Dear List Members,
This is my first posting and I'm a bit nervous about it. For about a
year I've been trying to make sense of the Rochechouart family (I live
nearby). But I'm getting in a pickle. For the moment I'm concentrating
on the consequences of the marriage between Aimery IX de Rochechouart
and Matilda (Maud) de Ferrers, widow of Simon de Kyme and William de
Fortibus de Vivonne.
French versions of the family mostly seem to derive from the work of
Général comte de Rochechouart, Histoire de la maison de Rochechouart,
tome II, 1859, "Documents divers ", p. 274 et suivantes. In an article
"Les premiers seigneurs de Tonnay-Charente de la famille de
Rochechouart" <http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm>
(1277-1393), Jacques Duguet writes that the General copied out a
manuscript written by a Benedictine monk, dom Villevieille, which
manuscript contained deeds held in the Rochechouart château till the
18th C. I've not been able to get a copy of the Histoire yet.
According to Dr. Adrien Gréziller (Histoire de Rochechouart, des
origines à la Révolution, Niort, 1989 2nd ed), dom Villevieille was
sent to Rochechouart by his Order to make an inventory of Rochechouart
in 1785. He made copies of family documents from 1027-1502 (Les
cahiers de Dom Villevieille, Bibliothèque Nationale) and the château
archives were destroyed during the Revolution.
According to Jaques Duguet, Aimery IX's 1st wife, Jeanne d'Angle de
Tonnay-Charente, died giving birth to her 8th child in January 1264.
Matilda had "at least" three young daughters from her marriage with
William de Fors de Vivonne. In fact there seem to have been four -
Joan, Sybil, Cecily and Mabel. It's the first two I'm concerned with
here.
Aimery IX and Matilda's marriage contract dated 28 April 1264
envisaged marriage between their two elder children. That is, Aimery X
would marry Jeanne (Joan), he would inherit Rochechouart and she would
inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of Carlton -
or any other English place name Duguet mentions). Guy (2nd son) would
marry Sibyl (2nd daughter) and inherit the lands of Mortemart. On 13
May the guardian of the two girls, Savari de Vivonne, transferred to
Aimery IX all the girls' rights in the castle and lands of Vivonne.
Jacques Duguet says the two marriages took place but the National
Archives only confirm the marriage of Guy and Sibyl, though he is
called de Rochechouart (Rochichechart) not Mortemart.
In 1283 Aimery IX made a will "before going abroad with the king of
France". From this it seems Aimery X was already dead, leaving two
young children, Aimery XI and Jeanne, in which case Joan de Vivonne is
their mother. Aimery XI was named as heir to Rochechouart. He died in
1306 (leaving a daughter, Jeanne, who married Pons? de Mortagne
d'Aunay) and Aimery X's younger brother Simon became viscount de
Rochechouart (Guy was missed out).
When I turn to English versions I find no confirmation of Joan's
marriage to Aimery X, only Ingram de Percy and Reginal FitzPiers. I've
tentatively figured that if de Percy died 1262, Aimery X in 1283, Joan
could have married FitzPiers before he died 1286.
I'd be very grateful for advice and help. Would it be impertinent to
marry Joan off according to French sources but without any evidence
from England. Could such a marriage could have taken place and be of
no interest in England - and vice versa. I'd really like to get the
marriage in if only because it could (as far as I can tell) be
possible, and without it the Rochechouart genealogy would be even more
full of holes than it already is. I'm also curious to understand the
relationships between these families if only because of the dreadful
conflicts and split loyalties to come during the 100 years' war.
yours
Margaret
Jeanne (Joan) de Vivonne and Aimery X de Rochechouart
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
CE Wood
Re: Jeanne (Joan) de Vivonne and Aimery X de Rochechouart
"she would inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of
Carlton - "
Location: Carlton, Nottinghamshire United Kingdom
Grid ref: SK616414
Postcode district: NG4 3xx (map centre)
X: 461700m
Y: 341400m
Lat: 52:58:00N (52.9667)
Lon: :05:00W (-1.0834)
CE Wood
On Jun 30, 1:14 am, Margaret <marschb...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Carlton - "
Location: Carlton, Nottinghamshire United Kingdom
Grid ref: SK616414
Postcode district: NG4 3xx (map centre)
X: 461700m
Y: 341400m
Lat: 52:58:00N (52.9667)
Lon: :05:00W (-1.0834)
CE Wood
On Jun 30, 1:14 am, Margaret <marschb...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Dear List Members,
This is my first posting and I'm a bit nervous about it. For about a
year I've been trying to make sense of the Rochechouart family (I live
nearby). But I'm getting in a pickle. For the moment I'm concentrating
on the consequences of the marriage between Aimery IX de Rochechouart
and Matilda (Maud) de Ferrers, widow of Simon de Kyme and William de
Fortibus de Vivonne.
French versions of the family mostly seem to derive from the work of
Général comte de Rochechouart, Histoire de la maison de Rochechouart,
tome II, 1859, "Documents divers ", p. 274 et suivantes. In an article
"Les premiers seigneurs de Tonnay-Charente de la famille de
Rochechouart" <http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm
(1277-1393), Jacques Duguet writes that the General copied out a
manuscript written by a Benedictine monk, dom Villevieille, which
manuscript contained deeds held in the Rochechouart château till the
18th C. I've not been able to get a copy of the Histoire yet.
According to Dr. Adrien Gréziller (Histoire de Rochechouart, des
origines à la Révolution, Niort, 1989 2nd ed), dom Villevieille was
sent to Rochechouart by his Order to make an inventory of Rochechouart
in 1785. He made copies of family documents from 1027-1502 (Les
cahiers de Dom Villevieille, Bibliothèque Nationale) and the château
archives were destroyed during the Revolution.
According to Jaques Duguet, Aimery IX's 1st wife, Jeanne d'Angle de
Tonnay-Charente, died giving birth to her 8th child in January 1264.
Matilda had "at least" three young daughters from her marriage with
William de Fors de Vivonne. In fact there seem to have been four -
Joan, Sybil, Cecily and Mabel. It's the first two I'm concerned with
here.
Aimery IX and Matilda's marriage contract dated 28 April 1264
envisaged marriage between their two elder children. That is, Aimery X
would marry Jeanne (Joan), he would inherit Rochechouart and she would
inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of Carlton -
or any other English place name Duguet mentions). Guy (2nd son) would
marry Sibyl (2nd daughter) and inherit the lands of Mortemart. On 13
May the guardian of the two girls, Savari de Vivonne, transferred to
Aimery IX all the girls' rights in the castle and lands of Vivonne.
Jacques Duguet says the two marriages took place but the National
Archives only confirm the marriage of Guy and Sibyl, though he is
called de Rochechouart (Rochichechart) not Mortemart.
In 1283 Aimery IX made a will "before going abroad with the king of
France". From this it seems Aimery X was already dead, leaving two
young children, Aimery XI and Jeanne, in which case Joan de Vivonne is
their mother. Aimery XI was named as heir to Rochechouart. He died in
1306 (leaving a daughter, Jeanne, who married Pons? de Mortagne
d'Aunay) and Aimery X's younger brother Simon became viscount de
Rochechouart (Guy was missed out).
When I turn to English versions I find no confirmation of Joan's
marriage to Aimery X, only Ingram de Percy and Reginal FitzPiers. I've
tentatively figured that if de Percy died 1262, Aimery X in 1283, Joan
could have married FitzPiers before he died 1286.
I'd be very grateful for advice and help. Would it be impertinent to
marry Joan off according to French sources but without any evidence
from England. Could such a marriage could have taken place and be of
no interest in England - and vice versa. I'd really like to get the
marriage in if only because it could (as far as I can tell) be
possible, and without it the Rochechouart genealogy would be even more
full of holes than it already is. I'm also curious to understand the
relationships between these families if only because of the dreadful
conflicts and split loyalties to come during the 100 years' war.
yours
Margaret
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Jeanne (Joan) de Vivonne and Aimery X de Rochechouart
Dear Margaret ~
The information below may be helpful to you. Maud de Ferrers's 2nd
husband was Sir William de Forz, Knt., of Chewton, Somerset.
Fortibus is the Latin form of Forz and should be avoided. Sir William
de Forz was never known as William de Vivonne, although his father,
uncle, brother, and daughters all used the surname, Vivonne.
Also, you appear to have confused Maud de Ferrers's daughter, Joan de
Vivonne, wife of Ingram de Percy and Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., with
that of Maud's younger daughter, Jeanne de Rochechouart, wife of Pons
de Mortagne, Vicomte of Aunay.
I'm certain of the the four Vivonne daughters of Maud de Ferrers and
their marriages. I'm less certain of Maud's issue by her third
husband, Amaury IX de Rochechouart, Knt., Vicomte of Rochechouart (in
Haute Vienne) in Poitou. If you find further particulars of Aumary IX
and Maud's issue, I'd be grateful to have them. As noted below,
Amaury IX de Rochechouart was a near kinsman of King Henry III of
England. As an adult, Maud de Ferrers occurs in English records as
Maud de Kyme, from her first marriage to Simon de Kyme.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), plus
additions.
1. WILLIAM DE FORZ, Knt., of Chewton, Compton Dundon, Midsomer Norton,
Shepton Mallet, Sutton Mallet, Welton, etc., Somerset, Dullingham,
Cambridgeshire, Kilve, Somerset, Woodmansterne, Surrey, Fisheton de la
Mare, Wiltshire, etc., seigneur of Vivonne in Poitou. He inherited
one-half of the barony of Curry-Mallet, Somerset. He married about 30
July 1248 MAUD DE FERRERS (generally known as MAUD DE KYME), widow of
Simon de Kyme, of Sotby and Croft, Lincolnshire (died shortly before
30 July 1248), and daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby,
by Sibyl, 3rd daughter of William Marshal, Knt., 4th Earl of Pembroke
(or Striguil), hereditary Master Marshal. She was born about 1230.
Maud was co-heiress to her mother, by which she inherited the manor of
Carbury, co. Kildare, Ireland, a third part of the seal of the
chancery of co. Kildare, Ireland, and a one-seventh share of her
mother's one tenth share in the barony of Long Crendon,
Buckinghamshire. They had four daughters, Joan, Mabel, Sibyl, and
Cecily. In 1249 he and his first cousin, Nicholas Poyntz, were asked
to warrant John de la Stane ½ knight's fee in Wiltshire. The same
year he reached agreement regarding the dower of his grandfather,
William Malet's widow, Alice Basset. In 1252 the king confirmed his
demise of the manors of Chewton, Compton Dundon, Midsomer Norton,
Shepton Mallet, and Welton, Somerset to the Abbot and convent of St.
Augustine, Bristol until the abbot and convent receive £224 which they
borrowed from some foreign merchants for his use. In 1255 he made
homage to the Abbot of Glastonbury for 10 knights' fees. SIR WILLIAM
DE FORZ died shortly before 22 May 1259. His widow, Maud, married
(3rd) after 6 Jan. 1263 and before 4 Feb. 1267 (as his 2nd wife)
Amaury IX de Rochechouart, Knt., Vicomte of Rochechouart (in Haute
Vienne) in Poitou, seigneur of La Cossière-en-Périgord, Brigueil-
l'Aine, Mas-de-Gegelar, Pérusse, etc., son and heir of Amaury VIII de
Rochechouart, Vicomte of Rochechouart, by Marguerite de Limoges. They
had one son, Guillaume (clerk) [Canon of Limoges and Bourges], and six
daughters, Marguerite (wife of Arnaud Bochard), Agnès (wife of Pierre
d'Analhac), Isabelle, Jeanne (wife of Pons de Mortagne, Vicomte of
Aunay), Anelide, and Marquise. Sir Amaury de Rochechouart, Vicomte of
Rochechouart, died in Dec. 1288, and was buried at Terzay. He left a
will dated 25 June 1283. His widow, Maud, died 12 March 1298/9.
Children of William de Forz, Knt., by Maud de Ferrers:
i. JOAN DE VIVONNE, married (1st) INGRAM DE PERCY; (2nd) REYNOLD FITZ
PETER, Knt., of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Breconshire.
ii. MABEL DE VIVONNE, married FULK D'ARCHIAC, seigneur of Archiac in
Saintonge, and, in right of his wife, of Woodmansterne, Surrey. They
had two sons, Aymer and Foucard. His wife, Mabel, died before 1 Nov.
1299. References: Cal. of Docs. Rel. Ireland 4 (1881): 320. Pipe
Roll for 1295 Surrey Membrane (Surrey Rec. Soc. 21) (1924): 45.
iii. SIBYL DE VIVONNE, married GUY DE ROCHECHOUART, seigneur of La
Pérusse, Salagnac, and Tonnay-Charente, and in right of his wife,
seigneur of Vivonne in Poitou. They were both living 1 Nov. 1299.
References: Cartulaire de l'Évêché de Poitiers 1 (Archives Historiques
du Poitou 10) (1881): 364. Cal. of Docs. Rel. Ireland 4 (1881): 275.
Martin, Hist. et Gen. de la Maison de Rochechouart (1990).
iv. CECILY DE VIVONNE, married JOHN DE BEAUCHAMP, Knt., of Hatch
Beauchamp, Somerset.
References:
Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 4 (1726): 649-654 (sub
Rochechouart).
William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5 (1825): 270 (Abbey of Tinturn-
Lacy Genealogy: "Quarta filia dicti Willielmi Marescalli, vocabatur
Sibilla, et nupta fuit Willielmo de Ferrers comiti Derbiæ, de qua
procreatæ fuere septem filiæ. Quarum prima vocabatur Agnes, secunda
Isabella, tertia Matilda, quarta Sibilla, quinta Johanna, sexta
Alianora, septima Agatha. Matylda de Kyme, tertia filia, nupta
Almarico de Rupe-Edwardi, de quibus Johanna de Vynon [recte Vivonia],
Cecilia de Bellocampo, Sibilla nupta Almarico de Archiaks in
Piganra.").
Coll. Top. & Gen. 7 (1841): 146-147.
C.Ch.R. 1 (1895):386. Somersetshire Pleas 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 11)
(1897): 380-382.
Cal. IPMs 1 (1904): 298; 3 (1912): 400-401.
List of Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer (PRO Lists and
Indexes 15) (1902): 355.
List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 17) (1904):
106.
Report on MSS in Various Colls. 4 (Hist. MSS Comm. 55) (1907): 101.
C.P.R. 1247-1258 (1908): 23.
Weaver, Feodary of Glastonbury Abbey (Somerset Rec. Soc. 26) (1910):
59-63.
VCH Surrey 4 (1912): 247-248.
C.P. 2 (1912): 48 (sub Beauchamp); 4 (1916): 199; 10 (1945): 364,
footnote a (sub Pembroke).
Pipe Roll for 1295 Surrey Membrane (Surrey Rec. Soc. 21) (1924): 45.
Moor, Knights of Edward I 1 (H.S.P. 80) (1929): 80; 4 (H.S.P. 83)
(1931): 156.
Somersetshire Pleas 4(1) (Somerset Rec. Soc. 44) (1929): 145, 254,
282, 305, 344-345, 350, 359-362.
C.Cl.R. 1253-1254 (1929): 246 (Aumary de Rochechouart, vicomte of
Rochechouart, styled "king's kinsman" by King Henry III of England).
Cam, The Hundred & Hundred Rolls (1930): 278. Watkin Great Chartulary
of Glastonbury 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 59) (1947): 234-235.
Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 38-39, 62-64, 79-80. VCH Wiltshire
8 (1965): 34-46.
Tremlett, Rolls of Arms Henry III (H.S.P 113-4) (1967): 153 (arms of
William de Forz de Vivonne: Argent a chief gules).
Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc.
26) (1971): 83, 102-103, 120, 157.
VCH Somerset 3 (1974): 157-158; 5 (1985): 97-98; 8 (2004): 184-190.
VCH Cambridge 6 (1978): 159-160.
London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35)
(1979): 120 (charter of William de Forz).
Adams, Select Cases from Ecclesiastical Courts of Canterbury 1200-1301
(Selden Soc. 95) (1981): 441-448.
Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln 3(4) (1984): 777 (sub
Rouchechouart).
Martin, Hist. et Gen. de la Maison de Rochechouart (1990).
Curia Regis Rolls 19 (2002): 342-343 (Gilbert Malet styled ancestor
["antecessoris"] of William de Forz), 385, 409-410.
On Jun 30, 2:14 am, Margaret <marschb...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
< Dear List Members,
< This is my first posting and I'm a bit nervous about it. For about a
< year I've been trying to make sense of the Rochechouart family (I
live
< nearby). But I'm getting in a pickle. For the moment I'm
concentrating
< on the consequences of the marriage between Aimery IX de
Rochechouart
< and Matilda (Maud) de Ferrers, widow of Simon de Kyme and William de
< Fortibus de Vivonne.
<
< French versions of the family mostly seem to derive from the work of
< Général comte de Rochechouart, Histoire de la maison de
Rochechouart,
< tome II, 1859, "Documents divers ", p. 274 et suivantes. In an
article
< "Les premiers seigneurs de Tonnay-Charente de la famille de
< Rochechouart" <http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm>
< (1277-1393), Jacques Duguet writes that the General copied out a
< manuscript written by a Benedictine monk, dom Villevieille, which
< manuscript contained deeds held in the Rochechouart château till the
< 18th C. I've not been able to get a copy of the Histoire yet.
< According to Dr. Adrien Gréziller (Histoire de Rochechouart, des
< origines à la Révolution, Niort, 1989 2nd ed), dom Villevieille was
< sent to Rochechouart by his Order to make an inventory of
Rochechouart
< in 1785. He made copies of family documents from 1027-1502 (Les
< cahiers de Dom Villevieille, Bibliothèque Nationale) and the château
< archives were destroyed during the Revolution.
<
< According to Jaques Duguet, Aimery IX's 1st wife, Jeanne d'Angle de
< Tonnay-Charente, died giving birth to her 8th child in January 1264.
< Matilda had "at least" three young daughters from her marriage with
< William de Fors de Vivonne. In fact there seem to have been four -
< Joan, Sybil, Cecily and Mabel. It's the first two I'm concerned with
< here.
<
< Aimery IX and Matilda's marriage contract dated 28 April 1264
< envisaged marriage between their two elder children. That is, Aimery
X
< would marry Jeanne (Joan), he would inherit Rochechouart and she
would
< inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of Carlton
-
< or any other English place name Duguet mentions). Guy (2nd son)
would
< marry Sibyl (2nd daughter) and inherit the lands of Mortemart. On 13
< May the guardian of the two girls, Savari de Vivonne, transferred to
< Aimery IX all the girls' rights in the castle and lands of Vivonne.
< Jacques Duguet says the two marriages took place but the National
< Archives only confirm the marriage of Guy and Sibyl, though he is
< called de Rochechouart (Rochichechart) not Mortemart.
<
< In 1283 Aimery IX made a will "before going abroad with the king of
< France". From this it seems Aimery X was already dead, leaving two
< young children, Aimery XI and Jeanne, in which case Joan de Vivonne
is
< their mother. Aimery XI was named as heir to Rochechouart. He died
in
< 1306 (leaving a daughter, Jeanne, who married Pons? de Mortagne
< d'Aunay) and Aimery X's younger brother Simon became viscount de
< Rochechouart (Guy was missed out).
<
< When I turn to English versions I find no confirmation of Joan's
< marriage to Aimery X, only Ingram de Percy and Reginal FitzPiers.
I've
< tentatively figured that if de Percy died 1262, Aimery X in 1283,
Joan
< could have married FitzPiers before he died 1286.
<
< I'd be very grateful for advice and help. Would it be impertinent to
< marry Joan off according to French sources but without any evidence
< from England. Could such a marriage could have taken place and be of
< no interest in England - and vice versa. I'd really like to get the
< marriage in if only because it could (as far as I can tell) be
< possible, and without it the Rochechouart genealogy would be even
more
< full of holes than it already is. I'm also curious to understand the
< relationships between these families if only because of the dreadful
< conflicts and split loyalties to come during the 100 years' war.
<
< yours
< Margaret
The information below may be helpful to you. Maud de Ferrers's 2nd
husband was Sir William de Forz, Knt., of Chewton, Somerset.
Fortibus is the Latin form of Forz and should be avoided. Sir William
de Forz was never known as William de Vivonne, although his father,
uncle, brother, and daughters all used the surname, Vivonne.
Also, you appear to have confused Maud de Ferrers's daughter, Joan de
Vivonne, wife of Ingram de Percy and Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt., with
that of Maud's younger daughter, Jeanne de Rochechouart, wife of Pons
de Mortagne, Vicomte of Aunay.
I'm certain of the the four Vivonne daughters of Maud de Ferrers and
their marriages. I'm less certain of Maud's issue by her third
husband, Amaury IX de Rochechouart, Knt., Vicomte of Rochechouart (in
Haute Vienne) in Poitou. If you find further particulars of Aumary IX
and Maud's issue, I'd be grateful to have them. As noted below,
Amaury IX de Rochechouart was a near kinsman of King Henry III of
England. As an adult, Maud de Ferrers occurs in English records as
Maud de Kyme, from her first marriage to Simon de Kyme.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), plus
additions.
1. WILLIAM DE FORZ, Knt., of Chewton, Compton Dundon, Midsomer Norton,
Shepton Mallet, Sutton Mallet, Welton, etc., Somerset, Dullingham,
Cambridgeshire, Kilve, Somerset, Woodmansterne, Surrey, Fisheton de la
Mare, Wiltshire, etc., seigneur of Vivonne in Poitou. He inherited
one-half of the barony of Curry-Mallet, Somerset. He married about 30
July 1248 MAUD DE FERRERS (generally known as MAUD DE KYME), widow of
Simon de Kyme, of Sotby and Croft, Lincolnshire (died shortly before
30 July 1248), and daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby,
by Sibyl, 3rd daughter of William Marshal, Knt., 4th Earl of Pembroke
(or Striguil), hereditary Master Marshal. She was born about 1230.
Maud was co-heiress to her mother, by which she inherited the manor of
Carbury, co. Kildare, Ireland, a third part of the seal of the
chancery of co. Kildare, Ireland, and a one-seventh share of her
mother's one tenth share in the barony of Long Crendon,
Buckinghamshire. They had four daughters, Joan, Mabel, Sibyl, and
Cecily. In 1249 he and his first cousin, Nicholas Poyntz, were asked
to warrant John de la Stane ½ knight's fee in Wiltshire. The same
year he reached agreement regarding the dower of his grandfather,
William Malet's widow, Alice Basset. In 1252 the king confirmed his
demise of the manors of Chewton, Compton Dundon, Midsomer Norton,
Shepton Mallet, and Welton, Somerset to the Abbot and convent of St.
Augustine, Bristol until the abbot and convent receive £224 which they
borrowed from some foreign merchants for his use. In 1255 he made
homage to the Abbot of Glastonbury for 10 knights' fees. SIR WILLIAM
DE FORZ died shortly before 22 May 1259. His widow, Maud, married
(3rd) after 6 Jan. 1263 and before 4 Feb. 1267 (as his 2nd wife)
Amaury IX de Rochechouart, Knt., Vicomte of Rochechouart (in Haute
Vienne) in Poitou, seigneur of La Cossière-en-Périgord, Brigueil-
l'Aine, Mas-de-Gegelar, Pérusse, etc., son and heir of Amaury VIII de
Rochechouart, Vicomte of Rochechouart, by Marguerite de Limoges. They
had one son, Guillaume (clerk) [Canon of Limoges and Bourges], and six
daughters, Marguerite (wife of Arnaud Bochard), Agnès (wife of Pierre
d'Analhac), Isabelle, Jeanne (wife of Pons de Mortagne, Vicomte of
Aunay), Anelide, and Marquise. Sir Amaury de Rochechouart, Vicomte of
Rochechouart, died in Dec. 1288, and was buried at Terzay. He left a
will dated 25 June 1283. His widow, Maud, died 12 March 1298/9.
Children of William de Forz, Knt., by Maud de Ferrers:
i. JOAN DE VIVONNE, married (1st) INGRAM DE PERCY; (2nd) REYNOLD FITZ
PETER, Knt., of Blaen Llyfni (in Cathedine), Breconshire.
ii. MABEL DE VIVONNE, married FULK D'ARCHIAC, seigneur of Archiac in
Saintonge, and, in right of his wife, of Woodmansterne, Surrey. They
had two sons, Aymer and Foucard. His wife, Mabel, died before 1 Nov.
1299. References: Cal. of Docs. Rel. Ireland 4 (1881): 320. Pipe
Roll for 1295 Surrey Membrane (Surrey Rec. Soc. 21) (1924): 45.
iii. SIBYL DE VIVONNE, married GUY DE ROCHECHOUART, seigneur of La
Pérusse, Salagnac, and Tonnay-Charente, and in right of his wife,
seigneur of Vivonne in Poitou. They were both living 1 Nov. 1299.
References: Cartulaire de l'Évêché de Poitiers 1 (Archives Historiques
du Poitou 10) (1881): 364. Cal. of Docs. Rel. Ireland 4 (1881): 275.
Martin, Hist. et Gen. de la Maison de Rochechouart (1990).
iv. CECILY DE VIVONNE, married JOHN DE BEAUCHAMP, Knt., of Hatch
Beauchamp, Somerset.
References:
Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 4 (1726): 649-654 (sub
Rochechouart).
William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5 (1825): 270 (Abbey of Tinturn-
Lacy Genealogy: "Quarta filia dicti Willielmi Marescalli, vocabatur
Sibilla, et nupta fuit Willielmo de Ferrers comiti Derbiæ, de qua
procreatæ fuere septem filiæ. Quarum prima vocabatur Agnes, secunda
Isabella, tertia Matilda, quarta Sibilla, quinta Johanna, sexta
Alianora, septima Agatha. Matylda de Kyme, tertia filia, nupta
Almarico de Rupe-Edwardi, de quibus Johanna de Vynon [recte Vivonia],
Cecilia de Bellocampo, Sibilla nupta Almarico de Archiaks in
Piganra.").
Coll. Top. & Gen. 7 (1841): 146-147.
C.Ch.R. 1 (1895):386. Somersetshire Pleas 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 11)
(1897): 380-382.
Cal. IPMs 1 (1904): 298; 3 (1912): 400-401.
List of Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer (PRO Lists and
Indexes 15) (1902): 355.
List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 17) (1904):
106.
Report on MSS in Various Colls. 4 (Hist. MSS Comm. 55) (1907): 101.
C.P.R. 1247-1258 (1908): 23.
Weaver, Feodary of Glastonbury Abbey (Somerset Rec. Soc. 26) (1910):
59-63.
VCH Surrey 4 (1912): 247-248.
C.P. 2 (1912): 48 (sub Beauchamp); 4 (1916): 199; 10 (1945): 364,
footnote a (sub Pembroke).
Pipe Roll for 1295 Surrey Membrane (Surrey Rec. Soc. 21) (1924): 45.
Moor, Knights of Edward I 1 (H.S.P. 80) (1929): 80; 4 (H.S.P. 83)
(1931): 156.
Somersetshire Pleas 4(1) (Somerset Rec. Soc. 44) (1929): 145, 254,
282, 305, 344-345, 350, 359-362.
C.Cl.R. 1253-1254 (1929): 246 (Aumary de Rochechouart, vicomte of
Rochechouart, styled "king's kinsman" by King Henry III of England).
Cam, The Hundred & Hundred Rolls (1930): 278. Watkin Great Chartulary
of Glastonbury 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 59) (1947): 234-235.
Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 38-39, 62-64, 79-80. VCH Wiltshire
8 (1965): 34-46.
Tremlett, Rolls of Arms Henry III (H.S.P 113-4) (1967): 153 (arms of
William de Forz de Vivonne: Argent a chief gules).
Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc.
26) (1971): 83, 102-103, 120, 157.
VCH Somerset 3 (1974): 157-158; 5 (1985): 97-98; 8 (2004): 184-190.
VCH Cambridge 6 (1978): 159-160.
London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35)
(1979): 120 (charter of William de Forz).
Adams, Select Cases from Ecclesiastical Courts of Canterbury 1200-1301
(Selden Soc. 95) (1981): 441-448.
Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln 3(4) (1984): 777 (sub
Rouchechouart).
Martin, Hist. et Gen. de la Maison de Rochechouart (1990).
Curia Regis Rolls 19 (2002): 342-343 (Gilbert Malet styled ancestor
["antecessoris"] of William de Forz), 385, 409-410.
On Jun 30, 2:14 am, Margaret <marschb...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
< Dear List Members,
< This is my first posting and I'm a bit nervous about it. For about a
< year I've been trying to make sense of the Rochechouart family (I
live
< nearby). But I'm getting in a pickle. For the moment I'm
concentrating
< on the consequences of the marriage between Aimery IX de
Rochechouart
< and Matilda (Maud) de Ferrers, widow of Simon de Kyme and William de
< Fortibus de Vivonne.
<
< French versions of the family mostly seem to derive from the work of
< Général comte de Rochechouart, Histoire de la maison de
Rochechouart,
< tome II, 1859, "Documents divers ", p. 274 et suivantes. In an
article
< "Les premiers seigneurs de Tonnay-Charente de la famille de
< Rochechouart" <http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm>
< (1277-1393), Jacques Duguet writes that the General copied out a
< manuscript written by a Benedictine monk, dom Villevieille, which
< manuscript contained deeds held in the Rochechouart château till the
< 18th C. I've not been able to get a copy of the Histoire yet.
< According to Dr. Adrien Gréziller (Histoire de Rochechouart, des
< origines à la Révolution, Niort, 1989 2nd ed), dom Villevieille was
< sent to Rochechouart by his Order to make an inventory of
Rochechouart
< in 1785. He made copies of family documents from 1027-1502 (Les
< cahiers de Dom Villevieille, Bibliothèque Nationale) and the château
< archives were destroyed during the Revolution.
<
< According to Jaques Duguet, Aimery IX's 1st wife, Jeanne d'Angle de
< Tonnay-Charente, died giving birth to her 8th child in January 1264.
< Matilda had "at least" three young daughters from her marriage with
< William de Fors de Vivonne. In fact there seem to have been four -
< Joan, Sybil, Cecily and Mabel. It's the first two I'm concerned with
< here.
<
< Aimery IX and Matilda's marriage contract dated 28 April 1264
< envisaged marriage between their two elder children. That is, Aimery
X
< would marry Jeanne (Joan), he would inherit Rochechouart and she
would
< inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of Carlton
-
< or any other English place name Duguet mentions). Guy (2nd son)
would
< marry Sibyl (2nd daughter) and inherit the lands of Mortemart. On 13
< May the guardian of the two girls, Savari de Vivonne, transferred to
< Aimery IX all the girls' rights in the castle and lands of Vivonne.
< Jacques Duguet says the two marriages took place but the National
< Archives only confirm the marriage of Guy and Sibyl, though he is
< called de Rochechouart (Rochichechart) not Mortemart.
<
< In 1283 Aimery IX made a will "before going abroad with the king of
< France". From this it seems Aimery X was already dead, leaving two
< young children, Aimery XI and Jeanne, in which case Joan de Vivonne
is
< their mother. Aimery XI was named as heir to Rochechouart. He died
in
< 1306 (leaving a daughter, Jeanne, who married Pons? de Mortagne
< d'Aunay) and Aimery X's younger brother Simon became viscount de
< Rochechouart (Guy was missed out).
<
< When I turn to English versions I find no confirmation of Joan's
< marriage to Aimery X, only Ingram de Percy and Reginal FitzPiers.
I've
< tentatively figured that if de Percy died 1262, Aimery X in 1283,
Joan
< could have married FitzPiers before he died 1286.
<
< I'd be very grateful for advice and help. Would it be impertinent to
< marry Joan off according to French sources but without any evidence
< from England. Could such a marriage could have taken place and be of
< no interest in England - and vice versa. I'd really like to get the
< marriage in if only because it could (as far as I can tell) be
< possible, and without it the Rochechouart genealogy would be even
more
< full of holes than it already is. I'm also curious to understand the
< relationships between these families if only because of the dreadful
< conflicts and split loyalties to come during the 100 years' war.
<
< yours
< Margaret
-
Margaret
Re: Jeanne (Joan) de Vivonne and Aimery X de Rochechouart
On Jun 30, 6:18 pm, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
Hello
Many thanks. I'm glad it does exist. What I meant was I couldn't find
any trace of it in the National Archives. I had hoped such trace could
help pin a marriage down between Aimery X and Jeanne if it had taken
place.
yours
Margaret
"she would inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of
Carlton - "
Location: Carlton, Nottinghamshire United Kingdom
Grid ref: SK616414
Postcode district: NG4 3xx (map centre)
X: 461700m
Y: 341400m
Lat: 52:58:00N (52.9667)
Lon: :05:00W (-1.0834)
CE Wood
On Jun 30, 1:14 am, Margaret <marschb...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Dear List Members,
This is my first posting and I'm a bit nervous about it. For about a
year I've been trying to make sense of the Rochechouart family (I live
nearby). But I'm getting in a pickle. For the moment I'm concentrating
on the consequences of the marriage between Aimery IX de Rochechouart
and Matilda (Maud) de Ferrers, widow of Simon de Kyme and William de
Fortibus de Vivonne.
French versions of the family mostly seem to derive from the work of
Général comte de Rochechouart, Histoire de la maison de Rochechouart,
tome II, 1859, "Documents divers ", p. 274 et suivantes. In an article
"Les premiers seigneurs de Tonnay-Charente de la famille de
Rochechouart" <http://seucaj.ifrance.com/rochechouart.htm
(1277-1393), Jacques Duguet writes that the General copied out a
manuscript written by a Benedictine monk, dom Villevieille, which
manuscript contained deeds held in the Rochechouart château till the
18th C. I've not been able to get a copy of the Histoire yet.
According to Dr. Adrien Gréziller (Histoire de Rochechouart, des
origines à la Révolution, Niort, 1989 2nd ed), dom Villevieille was
sent to Rochechouart by his Order to make an inventory of Rochechouart
in 1785. He made copies of family documents from 1027-1502 (Les
cahiers de Dom Villevieille, Bibliothèque Nationale) and the château
archives were destroyed during the Revolution.
According to Jaques Duguet, Aimery IX's 1st wife, Jeanne d'Angle de
Tonnay-Charente, died giving birth to her 8th child in January 1264.
Matilda had "at least" three young daughters from her marriage with
William de Fors de Vivonne. In fact there seem to have been four -
Joan, Sybil, Cecily and Mabel. It's the first two I'm concerned with
here.
Aimery IX and Matilda's marriage contract dated 28 April 1264
envisaged marriage between their two elder children. That is, Aimery X
would marry Jeanne (Joan), he would inherit Rochechouart and she would
inherit Carlton, Nottinghamshire (I can't find any trace of Carlton -
or any other English place name Duguet mentions). Guy (2nd son) would
marry Sibyl (2nd daughter) and inherit the lands of Mortemart. On 13
May the guardian of the two girls, Savari de Vivonne, transferred to
Aimery IX all the girls' rights in the castle and lands of Vivonne.
Jacques Duguet says the two marriages took place but the National
Archives only confirm the marriage of Guy and Sibyl, though he is
called de Rochechouart (Rochichechart) not Mortemart.
In 1283 Aimery IX made a will "before going abroad with the king of
France". From this it seems Aimery X was already dead, leaving two
young children, Aimery XI and Jeanne, in which case Joan de Vivonne is
their mother. Aimery XI was named as heir to Rochechouart. He died in
1306 (leaving a daughter, Jeanne, who married Pons? de Mortagne
d'Aunay) and Aimery X's younger brother Simon became viscount de
Rochechouart (Guy was missed out).
When I turn to English versions I find no confirmation of Joan's
marriage to Aimery X, only Ingram de Percy and Reginal FitzPiers. I've
tentatively figured that if de Percy died 1262, Aimery X in 1283, Joan
could have married FitzPiers before he died 1286.
I'd be very grateful for advice and help. Would it be impertinent to
marry Joan off according to French sources but without any evidence
from England. Could such a marriage could have taken place and be of
no interest in England - and vice versa. I'd really like to get the
marriage in if only because it could (as far as I can tell) be
possible, and without it the Rochechouart genealogy would be even more
full of holes than it already is. I'm also curious to understand the
relationships between these families if only because of the dreadful
conflicts and split loyalties to come during the 100 years' war.
yours
Margaret
Hello
Many thanks. I'm glad it does exist. What I meant was I couldn't find
any trace of it in the National Archives. I had hoped such trace could
help pin a marriage down between Aimery X and Jeanne if it had taken
place.
yours
Margaret
-
Henry Soszynski
Re: Pons de MORTAGNE & Jeanne de ROCHECHOUART
On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:35:24 +0200, "Don McArthur"
<donmac@netactive.co.za> wrote:
parents of Pons II married to Claire de Lezay.
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=228963
The source they give is B-F: Aunay + HG 1985 p 230 , whatever that is.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski
<donmac@netactive.co.za> wrote:
This has caused me to look into this line, and the result is confusion!
Who are the parents of Marguerite de MORTAGNE who married Jean de CLERMONT??
Two main possibilities:-
Pons de MORTAGNE & Claire de LEZAY
Or
Geoffroy de MORTAGNE [dvp?, son of Pons & Jeanne de ROCHECHOUART] & Jeanne
d'AMBOISE.
The position of Jeanne de ROCHECHOUART seems to be in doubt. Douglas is
saying she was the daughter of Aimery IX by 2nd wife Maude FERRERS.
She is also given as dau of Aimery X by Jean de VIVONNE [dau of Wm FORZ by
above Maude FERRERS. <www.maison-de-rabaine.eu/spip.php?article103> No idea
if this site is any good!
Were there two Pons de MORTAGNEs, or is it the same chap married to two
wives, with no doubt Claire de LEZAY being 2nd.
Regards,
Don McArthur.
FWIW The roglo database gives Pons I and Jeanne de Rochechouart as the
parents of Pons II married to Claire de Lezay.
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=228963
The source they give is B-F: Aunay + HG 1985 p 230 , whatever that is.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski