary of the king":
"Of great interest is Diaz's statement that "D. Juan Gomez,"
archbishop of Toledo, was a converso and son of a Jew (_judio_; read
perhaps _judia_?) of Toledo (246). No such name appears in any list of
the bishops of the city, and the only possibility seems to be the
archbishop Gutierre Gomez (1310-19), who was in fact the son of Gome
Perez, alguacil mayor of Toledo, and his wife Horabuena (Ora buena).
[ref. 25] That name is so exclusively Jewish in medieval Spain, and
particularly Toledo, that there can be little doubt as to her
background. The archbiship's brother, interestingly, was Fernand
Gomez, chancellor of Fernando IV and frequently involved with the Jew
Samuel who was in the service of that king. It happens that Fernan
Alvarez de Toledo (d. ca. 1460), the conde de Alba, was a nephew of
Gutierre Gomez and also of Inigo Lopez de Mendoza, which further
supports the possibility of the converso background of the
archbishop." p. 94-5
(This last appears to relate to the statement of the previous page,
referring to the writings of Lope de Barrientos, d. 1469: "Of great
significance is the list he gives of prominent Christian families who
have converso members or are of converso descent. This reads like a
veritable 'Who's Who' of Spanish nobility: the Manriques, Mendozas,
Rojas, Sarabias, Pimenteles, Lujanes, SOlis, Mirandas, Ororios,
Saucedos (Salcedos), and others, including relatives of Hurtado de
Mendoza, _mayordomo_ of the king, and the _mariscal_ Diego Fernandez
de Cordoba. p. 93)
[note 25] "Another remote possibility might be Gutierre Alvarez, also
called Gomez de Toledo, who was archbishop in 1442 and died in
1446. . . . Nevertheless, the strongest suspicion falls on Gutierre
Gomez, because both his mother's name and the relationship of the
family to other conversos, on which see Fernando de Pulgar, _Claros
varones_, ed. R. Brian Tate (Oxford, 1971, 87 n. 77)
So we have an argument based on three points. First, we have the
direct attestation, but using the wrong name. Second, we have the name
of the mother. The author provides no basis for his statement that
the name is exclusively Jewish. I have seen the name in Christian
families, but who knows, they might have descended from a conversa of
the same name. Finally we have the "related to a person who is
related to another person who is in a list of those "descended from or
related to" conversos. This last is of no value whatsoever. All in
all, it looks pretty poor to me.
That being said, the article makes several factual errors. First, Roth
in no way suggests that Gomez Perez himself was a converso, just his
wife. (In fact, Gomez Perez is almost certainly son of alguacil mayor
Pedro Suarez). Second, it calls him "Mayor" which was not his title.
Third, it uses the name Gomez de Toledo for the family, which with an
overdose of generosity could be called anachronistic, but is in
reality just plain wrong. Fourth, it relates that Ines de Ayala was a
converso, for which there is no evidence whatsoever (Roth, for
example, calls both her brother and nephew "old Castillian".) That is
apart from the inappropriateness of such a section, which provides
little understanding of the subject of the article, even were it
accurate.
Even if any of Sancha's ancestors in Toledo were converted Jews, they
would ordinarily not be called 'conversos', as this term is usually
understood to describe the forced converts of the era of persecution
after 1391.
Roth certainly uses it more broadly.
It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Spain before that date, got so heavily written into this bad wikipedia
article which misrepresents an important subject.
Misleading, yes, but not weird, at least by Wiki standards. Someone
descending from Sancha and lacking a sense of proportionality has
decided this is the place to go into a complete account of her descent
and descendants. Sort of par for the course for Wiki. Someone should
have deleted it years ago.
According to the most comprehensive local scholarship (e.g. stuff like
Javier Rodriquez Marquina, "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo," in
_Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias y Comunicaciones Presentadas al I
Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo 1975_ [Toledo,
1981]), Sancha de Ayala's father's ancestors in Toledo were a mixed bag
of Toledan families. Some were most likely Mozarabic
families--Christians who had been living under Muslim rule before the
annexation of Toledo by Alfonso VI. An example is Abdul Aziz ibn
Lampader, surely Sancha's ancestor, who was alcalde of the city in 1125.
.. . . to be used with care. I am not entirely convinced that this
particular connection is authentic.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
..._, but don't find it).
Earliest ancestor is Pedro Juanez, IIRC. The problem is that the
conversos almost always adopted traditional Christian names in their
entirety, so names provide no guide whatsoever. This is a point
seemingly missed by some who look at every unusual name, such as
Illan, as evidence of converso origins.
The bottom line is that it is conventional to
say all the apparently native urban families who bore Muslim names in
the time of Alfonso VI were Mozarabic Christians, but some of them may
have been Jews. But in this early era (11th-early 12th c) there was no
organized persecution or forced conversion and the label 'Converso'
which connotes a distinct circumstance and era is simply wrong.
The situation is the same as with Muslim converts. There are almost
certainly numerous muslims in the pedigrees of the medieval spanish
families, but that is an entirely different conclusion than pointing
to a particular line and saying that this particular line is converso.
The latter requires proof.
Todd spent a great deal of time snooping in these Toledo families, and
maybe he has more to say on specific possibilities of real or alleged
Jewish ancestry.
I have seen a lot of vague claims, but with the exception of the one
above these appear simply in the form of bold-faced statements without
the slightest hint of their basis.
Turning to Sancha's mother's side I don't see any evidence or assertions
that the lords of Ayala or any allied family (Haro, Ceballos, Carrillo,
Osorio, etc.) have been identified as converted Jews.
For Osorio, see above. This brings up another problem. At what point
does a converso family cease to be conversos and just become part of
the culture. Even if there is a Jew somewhere back the pedigree, does
that make every descendant through every line a converso, after 25
generations or more? This is turning the pure blood standard on its
head. There is an undercurrent in such analyses that anyone with a
single Jewish ancestor, no matter how far back, is Jewish (also, by
the way, seen in the "Queen Elizabeth is African" claims that
frequently make their appearances).
Along these lines, Lope de Barrientos made the following observation,
(Roth, p. 93) ". . . since virtually all of the Jews in Visigothic
Spain converted to Christianity, who among the Christians of Spain
could be certain that he is not a descendant of those conversos
(197)?"
taf
-
taf
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
Second, we have the name
of the mother. The author provides no basis for his statement that
the name is exclusively Jewish. I have seen the name in Christian
families, but who knows, they might have descended from a conversa of
the same name.
Let me add, the following article has numerous Orabuenas, none of them
obviously conversas:
personales.ya.com/tardio/Zips/se%F1orios.pdf
taf
-
taf
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
A couple of corrections -
On Jul 24, 2:31 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
(typo) This last should be Osorios.
This should be Pedro Julianez (Illanes) who was a Toledo civic
official in the early 1100s. While he could be a converso, there is
nothing in the name to suggest it, and only the lack of earlier
records to allow this speculation. This, however, is probably due to
the general paucity of pre-Reconquest Toledo records. I think it is
more likely he was a Mozarab.
taf
On Jul 24, 2:31 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
(This last appears to relate to the statement of the previous page,
referring to the writings of Lope de Barrientos, d. 1469: "Of great
significance is the list he gives of prominent Christian families who
have converso members or are of converso descent. This reads like a
veritable 'Who's Who' of Spanish nobility: the Manriques, Mendozas,
Rojas, Sarabias, Pimenteles, Lujanes, SOlis, Mirandas, Ororios,
(typo) This last should be Osorios.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
..._, but don't find it).
Earliest ancestor is Pedro Juanez, IIRC.
This should be Pedro Julianez (Illanes) who was a Toledo civic
official in the early 1100s. While he could be a converso, there is
nothing in the name to suggest it, and only the lack of earlier
records to allow this speculation. This, however, is probably due to
the general paucity of pre-Reconquest Toledo records. I think it is
more likely he was a Mozarab.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Converso ancestors of Sancha de Ayala
Todd,
Many thanks for posting the relevant extracts from Roth with your
comments. As you say, his case for the family's Jewish origin doesn't
seem strong.
Interesting references to Lope de Barrientos.
Mark
On Jul 24, 10:31 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
Many thanks for posting the relevant extracts from Roth with your
comments. As you say, his case for the family's Jewish origin doesn't
seem strong.
Interesting references to Lope de Barrientos.
Mark
On Jul 24, 10:31 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Jul 22, 9:33 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net
wrote:
In article <1185100775.408249.247...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bri...@hotmail.com wrote:
The Wikipedia entry for "Converso" states that Sancha de Ayala (d.
1418), wife of Sir Walter Blount, was a descendant of conversos (as
well as Old Christians), citing Norman Roth, Conversos, Inquisition,
and the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Madison, WI: The University
of Wisconcin Press, 2002, pp. 94-95, 333. Has anyone come across this
book? Is Roth correct?
Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
In article <1185108124.194401.213...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
mark_bri...@hotmail.com wrote:
The article -- citing Roth -- states that the "founders" of Sancha's
father's family, "Gome Perez [Mayor of Toledo] and his wife Horabuena
(Ora Buena)", were conversos. Gome was apparently Sancha's great-great
grandfather in the male line.
The article also states that Sancha's mother Ines de Ayala was "from
another important Jewish converso family who also had among her
ancestors high 'Old Christian' aristocracy". No source is given for
this statement.
Given the poor quality of this Wikipedia article I am doubtful Roth's
book makes any such claims but will be interested to see what is in it.
Speaking of the writings (ca. 1449) of Fernan Diaz de Toledo "a
converso counsellor and secretary of the king":
"Of great interest is Diaz's statement that "D. Juan Gomez,"
archbishop of Toledo, was a converso and son of a Jew (_judio_; read
perhaps _judia_?) of Toledo (246). No such name appears in any list of
the bishops of the city, and the only possibility seems to be the
archbishop Gutierre Gomez (1310-19), who was in fact the son of Gome
Perez, alguacil mayor of Toledo, and his wife Horabuena (Ora buena).
[ref. 25] That name is so exclusively Jewish in medieval Spain, and
particularly Toledo, that there can be little doubt as to her
background. The archbiship's brother, interestingly, was Fernand
Gomez, chancellor of Fernando IV and frequently involved with the Jew
Samuel who was in the service of that king. It happens that Fernan
Alvarez de Toledo (d. ca. 1460), the conde de Alba, was a nephew of
Gutierre Gomez and also of Inigo Lopez de Mendoza, which further
supports the possibility of the converso background of the
archbishop." p. 94-5
(This last appears to relate to the statement of the previous page,
referring to the writings of Lope de Barrientos, d. 1469: "Of great
significance is the list he gives of prominent Christian families who
have converso members or are of converso descent. This reads like a
veritable 'Who's Who' of Spanish nobility: the Manriques, Mendozas,
Rojas, Sarabias, Pimenteles, Lujanes, SOlis, Mirandas, Ororios,
Saucedos (Salcedos), and others, including relatives of Hurtado de
Mendoza, _mayordomo_ of the king, and the _mariscal_ Diego Fernandez
de Cordoba. p. 93)
[note 25] "Another remote possibility might be Gutierre Alvarez, also
called Gomez de Toledo, who was archbishop in 1442 and died in
1446. . . . Nevertheless, the strongest suspicion falls on Gutierre
Gomez, because both his mother's name and the relationship of the
family to other conversos, on which see Fernando de Pulgar, _Claros
varones_, ed. R. Brian Tate (Oxford, 1971, 87 n. 77)
So we have an argument based on three points. First, we have the
direct attestation, but using the wrong name. Second, we have the name
of the mother. The author provides no basis for his statement that
the name is exclusively Jewish. I have seen the name in Christian
families, but who knows, they might have descended from a conversa of
the same name. Finally we have the "related to a person who is
related to another person who is in a list of those "descended from or
related to" conversos. This last is of no value whatsoever. All in
all, it looks pretty poor to me.
That being said, the article makes several factual errors. First, Roth
in no way suggests that Gomez Perez himself was a converso, just his
wife. (In fact, Gomez Perez is almost certainly son of alguacil mayor
Pedro Suarez). Second, it calls him "Mayor" which was not his title.
Third, it uses the name Gomez de Toledo for the family, which with an
overdose of generosity could be called anachronistic, but is in
reality just plain wrong. Fourth, it relates that Ines de Ayala was a
converso, for which there is no evidence whatsoever (Roth, for
example, calls both her brother and nephew "old Castillian".) That is
apart from the inappropriateness of such a section, which provides
little understanding of the subject of the article, even were it
accurate.
Even if any of Sancha's ancestors in Toledo were converted Jews, they
would ordinarily not be called 'conversos', as this term is usually
understood to describe the forced converts of the era of persecution
after 1391.
Roth certainly uses it more broadly.
It is weird and misleading that Sancha de Ayala, who left
Spain before that date, got so heavily written into this bad wikipedia
article which misrepresents an important subject.
Misleading, yes, but not weird, at least by Wiki standards. Someone
descending from Sancha and lacking a sense of proportionality has
decided this is the place to go into a complete account of her descent
and descendants. Sort of par for the course for Wiki. Someone should
have deleted it years ago.
According to the most comprehensive local scholarship (e.g. stuff like
Javier Rodriquez Marquina, "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo," in
_Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias y Comunicaciones Presentadas al I
Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo 1975_ [Toledo,
1981]), Sancha de Ayala's father's ancestors in Toledo were a mixed bag
of Toledan families. Some were most likely Mozarabic
families--Christians who had been living under Muslim rule before the
annexation of Toledo by Alfonso VI. An example is Abdul Aziz ibn
Lampader, surely Sancha's ancestor, who was alcalde of the city in 1125.
. . . to be used with care. I am not entirely convinced that this
particular connection is authentic.
There is the possibility that some of these families may have been
Jewish. I think, but can't remember, that it may have been alleged that
Esteban Illan (Alcalde in 1166; d. 1208), probably Sancha's ancestor via
Diego Garcia, may have been the great-grandson of a converted Jew, but I
can't find this right now (I'm looking in Julio Porres Martin Cleto, "El
linaje de D. Esteban Illan," also in _Genealogias Mozarabes: Ponencias
..._, but don't find it).
Earliest ancestor is Pedro Juanez, IIRC. The problem is that the
conversos almost always adopted traditional Christian names in their
entirety, so names provide no guide whatsoever. This is a point
seemingly missed by some who look at every unusual name, such as
Illan, as evidence of converso origins.
The bottom line is that it is conventional to
say all the apparently native urban families who bore Muslim names in
the time of Alfonso VI were Mozarabic Christians, but some of them may
have been Jews. But in this early era (11th-early 12th c) there was no
organized persecution or forced conversion and the label 'Converso'
which connotes a distinct circumstance and era is simply wrong.
The situation is the same as with Muslim converts. There are almost
certainly numerous muslims in the pedigrees of the medieval spanish
families, but that is an entirely different conclusion than pointing
to a particular line and saying that this particular line is converso.
The latter requires proof.
Todd spent a great deal of time snooping in these Toledo families, and
maybe he has more to say on specific possibilities of real or alleged
Jewish ancestry.
I have seen a lot of vague claims, but with the exception of the one
above these appear simply in the form of bold-faced statements without
the slightest hint of their basis.
Turning to Sancha's mother's side I don't see any evidence or assertions
that the lords of Ayala or any allied family (Haro, Ceballos, Carrillo,
Osorio, etc.) have been identified as converted Jews.
For Osorio, see above. This brings up another problem. At what point
does a converso family cease to be conversos and just become part of
the culture. Even if there is a Jew somewhere back the pedigree, does
that make every descendant through every line a converso, after 25
generations or more? This is turning the pure blood standard on its
head. There is an undercurrent in such analyses that anyone with a
single Jewish ancestor, no matter how far back, is Jewish (also, by
the way, seen in the "Queen Elizabeth is African" claims that
frequently make their appearances).
Along these lines, Lope de Barrientos made the following observation,
(Roth, p. 93) ". . . since virtually all of the Jews in Visigothic
Spain converted to Christianity, who among the Christians of Spain
could be certain that he is not a descendant of those conversos
(197)?"
taf